Help us define cheating/having an affair

[RobertoPDX]

Hey Everyone,

TLDR: Can you help my partner and me define what constitutes “dating”? She wanted me to ask on some poly boards because you all understand different relationships, getting fulfillment from multiple people, and the nuances of things like this. We are committed and monogamous, but she wants to open up when we get on better footing. I’m hesitant, but open to the idea. (No offense intended. I’ve got a lot of very close ENM friends. Love them all with my whole heart.)

My partner has always used cheating as a way out of relationships. We hit a really rough patch, and she was ready to leave the relationship, so she started to do the same thing to me. She had a crush on her supervisor at work, who definitely reciprocated those feelings, and they started hanging out, texting, talking, flirting. She invited me out with them a few times. (I suspect she either likes the energy dynamic of two guys who are into her at the table together or she was trying to show me I didn’t need to worry about him.) I picked up on the vibe, but wasn’t worried. She’s attractive; we’re both flirty. She’d never given me a reason not to trust her, until this.

The trouble started when she lied to me about going to his house for a massage. I caught her and she came clean. She said she felt herself falling into her old patterns and stopped. After that, they continued to hang out one-on-one behind my back. They’d go for walks together, out for dinner and drinks, hiking, etc. She confided in him about our marriage problems and they talked about his sex life. When I asked, she showed me text messages of him “struggling to keep his messages appropriate”, talking about how good the hug and back rubbing felt, how his jacket smells like her perfume.

When this all came to light, I was pretty upset. I feel like this was an affair, even if they didn’t have sex. My wife is insistent it wasn’t an affair, and they weren’t going on dates, because these are all things that she does or would do with her other single male friends, and that all of those guys would have sex with her if she let them, so the crush part doesn’t matter either. I confronted the guy, chewed him out and told him exactly what I think of him. He sat back and took it, then later complained to my wife about how I spoke to him.

I know it’s petty, but can I get a judgement call here? Was this an affair? Were they dating for those few weeks?

She’s told me that she doesn’t have a crush on him anymore. They were still hanging out 1-on-1 until recently, when she said that she would respect my boundaries with him and cut contact. She’s not someone to care what I think or feel or how her words/actions affect me, as long as she believes what she’s doing isn’t wrong, and she’s dead set that this wasn’t an affair.

I’m working on moving past, forgiving and healing, but it feels hard when we can’t agree on what happened.

 

[Magdlyn]

I don't think it's up to the people on the internet to decide on the definition of an affair for you, or for your wife. And in my opinion, the exact definition doesn't matter. If you and she can't decide whether this is crossing boundaries, or breaking monogamous agreements, it's up to you two to decide what to do next.

I am not sure how old you two are, how long you've been together, when you were married. It would be nice to know, for context.

It sounds like it's only recently that you found out she "uses cheating as a way out of relationships." I am not sure if she used the word cheating for her past behaviors, herself, or not. Either way, what is happening now with Supervisor could fall under the umbrella of "cheating" (at least from your POV and comfort level), and her "getting out of your marriage."

Be that as it may, if she's always enjoyed dating multiple men at once, or having very close platonic relationships with them, she might be happier living as a fully sexually open or polyamorous woman.

(My current male partner used to cheat on partners because he didn't really understand that ENM was a viable choice. He was "mono" until he met me. He didn't cheat on every serious gf, but he did find it hard to be emotionally and sexually monogamous. So now he is free to date multiple people ethically, and he's never been happier. He loves easily, he has a big heart and a huge libido, he's good looking, and women are drawn to him.)

But what do you want? Do you prefer to be monogamous? Break up and find someone who really enjoys monogamy too. Or, if you think you'd love dating multiple people, perhaps you could stay with your friendly flirty spouse and you could rewrite your agreements to include polyamory, for both of you. Or the poly part could just be for her, while you remain mono, whatever you want.

In the current culture, there is no reason to give lip service to monogamy, and then cheat (either "just" emotionally, or fully physically). Women have more power now, and can date multiple men (or other genders) if they want to. On the other hand, maybe she just enjoys teasing men who want to fuck her. Maybe that's her kink, to just go to the edge, and tell herself it's not really cheating.

For much more info about ENM, read the book Opening Up., listen to the podcast Multiamory.

All that said, it's not great to open up right when you're struggling.

 

[RobertoPDX]

I don't think it's up to the people on the internet to decide on the definition of an affair for you, or for your wife. And in my opinion, the exact definition doesn't matter. If you and she can't decide whether this is crossing boundaries, or breaking monogamous agreements, it's up to you two to decide what to do next.

I am not sure how old you two are, how long you've been together, when you were married. It would be nice to know, for context.

It sounds like it's only recently that you found out she "uses cheating as a way out of relationships." I am not sure if she used the word cheating for her past behaviors, herself, or not. Either way, what is happening now with Supervisor could fall under the umbrella of "cheating" (at least from your POV and comfort level), and her "getting out of your marriage."

Be that as it may, if she's always enjoyed dating multiple men at once, or having very close platonic relationships with them, she might be happier living as a fully sexually open or polyamorous woman.

(My current male partner used to cheat on partners because he didn't really understand that ENM was a viable choice. He was "mono" until he met me. He didn't cheat on every serious gf, but he did find it hard to be emotionally and sexually monogamous. So now he is free to date multiple people ethically, and he's never been happier. He loves easily, he has a big heart and a huge libido, he's good looking, and women are drawn to him.)

But what do you want? Do you prefer to be monogamous? Break up and find someone who really enjoys monogamy too. Or, if you think you'd love dating multiple people, perhaps you could stay with your friendly flirty spouse and you could rewrite your agreements to include polyamory, for both of you. Or the poly part could just be for her, while you remain mono, whatever you want.

In the current culture, there is no reason to give lip service to monogamy, and then cheat (either "just" emotionally, or fully physically). Women have more power now, and can date multiple men (or other genders) if they want to. On the other hand, maybe she just enjoys teasing men who want to fuck her. Maybe that's her kink, to just go to the edge, and tell herself it's not really cheating.

For much more info about ENM, read the book Opening Up., listen to the podcast Multiamory.

All that said, it's not great to open up right when you're struggling.

Thank you for taking the time for such a thoughtful and helpful response.

I guess she has decided this wasn’t breaking our boundaries/agreement and I decided that it did.

I’m 39, she’s 37. We’ve been together for 6 years, married for 4. She’s been the stepmom to my 11 year old daughter for 5 years.

She uses the term “cheating” in regards to her past exit strategies. If she felt trapped or stuck, she would sleep with someone else to end things. She and I got our start this exact same way-- a friendship connection that we both turned into more while she had an unhappy relationship with a boyfriend of 2 years. She and I were “just friends,” hanging out, doing a lot of the same things.

We slept together. She broke up with him.

(I have since emailed and apologized to him. I owned my behaviors and took responsibility for my actions)

She’s always had a lot of male friends and male attention. She was a professional model for years and it’s never been an issue for us. She is interested in exploring ENM when we get onto stronger ground as a couple. I have my reservations, but told her I would take an honest and open-hearted look at it when the time came.

I think she does derive some pleasure out of having men around that want to fuck her, especially when I’m there. We had a friend who’s poly witness an interaction between her, the supe and me. When I brought up my feelings that she was sort of enjoying orchestrating it, he seemed to agree. I don’t care about this, and could be into it as long as boundaries weren’t crossed. I don’t have any cuckold fetishes (not to yuck someone’s yum) but seeing her flirt with a stranger, then come home with me could be fun, as a role-play exercise.

 

[Magdlyn]

So, if you know she slept with you before breaking up with her current bf, and you know she enjoys lots of male attention, and it's never bothered you before, what is different now? It seems like you know she's this way and it didn't used to bother you.

Was the difference actually reading those texts on her phone? Was she supposed to know those (private) words would be a bridge too far for you?

BTW, it's not actually ethical for you to be reading her texts verbatim. That intrudes on Supervisor's privacy as a friend.

But anyway, yeah. If she's a bit of an exhibitionist and enjoys teasing other men, even in front of you, it does seem like you two could consider ENM. It may not actually be "true love" between her and other men, but she does love the attention. Might as well admit that and deal with it upfront. She's in her late 30s and she knows what she likes. Whether you like it or not, even as it escalates, is something YOU need to decide.

 

[RobertoPDX]

So, if you know she slept with you before breaking up with her current bf, and you know she enjoys lots of male attention, and it's never bothered you before, what is different now? It seems like you know she's this way and it didn't used to bother you.

Was the difference actually reading those texts on her phone? Was she supposed to know those (private) words would be a bridge too far for you?

BTW, it's not actually ethical for you to be reading her texts verbatim. That intrudes on Supervisor's privacy as a friend.

But anyway, yeah. If she's a bit of an exhibitionist and enjoys teasing other men, even in front of you, it does seem like you two could consider ENM. It may not actually be "true love" between her and other men, but she does love the attention. Might as well admit that and deal with it upfront. She's in her late 30s and she knows what she likes. Whether you like it or not, even as it escalates, is something YOU need to decide.

It never bothered me before because she had never lied to me about anything (so far as I know.) When she lied about going to his house for a massage, and I found out she wasn’t telling me when they were hanging out one-on-one, it changed something for me. She was also taking him to our date spots, doing our date and family activities, and that hurt more than I imagined it would have.

I assumed if I asked permission to see her correspondence and she agreed, I was in the clear. I understand he has rights too, but he is also someone who interjected himself into our relationship knowing she was in a committed monogamous relationship, and they were sneaking around behind my back. I understand it’s not representative of my most-evolved self, but I frankly didn’t care about someone who clearly didn’t care about me or respect the relationship my wife and I have.

I don’t know if I can imagine a world where she sticks to our monogamous boundaries we set together. I also don’t want to stand in the way of her happiness and freedom of self expression. As things get better, if she still wants to pursue an open/ENM relationship, then I will honor my promise to approach the change in our dynamic with an empty cup and open mind. I’ll take a crack at it, and if it’s not for me, we’ll discuss the next steps.

 

[Bobbi]

It never bothered me before because she had never lied to me about anything (so far as I know.) When she lied about going to his house for a massage, and I found out she wasn’t telling me when they were hanging out one-on-one, it changed something for of me.

This spoke to me. It wasn't until I considered poly that I realized that it wasn't sex with others that bothered me (typical definition of cheating) it was the lies and deception (now my current definition of cheating). You may feel the same way, and this could be why she feels she didn't cheat, but you feel like she did.

Ponder what you are really feeling. Maybe you two just need to think outside the box to create agreements that work for both of you.

Monogamous relationships are rooted in assumptions. Really delving into what words, terms and situations mean and feel like to each of you can provide a better foundation to come to an understanding.

 

[RobertoPDX]

This spoke to me. It wasn't until I considered poly that I realized that it wasn't sex with others that bothered me (typical definition of cheating) it was the lies and deception (now my current definition of cheating). You may feel the same way, and this could be why she feels she didn't cheat but you feel like she did.

Ponder what you are really feeling. Maybe you two just need to think outside the box to create agreements that work for both of you.

Monogamous relationships are rooted in assumptions. Really delving into what words, terms and situations mean and feel like to each of you can provide a better foundation to come do an understanding.

The fact she felt the need to lie and go behind my back is where my distrust and sense of betrayal is rooted. We’ve discussed trying some new types of relationships when things are healthier between us, and I’m not opposed to investigating things with an open mind and heart. Unfortunately, this all happened when we were on the ropes and considering calling it quits, but both wanted to keep working/trying. It took me out of that lane of thinking for a while, and I’m still trying to bounce back. I was crushed.

Us having fundamentally different definitions of dating, cheating, affair, and emotional affair is a sticking point. She wants us to operate under her understanding of these words and I want us to operate under mine.

Most/all of the folks I have talked to about this situation agreed that lying to your partner to spend time with somebody where there is a mutual attraction, emotionally/sexually connective conversations, physically satisfying touches, the sum total of all of these parts equates to an affair. This is the 8th forum I’ve asked unbiased strangers on because I hate feeling like I’m crazy or way off base for seeing things that way.

The fact that she can’t admit or agree to that feels either like she’s trying to gaslight me or get by on a loophole. Neither makes me feel seen or heard. It doesn’t make my feelings or experience feel validated.

 

[Bobbi]

The fact that she can’t admit or agree to that feels either like she’s trying to gaslight me or get by on a loophole. Neither makes me feel seen or heard. It doesn’t make my feelings or experience feel validated

How you feel is how you feel. If she cannot accept that, regardless of whether you agree on the definition or not, that you feel cheated on, then she is gaslighting you. A healthy person would recognize that you feel hurt, acknowledge those feelings, apologize, and talk about how not to get in that situation again, whether it's by being honest in the future and not hiding things from you, or changing behavior and agreeing on terms for the future.

I'm a bit confused. The entire point is to come to an agreement of what the terms mean moving forward, not what you thought they meant before the incident. It's clear you weren't on the same page before. If you cannot get on the same page now, I'm afraid you don't have much of a relationship. You are living in different worlds.

You need to find common ground. Otherwise, you have fundamental differences that are not compatible in relationship with each other.

If you have to lie to anyone about what you are doing, then you KNOW it's wrong. If she thought it was all okay with you, then she wouldn't have lied about it. Call it an affair (I consider an affair more of a full relationship), cheating (this would fit my definition of what she did, simply because she lied/hid it from you), or call it a hiccup. None of that matters if you can't get on the same page and she cannot/does not seem to care how you feel about it.

A relationship is a choice. You can choose: "No, I will not put up with bad boundaries/lying/dismissive treatment from my partner." There's no need to try so many forums for validation to prove her wrong. If she can't work with you, then chalk this up to her wanting out and move on. You already know this is her pattern. Believe it.

 

[RobertoPDX]

How you feel is how you feel. If she cannot accept that, regardless of if you agree on the definition or not, that you feel cheated on, then she is gaslighting you. A healthy person would recognize that you feel hurt, acknowledge those feelings, apologize, and talk about how not to get in that situation again, whether it's being honest in the future and not hiding things from you, or changing behavior and agreeing on terms for the future.

I'm a bit confused. The entire point is to come to an agreement of what the terms mean moving forward, not what you thought they meant before the incident. It's clear you weren't on the same page before. If you cannot get on the same page now, I'm afraid you don't have much of a relationship. You are living in different worlds.

You need to find common ground. Otherwise, you have fundamental differences that are not compatible in relationship with each other.

If you have to lie to anyone about what you are doing, then you KNOW it's wrong. If she thought it was all okay with you, she wouldn't have lied about it. Call it an affair (I consider an affair more of a full relationship), cheating (this would fit my definition of what she did simply because she lied /hid it from you), or call it a hiccup. None of that matters if you can't get on the same page and she cannot/does not seem to care how you feel about it.

A relationship is a choice. You can choose: "No, I will not put up with bad boundaries/lying/dismissive treatment from my partner." There's no need to try so many forums for validation to prove her wrong. If she can't work with you, then chalk this up to her wanting out and move on. You already know this is her pattern. Believe it.

She accepts it’s how I feel, but denies it was an affair or cheating. She seems genuinely sorry for lying to me, but I don’t think she’s sorry for hurting my feelings, because in her eyes, she didn’t do anything wrong (except lie). So if my feelings are hurt by her actions, and her actions weren’t wrong, then it’s up to me to get over it.

Defining things like cheating, dating, and affair feels more important to me than her. She can’t/wont admit she did anything wrong except lie. It’s hard to forgive someone when they don’t think their actions were wrong. I know I need to, regardless, but I’m sort of feeling stuck.

To her credit, she says she knows now how I feel about these things. So I hope that means it won’t happen again. I’m positive she knew how I felt before/during her actions, because she felt the need to hide, lie, and pull a bait and switch by inviting me to hang out with him and her, so that maybe I wouldn’t be suspicious when they hung out alone.

I know I need to be stronger with my boundaries. The one through line I’ve received from all the feedback is I’m a sucker for staying with someone who would treat me this way, and not have remorse for their actions (outside of lying to me about the massage). I believe in her. I believe in us, our future and our relationship. I don’t want to throw away 6 years of life together, deny my kid a stepmom who loves her and treats her well, sell the house, split the dogs, lose contact with a sister-in-law whom I love, etc., all over something like this.

But I recognize if it happens again then that’s the next step. At a certain point I have to be able to face myself in the mirror.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello RobertoPDX,

I personally think cheating is when you have sexual contact with someone else without your original partner's consent. That's similar to how I define an affair, although with an affair, you do it without your original partner's knowledge (much less consent). If your partner knows but doesn't consent, then you're "cheating out in the open." Now if sexual contact does not happen but yet you're in love with this other person (and spend lots of time with them), I would call that an "emotional affair." But for me to call something "cheating," there has to be sexual contact. Hopefully I haven't overly confused things here.

My default definition for "dating" is going out for dinner/a movie/other public activity. However, I have an alternative definition, which is when "dating" means there's regular sexual contact between you and the other person -- in addition to "going out" with them. In conversations about dating, it's important to be clear about which definition one is using.

As for your partner going out with her supervisor, I would call that "dating" and an "emotional affair," that if you knew about it, you still did not consent to it. It's probably for the best that she pulled the plug on that relationship, it didn't sound like a healthy situation for either of you.

Regardless of whether it's cheating, the important thing here is that she did something that you didn't want her to do, she acted without your consent (and it sounds like she did it behind your back). It would be different if she had come to you first with the idea, but as it happens she didn't do that, she just went ahead and started going out with this guy.

Such are my thoughts,
Kevin T.

 

[Evie]

Are you saying you can't face yourself in the mirror now?

It sounds like you need closure, but you aren't getting it from her, so you're going to have to, as you said, get over it.

I'm guessing she doesn't actually want to split up anymore, and you're up for working on rebuilding a joyous relationship. So, either you're in this for the time it will take to move past this was-but-was-not affair, and just let the time do the job, or you're going to keep chewing on it, finding more and more random internet strangers to try and prove your position to someone who doesn't give a shit about random internet strangers' opinions. How long do you really want to put yourself through this? Cry, go to the gym and punch something, get a new tattoo, whatever will help you physically release some of this intellectual and emotional indulgence. Because you're actually just indulging your bitterness by now, 8 forums later, and yeah, it's time to find a more constructive way to move forward.

 

[ref2018]

This is the 8th forum I’ve asked unbiased strangers on bc I hate feeling like I’m crazy or way off base for seeing things that way.

What do want us to tell you that the other 7 forums didn't tell you?

 

[RobertoPDX]

Hello RobertoPDX,

I personally think cheating is when you have sexual contact with someone else without your original partner's consent. That's similar to how I define an affair, although with an affair, you do it without your original partner's knowledge (much less consent). If your partner knows but doesn't consent, then you're "cheating out in the open." Now if sexual contact does not happen but yet you're in love with this other person (and spend lots of time with them), I would call that an "emotional affair." But for me to call something "cheating," there has to be sexual contact. Hopefully I haven't overly confused things here.

My default definition for "dating" is going out for dinner/a movie/other public activity. However, I have an alternative definition, which is when "dating" means there's regular sexual contact between you and the other person -- in addition to "going out" with them. In conversations about dating, it's important to be clear about which definition one is using.

As for your partner going out with her supervisor, I would call that "dating" and an "emotional affair," that if you knew about it, you still did not consent to it. It's probably for the best that she pulled the plug on that relationship, it didn't sound like a healthy situation for either of you.

Regardless of whether it's cheating, the important thing here is that she did something that you didn't want her to do, she acted without your consent (and it sounds like she did it behind your back). It would be different if she had come to you first with the idea, but as it happens she didn't do that, she just went ahead and started going out with this guy.

Such are my thoughts,
Kevin T.

Very clinical and succinct. Thank you Kevin, this is helpful.

 

[RobertoPDX]

Are you saying you can't face yourself in the mirror now?

It sounds like you need closure, but you aren't getting it from her so you're going to have to, as you said, get over it.

I'm guessing she doesn't actually want to split up anymore, and you're up for working on rebuilding a joyous relationship? So, either you're in this for the time it will take to move past this was-but-was-not affair and just let the time do the job, or you're going to keep chewing on it, finding more and more random internet strangers to try and prove your position to someone who doesn't give a shit about random internet strangers' opinions. How long do you really want to put yourself through this? Cry, go to the gym and punch something, get a new tattoo, whatever will help you physically release some of this intellectual and emotional indulgence. Because you're actually just indulging your bitterness by now, 8 forums later, and yeah, it's time to find a more constructive way to move forward.

Are you spying on me? I’m covered in tattoos and have been a fighter for 20 years now. Dead right on that one.

It started out harmlessly enough, with me posting on Reddit asking if I was an asshole for giving this guy a piece of my mind. My wife said that Reddit doesn’t count because they are bitter and toxic and I would have better success on a relationship forum. So I copy-pasted the same breakdown on a handful of those, because I was looking for a consensus and I didn’t want her to try and say that I cherry-picked a single forum or something.

All six relationship forums agreed that it was an affair; they were dating. I told her I had taken her suggestion and posted on those forums. She said that those people don’t understand nuances, and getting things from other people, and that I should ask a poly forum instead.

I understand it’s an exercise in futility. She doesn’t trust men. I can’t think of times I have ever changed her opinion on something that she is dug in on. Her sister can, her friends can, her therapist can, but her distrust of men makes it hard for her to believe things that I say, which are contradictory to her own beliefs.

You are right and hit the nail on the head. I am indulging in that bitterness and trying to find some righteous vindication on my opinion versus hers. It’s not healthy. I think after reading all of this, I’m ready to put it all to bed. She’s traveling for work for the next month, but we have a virtual therapy session scheduled for Monday. I’m hoping if we talk about it with our marriage counselor we can arrive at a place where all of us feel seen and heard in our grief and opinions.

I love her. I believe in us. I just don’t wanna be lied to or treated like a doormat anymore. I have to remind myself that I do have some control and authority in the situation, because I dictate what I do and how I respond.

Thank you again.

 

[RobertoPDX]

What do want us to tell you that the other 7 forums didn't tell you?

Silly as it sounds, I posted on a poly board on my wife’s insistence that they would see her side more than the other ones. She didn’t like what Reddit had to say, and said to use relationship forums instead. She didn’t like what the relationship forum said, and she told me to post on a polyamory relationship forum. So here I am.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry this is happening.

FWIW, to me it's basically lies and an emotional affair. She just doesn't want to own it and call it that, so she's scrambling around trying to put it on you, like you are the one who is wonky.

The fact that she can’t admit or agree to that feels either like she’s trying to gaslight me or get by on a loophole. Neither makes me feel seen or heard. It doesn’t make my feelings or experience feel validated.

You seem to see clearly enough. It is in keeping with her character. She just doesn't like to take personal responsibility for how her actions affect others.

She doesn't need to admit it for YOU to make decisions. You can make your decisions WITHOUT her admitting anything. You don't like this experience with her. You don't like her cheating behaviors. You don't like the loop-de-loos she does in avoiding taking personal responsibility.

If this is not fun or healthy for you, remember that your consent to participate in things or not belongs to YOU. You can ask for changes in behavior. You can also quit.

If you were hesitant, and on the rocks before the affair, I think after finding out about her affair with her BOSS, you could say, "Nope. Not up for open/poly any more."

Because if you really want that, you could break up, have a time to heal, and go explore that with people who DO care about you, your feelings, what you think, how their actions affect you. Seek HEALTHY poly with healthy people. Don't keep doing wonky poly with wonky her just because you want to avoid a break-up.

One way to get a relationship "off the rocks" is to end it respectfully. I think you may be at that place and really sad about it.

Silly as it sounds, I posted on a poly board on my wife’s insistence that they would see her side more than the other ones. She didn’t like what Reddit had to say, and said to use relationship forums instead. She didn’t like what the relationship forum said. She told me to post on a polyamory relationship for him. So here I am.

Sigh. I suspect next you get to wait for her to say the poly counselor you two pick is a quack and "Takes your side all the time." IME, people who avoid taking personal responsibility for how their actions affect others usually don't like therapy that requires them to start taking it.

I know I need to be stronger with my boundaries.

Counseling can help you with that. You are allowed to have your dealbreakers. And if someone crosses that line, YOU BREAK THE DEAL. With some sadness and regrets, maybe, but you still walk away and end things because of unacceptable behavior.

You forgive because you don't need to carry anger around forever. That is what forgiveness means. But you do NOT have to exonerate and "reboot from a clean slate." It's okay to forgive and then let a thing end and just not do it any more. There are no hard feelings, but you're just not doing that any more.

I believe in her, I believe in us, our future and our relationship.

On what basis? You were the result of a past cheating affair. It may have felt good to get the attention when you were the "special one" she dumped her old BF for. But now that shoe is on the other foot, and you realize it's part of a larger pattern for her, that doesn't feel great.

I understand it’s an exercise in futility, she doesn’t trust men. I can’t think of times I have ever changed her opinion on something that she is dug in on. Her sister can, her friends can, her therapist can. But her distrust of men make it hard for her to believe things that I say, which are contradictory to her own beliefs.

I don't think she's healthy for you to date or be married to then. She won't accept your input or influence as her partner. Her past and current behaviors in general do not sound great. And you yourself say she's not one to care about you, your thoughts, your feelings, and she doesn't take personal responsibility for how her actions affect others.

You also don't see things the same way or share values.

This is a great foundation for "believing in us?" To me, it just doesn't sound compatible.

I don’t want to throw away 6 years of life together,

Nobody can take your memories. The 6 years were had. Choosing not to continue for more is not "throwing those years away." It's just not continuing for more.

deny my kid a stepmom who loves her and treats her well, sell the house, split the dogs, lose contact with a sister-in-law whom I love, etc., all over something like this.

If you choose to allow it, your kid can remain in contact with her former stepmom.

If you and SIL want to be friends after a divorce, you can do that.

You can also create custody agreements on the dogs. And selling the house? Don't sell, then. Buy her out of her share.

Fear of changes is not a reason to say in a wonky marriage. Healthy relationships are better.

https://rhntc.org/sites/default/files/resources/rhntc_hlthy_rlshp_wheel_spectrum_10-13-2022.pdf

You have a child. What are you modeling? Healthy behaviors or wonky stuff? Will the child will learn to swallow this kind of behavior from a dating partner, or start doing it to other people when they are old enough date? I think you could model HEALTHY behavior, which includes walking away as peacefully as possible when a thing is just not fixable. One stops banging one's head on the wall.

But I recognize if it happens again, then that’s the next step. At a certain point I have to be able to face myself in the mirror.

You sound like you're carrying a great burden and like you are grieving a lot. I hope you are able to talk to a counselor and make some headway. If you need another second opinion from the one you've already set up, you could look here:

Polyamory-Friendly Professionals Directory

Polyamory-Friendly Professionals Directory

www.polyfriendly.org

Even if she won't go or if she decides all counselor are "quacks" because they tell her stuff she doesn't want to hear, you could still go for YOURSELF, so you get some support through this challenging time.

I hope things get better for you, one way or another. It sounds very rough, yet you have to be able to say, "I love you a lot. But no, not even for you will I do stuff, or stay in stuff that hurts me. I have to think about my well-being and my kid's well-being."

Galagirl

 

[RobertoPDX]

On what basis? You were the result of a past cheating affair. It may have felt good to get the attention, when you were the "special one" she dumped her old BF for. But now that shoe is on the other foot and you realize it's part of a larger pattern, that doesn't feel great.

You made a ton of good points and gave me a lot to consider. I want to touch on this to say that sadly it took this happening to me in order for me to realize what an entitled shithead (my words) I acted like when I was “the other man." With her permission, I recently emailed her ex (they had made up years ago) and apologized for my actions and behavior. No excuses; I owned it and told him it was wrong and inexcusable. I asked for forgiveness, but told him I didn’t expect it, or even a reply.

My dad let my mom walk all over him. She had an affair and then kicked rocks and left him raising us alone. The more I read about attachment theory, the more I see the pitfalls I need to climb out of and avoid.

Our current marriage counselor has expertise in ENM relationships and is herself in one, from what I've gathered. I think she likes my wife a lot more than me, but that could very well be my own insecurities. Still, there have been a few experiences in the room that made me less comfortable trusting her (like laughing when I said my wife doesn’t trust me because I’m a man), and later not batting an eye or interjecting logic/reason when my wife said I sounded like a “typical man," the kind of stereotyping and reductive statement that strips me of all my personal agency. I spoke up about how that made me feel, and how I’d never say my wife was being a “typical woman” and got 0 support from the therapist.

As for my daughter, I don’t think she’s seen/felt the tension, but I could be wrong. She’s a smart kid. We don’t fight in front of her ever, but we do disagree and resolve conflict together around her. We back each other's play when it comes to rewards/punishments for the kid and are aligned on how to raise her and what our values are in that regard. My ex is pretty severely BPD so it’s been nice having a partner who’s more stable for my daughter, even if she can be a little cold/harsh at times (avoidant-attachment style, from what I’m reading).

 

[GalaGirl]

I could be wrong in my impression, but you sound really cranked up.

I'm sorry your family of origin had all these problems that affected you.

With her permission, I recently emailed her ex (they had made up years ago) and apologized for my actions and behavior.

I think that could have waited. There was no need to jump up and go apologize to that dude. It has been YEARS. If you'd waited another few weeks for cooler heads to prevail before sending an apology email, I doubt he would have cared. He's already moved on in his life. It's good to own it and do it, but it didn't have to be done instantly, right that minute. YWKIM?

You have a LOT going on. To me, this dude to me would be way lower on the list. To me, your priorities would be your well-being, your kid's well-being, then your wife and the state of this marriage, then whatever other people after all that.

Laughing when I said my wife doesn’t trust me because I’m a man

Not especially professional. But honestly, counselors are human. They are surprised sometimes. They mess up sometimes.

It can also take a few interviews before you find a counselor that "clicks" for both of you and can provide the right therapies or modalities you both actually need.

Later not batting an eye or interjecting logic/reason when my wife said I sounded like a “typical man."

So, no comments from the counselor on that, just listening to whatever wife had to say.

I spoke up about how it made me feel and how I’d never say my wife was being a “typical woman” and got 0 support from the therapist.

And no comments from counselor on that, just listening to whatever you had to say.

The counselor sounds like they settled down into "neutral professional" and tried to give you each a turn to say whatever you wanted, without comment. That sounds fair.

I get this is emotionally charged for you, but this sounds like intake appointments still. The counselor is tuning in to a show already in progress and needs to hear the background first. You and wife are giving them the picture from your own points of view, and saying what you hope to get from therapy. Better skills? Reconciliation? A smoother divorce?

What is it you wanted? The counselor to tell your wife she's behaving like a jerk, right off the bat?

Remember, you can always change if this counselor doesn't actually "click" for you, and you can also seek individual counseling for yourself alone. You can have your individual counselor share notes with the couple's counselor if appropriate/helpful. You could request an individual appointment with the couple's counselor as well. So could your wife.

Slow down some. It's not FUN to sit with all this discomfort. But zooming through it because of anxiety or stress or whatever, like "Aaaah! Just get it over with!" is not the way to approach therapy.

Try to get more rest. Take things one thing at a time.Even if you cannot see how this is going to pan out right now, have confidence that actions rooted in good character will yield the best outcome.

Remember to BREATHE. And even if this area of life is up in the air, do your other things on time. Sleep, or at least try to rest on time. Work on time. Eat on time. Exercise on time. Do the parenting things on time. Create stability in those areas.

If you are super stressed, consider seeing your family doctor to see if a sleep aid or anxiety meds would be appropriate in your situation.

Galagirl

 

[RobertoPDX]

I think that could have waited. There was no need to jump up and go apologize to that dude. It's good to own it and do, but it didin't have to be done instantly right this minute.

This Dude to me would be way lower on the list.To me your priorities would go your well-being, your kid's well-being, then your wife and the state of this marriage. Then whatever other people after all that.

Counselors are human. They are surprised sometimes. They mess up sometimes.

It can also take a few interviews before you find a counselor that "clicks" for both of you and can provide the right therapies or modalities you two actually need.


And no comments from counselor on that. They settled down into "neutral professional" and tried to give you each a turn to say whatever you wanted without comments from counselor. That sounds fair.

I get this is emotionally charged for you, but this sounds like intake appointments still. Counselor is tuning in to a show already in progress and needs to hear the background first. Like you and wife putting them in the picture from your own points of view. And what you two even hope from therapy. Better skills? Reconciliation? A smoother divorce?

What is it you wanted? The counselor to tell your wife she's behaving like a jerk right off the bat?

Remember you can always change if this counselor doesn't actually "click" for you, and you can also seek individual counseling for your own self. You can have your individual counselor share notes with the couple counselor if appropriate/helpful. You could request an individual appointment with the couple counselor as well. So could wife.

Slow down some. It's not FUN to sit with all this discomfort. But zooming through it because of anxiety or stress or whatever? Like "Aaaah! Just get it over with!" is not the way to approach therapy.

Take things one thing at a time. Even if you cannot see how this is going to pan out right now, have confidence that actions rooted in good character will yield the best outcome.

Remember to BREATHE. And even if this area of life is "up in the air" -- do your other things on time. Sleep or at least try to rest on time. Work on time. Eat on time. Exercise on time. Do the parenting things on time. Create stability in those areas.

If you are super stressed consider seeing your family doctor...

The apology email to the ex took a few minutes. It was a side thought and I wrote it, proofed it and sent it while at the airport. Apologizing to him was something I needed to do for myself.

We’ve been with this therapist for a while now. I expected a certain amount of helping us say things in helpful/healthy ways, but she didn’t seem interested in doing so in this instance.

I have a high energy job and was writing between classes. You’re right. I am amped. But that’s the gig.

“Have confidence that actions rooted in good character will yield the best outcome” is great advice, thank you.

Eating and sleeping when I’m depressed/anxious is hard for me. I have ADHD, and am anxious in general. I’ve done an all right job, except for a few days here and there. Ironically, I can tell my wife gets annoyed when I’m depressed or not eating, so I try to stay on track.

 

[ref2018]

Silly as it sounds, I posted on a poly board on my wife’s insistence that they would see her side more than the other ones. She didn’t like what Reddit had to say, and said to use relationship forums instead. She didn’t like what the relationship forum said so she told me to post on a polyamory relationship for him. Here I am.

Your wife wanted *us* to give her permission to cheat?