Rocky Road. Not the ice cream. Help!

[schiffer]

For starters, primary partner expressed poly being a nice concept early on in our long 10 year relationship. I'll be 25 this year. Things have been rocky between us 6 years in, but it was chalked up to growing pains. While I regret the hopeful optimism as I'm feeling he hasn't grown up over the years... I probably shouldn't have let him take me back 2-3 times, but I am gullible and hate to see only bad in people, I just admit. I was also very believing he works on himself as he promises after all our serious talks, but they prevail to the point I feel most days I am on fumes over a once cozy now botched foundation.

There is frequent back and forth about his social etiquette and ability to be thoughtful or considerate is not as refined as he may believe... At points it makes time with our mutual friends even strange. I've worried if we were growing into too different people but he doesn't like to hear the concept of our compatibility being questionable. I'm easy to guilt and worry I'm thinking too hard but I digress.

I'm the mediator and tend to stay quiet and just deal with what is dished at me, but as I'm trying to fix my mental health and be a better functioning member of society, I really really hate to feel that it is becoming impossible. Somehow the poly thing came up again seriously a couple months ago, and we had a long talk about our thoughts and boundaries about it moving forward. It took inviting a mutual friend into our relationship per his go, that it now seems he isnt really into it.

we haven't had any real interaction aside from having long calls together, but he will express and display being into it in the moment, but it's likehe clams up when he hears flirty or risque comments at either his OR my way from new partner B ... as I said, this is a mutual friend of ours, so it feels scummy and off to let them reciece such awkward reactions when they were invited by us, per my primary partners greenlight, you know?

problems or not, I am still there for my primary no matter what. Even when he frustrates me beyond function, I can't cast him out because I know he means well and is struggling with communication.... I feel deeply for both of them and don't know how to calm what feels like a festering storm.

This is messy, I know. I tell him the same, but I think his hopeful optimism is more detrimental to himself than my own has for myself or something

The worst part is I notice a distinct different mental state for myself depending on who of my two partners I am talking with. With my primary, i have grown used to this... standby, feigned content npc. I forget what I personally like or want to do with myself. Our new partner reminds me what feeling human is like, and is refreshing as when partner B talks, it's easy to respond to and get lost in, vs very specific things and activities that are surface level time killers or silence...

I had hoped partner B having so much mental health wisdom and a nurturing welcoming paired snug With partner B's down to earth upbeat sense of self would be a great soft way to coax partner A's difficulties in a better direction together, but it seems he is shutting down before we can connect farther, but the three of us are already deep enough into our plans with each other that there's been plenty of intimacy and room for feelings to settle between the three of us... I feel it would be so damning to let partner A cast partner B out at this point as it's sort of turning the whole thing on its head -- and partner A won't communicate with B as they need...

Aaaaaaaah. My mental is very fried and I'm running into dead ends with partner A.

How would you move forward if you know you and B have formed something firm; you haven't been made aware partner A is actually not sure anymore--and that partner A has actually been secretly avoiding B in subtle ways when they can?

I think partner A is just fronting to be with me again... This has been an issue enough times that it is easy for me to pinpoint in the past where I would point out the problem areas between us that keep getting scraped repeatedly, which pains me to say.

Im feeling like a headless chicken that is ominously calm... We were just planning trips we'd take together, and it's like a blink later [month or so on top of previous months before moving to the point of planning getaways altogether], everything is on its head. Guh.

Feel free to ask whatever...

 

[GalaGirl]

I hope you feel better for airing out some.

I probably shouldn't have let him take me back 2-3 times, but I am gullible and hate to see only bad in people, I just admit. I was also very believing he works on himself as he promises after all our serious talks, but they prevail to the point I feel most days I am on fumes over a once cozy now botched foundation.

With my primary, i have grown used to this... standby, feigned content npc. I forget what I personally like or want to do with myself. Our new partner reminds me what feeling human is like, and is refreshing as when partner B talks, it's easy to respond to and get lost in, vs very specific things and activities that are surface level time killers or silence...

I could be wrong in my guess.

You sound done. And the relationship with A is basically a lot of "keeping the peace" and "being nice" but nothing real or of substance because then you'd have to address the elephant in the room. And maybe sad that you are done. But don't want to say it "out loud." But also... want to get this over with.

Is that true?

Is it that you've never had to break up before? That's the trouble?

It's ok to break up and move on.

Who we are in our teens is not who we are in our 20s, 30s, 40s, etc. It doesn't mean either is bad people. Just means you have grown in different directions. Are no longer compatible.

I've worried if we were growing into too different people but he doesn't like to hear the concept of our compatibility being questionable.

I think you hit the nail on the head. And you are making the mistake I see a lot of young people make. They only want to break up if it's mutual, with understanding on both sides, hugs, etc. But really? It just takes ONE person to break up and decide they don't want to be doing this any more.

This is a tool I've given all my kids. I think it applies to anyone of any age.

https://www.scarleteen.com/article/relationships/should_i_stay_or_should_i_go

problems or not, I am still there for my primary no matter what. Even when he frustrates me beyond function, I can't cast him out because I know he means well and is struggling with communication.... I feel deeply for both of them and don't know how to calm what feels like a festering storm.

"Be there for you no matter what" is a charming way children approach their friendships and early loves. But eventually people grow up and learn love is conditional. And love alone is not enough to make a sustainable relationship. There must be other compatibilities.

I love my partner of decades a lot. But NO. I am NOT going to be there for my partner "no matter what." And he knows it.

• He starts to hit me or the kids or the dog? Gross behavior. I'm out.
• He starts cheating on agreements? That's gross. I'm out.
• He starts hitting on minors? That's gross. I'm out.
• He starts murdering people? That's gross. I'm out.

One can love someone a whole lot. But you have to be able to say "I love you a whole lot, but NO. I will not do stuff that hurts me. Or put up with ANYTHING you do." You have to love and take care of you too.

You have given this partner enough years/time to get it together. If they haven't? Let it go.

I'm easy to guilt and worry I'm thinking too hard but I digress.

Are you a people pleaser?

I don't think you are thinking too hard. To me it sounds like you are trying to get ready to let go. And feel sad.

I'm the mediator and tend to stay quiet and just deal with what is dished at me, but as I'm trying to fix my mental health and be a better functioning member of society, I really really hate to feel that it is becoming impossible.

If that is the goal? You want to become a healthier adult member of society? Maybe it is GOOD that it has become impossible for you to be passive and quiet. You could deal with things a different way other than "just deal with what is dished at me."

It's ok to NOT be quiet. It's ok to speak up and say "No, thanks. I don't want any of that." Being assertive about what you are and are not into is not being aggressive.

If you want to keep going with polyamory with partner B? Go ahead. Or not. Could let them both go and spend some time working on yourself and healing. Then when ready to date again, play the field and gain new experiences. The 20s is a nice time for that.

But you do have to deal with the fact that you have outgrown partner A that you started dating as a teen. And are letting the break up drag on so much it's affecting your mental health. That is not taking good care of you.

How would you move forward if you know you and B have formed something firm; you haven't been made aware partner A is actually not sure anymore--and that partner A has actually been secretly avoiding B in subtle ways when they can?

Again, I could be reading this wrong. If you are asking something like...

"How would I deal with it if after trying out poly with our friend B I discover two things? That I like interacting with B better? And I've outgrown partner A? And partner A pretty much sees that? And is now acting out all weird like they don't want to poly any more? And avoid B? "

I'd dump partner A kind but FIRM. I would tell them it is over. NOT take them back from pity or them trying to guilt me or whatever.

And then I'd get on with my life. Move out, separate finances, whatever has to be done as part of the break up work. I'd spend some time healing, and then I'd be ok again.

My relationship with B would sink or swim on its own merits. Maybe it is an eye opening but not long relationship. Maybe it is a longer relationship. Still to be determined. But if it starts to sink? I'd not wait as long as I did with A. I'd break up with B too.

Just faster because I have learned dragging on does nobody any good. Not me. Not the soon to be ex.

Galagirl

 

[Magdlyn]

Tl;dr: you've outgrown your "primary" partner and it's time to move on.

Another point: in polyamory, if you're already in a couple, it is not necessary, and indeed, not easy or common to try to share one partner between the 2 of you. It's much better to date independently. If you both attempt to date the same person, it's OK if the 2 relationships develop at different rates, or for the dynamic between 2 of the people to fizzle out or stall entirely.

In a triad there are several relationships
A+B
A+C
B+C

Then
A+B+C

 

[kdt26417]

Hello schiffer,

It seems to me that Partner A is the problem. You are not the problem. Partner B is not the problem. You say that Partner A (your primary) is trying, but how hard could he be trying when nothing ever changes? You say that you are going to stay with your primary (Partner A) no matter what, but what is there for you to do when you know he is never going to change? You can't force him to change, you just have to endure his awkwardness and his lack of communication. He doesn't like to hear that he is incompatible with you, but he doesn't do anything to fix that.

I know you want to hold this triad together. It just makes me sad to see Partner A driving you crazy. I don't know whether Partner B feels as frustrated as you do, but if they don't now, they very well may in the future. As I said, Partner A is the problem. He needs to make changes that you can't make for him.

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

 

[schiffer]

I hope you feel better for airing out some.





I could be wrong in my guess.

You sound done. And the relationship with A is basically a lot of "keeping the peace" and "being nice" but nothing real or of substance because then you'd have to address the elephant in the room. And maybe sad that you are done. But don't want to say it "out loud." But also... want to get this over with.

Is that true?

Is it that you've never had to break up before? That's the trouble?

It's ok to break up and move on.

Who we are in our teens is not who we are in our 20s, 30s, 40s, etc. It doesn't mean either is bad people. Just means you have grown in different directions. Are no longer compatible.



I think you hit the nail on the head. And you are making the mistake I see a lot of young people make. They only want to break up if it's mutual, with understanding on both sides, hugs, etc. But really? It just takes ONE person to break up and decide they don't want to be doing this any more.

This is a tool I've given all my kids. I think it applies to anyone of any age.

https://www.scarleteen.com/article/relationships/should_i_stay_or_should_i_go



"Be there for you no matter what" is a charming way children approach their friendships and early loves. But eventually people grow up and learn love is conditional. And love alone is not enough to make a sustainable relationship. There must be other compatibilities.

I love my partner of decades a lot. But NO. I am NOT going to be there for my partner "no matter what." And he knows it.

• He starts to hit me or the kids or the dog? Gross behavior. I'm out.
• He starts cheating on agreements? That's gross. I'm out.
• He starts hitting on minors? That's gross. I'm out.
• He starts murdering people? That's gross. I'm out.

One can love someone a whole lot. But you have to be able to say "I love you a whole lot, but NO. I will not do stuff that hurts me. Or put up with ANYTHING you do." You have to love and take care of you too.

You have given this partner enough years/time to get it together. If they haven't? Let it go.



Are you a people pleaser?

I don't think you are thinking too hard. To me it sounds like you are trying to get ready to let go. And feel sad.



If that is the goal? You want to become a healthier adult member of society? Maybe it is GOOD that it has become impossible for you to be passive and quiet. You could deal with things a different way other than "just deal with what is dished at me."

It's ok to NOT be quiet. It's ok to speak up and say "No, thanks. I don't want any of that." Being assertive about what you are and are not into is not being aggressive.

If you want to keep going with polyamory with partner B? Go ahead. Or not. Could let them both go and spend some time working on yourself and healing. Then when ready to date again, play the field and gain new experiences. The 20s is a nice time for that.

But you do have to deal with the fact that you have outgrown partner A that you started dating as a teen. And are letting the break up drag on so much it's affecting your mental health. That is not taking good care of you.



Again, I could be reading this wrong. If you are asking something like...

"How would I deal with it if after trying out poly with our friend B I discover two things? That I like interacting with B better? And I've outgrown partner A? And partner A pretty much sees that? And is now acting out all weird like they don't want to poly any more? And avoid B? "

I'd dump partner A kind but FIRM. I would tell them it is over. NOT take them back from pity or them trying to guilt me or whatever.

And then I'd get on with my life. Move out, separate finances, whatever has to be done as part of the break up work. I'd spend some time healing, and then I'd be ok again.

My relationship with B would sink or swim on its own merits. Maybe it is an eye opening but not long relationship. Maybe it is a longer relationship. Still to be determined. But if it starts to sink? I'd not wait as long as I did with A. I'd break up with B too.

Just faster because I have learned dragging on does nobody any good. Not me. Not the soon to be ex.

Galagirl

Thank you, it actually brought a bit of water to my eyes feeling like a book. It is a pleasant bittersweet refresher. Your words are very appreciated for more than I can word.

I fully agree with you on the "no matter what" portion, this is just a mishap of faulty word choice I can confidently addure you! I am laid back enough that I will help almost anyone I can where I can, but not if it means breaking my back to achieve it or bite my tongue about important matters - not anymore!

I've been communicating with him as I've made progress with myself as a person physically and mentally so he knows I am just working on having a decent schedule, getting through my work days more awake and happy to work, etc etc, so I am far from afraid to voice what I'm having to do to keep myself intact at this point

What I mean basically is I suppose I feel nothing I'll towards the thought of crossing paths with exes or even lending a hand on typical things one would ask their friend, but nothing past what a friend would do, if that makes sense. While I am disappointed and upset things are dragging this way, I still open his eyes where I can and coax or assist him in being more aware of actively being in the moment and listening and processing before letting the fight or flight like chemicals probably going off in his head. I believe it's what gets A to feel he has to defend his actions and tendencies first and too long before I have to spell out that I haven't had a moment of having my own feelings recognized yet, you know?

We ended up having a big talk about virtually something I've been trying to get him to understand or see for years, he says he finally understands and is horribly ashamed and will do his best and knows that this is the last and final time; said himself before I could even muster up courage to keep my composure as his panic dipped some simple concerns I wanted to talk out, all out of control as if I was breaking up right then.

As you said, I don't feel I have been seen for a long time. I think there is an idea of me being projected while I am here, not actually recieving anything but gifts and surface talks that can't go anywhere for long. I have declined 2 or 3 needless gift offers when I was very down and just wanting comfort the past 2 weeks... I'm too tired to so I no longer hold back things that just be said. It is still difficult beginning because of how quickly he feels as if attacked when I try, but I no longer hesitate when he asks if/why something is wrong.

thanks for providing such extensive advise. Almost feels like a much needed hug!

partner B on the other hand I know it's perfectly open and just not having a good time realizing the inadequacy in person A's seemingly rhythmless wishy washyness. B was invited because of how lovely and equally down to earth/open minded (we are kind of similar in taking the approach of gathering all context before reacting out of consideration for others--though naturally spending time with B has helped my mental to see how to comfortably find the line of where and how one disconnects from some outside force only hurting you, you know?)

B is also respectful that A is still primary however, so there is just a very awkward cloud of B and I not knowing what is going on with A. We have noted mismatched wording on things, which is odd:

(A will say B wants to hang out with us, when even tho B is very chipper and friendly and always willing, hadn't actually proposed a thing at all; A had asked B to partake in activities, but worded from A's mouth to me, that B wanted to hang out with us. Its just so strange when I hold them both dear, especially knowing A much longer it kind of hurt feeling as though he had to dangle the concept of something else to wrangle me in... The problem lies in the way he won't address these things that repeatedly come out! Its frustrating but still saddening though...)

& Yes, airing out feels good. Echo chambers are hellish. I'm so sorry for these blocks of text - I will format much better soon... Must get used to this place on mobile. Thank you again

 

[schiffer]

Tl;dr: you've outgrown your "primary" partner and it's time to move on.

Another point: in polyamory, if you're already in a couple, it is not necessary, and indeed, not easy or common to try to share one partner between the 2 of you. It's much better to date independently. If you both attempt to date the same person, it's OK if the 2 relationships develop at different rates, or for the dynamic between 2 of the people to fizzle out or stall entirely.

In a triad there are several relationships
A+B
A+C
B+C

Then
A+B+C

I couldnt hear ya any louder my friend. I've researched polyamory and love a good read or tasteful media depicting all forms of love & life and have even talked to A about this very thing a few times - the only few times I was able to get words in much before I would feel bad at the way A clams up.

It is ironic; one would know themselves more than others on most cases I would say, but for some reason I feel he's seriously pushing himself to make the polyamory happen a certain way and not seeing how it hurts everyone including himself in the process... I have known A too long to bring up anything fragile without oodles of careful thought and word choice beforehand, but A never lets me get far into pitching ideas for us when it comes to A having to mull around the concept of me potentially being away with someone else independently (even tho B is interested in the both of us as well - they are just open to going with what we are more comfortable with out of courtesy, given regardless A is still primary and B is more than understanding - B even emphasized this on their own without a prompt very early on).

I think I understand you and believe one of those triads may be the equivalent of th pivotal V shaped triad, where the two of them don't necessarily have to interact, as it honestly feels like these days; Not romantic or sexually, but we all do freely talk of sexuality together just as much as we spend our downtime together casually just hanging out and enjoying the company.

I'm wondering if I should reattempt this concept with him at another angle? I would hope with how things are going, he might open back up again? He has recognized and called out one of his most difficult to kick habits recently which was very surprising, so I am getting hopeful he is letting himself grow and not let the unknown rule him so feverishly.

 

[schiffer]

Hello schiffer,

It seems to me that Partner A is the problem. You are not the problem. Partner B is not the problem. You say that Partner A (your primary) is trying, but how hard could he be trying when nothing ever changes? You say that you are going to stay with your primary (Partner A) no matter what, but what is there for you to do when you know he is never going to change? You can't force him to change, you just have to endure his awkwardness and his lack of communication. He doesn't like to hear that he is incompatible with you, but he doesn't do anything to fix that.

I know you want to hold this triad together. It just makes me sad to see Partner A driving you crazy. I don't know whether Partner B feels as frustrated as you do, but if they don't now, they very well may in the future. As I said, Partner A is the problem. He needs to make changes that you can't make for him.

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

Hi kdt!

Yes, it's quite something... Sometimes it feels like a case of a veil over A's eyes that they are not realizing really is there. It is totally possible for one to get so overwhelmed with a perspective that it does become so perplexingly impossible for them to see or feel harmlessly, but there has been a step in a good direction I think.

I bring things up in soft ways and pay more mind to how breaking up romantically doesn't have to be the end of still being a great friend (after all, that was a looot of time, and I don't know how people get uppity and make a whole routine out of steam cleaning someone away--i am comfortable just minding my business and letting people be as long as the parting wasn't something traumatic or disrespectful. If push comes to shove where I have to put away the friendship altogether too, should things not work out on triad, then well, that'll be that too).

I thought I was overdramatic in feeling these ways. I just don't fathom how he doesn't see how long it is taking him to get a grip on his own essentials, let alone how rotten my mental will have gotten without much notice. You really can't show someone the whole picture unless they want to see, and it's mighty troubling, but I'll keep your words close.

Thanks so much for taking the time to assure this anxious lil soul of mine isn't so loony after all. I've had a lot of sad nights being frustrated at witching hours wondering what my life may be if he doesn't work with himself, and what would come of me if I just let myself keep drifting along a sinking pool, but your words definitely gave my mental some extra layers of defense and confidence to make that final decision the next needed moment on the dot if this last chance fizzles out too.

I may get too guilty for other people to add to their misfortune, probably too often for those I shouldn't too, but I'm feeling way worse for myself all these years later for once. I'm an artist on the side and want to get into writing more than ever now, and can't bear to go anywhere month unable to create from the heart with this mess drowning it? Its why I have to do something. Thank you again for the encouraging words!!

Ps. Replied earlier to GalaGirl, there some updates about some of those great points you raise

 

[Evie]

I have known A too long to bring up anything fragile without oodles of careful thought and word choice beforehand...

Just personally, this would drive me batty since it's so very incompatible to healthy poly. Or even healthy monogamy. Or healthy adult communication in any way. Have you two considered couple's therapy to get A more capable with plain speak?

 

[kdt26417]

Hi schiffer,

I think the key here is, is A making any progress? in his efforts to improve himself? Is it just lip service, or is he really improving? If he's really improving and you can tell the difference, then it is probably worth enduring his shortcomings in the hopes that he will improve. Even the little improvements can help.

Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[GalaGirl]

Thank you for more info.

I struggle with no names. I'm gonna call A "Apple" and B "Banana" like generic names. If you prefer something else, I will go with what you pick.

I mean this kindly, ok?

Internet people cannot dx. But to me? Apple kinda sounds like he could use the help of an actual counselor with his issues and insecurities. If he's been struggling with that stuff since he was a teen and you are mid twenties now? Doesn't sound like it was just a puberty awkward phase thing. Right now? It sounds like he copes by latching on to you and using you as his crutch. And he sucks up a LOT of your time because you are in the habit of caretaking him and/or you are "too nice."

I would find that kind of thing suffocating and super tiring. And not very healthy for my own well being. Just reading your extra posts make me go "Yikes! Run for the hills!" because BTDT. You sound like you have been holding a lot in.

I would not want to be doing sooooo much mental and emotional labor for Apple.

I had to break up with a an ex who was just deep in the mire and willing to suck me down with him if I allowed it. He would not seek counseling so I left. I currently deal with a lot of dementia eldercare and if I didn't have strong boundaries with them? They'd try to suck me down under too.

So I'm REALLY picky about who I allow into my inner circle. And who I let continue in my inner circle.

While I am disappointed and upset things are dragging this way, I still open his eyes where I can and coax or assist him in being more aware of actively being in the moment and listening and processing before letting the fight or flight like chemicals probably going off in his head.

Why is it your responsibility/job to regulate Apple?

Rather than Apple working with an actual doctor/counselor?

I believe it's what gets A to feel he has to defend his actions and tendencies first and too long before I have to spell out that I haven't had a moment of having my own feelings recognized yet, you know?

You know in healthy relationships, you don't have to EXPLAIN to people that you get a turn? They know it's a two way street?

Its just so strange when I hold them both dear, especially knowing A much longer it kind of hurt feeling as though he had to dangle the concept of something else to wrangle me in... The problem lies in the way he won't address these things that repeatedly come out! Its frustrating but still saddening though...)

When someone sucks you back in, it is called hoovering. Is that happening here?

I have known A too long to bring up anything fragile without oodles of careful thought and word choice beforehand

This sounds like you walking on eggshells. Healthy relationships don't have to be this hard, or this "carefully planned out ahead of time."

In case it helps you...

https://outofthefog.website/

Again, not trying to dx. Just saying... I think this sounds like you have a bigger problem than "regular poly stuff."

I could be wrong in my impression. But I think you are trying to poly with an undiagnosed patient.

And dating Banana was the eye opener that made you realize "Wait! Relationships don't HAVE to be this hard?"

I thought I was overdramatic in feeling these ways. I just don't fathom how he doesn't see how long it is taking him to get a grip on his own essentials, let alone how rotten my mental will have gotten without much notice. You really can't show someone the whole picture unless they want to see, and it's mighty troubling, but I'll keep your words close.

You aren't being overdramatic. If you are feeling run down and worn out with all this? You are feeling what you are. Run down and worn out with all this.

If Apple is unwilling to get help for whatever he's got going on? No. You can't make him see that.

You can leave though. Because you don't have to stick around. What you are and are not willing to put up with is up to you.

Thanks so much for taking the time to assure this anxious lil soul of mine isn't so loony after all. I've had a lot of sad nights being frustrated at witching hours wondering what my life may be if he doesn't work with himself, and what would come of me if I just let myself keep drifting along a sinking pool,

You aren't looney. You sound worn out.

If he won't see a counselor to try to help himself get better? Could let go of the rope.

Seems straightforward. But prob easier for me to see it because I'm not in it and I don't know any of you. I don't have the emotions in this either. Sometimes people let their soft feelings for others cloud the view.

• If you break up? And he chooses not to work on himself with a counselor?
  • You are alive and off in your new pool. Possibly sad for a time but ultimately lighter and more free than you have been.
  • He gets out, learns to swim, finds a new crutch person to latch on to, or drowns.
• If you let yourself keep drifting along in his sinking pool?
  • You eventually start questioning why you choose to swim here.
    • You get out. And you expect him to get out, learn to swim, find a new crutch person to latch on to, or drown.
    • You don't get out. And you keep as you are until you get tired and drown. And then him? He gets out, learns to swim, finds a new crutch person to latch on to, or drowns.

I'm glad that you are at your limit of tolerance with this and seem prepared to just end it if Apple doesn't get it together and takes personal responsibility for management of his own issues/health/well-being.

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You only get the one. And you can't keep on doing Apple's things FOR him at the expense of your OWN health and well being.

Galagirl