Guidance on early steps of a quad needed...

[LePapak]

Hi everyone,

Happy New Year! I decided to post today as the resolution for 2021 is to navigate through this new path of my life. Some background first, I am in a committed relationship for 9 years and for the past 5 we have opened our relationship to multiple experiences sexually and after trying openly to date other people we entered a new stage for us.

We found out that although we do want to date other people we prefer doing it together and that’s how we ended up today. In summer we dated a girl and had a throuple relationship for 3 months but then didn’t work out on her part (she fell in love with another man and neither of them was open to a quad) which left us a bit “sore”.

But about 2,5 months ago we started dating a couple and it has been great as we have a lot of chemistry as friends and in bed. Nevertheless, we find ourselves in a situation with them that we don’t know how to read. You see, my partner and I are open with each other about our emotions and we are both enthusiastic and positively emotional people. We are happy to fall in love with other people and have them more in our lives. But for the other couple we are not sure if they feel the same. We meet, we have an amazing night, but then we exchange maybe 2-3 messages until we meet again. In the meantime we don’t hear back from them to learn for example about their day or joke around, like one would do in a friendship or early relationship or whatever.

Has anyone similar experiences in this regard? We could use some guidance on navigating through these emotions and dynamics. It’s our second time this happening and we are afraid we’ll get hurt again. How does one understand the signs about how the other couple might feel in the early stages of a quad relationship?

 

[FallenAngelina]

From what you've shared, it sounds like the other couple is into swinging, not polyamory. Where did you meet this couple? What were the circumstances and assumed parameters? Most people who date as couples do so under the Swing banner and polyamory would be highly unusual, if not completely incomprehensible. Is this couple even aware that polyamory exists?

 

[LePapak]

From what you've shared, it sounds like the other couple is into swinging, not polyamory. Where did you meet this couple? What were the circumstances and assumed parameters? Most people who date as couples do so under the Swing banner and polyamory would be highly unusual, if not completely incomprehensible. Is this couple even aware that polyamory exists?

Hallo FallenAngelina,

thanks for responding to me. We met on Feeld and we openly shared with them from the start that we are poly and they said that they are open to it but they are very new to this lifestyle, in the sense that it was the first time that they opened their relationship aside from a one-time sexual experience with a woman.

It’s interesting you mention that about swinging as we had talks for multiple hours every time we met and they said that they also look for connections but then again they are currently looking generally into dating other people. This is how we got the sense that maybe it’s a bit one sided for us as they are still not sure what they want or if they are into us as well.

The point is that this is also kind of a first to us as well and we don’t really know how to read them or communicate this to them

 

[Evie]

Could you ask them on an actual date? Not a night in bed, but a day out in the city.

 

[GalaGirl]

We meet, we have an amazing night, but then we exchange maybe 2-3 messages until we meet again. In the meantime we don’t hear back from them to learn for example about their day or joke around, like one would do in a friendship or early relationship or whatever.

Is this relationship mainly for sex? Like FWB or similar?

However it works out with this couple, if that's important to you? Could flip the script and do that stuff you want in a friendship/early relationship before sharing sex together.

With the couple you are seeing -- they may be playing the field a bit and seeing other couples, and maybe trying to figure out if they are more into swinging or poly. Or maybe one of them wants one thing and the other wants something else. Maybe you are more into them than they are into you. Or maybe they are into you too... just newbie awkward.

You really cannot know where they stand at this time unless you ASK.

So... now that it's been 2.5 mos? And you want to know where this is going? Tell them you both are interested in investing a bit more here to see what grows. And ASK if they feel the same or not. Or is this just a FWB relationship or has this run its course or what.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hello LePapak,

My guess, based on what I've read so far, is that this couple you're dating isn't into you as much as you are into them. If communication is important to you between dates, you could sit down with them (I would do it in person), and explain to them that you would like them to contact you more, like in a normal relationship. Although, I suspect that they won't be willing to do that, they may even ghost on you. Although it's also possible that they are just content with the relationship where it's at, and they will maintain the status quo as long as you're willing to do so. You could ask them if this is the case, but they may not want to answer. I'm thinking that communication is not one of their strengths. I could be wrong though, at 2½ months it's probably too soon to be sure about these things.

I hope you can work things out with them.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[LePapak]

Could you ask them on an actual date? Not a night in bed, but a day out in the city.

Hi Evie,

sounds like a goos idea and we thought about it but with Corona now it’s a bit difficult to plan for this, everything is closed so we always meet at home.

But if you have any creative ideas that would help with this, please share.

 

[Magdlyn]

There is a lot of talk of "them." "We" are dating "a couple." "We" feel X. "They" feel Y.

I hear that you, Le Papak, and your spouse (I'm not sure of the gender of either of you) have dated others separately, but now have decided you both want to date as a unit. You want to both date/have sex with, one other woman, or an entire MF other couple. Is this correct? If so, why?

You know that despite being partnered or married, all couples are composed of individuals. You are one person, your spouse is one person. You are not clones. You are both seeking different things in a partner or partners. They may be similar things, but they won't be identical. Likewise, any one woman you date will be looking for certain things in dating partners. She may prefer one of you over the other, either in your personality, your sexuality, or both. And this goes double for an entire other couple.

It's hard enough to date one-on-one. To expect all the stars to align between one couple and one other couple (4 individuals!) is very unrealistic.

Most couples who want to date other couples only shoot for a good sexy time. They may share a bedroom and just swap partners, for an evening, and then part ways until they are feeling horny for group sex again. Swingers look to protect the married or committed couple as a priority. They may be wary of "love" happening between one of them and a member of another couple. They may allow friendship, but never actual one-on-one dating and love. They may even break up an entire "quad" if love happens.

In polyamory, most success happens when each member of a couple dates independently. It's much easier and more natural to love one-on-one. Each dyad has their own dynamic, and needs to be nurtured as such. You can't expect "love" to grow between one individual and both members of a couple simultaneously. That might be well-nigh impossible.

Just as your attempted triad (I hate the word throuple) failed, I expect this attempted quad to also fail, unless every single person can express their feelings for every single other person honestly, and have consent to unequal development of feelings.

It's very helpful to assign nicknames to each individual. You are Le Papak. You need a nickname for your spouse and for each person in the couple you are trying to date. This will help your readers.

It would help you to read this.

So, someone called you a Unicorn Hunter?

This article is a long, technical discussion of what being a "Unicorn Hunter" means, what's wrong with it, and how people in such a situation can try to avoid the negative stereotypes associated with such behavior and get the things that they are ultimately looking for. It is written in a…

davidlnoble.livejournal.com

 

[LePapak]

Is this relationship mainly for sex? Like FWB or similar?

However it works out with this couple, if that's important to you? Could flip the script and do that stuff you want in a friendship/early relationship before sharing sex together.

With the couple you are seeing -- they may be playing the field a bit and seeing other couples, and maybe trying to figure out if they are more into swinging or poly. Or maybe one of them wants one thing and the other wants something else. Maybe you are more into them than they are into you. Or maybe they are into you too... just newbie awkward.

You really cannot know where they stand at this time unless you ASK.

So... now that it's been 2.5 mos? And you want to know where this is going? Tell them you both are interested in investing a bit more here to see what grows. And ASK if they feel the same or not. Or is this just a FWB relationship or has this run its course or what.

Galagirl

Hi Galagirl,

thanks for the intuitive answer that’s helpful actually. I think through these Apps it’s most common that you start sexually, then FWB and then something deeper and I think this is where we are now.

But you really think it’s a good idea to openly address them about how we feel and ask them how they feel about it?

what if they are intimidated by this? Like you said they are pretty new to this and they might still exploring their limits.

Did you have a similar experience in the past? If yes how did you ASK this question?

Cheers

 

[Magdlyn]

Hi Evie,

sounds like a goos idea and we thought about it but with Corona now it’s a bit difficult to plan for this, everything is closed so we always meet at home.

But if you have any creative ideas that would help with this, please share.

Evie lives in NZ where there is no Covid, lucky her!

She meant have a non-sexual date. (Meeting at home... are you sure everyone is virus free??) Play cards or a board game, watch a movie, do a project. Or safer, go out for a walk! Anything other than fucking.

 

[LePapak]

Hello LePapak,

My guess, based on what I've read so far, is that this couple you're dating isn't into you as much as you are into them. If communication is important to you between dates, you could sit down with them (I would do it in person), and explain to them that you would like them to contact you more, like in a normal relationship. Although, I suspect that they won't be willing to do that, they may even ghost on you. Although it's also possible that they are just content with the relationship where it's at, and they will maintain the status quo as long as you're willing to do so. You could ask them if this is the case, but they may not want to answer. I'm thinking that communication is not one of their strengths. I could be wrong though, at 2½ months it's probably too soon to be sure about these things.

I hope you can work things out with them.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

Hey Kevin,

thanks for the message and sort of wake up call. That’s what we are also thinking and are afraid of. That either they don’t feel the same or they are not going to easily communicate what they are feeling.

Any advice on how to approach them about this without scaring them away?

 

[LePapak]

There is a lot of talk of "them." "We" are dating "a couple." "We" feel X. "They" feel Y.

I hear that you, Le Papak, and your spouse (I'm not sure of the gender of either of you) have dated others separately, but now have decided you both want to date as a unit. You want to both date/have sex with, one other woman, or an entire MF other couple. Is this correct? If so, why?

You know that despite being partnered or married, all couples are composed of individuals. You are one person, your spouse is one person. You are not clones. You are both seeking different things in a partner or partners. They may be similar things, but they won't be identical. Likewise, any one woman you date will be looking for certain things in dating partners. She may prefer one of you over the other, either in your personality, your sexuality, or both. And this goes double for an entire other couple.

It's hard enough to date one-on-one. To expect all the stars to align between one couple and one other couple (4 individuals!) is very unrealistic.

Most couples who want to date other couples only shoot for a good sexy time. They may share a bedroom and just swap partners, for an evening, and then part ways until they are feeling horny for group sex again. Swingers look to protect the married or committed couple as a priority. They may be wary of "love" happening between one of them and a member of another couple. They may allow friendship, but never actual one-on-one dating and love. They may even break up an entire "quad" if love happens.

In polyamory, most success happens when each member of a couple dates independently. It's much easier and more natural to love one-on-one. Each dyad has their own dynamic, and needs to be nurtured as such. You can't expect "love" to grow between one individual and both members of a couple simultaneously. That might be well-nigh impossible.

Just as your attempted triad (I hate the word throuple) failed, I expect this attempted quad to also fail, unless every single person can express their feelings for every single other person honestly, and have consent to unequal development of feelings.

It's very helpful to assign nicknames to each individual. You are Le Papak. You need a nickname for your spouse and for each person in the couple you are trying to date. This will help your readers.

It would help you to read this.

So, someone called you a Unicorn Hunter?

This article is a long, technical discussion of what being a "Unicorn Hunter" means, what's wrong with it, and how people in such a situation can try to avoid the negative stereotypes associated with such behavior and get the things that they are ultimately looking for. It is written in a…

davidlnoble.livejournal.com

Hi Magdlyn,

thanks for the insightful article it was a good read indeed. I think some of those stuff described apply to most Poly couples including us.
I hear you we come of as that and yes we are individuals (MF couple) but bi both (same as the other couple).

I also see the point about the unrealistic expectations. Quite frankly we are also surprised with the chemistry that we all 4 have with each other, but reading the opinions of everyone hear, I think we might be a bit too quickly too invested, meaning that currently we might be more FWB at this point although we hate labels in general.

Anyway, time will tell I suppose...

 

[LePapak]

Evie lives in NZ where there is no Covid, lucky her!

She meant have a non-sexual date. (Meeting at home... are you sure everyone is virus free??) Play cards or a board game, watch a movie, do a project. Or safer, go out for a walk! Anything other than fucking.

Yes I got the idea and I think you got a different idea about our situation in and out of our relationship. But thanks for the idea, will try to apply it.

 

[Magdlyn]

Sure, it's possible to have sexual chemistry on the first or second date. Whether it's between 2 women, 2 men, or a woman and a man, the newness/novelty can be stimulating. Over time, as the newness fades, you come to learn if there is enough there to continue to want to either have sex, or date in a more full sense, or maybe to just drift apart.

New relationship energy (NRE) is hormonal. True friendship or love grows over time, is more emotional, and offers more long-term potential. It can take 6-18 months to determine if the relationship is actually "real," or just lust/infatuation.

 

[LePapak]

Sure, it's possible to have sexual chemistry on the first or second date. Whether it's between 2 women, 2 men, or a woman and a man, the newness/novelty can be stimulating. Over time, as the newness fades, you come to learn if there is enough there to continue to want to either have sex, or date in a more full sense, or maybe to just drift apart.

New relationship energy (NRE) is hormonal. True friendship or love grows over time, is more emotional, and offers more long-term potential. It can take 6-18 months to determine if the relationship is actually "real," or just lust/infatuation.

Hi Magdlyn,

actually this is very helpful to know. With my spouse we discussed in the car the responses I got here and we came down to the same conclusion that we need to take a step back and breathe to give it some time for us for them for everyone to figure out if we there are feelings, how we feel about these feelings being there and at the end let the time show where we stand.

thank you again for this small guidance trip

 

[GalaGirl]

But you really think it’s a good idea to openly address them about how we feel and ask them how they feel about it?

Up to you. Could also wait and see if they bring it up. Or if you feel like bringing it more later down.

Me? I like clarity and I speak my mind. You sounded like you wanted to know. So I suggest you ask. Something like "So... what is it you are looking for? I'm curious. I'm up for X, Y, Z."

If all it takes to intimidate someone is for me to ask them about themselves and the things the like, want, seek? Because I'm trying to get to know them while dating them? For me? That weeds them out.

They might be looking for one thing and me another. Or maybe we both are looking for similar. But how am I supposed to even know if I don't ask? I'm not a mind reader.

If they don't feel the same as me or if they communicate poorly? That may mean *I* no longer want to keep investing here because it's not a match or it is just a drag to have to keep "fishing things out" of them. I prefer to be with people who communicate clearly.

Not everyone you date will be a runner. Why are you worried about "scaring them away" if you ask them about themselves?

That's what dating is FOR isn't it? To find the compatible ones.

Galagirl

 

[LePapak]

Up to you. Could also wait and see if they bring it up. Or if you feel like bringing it more later down.

Me? I like clarity and I speak my mind. You sounded like you wanted to know. So I suggest you ask. Something like "So... what is it you are looking for? I'm curious. I'm up for X, Y, Z."

If all it takes to intimidate someone is for me to ask them about themselves and the things the like, want, seek? Because I'm trying to get to know them while dating them? For me? That weeds them out.

They might be looking for one thing and me another. Or maybe we both are looking for similar. But how am I supposed to even know if I don't ask? I'm not a mind reader.

If they don't feel the same as me or if they communicate poorly? That may mean *I* no longer want to keep investing here because it's not a match or it is just a drag to have to keep "fishing things out" of them. I prefer to be with people who communicate clearly.

Not everyone you date will be a runner. Why are you worried about "scaring them away" if you ask them about themselves?

That's what dating is FOR isn't it? To find the compatible ones.

Galagirl

True, true and true. I think open communication is the key here and probably will follow your suggestion as well. Thanks a lot!

 

[Magdlyn]

Up to you. Could also wait and see if they bring it up. Or if you feel like bringing it more later down.

Me? I like clarity and I speak my mind. You sounded like you wanted to know. So I suggest you ask. Something like "So... what is it you are looking for? I'm curious. I'm up for X, Y, Z."

If all it takes to intimidate someone is for me to ask them about themselves and the things the like, want, seek? Because I'm trying to get to know them while dating them? For me? That weeds them out.

They might be looking for one thing and me another. Or maybe we both are looking for similar. But how am I supposed to even know if I don't ask? I'm not a mind reader.

If they don't feel the same as me or if they communicate poorly? That may mean *I* no longer want to keep investing here because it's not a match or it is just a drag to have to keep "fishing things out" of them. I prefer to be with people who communicate clearly.

Not everyone you date will be a runner. Why are you worried about "scaring them away" if you ask them about themselves?

That's what dating is FOR isn't it? To find the compatible ones.

Galagirl

I don't know, GG. Not everyone is able to articulate what they want from a certain r'ship after just 2-3 dates. Asking them to pinpoint it could seem intimidating. It could actually SLOW the growth of trust, if you seem overly needy, or anxious, etc.

And not everyone will tell you the truth, even if you ask. Men are notorious for saying they want more than they actually do. On the other hand, some people want more than they are willing to admit to a relative stranger! Communication is not cut and dried. A asks a question, B clearly answers, correctly anticipating what they want from this relationship.

You may want a certain depth of r'ship from certain kinds of people, and other kinds of r'ships from other kinds of people. (I am speaking for myself, this is my truth and my approach.) I have found deep relationships that started fun and casual. I have found satisfying, fun casual r'ships to be enough when I would have preferred more depth.

My partner's r'ship with her OSO started out sexual/kinky/friendly and twice a month. Now, after 7 years, there is great depth, full blending of lives, 3 full days a week time together, less sex and kink (barely any!). But I think if Pixi had pressured her bf for more depth early on, he would have felt crowded and bailed.

 

[Magdlyn]

In another example, I once had a first date with a very cute, intelligent, successful, fun, younger Indian American man. He was born and raised in India, 27 yrs old about, never married. Knowing Indian culture, and that he was in close contact with parents and other family back home, I suspected they were pressuring him to find an Indian American wife. So I pointblank asked. I didn't want to date someone, go through all the effort, just be seen as a kind of trashy sex dump person, while he was seeking Ms Right, and could potentially ghost on me at any minute.

He denied vehemently that his parents/family were pressuring him to marry, or trying to matchmake, lining up marriageable young Indian American women for him to try out. So after a good long conversation about this and many other background things, we liked each other, and had a second date and then a third, with sex on each date. AFTER the third date, he "let slip" that he was dating a young Indian American who was looking for a husband, but he didn't like her much and was going to stop seeing her! His parents had not set them up, but an Indian American male coworker had! Do you see how he'd split hairs and told me a half truth, to get into my pants? This is what (some) people do early on when they feel pressured by questions about "What are you looking for?" I broke up with him after he told me this. It was a dick move. He really did want to get married. I felt like an unpaid whore.

 

[LePapak]

In another example, I once had a first date with a very cute, intelligent, successful, fun, younger Indian American man. He was born and raised in India, 27 yrs old about, never married. Knowing Indian culture, and that he was in close contact with parents and other family back home, I suspected they were pressuring him to find an Indian American wife. So I pointblank asked. I didn't want to date someone, go through all the effort, just be seen as a kind of trashy sex dump person, while he was seeking Ms Right, and could potentially ghost on me at any minute.

He denied vehemently that his parents/family were pressuring him to marry, or trying to matchmake, lining up marriageable young Indian American women for him to try out. So after a good long conversation about this and many other background things, we liked each other, and had a second date and then a third, with sex on each date. AFTER the third date, he "let slip" that he was dating a young Indian American who was looking for a husband, but he didn't like her much and was going to stop seeing her! His parents had not set them up, but an Indian American male coworker had! Do you see how he'd split hairs and told me a half truth, to get into my pants? This is what (some) people do early on when they feel pressured by questions about "What are you looking for?" I broke up with him after he told me this. It was a dick move. He really did want to get married. I felt like an unpaid whore.

Hi Magdlyn,

I am very sorry to hear about this experience it is indeed bad. On the other hand your words have helped me greatly and I think they also apply here. It still might be in the present moment that you met and dated that he liked you and wanted to explore his feelings with you. Sex is sometimes taken for granted as it is easy to do so but it can also be a great way to release emotions. This person could have thought he had more or would develop more but just didn’t do so in the end. No harm in that but feeling will get hurt in any case.