Trying to understand

[KingNothing]

Hello everyone.
To start with, I'm in a relationship with a woman 16 years younger than me (I'm 61). I met her almost 16 years ago and the way we met is too unbelievable. Under those circumstances, I'm amazed we're still together and still so much in love.

From the start, I knew this girl needed and loved attention from other men. I finally let her go on a date a year and a half ago but it has all but ruined our relationship. She only spent a couple nights with this guy when she noticed our relationship suddenly began to crash. After a few discussions, she reluctantly ended her relationship with the other guy. That's when I started learning about poly relationships. After nearly a year and lots of communication, I let her try it again. This time was worse. This time she quit for good saying our relationship was too strong to let go.

But now I feel sad because I want her to be happy. But I may have ruined her happiness. I've offered to set her up in our fifth wheel for a while while I sort this out, but she refuses to leave our bed. I feel so horrible because she is so forgiving.

Plus there is the age thing.

At first, I thought it might spice up our sex life, which it kind of did at first, but since then, our sex life has died. Even at 61, I'm still not ready to stop. Everytime I see her or get near her, I wanna jump her bones, but then I see a promiscuous woman who seems to be man's best friend. And even that turns me on, but still can't seem to touch her intimately.

Now please don't say I have mental problems because it takes more than one individual way of life to fill the world. I may have different beliefs, different insecurities, different upbringing and different opinions. Maybe this life style doesn't fit me but that doesn't make me haywire.

So I decided to join this forum to see if I can get through this, not to be brow-beaten or belittled. (Sorry, I was drug through the mud on another sight for not being 100% on board)

 

[GalaGirl]

Welcome.

I'm having a little trouble understanding your story without names. So I'll call your partner a generic name "Apple." I'm happy to go with what you pick if you want something else.

So.... is this how it went? Correct me if I'm getting parts wrong.

PAST

• You met Apple 16 years ago under (difficult?) circumstances of some kind. You are amazed to still be together.
• You knew Apple was attracted to other men.
• Sept 2020 ish, you agreed to open the relationship so she could date someone else. It didn't go well.
• March 2021 ish, you had learned more about polyamory and agreed to give it another try. Also did not go well. This time she quit for good and doesn't want to try doing polyamory any more.

CURRENT PROBLEMS

1) Even though she wants to stop trying to do poly? You feel bad like you ruined her happiness.

2) She won't get out of bed. (Depression?)

3) Even though you still want to share sex together...

• She's not interested.
• And though partly aroused by the knowledge she's been with other people, you also struggle to share sex with her knowing she's been with other people/wants to be with other people. Like a Catch 22.

Is that about it? If so... I guess I'd suggest these.

1) She chose to give it up. So that's her choice. You haven't "ruined" her happiness. She's making a choice for herself. If she doesn't like it? She can make a new choice later down like asking to try again. Or ending things with you. Or something else.

2) Might ask Apple to consider a doc check up if she can't get out of bed and is feeling low. Could offer to help her make the appointment call or give her a ride in to the doc. If she's in her mid 40s... Could be hormones starting to going funky from perimenopause or depression or... best a doc check it out.

3) At this time? She wants to stop doing poly. There are no other people. So perhaps over time you might be more able to share sex. In the meanwhile, might cuddle, kiss, or hug if that's doable. Intimacy and sensuality covers a lot of activities, not just penetrative sex.

Those would be my suggestions. I hope over time things get better for both of you.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Greetings KingNothing,
Welcome to our forum. Please feel free to lurk, browse, etc.

It sounds like you are having struggles accepting open/poly, but I can't quite place my finger on what's causing those struggles. Perhaps you are afraid that another man would "steal her" from you, if that man had a "better cock," or was otherwise somehow "superior" to you? That type of concern/insecurity is not uncommon. When your partner sleeps with someone else, does she lose interest in you?

It will take a while to dig to the bottom of the poly struggles you (and she) are having, we will need more posts from you, more of your thoughts and feelings on what is going on here. I hope Polyamory.com can help you sort out the difficulties you are having with your partner and poly.

Sincerely,
Kevin T., "official greeter"

Notes:

There's a *lot* of good info in Golden Nuggets. Have a look!

Please read through the guidelines if you haven't already.

Note: You needn't read every reply to your posts, especially if someone posts in a disagreeable way. Given the size and scope of the site it's hard not to run into the occasional disagreeable person. Please contact the mods if you do (or if you see any spam), and you can block the person if you want.

If you have any questions about the board itself, please private-message a mod and they'll do their best to help.

Welcome aboard!

 

[KingNothing]

"You met Apple 16 years ago under (difficult?) circumstances of some kind. You are amazed to still be together."

In May of 06, 5 years after my divorce, I decided to sell my home. I dated a few women but nothing worked out.
I decided to have an estate sale. On a Friday morning at 7 AM, I opened the estate sale. Lots of people showed up. But at 10AM, this particular girl drove up and got out. Just to set the picture, she was wearing the tightest jeans, knee high boots, a tight shirt and a thin leather jacket, beautiful hair and just about the flirtiest girl I have ever met. She hung around for 3 plus hours, talking away, asking questions. I was going to burst, one way or another. The lust was horrible and I finally nailed her out by one of my sheds. (I live on 20 acres). She and her 2 kids were living with me 2 weeks later and I took the house off the market and we still live here. I originally thought this was going to be the most volitile relationship because I didn't even know her very well when she moved in but has actually been the best relationship I have ever had.
But
She might be a little depressed because she really enjoyed her dates, but I didn't. But she's not so depressed that she can't function. We both still work and text each other throughout the day.

"Even though you still want to share sex together.."
Yes, she wants sex bad, but I don't see her as "Mine" anymore. I see her as a (this is going to be bad), whore. But if I call her that, which I did the morning she came home, it just turned her on and we did have amazing sex. But since then, it started dwindling away.

Yes, she has chosen to give it up, but she misses it and wants to do it again in the future. I'm open to that. You are right about that. I didn't give her an ultimatum, this was her reluctant choice. There's no threat of a break-up, just the intimacy. And I really don't want her to cheat on me.

So my goal is to understand the mind set of someone who can have 2 partners. If you give your partner 100% of your attention, how can you give another person attention without taking some of that 100% away? So if she loves me 100% and still dates this guy, doesn't she give him a percentage? So does she love me 100%, or 90%, 50%? maybe I'm selfish.

 

[GalaGirl]

Well, if you are in your 60s, depending on what sort of upbringing and sex education you have had... some of that might be challenging to work through.

But you could examine it.

She might be a little depressed because she really enjoyed her dates, but I didn't.

If you don't really want to be doing open relationship or polyamory... why'd you agree to go there TWICE? Once maybe, if you thought you could try to see and it turned out you didn't like it. But to go there again doing stuff you don't sound like you really want to be doing... what for?

If you don't like it? Don't consent to do stuff you really don't want to be doing. A fundamental skill is the ability to say "No. I love you a whole lot. But not even for you will I do stuff I'm not interested in or stuff that hurts me."

Yes, she wants sex bad, but I don't see her as "Mine" anymore. I see her as a (this is going to be bad), whore.

So... who taught you that if a woman has more than one partner, she's a whore/prostitute? Or that in romance, a lover has to be "mine?"

If you value exclusivity, that's ok. But hold up your value then, and stop doing open/poly experiments. Don't go against your own grain.

I don't know if these help you sort your feelings and thoughts out any.

Opening Up Book and some of the worksheets from it

Wayback Machine
Self Evaluation

Wayback Machine
Creating Authentic Relationships

Wayback Machine
Reflecting on Change

Wayback Machine
Open Relationship Checklist

But if I call her that, which I did the morning she came home, it just turned her on and we did have amazing sex. But since then, it started dwindling away.

Set aside the angry sex for a moment.

You agreed to do open relationship. If you consented and then discovered it was too weird for you? You could have said "I tried it. I don't like it. Too weird for me."

Acting out at her after her date and calling her a whore/prostitute like she went out to turn tricks for money? That's you throwing your anger at her head and acting out. For what? When you could have just said "No, thanks. I don't want to do open relationship" from the start?

Did you ever apologize for calling her names?

Presumably if she's willing to give it up? She's giving it up. Could do nothing but give her time/space to process.

If you give your partner 100% of your attention, how can you give another person attention without taking some of that 100% away? So if she loves me 100% and still dates this guy, doesn't she give him a percentage?

Well, let's put some numbers on it. Let's say there's 10 hours each week that she can spent on dating/romance.

Even in a 1 partner situation? She could spend 0 of it on the partner. Just phoning it in, not really participating in courting the partner any more.
Or she can spend it all on the partner. Or something in between depending on what else is going on in her life asking for her attention like work or the kids.

Just like sleep. We're all supposed to get something like 8 hours, but we might take from the sleep budget if there's a big work thing going on.

If she has 2 partners? Presumably both partners share the time. It might be split up like an even 5 + 5 or 6+4 or 7+3 or whatever it is. Because some people want X hours to feel satisfied while others need less/more hours to feel satisfied and willing to keep participating.

How much time do YOU need to feel satisfied in a relationship?

So does she love me 100%, or 90%, 50%? maybe I'm selfish.

That is different than time management.

If she loves you? She loves you. If she also loves someone else? She loves them too.

Could examine your own life. Do you only love and care about one person? Or you you have several people in your life that you love and care about amongst your friends and relatives? They may not be romantic love, but you do care about them, right? So you caring about Friend, doesn't mean you have no space to care about Relative or vice versa.

Or do you view life like you have this love bucket. So you will love Friend only 15%, your Relative 25%, and Apple 35%, and then the rest you are saving to love something else. Maybe a pet?

If at heart? You are monoamorous (desire to love 1 Sweetie) and monogamous (desire to be in a 1:1 relationship model, 2 people and that's it)? You may have to come to terms with that and not do any more open/poly experiments. Don't bend yourself into pretzels.

If you see yourself as monoamorous (desire to love 1 Sweetie) and maybe relationship shape flexible where you could do monogamy, or be an end point to a small poly structure like a V -- like Apple has two partners and that's it? Not like a larger polycule? That's another thing.

If you see yourself as polyamorous (desire to love more than 1 Sweetie) and relationship shape flexible or polyamorous? That's another thing too.

I suggest doing your soul searching on it. Figure out what it is you want in life. What you are ok and not ok doing.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hi KingNothing,

It sounds like you have a perfect relationship with your girl, other than this one little thing. If she would just stop being into polyamory, you would have a perfect relationship with her. Alas, she will not give up her interest in it, even if she stops practicing it for your sake, which only makes you feel guilty because then she is not happy. And the worst thing is, you no longer desire sex with her because she is no longer "yours," she is a "whore." And when she does sleep with another guy, she is "stealing" some of the time and attention that otherwise would be meant for you. So you see, this isn't such a little thing after all.

It sounds to me like since the two of you are always going to stay together no matter what, one of you is going to be unhappy. Or both of you are going to be unhappy. Could you be happy with her practicing poly? not likely. Poly is dirty and unfair, or at least that's how it is to you -- how you were brought up. You do not believe in sleeping around. You believe in having wholesome relationships. Monogamy is wholesome; nonmonogamy is not. This is what you were taught to believe. Do you really want to cash in that belief system? Do you want to believe that nonmonogamy can be clean and whole? Does that idea appeal to you?

Food for thought,
Kevin T.

 

[KingNothing]

Well, if you are in your 60s, depending on what sort of upbringing and sex education you have had... some of that might be challenging to work through.

But you could examine it.



If you don't really want to be doing open relationship or polyamory... why'd you agree to go there TWICE? Once maybe, if you thought you could try to see and it turned out you didn't like it. But to go there again doing stuff you don't sound like you really want to be doing... what for?

If you don't like it? Don't consent to do stuff you really don't want to be doing. A fundamental skill is the ability to say "No. I love you a whole lot. But not even for you will I do stuff I'm not interested in or stuff that hurts me."



So... who taught you that if a woman has more than one partner, she's a whore/prostitute? Or that in romance, a lover has to be "mine?"

If you value exclusivity, that's ok. But hold up your value then, and stop doing open/poly experiments. Don't go against your own grain.

I don't know if these help you sort your feelings and thoughts out any.

Opening Up Book and some of the worksheets from it

Wayback Machine
Self Evaluation

Wayback Machine
Creating Authentic Relationships

Wayback Machine
Reflecting on Change

Wayback Machine
Open Relationship Checklist



Set aside the angry sex for a moment.

You agreed to do open relationship. If you consented and then discovered it was too weird for you? You could have said "I tried it. I don't like it. Too weird for me."

Acting out at her after her date and calling her a whore/prostitute like she went out to turn tricks for money? That's you throwing your anger at her head and acting out. For what? When you could have just said "No, thanks. I don't want to do open relationship" from the start?

Did you ever apologize for calling her names?

Presumably if she's willing to give it up? She's giving it up. Could do nothing but give her time/space to process.



Well, let's put some numbers on it. Let's say there's 10 hours each week that she can spent on dating/romance.

Even in a 1 partner situation? She could spend 0 of it on the partner. Just phoning it in, not really participating in courting the partner any more.
Or she can spend it all on the partner. Or something in between depending on what else is going on in her life asking for her attention like work or the kids.

Just like sleep. We're all supposed to get something like 8 hours, but we might take from the sleep budget if there's a big work thing going on.

If she has 2 partners? Presumably both partners share the time. It might be split up like an even 5 + 5 or 6+4 or 7+3 or whatever it is. Because some people want X hours to feel satisfied while others need less/more hours to feel satisfied and willing to keep participating.

How much time do YOU need to feel satisfied in a relationship?



That is different than time management.

If she loves you? She loves you. If she also loves someone else? She loves them too.

Could examine your own life. Do you only love and care about one person? Or you you have several people in your life that you love and care about amongst your friends and relatives? They may not be romantic love, but you do care about them, right? So you caring about Friend, doesn't mean you have no space to care about Relative or vice versa.

Or do you view life like you have this love bucket. So you will love Friend only 15%, your Relative 25%, and Apple 35%, and then the rest you are saving to love something else. Maybe a pet?

If at heart? You are monoamorous (desire to love 1 Sweetie) and monogamous (desire to be in a 1:1 relationship model, 2 people and that's it)? You may have to come to terms with that and not do any more open/poly experiments. Don't bend yourself into pretzels.

If you see yourself as monoamorous (desire to love 1 Sweetie) and maybe relationship shape flexible where you could do monogamy, or be an end point to a small poly structure like a V -- like Apple has two partners and that's it? Not like a larger polycule? That's another thing.

If you see yourself as polyamorous (desire to love more than 1 Sweetie) and relationship shape flexible or polyamorous? That's another thing too.

I suggest doing your soul searching on it. Figure out what it is you want in life. What you are ok and not ok doing.

Galagirl

"Well, if you are in your 60s, depending on what sort of upbringing and sex education you have had... some of that might be challenging to work through.

But you could examine it."
That's part of it. We read the Bible a lot but I don't want to bring religion into this. I've also never been around a lifestyle like this that I know of. I've never seen or heard of any of my friends or relatives do this. My gf hasn't either. But her mom did cheat on her step dad. She was ignored as a child and sought attention by being the football team's best friend. Her past doesn't bother me at all but probably explains why she can do this.

We've discussed for a while before letting her do this. I do love her and wanted her to be happy. She was but I wasn't. My upset is perfectly normal. The second time was my idea, again, to let her experience it. But it bothered me too much. On a side note, it wasn't just 1 date each time, it was several. A few were all nighters, but most were just a few hours, which she preferred. In fact, she wanted to bring her last friend to our house and finish the night in our spare room and then come to bed after her friend left. I agreed to that and it happened 3 times but I can't get let it happen the fourth. This is where she stopped doing this. A side not is she wasn't dating several different guys, just 2.

"You agreed to do open relationship. If you consented and then discovered it was too weird for you? You could have said "I tried it. I don't like it. Too weird for me."" ......"If you don't like it? Don't consent to do stuff you really don't want to be doing. A fundamental skill is the ability to say "No. I love you a whole lot. But not even for you will I do stuff I'm not interested in or stuff that hurts me."--------

---------This is where we're at. She's agreed not to do it anymore so not to damage our relationship. But she enjoyed it. I feel stingy and selfish and trying to understand it so maybe I could tolerate it or accept it without the anxiety. I met the last guy she was "dating", talked with him and learned that she will never leave me, that she told him that right from the start and made it clear throughout this whole thing. So,...I'm not too concerned that I might loose her. But I am a lot older than her.

"Could examine your own life. Do you only love and care about one person? Or you you have several people in your life that you love and care about amongst your friends and relatives? They may not be romantic love, but you do care about them, right? So you caring about Friend, doesn't mean you have no space to care about Relative or vice versa."------Love and intercourse are two separate things. I love and care about my friends and relatives but I don't want to have sex with them. I only want to have sex with my wife. There is a difference. I'm only sexually attracted to one person. And when her and I have sex together, it makes us one and bonds us tighter than any friend or relative. We are more intimate with each other than any friend or relative could ever be.

So yes, I do believe you can love as many people as you want, but that one intimate love, the one you love in a special, intimate way, should be the one you dedicate your life to the most. It's the deepest love you can have. If my sister or best friend has sex with a friend once in a while, two thumbs up for them and I'd be ok with it. But my wife, the one I'm intimate with, different story.

I'm ok if her and a friend go to the bar together and a guy buys her a drink, or she flirts with some guy at her job, or her cuteness gets some guy to buy her some chicken strips at a mini mart, but not ok when it goes so far as sex.

The reason I joined this sight is to try to overcome my insecurities about this. So everything you say I take into account. I don't necessarily want to end this for her, or our relationship, nor do I want her to resent me or I her. I may disagree with some of this, or be argumentative, but I am trying to overcome this.

 

[GalaGirl]

That's the thing though.

If your core belief is this?

So yes, I do believe you can love as many people as you want, but that one intimate love, the one you love in a special, intimate way, should be the one you dedicate your life to the most. It's the deepest love you can have. If my sister or best friend has sex with a friend once in a while, two thumbs up for them and I'd be ok with it. But my wife, the one I'm intimate with, different story.

What's wrong with you believing "Yeah, ok. That might be fine for other people. But I don't want any open relationships/polyamory for me."

I can't tell if Apple is your GF or wife at this point. But you sound pretty firm. You already have given it a try. You aren't into it.

She's willing to let it go.

She's agreed not to do it anymore so not to damage our relationship. But she enjoyed it.

You don't believe she's being honest about it? That yeah, she enjoyed it. But she's ok letting it go?

I feel stingy and selfish.

Is the problem more about your managing your feelings? Why are you calling yourself names like "stingy" or "selfish" rather than "Yeah, fine for other people, but I'm just not into that."

Like you would any other thing you aren't into.

I'm not into golf. Fine for other people, but me? No, thanks. I'm not into bluegrass. Fine for other people. But me? No, thanks.
I don't sit around calling myself names just because I have preferences for how I want to living my life -- without any golf or any bluegrass concerts in it.

If you want to live your life without any open/poly stuff in it? Fair enough. You get to have your preferences for how you want to be living your life.

I think you've given it a fair enough shake. You tried. Not for you. Don't beat yourself up over it.

There is NOTHING wrong with wanting to love 1 sweetie only, and having a preference for monogamy.



Galagirl

 

[KingNothing]

Hi KingNothing,

It sounds like you have a perfect relationship with your girl, other than this one little thing. If she would just stop being into polyamory, you would have a perfect relationship with her. Alas, she will not give up her interest in it, even if she stops practicing it for your sake, which only makes you feel guilty because then she is not happy. And the worst thing is, you no longer desire sex with her because she is no longer "yours," she is a "whore." And when she does sleep with another guy, she is "stealing" some of the time and attention that otherwise would be meant for you. So you see, this isn't such a little thing after all.

It sounds to me like since the two of you are always going to stay together no matter what, one of you is going to be unhappy. Or both of you are going to be unhappy. Could you be happy with her practicing poly? not likely. Poly is dirty and unfair, or at least that's how it is to you -- how you were brought up. You do not believe in sleeping around. You believe in having wholesome relationships. Monogamy is wholesome; nonmonogamy is not. This is what you were taught to believe. Do you really want to cash in that belief system? Do you want to believe that nonmonogamy can be clean and whole? Does that idea appeal to you?

Food for thought,
Kevin T.

Ending our relationship has been discussed. But neither one of us want that. And yes, I do kind of see her as not clean or wholesome anymore. But the way we met wasn't clean or wholesome either. (Boinked her outside by an outbuilding during my estate sale and moved her and her kids in 2 weeks later.)

Another sight suggests I might be an Alpha male and need to control the situation. The first couple times ended in good sex with her, even as gross as it was, I felt like I couldn't help myself and pinned her down, called her derogatory names and vigeruosly had sex with her. She loved it and keeps trying to "get me there" again . But later dates caused a crash. And the last guy she was seeing ended the date at our house in the spare room which freakishly eased my mind. But still had to end it.

And the sex between us is worse now than ever. And yet I find her extremely sexy and desirable, but now there seems to be.....like animosity towards her.

 

[Evie]

Around here, the misandronistic terms Alpha/Beta etc. male labels are strongly discouraged as neither helpful nor healthy. They aren't personality types and they aren't remotely grounded in scholarly sociology or psychology.

The following is offered with compassion.

I applaud you for doing your research and attempting to examine the internalised misogyny that is largely a part of your upbringing, both cultural and religious, and not your fault. And you may never move past those beliefs that were ingrained into you when you were younger. Poly or any ethical non monogamy isn't for everyone. You don't have to berate yourself if it isn't for you.

Animosity is certainly a difficult place to be trying to conduct a healthy relationship (mono or not) from. I suggest working through this in couples therapy since that's probably a much too big of a feeling to be stuck trying to process alone.

It sounds like, more than trying to work towards a ethical non monogamy model of whatever form, right now, for your well-being and her safety, you'd be better off closed and working to repair your view of her.

When you met, you accepted her past sex life. Is there a way you can now do a "fresh start" as if you were beginning anew again - perhaps something symbolic to you and her whereby you can move into a healthier, safer mindset?

I acknowledge that you have said that the sex you shared after her dates was hot, kinky hot even, but that you discovered it was unsustainable for you to continue doing that. Maybe you became overwhelmed and confused by how hot you did find it. Maybe it just stopped being hot. There would be a lot more to unpack in there if you were inclined to, but NOT while continuing an open relationship. Stay closed while you move past that animosity so you don't make an impulsively bad decision. I'm sure you don't want to be an abusive spouse.

Evie

 

[Evie]

So my goal is to understand the mind set of someone who can have 2 partners.

I'm addressing this separately.

I have two partners, my cohabiting husband and my long distance partner, who has other local partners of his own.

Before that, I had a more local partner and I'd spend alternate weekends with him and my husband.

My husband had a girlfriend at the same time so he'd spend alternate weekends with her.

Ultimately, those two relationships ended for reasons within the relationships, not because of anything between my husband and I.

Sometimes, during that stage of our lives, I sometimes wished to be less beholden to the scheduling, but overall, it worked because it had a bit of flexibility to swap weekends if needed. Sometimes, I found the sex so intense with my newer partner that I felt a bit sad that the intense phase was over with my more established partner.

(It sounds like it is still intense for you with Apple.)

So now, I have two partners again but one is long distance and when we visit, it is planned for at least a couple of weeks at a time.

I generally speak with my long distance partner daily, often twice a day. I see my husband most days and we do normal living together things like dinner together.

One relationship does not detract from the other in any way. I have time with each of them and, importantly, time alone to do my own stuff. As do they. And my long distance partner has regular times in his day where he spends time with his other partners.

The mindset I have is that each relationship is unique as they are very different individuals. I have different experiences of intimacy with each of them. I enjoy those differences. I have enough time in my day/week for each. I have enough money for each.

I enjoy having deliberate dates with my husband rather than the default of thinking that living together is enough time to foster intimacy.

I enjoy having deliberate dates with my partner rather than our daily calls being the sum of our relationship.

I really enjoy my alone time.

I enjoy that my partners have their own full lives, very different ones at that.

My mindset is one of abundance, not scarcity.

And if I ever get laid by anyone else, my partners are happy for me.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm ok if her and a friend go to the bar together and a guy buys her a drink, or she flirts with some guy at her job, or her cuteness gets some guy to buy her some chicken strips at a mini mart, but not ok when it goes so far as sex.

You had something like 14 years together with just you two. You don't mind her flirting. So... can't go back to that and leave it there?

The reason I joined this sight is to try to overcome my insecurities about this. So everything you say I take into account. I don't necessarily want to end this for her, or our relationship, nor do I want her to resent me or I her. I may disagree with some of this, or be argumentative, but I am trying to overcome this.

I think part of the problem is that you both tried this experiment without either one knowing much about ethical non-monogamy or doing any prep work from the sound of it. Could do some reading to catch that up. I listed some things above. Here's more.

Practical Polyamory

Information on relationship skills, education and activism information related to the practice of polyamory; polyamory media resource.

practicalpolyamory.com

kathylabriola.com

Kathy's new zine published by Microcosm Guide to Happy Polydays: How Polyamorous People Can Thrive Between Thanksgiving and New Year's Book Reviews by Kathy Labriola:See Below_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

www.kathylabriola.com

There's a lot to unpack. You might do it with a counselor's help. And what happens if you have explored all the nooks and crannies just to end up at square 1? These are your beliefs. And they just are. THEN will you be able to let go knowing that at least you tried all the things?

I can try to list some angles to think about and bring up with a therapist. Like what are the sore spots?

A few were all nighters, but most were just a few hours, which she preferred. In fact, she wanted to bring her last friend to our house and finish the night in our spare room and then come to bed after her friend left. I agreed to that and it happened 3 times but I can't get let it happen the fourth. This is where she stopped doing this. A side not is she wasn't dating several different guys, just 2.

Is it her approach that bothers you?

A few dates with two dudes and sharing sex with them? Right now? This still sounds mainly like casual sex to me.

(FWIW? I think that's fine for other people. But I don't want any for me. )

I don't know if you'd do any better if this was less like a "looking for a hookup partner" thing and more like "dating an actual boyfriend." Would that matter to you? Could you tolerate her being a hinge with two partners? One of them you, the nesting partner, and the other BF? Because that would be more "respectable" to you like a stable grouping?

And you don't like it if it's a string of casual sex people because that is "dirty" or "promiscuous" to you? That is a constantly changing list of people, and not a steady, stable grouping?

Or is it that you want to be special? And you might be willing to share that spot in her life with one other serious BF. Because that feels important and special. But you don't want to feel like just another notch on her bedpost + chores. Like those other dudes get to be the "fun time" people, and here you are stuck at home with meh sex + chores.

(Not trying to be mean here, just listing things to examine.)

And yes, I do kind of see her as not clean or wholesome anymore. But the way we met wasn't clean or wholesome either. (Boinked her outside by an outbuilding during my estate sale and moved her and her kids in 2 weeks later.)

Another sight suggests I might be an Alpha male and need to control the situation.

You seem to recognize that hooking up with her at your sale and then moving her and her kids in 2 weeks later is rather impulsive. But when two consenting adults agree to share sex and nobody is cheating on agreements with other people... what's unclean or unwholesome about it?

Is it that you get too lost in her? Is it that you find her so sexy/charming that you do stuff that is really out of character for you?
And while initially exciting, you don't find this way of going sustainable? Or you don't like who you are when you are around her? You want to be more in control of yourself?

The first couple times ended in good sex with her, even as gross as it was....

Is it the "sloppy seconds" thing? You want her to shower and some more time/space in between her sharing sex with someone and then sharing sex with you?

I felt like I couldn't help myself and pinned her down, called her derogatory names and vigeruosly had sex with her. She loved it and keeps trying to "get me there" again .

How does she keep trying to "get you there?" Do you like that or find it annoying?

Does she want rough sex or even a BDSM flavor to the sex that you share?

Could that be achieved without dealing in other people? Or you have no interest in rough sex or BDSM stuff? And it is like.... she annoys you til the point you explode in anger/lose control trying to "get you there."And then you have the rough sex. She loves it. But you feel ashamed of your behavior later? Maybe resentful and angry that she's provoking you like this to make you blow up in ways you do not like just for her to get off?

And the sex between us is worse now than ever. And yet I find her extremely sexy and desirable, but now there seems to be.....like animosity towards her.

What do you need to let go of the animosity? Make a fresh start?

How long go did this stop? If it was recent, could the passage of more time help?

Could reading things like this or this article help? Could getting the jealousy workbook and opening up book help? Might also consider Love in Abundance.

Have you considered a sex therapist? Or a counselor to better help you examine all these things?

There's nothing wrong with wanting to do your personal work to try to overcome your upbringing and maybe change to get to "small" polyamory. Like being an monoamorous end point in a "V". So you still have your 1 sweetie -- Apple. And she has just one other BF. That's it. No big poly networks. No string of casual sex partners.

But if what she wants is the casual sex thing and she doesn't want to limit it to a small V thing? If you are doing a LOT of work to get "meh" in return? If this relationship is taking unhealthy turns? Or if you just cannot shake the "she's dirty now" thing? Banging heads on the wall is no good.

Could do the last loving thing and let go. Then each one moves on to find different partners that are more compatible.

And you do not do any more open/poly experiments because you now know that is just not for you. Again... there is NOTHING wrong with wanting monogamy.

However it is it turns out? I hope things get better for you.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hi KingNothing,

You see your girl/wife as now being sick and dirty. You feel animosity towards her, so much so that it damages your sex life with her. How long do you think you will continue to feel this way, and see her that way?

Based on some of the times you had sex with her, like the first time when you boinked her outside by an outbuilding during your estate sale, you seem to be of two minds when it comes to the question of, do you like dirty sex? like sometimes you like it, and sometimes you don't. I think maybe this is confusing you when it comes to polyamory. Like sometimes sex with animosity is hot. Like maybe on one level, your goal is to understand polyamory, but on another level, a darker, more hidden level, there's a hope that you can get back to the point where not understanding poly is a turn-on. I could be wrong of course.

If there's one thing I can think of that one must understand if one is to understand poly, it is that anything two adults consent to is okay. You have the power to consent to poly and by so doing, the power to make it clean and wholesome. If that's what you want. As it stands, something is blocking you from offering your consent. I think it's the way you were raised, but I could be wrong.

Just some thoughts,
Kevin T.

 

[KingNothing]

I'm addressing this separately.

I have two partners, my cohabiting husband and my long distance partner, who has other local partners of his own.

Before that, I had a more local partner and I'd spend alternate weekends with him and my husband.

My husband had a girlfriend at the same time so he'd spend alternate weekends with her.

Ultimately, those two relationships ended for reasons within the relationships, not because of anything between my husband and I.

Sometimes, during that stage of our lives, I sometimes wished to be less beholden to the scheduling, but overall, it worked because it had a bit of flexibility to swap weekends if needed. Sometimes, I found the sex so intense with my newer partner that I felt a bit sad that the intense phase was over with my more established partner.

(It sounds like it is still intense for you with Apple.)

So now, I have two partners again but one is long distance and when we visit, it is planned for at least a couple of weeks at a time.

I generally speak with my long distance partner daily, often twice a day. I see my husband most days and we do normal living together things like dinner together.

One relationship does not detract from the other in any way. I have time with each of them and, importantly, time alone to do my own stuff. As do they. And my long distance partner has regular times in his day where he spends time with his other partners.

The mindset I have is that each relationship is unique as they are very different individuals. I have different experiences of intimacy with each of them. I enjoy those differences. I have enough time in my day/week for each. I have enough money for each.

I enjoy having deliberate dates with my husband rather than the default of thinking that living together is enough time to foster intimacy.

I enjoy having deliberate dates with my partner rather than our daily calls being the sum of our relationship.

I really enjoy my alone time.

I enjoy that my partners have their own full lives, very different ones at that.

My mindset is one of abundance, not scarcity.

And if I ever get laid by anyone else, my partners are happy for me.

Hi KingNothing,

You see your girl/wife as now being sick and dirty. You feel animosity towards her, so much so that it damages your sex life with her. How long do you think you will continue to feel this way, and see her that way?

Based on some of the times you had sex with her, like the first time when you boinked her outside by an outbuilding during your estate sale, you seem to be of two minds when it comes to the question of, do you like dirty sex? like sometimes you like it, and sometimes you don't. I think maybe this is confusing you when it comes to polyamory. Like sometimes sex with animosity is hot. Like maybe on one level, your goal is to understand polyamory, but on another level, a darker, more hidden level, there's a hope that you can get back to the point where not understanding poly is a turn-on. I could be wrong of course.

If there's one thing I can think of that one must understand if one is to understand poly, it is that anything two adults consent to is okay. You have the power to consent to poly and by so doing, the power to make it clean and wholesome. If that's what you want. As it stands, something is blocking you from offering your consent. I think it's the way you were raised, but I could be wrong.

Just some thoughts,
Kevin T.

Yep. That's most of my problem. The way I was raised. We seldom went to Church, but we/I did read the Bible a lot. And I still read it today. Not church, just self reading, self studying and research. I have touched on the subject with my closest friends and relatives but get the feeling none of them practice this life style unless they're hiding the fact. I think this forum is helping me understand. You know what they say, "The older the hose, the less likely it'll bend".

 

[GalaGirl]

Yep. That's most of my problem. The way I was raised. We seldom went to Church, but we/I did read the Bible a lot. And I still read it today. Not church, just self reading, self studying and research. I have touched on the subject with my closest friends and relatives but get the feeling none of them practice this life style unless they're hiding the fact. I think this forum is helping me understand. You know what they say, "The older the hose, the less likely it'll bend".

There's nothing wrong with being Christian or reading the Bible.

In the Bible? It's not like "man+woman" is the only kind of relationship model described.

Someone made a chart a while back along with what passage the model is described in. I don't know it that could help you any.

Types of marriages in the Bible, and today

Types of marriages and families in the Bible compared to today.

www.religioustolerance.org

Of course, some of those are not legal today. And to me, rapists and slavery are off putting regardless of the century. Then the "man+ woman" model? It was generally arranged by family or friends. Arranged marriage then isn't like two consenting adults deciding things for themselves today.

You and Apple decided things for yourself. Like you and Apple consented to share sex by your shed, or you and Apple consented to live together, You and Apple decided do some open experiments without really preparing, etc. Some of the decisions worked out, some not so much.

So if you and Apple consent to Close back up and let this all go?

Or you and Apple decide to take a time out to learn some things and try again later?

The point is that you are consenting adults making decisions and making your agreements. You each get to decide if it's ethical, clean, wholesome, or what against your own ethics/values.

There can be LOTS of different relationship models. Some good and healthy. Some not so.

But in the sense of "Even the Bible describes several relationship models. It doesn't have to be just one way" maybe it helps you to see that chart and read those passages?

If you live in a very conservative area? Then yes. Anyone practicing ethical and consenting open or poly might be keeping it quiet. They are not "out" about it. Hate crimes are a real thing. So are other problems like nosy or judge-y relatives trying to take the kids away.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hi KingNothing,

It sounds like you might benefit from just accumulating some familiarity with poly. To that end, I definitely recommend you continue to explore this forum. See what questions arise for you as you read the threads that call to you; post those questions. In addition to that, you may want to read some poly FAQ pages:

• Poly FAQ
• Loving More FAQ

In addition, there's a book you might want to read, "Sex at Dawn: how we mate, why we stray, and what it means for modern relationships," by Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jethá. It explains that nonmonogamy is actually a normal and natural state for humans, and that monogamy is an artificial construct that has been imposed on us over the last few thousand years. I think reading Sex at Dawn may help you to feel a little more comfortable about polyamory.

Hopefully that helps,
Kevin T.