The ending of my polycule

L

lavendarboi

New member
It's been about two weeks, and I'm pretty upset. My entire polycule is queer and trans, just for context. It's hard just surviving out here with a marginalized identity, so some of that plays a big part in this for me.

Shay - my boyfriend
Jazz - My partner
Ester - My friend/meta

About a year ago I met my boyfriend, Shay. He is very lovely and is a great partner, on top of being a great person. Around the same time, I met my friend Ester, and we became pretty close. I've called them when I have been in crisis to come sit with me so that I did not have to hospitalize myself, which, as a queer person, is dangerous for me. So this person means a lot to me.

It just so happens that we all discovered that Shay and Ester were dating the same person. Ester is Jazz's nesting partner.

Ester and Shay always talked very highly of Jazz. Over time, mostly in group settings, I got to the know Jazz a little bit. One day, they asked me if I would like to hang out one-on-one. I said yes. After a while, we both admitted that we had a crush on one another and we began dating.

About a month into our relationship, I started to notice some red flags for someone who is new to poly. I was under the impression that they had been poly for a while, but it turned out Ester was new to poly. Jazz had never been in such an enmeshed polycule, but expressed that this was the desire that they had, which Shay and I also had. The polycule started off strong, but due to jealousy issues from Ester, Jazz decided to handle the situation by immediately pulling back on anything that had to do with all of us hanging out together. And then they also enacted a rule that no one was allowed to spend the night over at their place anymore.

On top of all of that, I realized that Jazz was oversaturated, with five partners, including me, although three of them are long distance, being about an hour away, including Shay, and one person in a completely different state. While Jazz was talking about how they never had any time for themselves, they continued on with all of these relationships. I slowly watched all of them implode, basically, while they continued to see me two or three times a week. We had only agreed to seeing each other once a week, which I was comfortable with, but they always asked for more.

In the four months that I was dating Jazz, every month we had the same issues. When I would try to communicate my needs to them, they would get defensive. I had to do a lot of emotional labor, because they did not handle conflict very well. This was a red flag, because they continuously crossed my boundaries and refused to show me care and consideration.

A few weeks ago, I asked for 2 weeks of space so that we could both think about what we wanted from this relationship. I hoped that it would bring us closer together. At the very least, if we wanted to renegotiate the relationship, we could salvage our friendship.

We ended up having a phone conversation because we were both busy. They were immediately aggressive, as they usually are when we are in conflict. They said some pretty emotionally-charged things. I had to continuously ask that we take a breath and think about what we were saying. At the end of that conversation they told me that, for the sake of vulnerability, they wanted me to know that one of the reasons why they wanted to stay in our state, instead of fleeing for safety purposes was because of me, because they were in love with me.

They then started talking about living together with my meta, Ester.

At this point, we had already been saying I love you to each other for about a month, but it was nice to hear them say that they were in love with me. At the time I didn't really react to it, other than to say that it was a very nice compliment and that I reciprocated. Of course, we had already had very intimate conversations about having romantic feelings for each other. They were texting me in the middle of the night to tell me they were thinking about me and excited about our plans together. We also had intimate conversations about how they were afraid of losing me by messing up our relationship because of their trauma.

A few weeks ago, out of nowhere, they came over to my place (after having told me that they were in love with me) and tried convincing me that everything that they had ever told me was taken in a way that they did not intend, and that they say those kinds of things to all of their friends. They say they love them, they are in love with them, they have big feelings for them. Telling me they want to move in together, with them staying in state, are also things they said to their friends.

Suffice to say, I realize that this is all bullshit. I am incredibly hurt. My trust is basically destroyed. Of course, this affects my other relationships. It has triggered a lot of past hurt, past hurt that Jazz knew about. It definitely feels like I was told what they thought I wanted to hear so that they could continue to have access to me.

They kept saying things like, "Why does this feel so high stakes?" and I think it was, at the time, their strong feelings for me. But now I'm starting to realize that it might be because we are so enmeshed within our community that there's no way that if things go bad we are not going to be running into each other all the time, and I don't think that they wanted our friends to know about their behavior.

Now Jazz is just acting like I never existed, like we never dated. I found out from Ester that they had no idea that Jazz had been telling me that stuff. Now I'm facing the loss of someone who was really important to me. Not just Jazz, but also Ester. I'm also angry that Jazz is in my community, dating other people like me, having put me through the last 4 months of doing a lot of emotional labor trying to collaborate with them. And the fact that they could do this to me means they could absolutely do it to anyone. The fact that they have talked to me about dating other people in our community while they were oversaturated is also a high concern of mine.

I'm a very private person, and I'm not trying to destroy someone's reputation, but where is the accountability? I am at a loss and I am hurting.

UPDATE:
Jazz finally felt compelled to answer message for closure and accountability. As usual they act like I am to blame for not wanting to remain friends and do not wish to re-engage in any way considering how I view them now. I expressed that I also did not want to re-engage but I did want them to take accountability for themselves. From the text they sent me it sounds like they are and they've taken the breakup to Heart and seem to have reflected on their behavior and realize that the way they conducted themselves was not ethical nor does it align with their values so that was very nice to hear because that was what I was concerned with the most. Of course only time can tell and because we do live in a small community it will get around if they continue this Behavior.
 
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That was a lot. I hope you feel better from venting.

From hearing just your side of the story, this Jazz seems pretty toxic. I am not sure what your question is, but it sounds like you'd best avoid Jazz as well as you can, as they burn their way through your community. I don't know if it's their psychological state, or just being young, but somehow they have a reputation of being a good person, despite spreading themselves too thin and telling people they love them and want to commit, in the heat of the moment, but then changing their mind.

I think you don't want them to do this to others. But you don't want to spread gossip. I get that. But there's nothing you can do, really, without you just getting more upset and hurt. It's best just to step back and lick your wounds. I understand how you feel. I've been through something rather similar. I learned my lessons, but in some ways, I will always be wounded by it.
 
Magdlyn said:
That was a lot. I hope you feel better from venting.

From hearing just your side of the story, this Jazz seems pretty toxic. I am not sure what your question is, but it sounds like you'd best avoid Jazz as well as you can, as they burn their way through your community. I don't know if it's their psychological state, or just being young, but somehow they have a reputation of being a good person, despite spreading themselves too thin and telling people they love them and want to commit, in the heat of the moment, but then changing their mind.

I think you don't want them to do this to others. But you don't want to spread gossip. I get that. But there's nothing you can do, really, without you just getting more upset and hurt. It's best just to step back and lick your wounds. I understand how you feel. I've been through something rather similar. I learned my lessons, but in some ways, I will always be wounded by it.
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Yeah, that's what I am resolved to do, honestly. I was also warned against being in a romantic dynamic with them by a few others, so I am definitely not the first. I just have a lot of respect for my boyfriend and my friend/meta and I let that guide me, as well as my first initial account of them.

Jazz isn't that young. They are 41, I'm 38, my boyfriend is 43 and my meta is 30.

Thanks for responding.
 
lavendarboi said:
Yeah, that's what I am resolved to do, honestly. I was also warned against being in a romantic dynamic with them by a few others, so I am definitely not the first. I just have a lot of respect for my boyfriend and my friend/meta and I let that guide me, as well as my first initial account of them.

Jazz isn't that young. They are 41, I'm 38, Shay is 43 and Esther is 30.

Thanks for responding.
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Oh wow, I thought you were all in your early to mid-20s, if not younger. Jazz's behavior just seems so overly emotional and chaotic.

Are Ester and Shay still both going to date Jazz, even though you've broken up with Jazz? Is Ester living with Jazz still?

Is Shay a long-distance partner to both you and Jazz? I wasn't sure.

When you have an enmeshed polycule, almost a quad, in this case, one dyad breaking up can make the whole thing fall apart.

How do you feel about your other partners continuing to date Jazz (if they indeed are) after Jazz treated you badly?
 
Jazz told Ester that *they* ended things with *me.* Ester said that they believe everything I have said, and that they do not agree with the way Jazz behaved. Ester won't try to make any excuses for Jazz, but is going to continue to see/live with Jazz.

My boyfriend Shay lives about an hour away from us. Shay expressed that they were unsatisfied by their relationship with Jazz anyway, and now, adding this, they ended things with Jazz.

Ester and I are trying to find a way to remain close and avoid any contact I might have with Jazz.

Shay is struggling, but so far we are holding pretty strong. My feelings and dynamic with Shay are much more mature and developed than anything I had with Jazz, to be honest.
 
Shay also told me this afternoon that they had a discussion last week with Jazz about everything. They denied nothing, but said that they still loved me, and none of those feelings have changed, despite what they said.
 
As a mod, I lightly edited your above (longer) post for clarity, using actual names more, and the pronoun "they" less. I hope I understood you correctly.
 
Hello lavendarboi,

I'm sorry to hear that your polycule ended. It sounds like it's been a rough ride, and I guess Jazz was extra hard to work with. Jazz doesn't seem to be a very responsible person. They're just out there doing whatever they want, at no cost to them. It just seems wrong.

With sympathy,
Kevin T.
 
kdt26417 said:
Hello lavendarboi,

I'm sorry to hear that your polycule ended. It sounds like it's been a rough ride, and I guess Jazz was extra hard to work with. Jazz doesn't seem to be a very responsible person, they're just out there doing whatever they want, at no cost to them. It just seems wrong.

With sympathy,
Kevin T.
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Definitely. They absolutely lack the emotional maturity to be in relation to someone like me and that's at the very least.
 
I'm very sorry about that. Someone like that shouldn't be loose in the community, involving themself with anyone to whom they take a fancy.
 
Wow, that's a lot. I hope you feel better for airing out some.

They kept saying things like, "Why does this feel so high stakes?" and I think it was at the time their strong feelings for me. But now I'm starting to realize that it might be because we are so enmeshed within our community that there's no way that if things go bad we are not going to be running into each other all the time, and I don't think that they wanted our friends to know about their behavior.
Click to expand...

I'm also angry that Jazz is in my community, dating other people like me, having put me through the last 4 months of doing a lot of emotional labor trying to collaborate with them. And the fact that they could do this to me means they could absolutely do it to anyone. The fact that they have talked to me about dating other people in our community while they're oversaturated is also a high concern of mine.

I'm a very private person, and I'm not trying to destroy someone's reputation, but where is the accountability? I am at a loss and I am hurting.
Click to expand...

Are you worried Jazz is like a "missing stair" person in this community, or like a "people collector," or similar?

I think you could take time out to cool off and recover, since the break up just happened. And you could decide you aren't going to be a gossip, but if anyone asks you directly why you and Jazz broke up, you aren't gonna lie either. You will be brief but honest with that person.
  • When dating you...
    • Jazz spread themselves too thin with too many partners.
    • Jazz did not handle conflict well and would get defensive and aggressive, or give you the "silent treatment."
    • Jazz did not stick to agreements, did not respect your boundaries, did not show you care or consideration, and broke trust.
  • You were not up for that any more.
  • You don't know if they've done any work on themselves since then and you prefer not to talk about Jazz in any more detail than this.
They can make of that what they will.

Jazz had never been in such an enmeshed polycule, but expressed that this was the desire that they had, which Shay and I also had.
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After this experience, you and Shay might change your minds about dating the same person at the same time. In small communities, it can't be helped sometimes that you run into exes, or even both date the same people at one point or another. But it doesn't have to be AT THE SAME TIME.

As for Jazz, don't hang out with them. In public venues, like a restaurant or grocery store, you might have to live with the fact Jazz happened to be there at the same time as you by coincidence. But you don't have to hang out with Jazz at their home, or invite them to yours any more. Those are private venues. You can also be honest with friends that you would prefer to see the friend NOT with Jazz around. It was not a great break up. They can be friends with Jazz if they want, but you don't want to visit the friend if Jazz is there. You can visit another time.

Ester will fall into that category if Ester keeps dating Jazz. You and Ester can agree not to talk about Jazz and see each other in spaces that are free of Jazz.

I'm sorry this happened, though. :(

Galagirl
 
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So is it safe to say that things are still strong with you and SHAY?

It sounds like you got real vulnerable with what felt like a small pod of important people and suddenly one or more them broke trust with you and legitimately hurt you. And actually it kind of doesn't matter the details. That sucks no matter what.

I imagine the amount of time you've spent in net-less vulnerability throughout life doesn't help.

I hope you can maintain at least one strong safety net moving forward (whether that is shay or someone else, and doesn't necessarily have to be a lover). I hope that you can expand your circle of trust to a chosen family who holds you and truly fills you. I hope you can also find love and orgasms in there somewhere too, if that is what you seek, and if not the big O - at least some very lovely butterflies in your stomach from time to time and that delightful fill of crush-juice that makes us giddy and stupid and also warm.

You sound like a lovely human. Drama is drama. No one likes it outside of the entertainment it provides. But experiencing it and living through it often makes THE NEXT time easier.

xxxooo
 
GalaGirl said:
Wow, that's a lot. I hope you feel better for airing out some.





Are you worried Jazz is like a "missing stair" person in this community, or like a "people collector," or similar?

I think you could take time out to cool off and recover, since the break up just happened. And you could decide you aren't going to be a gossip, but if anyone asks you directly why you and Jazz broke up, you aren't gonna lie either. You will be brief but honest with that person.
  • When dating you...
    • Jazz spread themselves too thin with too many partners.
    • Jazz did not handle conflict well and would get defensive and aggressive, or give you the "silent treatment."
    • Jazz did not stick to agreements, did not respect your boundaries, did not show you care or consideration, and broke trust.
  • You were not up for that any more.
  • You don't know if they've done any work on themselves since then and you prefer not to talk about Jazz in any more detail than this.
They can make of that what they will.



After this experience, you and Shay might change your minds about dating the same person at the same time. In small communities, it can't be helped sometimes that you run into exes, or even both date the same people at one point or another. But it doesn't have to be AT THE SAME TIME.

As for Jazz, don't hang out with them. In public venues, like a restaurant or grocery store, you might have to live with the fact Jazz happened to be there at the same time as you by coincidence. But you don't have to hang out with Jazz at their home, or invite them to yours any more. Those are private venues. You can also be honest with friends that you would prefer to see the friend NOT with Jazz around. It was not a great break up. They can be friends with Jazz if they want, but you don't want to visit the friend if Jazz is there. You can visit another time.

Ester will fall into that category if Ester keeps dating Jazz. You and Ester can agree not to talk about Jazz and see each other in spaces that are free of Jazz.

I'm sorry this happened, though. :(

Galagirl
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That's great advice thank you.
 
Sunshine79 said:
So is it safe to say that things are still strong with you and SHAY?

It sounds like you got real vulnerable with what felt like a small pod of important people and suddenly one or more them broke trust with you and legitimately hurt you. And actually it kind of doesn't matter the details. That sucks no matter what.

I imagine the amount of time you've spent in net-less vulnerability throughout life doesn't help.

I hope you can maintain at least one strong safety net moving forward (whether that is shay or someone else, and doesn't necessarily have to be a lover). I hope that you can expand your circle of trust to a chosen family who holds you and truly fills you. I hope you can also find love and orgasms in there somewhere too, if that is what you seek, and if not the big O - at least some very lovely butterflies in your stomach from time to time and that delightful fill of crush-juice that makes us giddy and stupid and also warm.

You sound like a lovely human. Drama is drama. No one likes it outside of the entertainment it provides. But experiencing it and living through it often makes THE NEXT time easier.

xxxooo
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Yes I am incredibly lucky that I do have a network of people who love me and have supported me through this. It has brought Shay and I closer even though things feel rocky. Esther also is committed to maintaining a friendship which I feel very grateful for.

Thank you for your kind words.
 
For context:

Update: Ester came over Monday and we had a talk about everything. They basically just wanted me to justify to them their proximity to someone who basically lied to me for months, regardless of reasons. Ester's attempts to change my mind about their partner (my ex) only solidified in my mind what I already know: that Jazz was afraid to lose access to me and my personhood, so continued to act like they wanted the relationship.

Tonight Shay told me that they are attempting to repair the friendship with Jazz. Shay said what Jazz told them about their side of things makes sense, but they also understand why I feel the way I do. That is also what Ester said.

Am I crazy? I'm feeling like everyone I love is telling me that because this person didn't do it with malice, or intention of malice, that it's okay. I understand why they did it too, but that doesn't mean that I want them as a part of my life. Shay says that because Jazz never treated them that way, they are having trouble reconciling my version of the person Jazz was when they were with me.

But that's because Shay wasn't in an intimate relationship with Jazz. They were friends with benefits. Because Shay doesn't like conflict, they weren't willing to push for their needs to be met, because they knew that Jazz had issues. Unlike me, who knew that Jazz had issues, but was willing to work through them with Jazz, because that was what Jazz was telling me they wanted. So it makes sense that they can tell anyone but the person that they harmed a version of events that justifies what they did. This is why they won't give me closure-- because they know they can't lie to me, because I have the context.

Am I out-of-pocket? I asked Shay for 2 weeks of space, no contact. How can I feel safe with Shay, knowing they are okay with what Jazz did to me? I've had to tell my partners that I can't be sexually intimate right now because this situation has left me feeling used and discarded, something I've felt many times.
 
This is written in a way that’s all over the map. I can’t really follow it, but I'll share my thoughts based on what I am gathering.

1. Each person is entitled to have any kind of relationship with whomever they want. Even if you were harmed by that person, that doesn't mean others should shun them because of what happened to you.
2. Each person has a personal relationship with each individual. How a person acted with you may not be how they act with another. Your friends know your experience and now can now be on the lookout for those red flags, but have the right to experience that person for themselves.
3. Closure is chosen. Nobody has to participate for it to happen. You decide you are done and accept what happened as your experience and work YOURSELF to move past it through feelings, grief and forgiveness. Nobody’s input is needed.
4. You can choose not to associate with or hear anything about this person if your friends/partners still want them in their lives. Voice your boundary on that and enforce it when it comes up.

I hope you can move past this to have happy relationships with those you still want that with.
 
was afraid to lose access to me and my personhood
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What does this mean?
 
Tonight Shay told me that they are attempting to repair the friendship with Jazz. Shay said what Jazz told them about their side of things makes sense, but they also understand why I feel the way I do. That is also what Ester said.
Click to expand...

It sounds like Jazz is saying whatever to them.

Am I crazy?
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No, you are not crazy to leave a toxic situation.

I'm feeling like everyone I love is telling me that because this person didn't do it with malice, or intention of malice, that it's okay. I understand why they did it too, but that doesn't mean that I want them as a part of my life. Shay says that because Jazz never treated them that way, they are having trouble reconciling my version of the person Jazz was when they were with me.
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Other people having difficulty seeing Jazz clearly, dealing in head games, whatever the heck it is, is not YOUR difficulty. It doesn't have to be YOUR concern.

I think you could be firm with Ester and Shay that you won't talk about Jazz any more, so if they need help processing what went down, they have to talk to someone else. You have your own Jazz grief to deal with. You can't be their free therapist, helping them process the ripple effect of the break-up across all the other relationships.

Comfort in and kvetch out.

Right now you are in the center ring, so why are they kvetching at you?

www.latimes.com

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This is why they won't give me closure-- because they know they can't lie to me, because I have the context.
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YOU can give yourself closure. Don't go looking for closure from Jazz.

Am I out-of-pocket? I asked Shay for 2 weeks of space, no contact. How can I feel safe with Shay, knowing they are okay with what Jazz did to me? I've had to tell my partners that I can't be sexually intimate right now because this situation has left me feeling used and discarded, something I've felt many times.
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No, you are not out of pocket. If Ester and Shay turn out to be enablers or flying monkeys, if they are okay with what Jazz did to you and are willing let it slide, you may have to step away from them, too.

You mentioned that both you and Shay know Jazz has issues. I'm no doctor, but if any of those issues are PD things, maybe this website can help you name the things you experienced.

Top 100 Traits & Behaviors — Out of the FOG | Personality Disorders, Narcissism, NPD, BPD

of Personality-Disordered Individuals
outofthefog.website outofthefog.website

Galagirl
 
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Hi lavendarboi,

I'm very sorry that your partners are not supporting you in your experience of how Jazz treated you. I do not think you are out of pocket. You know what happened. You are not just imagining it. In a way, Shay and Ester are gaslighting you. They are acting like the things that happened to you never happened. You are not crazy. You know what Jazz said and how they treated you.

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.
 
Bobbi said:
This is written in a way that’s all over the map. I can’t really follow it, but I'll share my thoughts based on what I am gathering.

1. Each person is entitled to have any kind of relationship with whomever they want. Even if you were harmed by that person, that doesn't mean others should shun them because of what happened to you.
2. Each person has a personal relationship with each individual. How a person acted with you may not be how they act with another. Your friends know your experience and now can now be on the lookout for those red flags, but have the right to experience that person for themselves.
3. Closure is chosen. Nobody has to participate for it to happen. You decide you are done and accept what happened as your experience and work YOURSELF to move past it through feelings, grief and forgiveness. Nobody’s input is needed.
4. You can choose not to associate with or hear anything about this person if your friends/partners still want them in their lives. Voice your boundary on that and enforce it when it comes up.

I hope you can move past this to have happy relationships with those you still want that with.
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I used to believe these exact things, but after this experience I am realizing how important trust and safety is in relationships. This person continually lied to me in order to continue a sexual relationship with me, because they knew if they asked to de-escalate I would take sex off the table. Personally, I would not want to be friends with someone who could treat someone that way. It makes me question how much I can trust my friends and partners when they continue to invalidate my experience with Jazz.

Jazz does not deny that they treated me without care or consideration. They just blame their behaviour on their depression and say that they weren't ready to be in a capital R, Relationship, but didn't know how to tell me yet.

A week before we ended things, I took two weeks of space with no contact and asked them to consider how they wanted to move forward in our relationship, whether that was de-escalation or to continue forward collaborating, saying that I was open to either one. When we came back together, they said that they wanted to continue forward and literally doubled down by telling me that they were in love with me and that they wanted us to live together. But a week later, they told me that everything they said to me were things that they would say to anyone, and that I was making something out of the relationship that it wasn't.

This is pretty concerning behavior for anyone, whether they're your friend or not. I personally would not want to be friends with someone who would treat me that way, or that would treat someone that I love and care about that way. I'm not saying that Shay has to not be friends with Jazz. I'm saying that if Shay does decide to be friends with Jazz, that means that Shay and I can no longer continue on in a romantic capacity and that my choice will be to deescalate to a friends-only situation, because I cannot trust Shay and their judgment. That also means that Shay and I do not share the same values, and that's okay.

I have absolutely been doing the things that I need to do to take care of myself. I am very lucky in that I have a very close network of friends outside of my romantic relationships, who support me and love me, and show me that every day.
 
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