Its a strange new world
- Thread starter Bluebaron
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OK, I was having trouble with your attitudes and assumed privilege around Alice's body, but now I am having trouble with Honey's assumed ownership of your body. She's off having frequent meetings with her new lover while you're away on business, and yet she think she gets to tell you how you can share your body?
It doesn't work that way. There is no "permission" in fair and equal ethical polyamory. She is not in authority over you. You are not in authority over her. Neither of you owns the others' body, mind, soul or time. You are equals. You may or may not give consent to how the other prefers to share themselves with others.
Negotiations can be made. One penis policies are often preferred by men who feel threatened by their wife/female partner who wants to be Open. That is not ethical, and reeks of patriarchal attitude. But just the same, no wife gets to tell her hetero husband that she can explore her gay side, but he can't explore his desire for any gender he is attracted to.
That said, some poly people do prefer monogamous partners. It is easier to explore oneself than to see one's partner start to explore others. But it's up to you to agree or not agree to be this mono partner. And you're not going to start having sex with men (or say, transwomen or gender non-binary folks) if you're not bisexual or pansexual.
Well, OK, then. If she really desires you and isn't just offering you "pity fucks," it sounds fine. However, while what you want from Alice is not "all about sex," it definitely is partly about sex!
You think you "need" sex with another woman other than your wife? How did you get along your whole marriage until now, and all of a sudden you "need" more sex with other women?
You won't have a good experience "telling Honey to call it off." That is called a veto, and even if you two agreed to have one way back when you first consented to her exploring her gay side (years ago)-- vetoes don't work.
You can't "tell" her what to do, since you are not in authority to her. You are her equal. You can only request it. She can refuse. You can then leave her.
Conversely, if she gets upset that you are asking her to choose, or you'll leave her, she may panic and agree to break up, and in that process, her heart will break, as will Alice's heart, making them both resent you forever.
I think what I 'Need' is to feel connected to the Triad, yes sex is a part of it but not in totality.
Im just finishing reading 'More Than Two: A Practical Guide to Ethical Polyamory', All in all a good read. interesting that I seem to find myself in something by default that many folk spend years trying to achieve.
Yes it has its faults but the more I read and listen to others, such as you lovely folk, the more I realise that what I have got it pretty good and I need to enjoy it for what it is.
Thanks Again.
So what happens if that doesn't work? If you still "feel connected" to Honey but not to Alice? If there are two dyads instead of a triad?
Is it actually a need for you? Do Honey and Alice know you will want to pull the plug if they don't keep you involved? That feels kind of gross to me.
LBeyond
New member
I'm not sure how this compares with your situation BB, but when my wife and I tried to allow for her bisexual exploration, we went into it with some fairly precise terms... We attempted the triad because a few reasons: she was attracted to women, I am not a woman, neither of us wanted a V, and I am not attracted to men. It certainly led to us biding quite a bit of time before approaching anyone else about it, and I can imagine there was a ton of chance that we found someone looking for the same kind of arrangement we were.
The three of you have already dove right into triad territory, and while that may not be something everyone expected or wanted right off the bat, it does seem like everyone enjoys that aspect of the relationship to some extent. Policing your own jealousy and continued efforts by all involved to show compassion to each other, I think, could take the relationship a long way. While I can agree with Mag that Honey's possessiveness isn't a good thing, I would caution over opening the relationship up even further. That will only complicate things, and if things may be a bit rocky now, adding any more jealousy or new perspectives to the mix can lead to some huge fallout.
I don't want you to think shrugging your shoulders and saying, "Well, it's better than some people go through" is a conclusive way to resolve your inner conflict. It can give you the heart you need for a bit of patience to continue seeing how things evolve, and as I said before, if there is progress (however small) it means the three of you are all trying. That, above anything else, says a ton about everyone involved, and should help get rid of any pointed anger/frustration that is building up from the process itself.
I hope it works out for you. I do have an old (online) friend, a woman who has been "dating" a married MF couple for years. I think they meet 1-4 times a month, depending on how busy they are. My friend is bi, but prefers women. What happens is, they do the threeway sex thing, the guy poops out early, and the women go on enjoying themselves into the wee hours. lol
Hi All,
I thought I would update you in what's been happening.
So at the beginning of January it became clear that we all had different 'wants' and expectations.
I sat down with Alice and explained what I wanted and what I expected. (I guess the difference being that if I felt I didn't get what I wanted I would be disappointed but if I didn't get what I expected then annoyed). As such we reached an understanding where by I knew what to expect moving forward. Basically this meant that Alice and Honey would carry on seeing each other as a two and we would socialise as a three and be intimate as a three twice a month).
TBH it felt a bit clinical laying it out there but Alice didn't want me to get disappointed and I wanted her to know what my expectations of a Triad relationship were.
This worked well until the end of January when we went away together for a long weekend to Amsterdam (the sex capital of Europe) We all had a great time and I went to work straight away for a week and on return Alice requested another 'sit down'.
It turns out that she felt it harder and harder to control her Jealousy over me and Honey and she wasn't expecting it to get that way. She also said that she was finding the sex with me (a man) hard and that she probably couldn't do it for much longer. As such she asked me to basically carry on as before with no sex.
Over a few days I took this onboard and realised that I was being asked to basically be my wife's girlfriends's best mate. I felt like I had been 'friend-zoned' by her when I want to be on a girlfriend level.
I decided that it would probably be best if I pulled out altogether as I felt that being with them and watching her be so close to Honey without being a part of it was too much.
They were both very upset particularly Honey who said that this was supposed to be about us as a three and now I was pulling out she felt bad etc etc. This then snowballed to effect her and Alice's relationship as she could see how upset Honey was.
So after a week or so Alice came back to me and asked if I could forget it all and go back to how we were before.
I was now totally confused. How can Alice now want to have sex with me again when she said she didn't want to anymore? So all the old arguments came up about how I felt she was only sleeping with me to be with Honey etc etc and she reassured me she would not be doing something she didn't want to if she didn't want to.
So here we are back on good terms and having fun. We've slept together once since the Amsterdam trip and it was all good and Alice and Honey professed to having a great time .
They continue to see each other very regularly, Alice tends to come over for 2-3 nights a week when I'm away and 2 odd nights when I'm here (although sex is only twice a month)
I know Alice continually says to Honey how she wishes it could be just the two of them but she knows an excepts the situation. (which again makes me feel shit) But when we are together as a three she is fine and we all have a nice time and also Alice and I go out together as a two.
So there you go, up and down and all over the place.
All I really want I guess is for Alice to be in a girlfriend/boyfriend place with me which I think she never will be but she's happy for the three so long as she's seeing Honey alone regularly.
BB
I thought I would update you in what's been happening.
So at the beginning of January it became clear that we all had different 'wants' and expectations.
I sat down with Alice and explained what I wanted and what I expected. (I guess the difference being that if I felt I didn't get what I wanted I would be disappointed but if I didn't get what I expected then annoyed). As such we reached an understanding where by I knew what to expect moving forward. Basically this meant that Alice and Honey would carry on seeing each other as a two and we would socialise as a three and be intimate as a three twice a month).
TBH it felt a bit clinical laying it out there but Alice didn't want me to get disappointed and I wanted her to know what my expectations of a Triad relationship were.
This worked well until the end of January when we went away together for a long weekend to Amsterdam (the sex capital of Europe) We all had a great time and I went to work straight away for a week and on return Alice requested another 'sit down'.
It turns out that she felt it harder and harder to control her Jealousy over me and Honey and she wasn't expecting it to get that way. She also said that she was finding the sex with me (a man) hard and that she probably couldn't do it for much longer. As such she asked me to basically carry on as before with no sex.
Over a few days I took this onboard and realised that I was being asked to basically be my wife's girlfriends's best mate. I felt like I had been 'friend-zoned' by her when I want to be on a girlfriend level.
I decided that it would probably be best if I pulled out altogether as I felt that being with them and watching her be so close to Honey without being a part of it was too much.
They were both very upset particularly Honey who said that this was supposed to be about us as a three and now I was pulling out she felt bad etc etc. This then snowballed to effect her and Alice's relationship as she could see how upset Honey was.
So after a week or so Alice came back to me and asked if I could forget it all and go back to how we were before.
I was now totally confused. How can Alice now want to have sex with me again when she said she didn't want to anymore? So all the old arguments came up about how I felt she was only sleeping with me to be with Honey etc etc and she reassured me she would not be doing something she didn't want to if she didn't want to.
So here we are back on good terms and having fun. We've slept together once since the Amsterdam trip and it was all good and Alice and Honey professed to having a great time .
They continue to see each other very regularly, Alice tends to come over for 2-3 nights a week when I'm away and 2 odd nights when I'm here (although sex is only twice a month)
I know Alice continually says to Honey how she wishes it could be just the two of them but she knows an excepts the situation. (which again makes me feel shit) But when we are together as a three she is fine and we all have a nice time and also Alice and I go out together as a two.
So there you go, up and down and all over the place.
All I really want I guess is for Alice to be in a girlfriend/boyfriend place with me which I think she never will be but she's happy for the three so long as she's seeing Honey alone regularly.
BB
Hi BB,
Thanks for posting that update. It sounds like you have hit some bumps in the road, but things are smoother at the moment. I have to admit, it is hard for me to wrap my mind around the fact that Alice is a lesbian but yet she has sex with you. Perhaps she is slightly bi? and just doesn't want to identify as such? You seem to be wondering about that as well.
I hope you'll keep updating us sometimes going forward.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
Thanks for posting that update. It sounds like you have hit some bumps in the road, but things are smoother at the moment. I have to admit, it is hard for me to wrap my mind around the fact that Alice is a lesbian but yet she has sex with you. Perhaps she is slightly bi? and just doesn't want to identify as such? You seem to be wondering about that as well.
I hope you'll keep updating us sometimes going forward.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
powerpuffgrl1969
Active member
BB, Alice is ONLY having sex with you because of Honey.
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Yep, and it's going to damage her. You're trying to force a triad where there isn't one.
If Alice is a lesbian, and sharing sex with you is a problem? I think you and her are just not compatible for her to be your lover/girlfriend person too. That's why I grey out the last part.
You are a man. Alice is a lesbian. Those don't go together for being lovers. I think both you and Alice hurt yourselves ignoring that to triad with Honey. It would have been better from the beginning for you to say "No, thanks Honey. You date Alice on your own." And Alice to say "No, thanks Honey. I only want to date you. Not your hubby."
Months later? Alice does not want to share sex with you. You don't sound like you want "obligation sex" or "pity sex" like Alice just does it to keep going with Honey. So stop sharing sex with Alice. Keep it way simpler.
Alice and her jealousies? That's her personal work she needs to be doing. She might actually start to feel better and not resent you/feel jealous so much if she's not sharing sex with you to retain access to Honey.
Fair enough. That is you taking care of YOU. I think that is a sound decision. You've given this triad thing a shake for several months now.
If you are breaking up with Alice sicne it isn't really compatible between you for lover/GF? It is reasonable to step back and having some healing time before trying to be friends and socialize as friends.
And those upsets are normal feelings in a breakup. Break ups are not fun. There needs to be time to heal.
Honey can expect both you and Alice to be bummed out for a while.
I get where Honey would be bummed out at the end of triad, but she cannot FORCE a triad to keep on happening. They exist as a 3 person yes, and neither you nor Alice are giving joyful yes here.
You are saying NO.
Alice was saying NO until it sounds like pressure from Honey changed it to "Fine, then yes" but that is not JOYFUL sounding. That sounds like sex with you to be the price of admission to dating Honey. Not dignified for you or Alice to do/accept that.
That has nothing to do with you. This is in the (Alice + Honey leg).
If Honey is pressuring Alice or acting out at Alice to do X so Honey doesn't have to feel yucky? That's their issue in their dyad.
If Honey doesn't cut it out, Alice can say "I love you. But not even for you will I do stuff that hurts me. I'm a lesbian. I don't want to share sex with your husband any more. And he doesn't want it either. Why are you forcing this?"
And you could kindly say "No, thank you Alice. I want to be just friends only. I'm ok with you dating Honey. I hope Honey is not pressuring you to keep going with the triad thing."
I wonder why you and Alice think you have to do stuff you really don't want to be doing just so Honey doesn't feel yucky?
Why is it better for you and Alice going along with a triad that neither one of you wants to be doing?
Rather than everyone adjusting and accepting it's best off as a V thing with Honey married to you and dating Alice?
So it can't be that? You and Alice stop sharing sex. You heal from the break up. Then socialize in 2's or 3's?
Rather than 2 grumpy faking triad just so Honey doesn't have to adjust to the new reality.
You dating another person is no different than Honey dating Alice.
Is THIS why Honey resists the triad break up?
- Because she'd have to work on herself and accept that she's got a double standard going on?
- She wants you and Alice to be lovers so she doesn't feel guilty about having another partner herself? Or guilty about not really being fair with that double standard?
Like if it is Alice (someone Honey picked out) then it's "ok" but if it is each of you having a separate GF, it's too scary to Honey to see you picking out your own dating partners?
What's going on with Honey?
I don't think you and Alice continuing to do stuff you don't really want to do any more just so Honey doesn't have to deal with her stuff is doing Honey any favors.
While at the same time, doing stuff you two don't want to be doing? That would be hurting you and Alice.
All the way back from the first post --
Next time listen to YOUR reservations. Don't get so caught up in Honey's "gung-ho ness."
I think you could stand firm at this point in time. Kindly but firmly tell them both you don't want to triad any more, and prefer a V with Honey as the hinge. Would like time apart to heal from the break up, and over time just socialize in 2's or 3's and be friends.
Galagirl
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As of yesterday I was pretty much in agreement with powerpuffgrl1969, Evie and in the most part Galagirl.
But then this morning it all changed again!!
So yesterday I mentioned to Alice that Honey was coming round to the idea that I possibly look to date someone else to relive the pressure on their relationship and to help me not feel left out. Alice questioned why I would do this and I told her that there were elements of the Triad that just didn't seem to be free flowing ie: the sex issue and also that I didn't feel like her boyfriend only a third wheel in her's and Honeys relationship.
She was pretty quiet but didn't say much.
Then this morning we were all lying in bed and Honey says she's taking the dog for a walk. so she gets up to have a shower. Alice and I are chatting and Alice says "I think ill stay here and masturbate"! so I'm like "well if you need a hand?!", and then she says "well I don't think Honey would like that", we banter around a bit and I say"well if I ask Honey and she's ok are you up for it?", and she sort of smiles a and shrugs.
So Honey comes out the shower and asks if anyone else wants to walk the dog and I just say "no thanks, Alice and i are are going stay here and have sex". She's totally cool and says ok have fun and off she pops.
So then we spend the next 30 mins or so getting it on and she's well into it and so am I.
So now I'm totally confused (and most of you guys must be too!) Alice has gone from saying a few months back 'there will definitely never ever be 2 way sex between me and her', to saying 3 weeks ago the three-way sex is off the table to now accepting/wanting to to do both.
All I can says it this is a crazy crazy life i'm in!!
BB
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But then this morning it all changed again!!
So yesterday I mentioned to Alice that Honey was coming round to the idea that I possibly look to date someone else to relive the pressure on their relationship and to help me not feel left out. Alice questioned why I would do this and I told her that there were elements of the Triad that just didn't seem to be free flowing ie: the sex issue and also that I didn't feel like her boyfriend only a third wheel in her's and Honeys relationship.
She was pretty quiet but didn't say much.
Then this morning we were all lying in bed and Honey says she's taking the dog for a walk. so she gets up to have a shower. Alice and I are chatting and Alice says "I think ill stay here and masturbate"! so I'm like "well if you need a hand?!", and then she says "well I don't think Honey would like that", we banter around a bit and I say"well if I ask Honey and she's ok are you up for it?", and she sort of smiles a and shrugs.
So Honey comes out the shower and asks if anyone else wants to walk the dog and I just say "no thanks, Alice and i are are going stay here and have sex". She's totally cool and says ok have fun and off she pops.
So then we spend the next 30 mins or so getting it on and she's well into it and so am I.
So now I'm totally confused (and most of you guys must be too!) Alice has gone from saying a few months back 'there will definitely never ever be 2 way sex between me and her', to saying 3 weeks ago the three-way sex is off the table to now accepting/wanting to to do both.
All I can says it this is a crazy crazy life i'm in!!
BB
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AlwaysGrowing
Well-known member
Or alice is afraid that you dating is going to be a recipe for drama or opens the door for you finding someone that then happens to click with honey as well, effectively replacing her in this triad dream you're building.
All your communication as a group seems off. Like, people rarely seem to actually say what they mean and/or quickly act directly in contrast to what they've said. It's stressful just reading about it. Lol
All your communication as a group seems off. Like, people rarely seem to actually say what they mean and/or quickly act directly in contrast to what they've said. It's stressful just reading about it. Lol
- You tell Alice that Honey is coming around to the idea of you dating other people.
- Then Alice offers to share sex with you.
- You agree.
If so, I guess I wonder...
Why does Alice offer? To stop you from having sex with other people later on? She's not being consistent with her Word.
And why do you ACCEPT? Earlier you seemed to want to keep it "friends only" with Alice. Sharing sex is not friends only if it ends up confusing you and leaves you wanting her to be your GF. You are not being consistent with your Word.
If you do not obey your own limit, then I don't know how you plan to unconfuse.
Become firm of purpose and be a person of your Word. Stop being Alice's lover and just be friends. Pull out, and just be a V. And give it some TIME to sink in, not changing one thing to another every other day. That would be my suggestion if you want to get off the up and downy roller coaster.
If your greatest want it is to NOT be confused?
Then you have to make a choice and stick with it even if the other two (Honey and Alice) are sliding around all over the place and keep offering sex when you have stated to both you not longer want group sex and don't want sex with Alice. Even if they offer?
You have to learn to say "No, thanks."
Because participating in group sex / sex with Alice leaves you confused. The sex might be good, but it sounds like you are tired of the emotional price tag later of feeling all messed up.
If Alice she wants to do behaviors that later leave her all over the place, that's her deal.
Just because she's doing it to herself doesn't mean YOU have to hop on board, esp. if you prefer clearer boundaries and less confusion for YOU.
Like you guys can keep on talking and talking, but until you each start keeping your Word with the ACTIONS to match? It's going to keep on being the circle of confusion.
Galagirl
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vinsanity0
Active member
Thanks everyone,
Galagirl;: I pulled out before as I could see myself getting hurt and because I didn't want Alice doing anything she didn't want to do. I still really wanted it to work so when Alice approached me and said lets try again I said yes.
I also told her my condition which was that she was only doing it for the right reasons ie: that she wanted to be with me and not to use me as a pawn with Honey.
She told/convinced me this was the case and I believed her so I agreed to try again. She recently stepped up the dynamic which I'm more than happy about but I am wary.
She also mentioned to Honey that she feels second best and Honey has told me that she thinks its not just with her but with me so Honey suggested I up my game too and make her feel more special etc so I'm going to try and do that.
So the signs are there for this to work and I'm trying to be open-minded.
I'm sure it will all change by tomorrow!!!
BB
Galagirl;: I pulled out before as I could see myself getting hurt and because I didn't want Alice doing anything she didn't want to do. I still really wanted it to work so when Alice approached me and said lets try again I said yes.
I also told her my condition which was that she was only doing it for the right reasons ie: that she wanted to be with me and not to use me as a pawn with Honey.
She told/convinced me this was the case and I believed her so I agreed to try again. She recently stepped up the dynamic which I'm more than happy about but I am wary.
She also mentioned to Honey that she feels second best and Honey has told me that she thinks its not just with her but with me so Honey suggested I up my game too and make her feel more special etc so I'm going to try and do that.
So the signs are there for this to work and I'm trying to be open-minded.
I'm sure it will all change by tomorrow!!!
BB