boundary setting in relationships

[Sisilisko]

I've recently realized that I tend to remain in unhealthy relationships much longer than needed. I suppose having clear boundaries would help with that.

As I see it now, the word "boundary" applies to two somewhat separate concepts:

1) a boundary determining whether to stay in a relationship: having clear (conscious and also unconscious) rules about whom not to date and when to immediately and irrevocably break up, i.e., being aware of red flags and acting immediately upon spotting them, especially early in the relationship
- e.g. I have a strict conscious boundary that if anyone commits any kind of physical violence against me for a second time (e.g. gives me a slap during an argument; it doesn't have to be anything huge), I will immediately break up with them; I actually have never needed to follow that rule, probably because my subconscious boundary is that I don't even start dating people who would ever attack me physically

2) a boundary during the course of a relationship: communicating how I wish to be treated and what consequences will it have if I am not treated like that, where the intention is to preferably persuade the partner to treat me respectfully, and if that cannot be achieved, then to minimize the negative impact upon me
- e.g.:

If boundaries, and thus “consistent boundaries,” are what we place on ourselves, if those are crossed, we do X. One of the ones we see a lot of here during the NRE phase is device use during spouse date night/time. My personal boundary is to terminate the date. Get up and remove myself from the activity. NO where could that be considered punishment. It’s a consequence. "If you’re not that interested in me right now, that's okay. I’m not that interested getting some fraction of your attention or interest."

- examples from my relationship with Fasaani - these were both at least in part driven by his ADHD:
- I've stated that I will cancel any dates for which he comes more than certain amount of time late, unless he calls in advance and tells me, because I did not want to be repeatedly put in the situation of waiting for him and not knowing for how long I'll have to wait
- we've had frequent arguments about money (there was an agreement about splitting costs but Fasaani wasn't keeping his end of it), until after many months I simply communicated that unless he pays his part of our common bills by the end of each month, I will have to break up with him in order to maintain self-respect; this immediately improved the situation in the sense that Fasaani finally understood how disrespectful it is not to uphold his financial commitments, started putting more effort into making money and was somewhat more reliably covering the agreed part of expenses

As you can see, all three of these examples have one thing in common - they go along the lines of "rather than accepting the behaviour that hurts me and feels disrespectful, I am willing to give up on a part (or all) of our relationship"; as such, the boundary is really leaving the partner in the space "outside". To me, setting such a boundary requires giving up on the hope that we can amicably come up with a better solution to an issue that's hurting me. It requires armouring myself with certain level of coldness and even aggression in order to protect myself from greater hurt caused by unmet expectations. Basically, it is a proof that I have to use force in order to signal that my needs are being neglected, and in order to protect myself in the relationship.

As such, I wonder how to recognize that purely the fact that we've come to a point that I need to set a (type 2) boundary should be a red flag, and probably should mean that instead of setting the boundary I should simply walk away.

I am also wondering whether you have your own examples of setting boundaries that work for you and that do not feel forceful or like a work-around for accepting a relationship with someone who's not treating you kindly and respectfully.

 

[Magdlyn]

I don't see boundary-setting as using force or being forceful.

I see it as self-respect, looking out for yourself as your own primary, making sure you yourself are comfortable, and not giving too much, or giving in, or being walked on like a dirty throw rug.

I think people mix up assertiveness and aggression all the time. You can be assertive, clear and calm. Aggression is violence.

Think of a boundary as a wall, or a fence. Whether it is a waist-high picket fence, or an eight-foot stone wall, it's a signal that you have certain expectations, which, if not met, will cause you to walk away.

Sometimes people say a boundary feels "too much" like an ultimatum. "If you do X, I will do Y." So be it! People treat you the way you let them treat you. If you are self-respecting and have clear boundaries, you will be respected. If you do not, you will be taken advantage of.

If you have clear boundaries, you will attract people who also have clear boundaries, and this will be healthy and pleasant and feel like mutual support. There will be less confusion, waffling, lies, sadness and fighting. Who wouldn't want that?

 

[Sisilisko]

@Magdlyn You're right, the word assertiveness did not come to my mind but it better captures what I meant. (English is not my native language.)

You describe boundary setting as a form of wall or fence. As a form of making sure I am not giving too much, or giving in, or being walked on like a dirty rug.

My question remains: if I find myself communicating a boundary to a partner, is it a red flag? It still seems to me that in a healthy relationship, there should be no reason to do so. There should be no reason to build fences because the other person knows how to behave in my personal space, is trying to recognize when/how far they are welcome, and if they accidentally do something hurtful, I can simply tell them and they'll adjust their behaviour accordingly. There should never be a reason to communicate a boundary.

 

[Tinwen]

[I know Sisilisko from offline]

I think narrowing boundaries to "if you do this, I'll do that" is too much for the sake of this discussion. We can call that a boundary, but I'm not sure that's all that people mean when they talk about the necessity of having "healthy boundaries".

I think "healthy boundaries" means knowing thyself well, and being clear on your needs and preferences, thus knowing what you can accept longterm and what you can't.
I think "healthy boundaries" means knowing where I start and end, thus not having my own personality overwritten by a partners personality or expectations.
I think "healthy boundaries" means a level of emotional independence where the need to be with your partner never becomes all-consuming. (this, I believe, is the borderline feature we both tend to struggle with)
I think "healthy boundaries" means a good grasp of reality and well-formed expectations.
I think "healthy boundaries" also means using those "if/then" fences when needed, but this really comes naturally from having the previous points in place.
I think "healthy boundaries" also means knowing when communicating a preference is enough (that's hopefully usually the case), when you need a clear "if/then" to support you, and when it's time for a breakup.
I think almost no one has healthy boundaries, but we can improve a lot.

To defend "if/then" type boundaries, I think they ARE needed in every relationships, but hopefully those big ones you speak about are not needed often. Try to think of a "if/then" decision that didn't hurt as much, it didn't feel like diminishing a relationship. Perhaps with friends...? "If you're coming late, we will start the circle without you." --not many hard feelings there.
With a partner... "If you're not going to the mountains with me, I'll go with friends instead." -- that's also a "if/then" boundary. For most people, it's probably not worth breaking up over this boundary, some would even say, it's a benefit to have separate interests and spend some part of their vacations on their own. Maybe for you this already feels like losing an important part you'd like to have in a relationship and that's ok, but "objectively" it hardly means your partner doesn't respect you. He doesn't like mountains.

"If my partner accidentally does something hurtful, I will tell them"... this is a basic boundary. It would be silly to expect your partner to know 100% perfectly how to behave in your space. Now, your question is "what if they continue to do the hurtful thing". "What if I need to pull away from closeness with this person, because they are hurting me and can't adjust? Pulling away hurts, is it even worth it to have a relationship where I have to pull away because they won't adjust?"

I don't have a clear answer, I just want to broaden the discussion field.
Maybe having to set a boundary about something as basic as money is indeed a red flag warranting a breakup instead. Maybe every boundary which to you feels like killing a part of the relatioship is indeed like that. Maybe some of them (non of the examples) point at areas of unhealthy dependence instead. Maybe some are just the expression of an imperfect world.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello Sisilisko,

Setting boundaries helps to end unhealthy relationships in a timely fashion. There are extreme boundaries for things like physical violence, and there are milder boundaries, often with lesser consequences, for things like common courtesy and responsibility. It's important to have both kinds of boundaries.

We can't predict every scenario that will call for a boundary; sometimes we have to apply a new boundary immediately upon experiencing the negative behavior. This may not look like a boundary, but I consider it to be a boundary. Common sense lets us know when we are being treated in an unacceptable way. There can be warnings -- "Don't do that again" -- but there is also a limit to how many times we will tolerate a certain behavior.

In the early years of my poly relationship, things were hard and I reached a point where I needed a boundary. Basically, I told my two companions (my partner and my metamour) that I was setting a limit of one year for things to get better. If the one year expired and things were just as bad, I was going to have to make some hard decisions. Fortunately things got better almost right away, so I didn't have to apply the consequence of that particular boundary.

Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[Sisilisko]

I think "healthy boundaries" means knowing thyself well, and being clear on your needs and preferences, thus knowing what you can accept longterm and what you can't.
I think "healthy boundaries" means knowing where I start and end, thus not having my own personality overwritten by a partners personality or expectations.
I think "healthy boundaries" means a level of emotional independence where the need to be with your partner never becomes all-consuming. (this, I believe, is the borderline feature we both tend to struggle with)
I think "healthy boundaries" means a good grasp of reality and well-formed expectations.
I think "healthy boundaries" also means using those "if/then" fences when needed, but this really comes naturally from having the previous points in place.
I think "healthy boundaries" also means knowing when communicating a preference is enough (that's hopefully usually the case), when you need a clear "if/then" to support you, and when it's time for a breakup.

That, in my opinion, falls under my type 1 (being clear about when not to start a relationship or to leave if it already started). I don't have any hesitations about the need for and healthiness of type 1 boundaries. My question is really only about type 2 (if - then) boundaries; I've edited the question a little to make it clearer.

Try to think of a "if/then" decision that didn't hurt as much, it didn't feel like diminishing a relationship. Perhaps with friends...? "If you're coming late, we will start the circle without you." --not many hard feelings there.
With a partner... "If you're not going to the mountains with me, I'll go with friends instead." -- that's also a "if/then" boundary.

For each of these two examples, I imagine two possible scenarios: in one scenario, the statement does not feel like diminishing a relationship, it's not uttered in hope that it will influence a partner's decisions, and I would not call it a boundary; in the other, it does feel like diminishing the relationship, I'd hope the person will adjust their behaviour accordingly, I think it is what people normally mean when they say that you should set a boundary, and I also think that having to set the same boundary on multiple occasions would be a red flag.

"What if I need to pull away from closeness with this person, because they are hurting me and can't adjust? Pulling away hurts, is it even worth it to have a relationship where I have to pull away because they won't adjust?"

I don't have a clear answer, I just want to broaden the discussion field.
Maybe having to set a boundary about something as basic as money is indeed a red flag warranting a breakup instead. Maybe every boundary which to you feels like killing a part of the relatioship is indeed like that.

Here you've nailed the core of my question.

In the early years of my poly relationship, things were hard and I reached a point where I needed a boundary. Basically, I told my two companions (my partner and my metamour) that I was setting a limit of one year for things to get better. If the one year expired and things were just as bad, I was going to have to make some hard decisions. Fortunately things got better almost right away, so I didn't have to apply the consequence of that particular boundary.

Thanks for that example. Does this pertain to your current long term relationship? I am asking because I know your current relationship is very long term, so it would be a good example of a serious boundary that worked out well in the long term.

 

[Tinwen]

For each of these two examples, I imagine two possible scenarios: in one scenario, the statement does not feel like diminishing a relationship, it's not uttered in hope that it will influence a partner's decisions, and I would not call it a boundary; in the other, it does feel like diminishing the relationship, I'd hope the person will adjust their behaviour accordingly, I think it is what people normally mean when they say that you should set a boundary, and I also think that having to set the same boundary on multiple occasions would be a red flag.

I disagree. The first case is exactly what I call a boundary. It's there to protect you.

The second case sounds shady. If you want to change someone, it becomes really unclear what is a boundary and what is an ultimatum, a demand, a threat or manipulation.

People do use the word boundary meaning you should fight back when someone treats you poorly, but often what they expect you to do there is really fuzzy. It's not what I connect with this "if you'll do this, I'll do that" clause.

 

[Magdlyn]

I wouldn't call the scenario of, "If you won't go to the mountains with me, I will go with my friend(s)" a boundary. It's just a normal life thing.

Like, I wouldn't expect most male partners would want to go get a pedicure with me, so I will go with my female partner (or my sister or a friend, whoever). This isn't a boundary, it's just a matter of an interest, or a taste, or even a health choice. (I partly get pedis for foot health.)

Boundaries, to me, are like hard and soft limits in BDSM. What is comfortable? What is healthy? What do you need to feel heard, to feel respected, to feel safe?

The most common boundary, perhaps, in polyamory is to know what the sex health of your partner is. Have they used a condom in their last sexual encounter with someone else? Have they been tested lately, if we are in an open relationship? Have their partners been tested within 3-6 months? This is a health boundary, around disease and pregnancy prevention.

Another common boundary is to limit the use of phones when on an actual date, so the partners can and will focus on each other. This is to show respect, or to honor quality time.

Other boundaries focus around a fair distribution of time, and coming to an agreement around who sleeps where, who has sex where. This is a comfort boundary.

Another boundary (for me) is taking the time to have serious talks when needed, instead of sweeping issues under the rug, and making sure those talks use "I statements" and don't include yelling or sarcasm, cussing each other out, and definitely no violence. If we needed counseling, I'd expect a partner to go with me. "We are having a difficult problem. We need help. I want you to go to couples counseling with me. If you won't, I am seriously considering ending our relationship." That's an extreme case of a boundary.

I guess there is a similarity between preferences and boundaries. And both can shift over time, so renegotiations are necessary.

 

[Tinwen]

I wouldn't call the scenario of, "If you won't go to the mountains with me, I will go with my friend(s)" a boundary. It's just a normal life thing.

What I'm trying to say is, there is a spectrum from "normal life things" to "I need to leave for my safety", which all work in fact similar. For me, following my preference despite, perhaps, being disappointed that we can't spend all vacation together, is a boundary.
Sisilisko is giving examples of boundaries which are quite serious/ deal breakers. I think it's important to perceive the whole spectrum and understand how often we set minor ones without agonising too much about each.

 

[kdt26417]

Re: "Thanks for that example. Does this pertain to your current long term relationship? I am asking because I know your current relationship is very long term, so it would be a good example of a serious boundary that worked out well in the long term." ... Glad if I could help. Yes, it is the same poly relationship as the one I have today. The years have been kind to us. Each year that passes, things get a little easier for the three of us. We have a pleasantly boring relationship today, LOL.

 

[YesThisIsDog242]

Boundaries are interesting. I read a book about them, and it was a great read. She brought up a lot of concise examples and discussed different types of relationship dynamics.

Something she emphasized was that you can never control others actions, but you can control your reactions to them. I think “if you’re late and don’t communicate, I’m going to cancel the date.” is a solid example of a harder boundary setting.

What she also brought up is that often it’s good to have an escalating system of expressing a boundary. For less distressing situations, it can sometimes be better to start with some more light-hearted signals and then escalate in clarity, and then introduce consequences if they ignore your clear boundary statement.

For an example, being at a party where people are drinking. Your friends say you should get a drink.

Examples of escalating communication, starting with:

“You go on ahead! I’m sticking with water.”

“I’m not drinking tonight. Please stop asking me.”

“Your persistence is making me uncomfortable. I’m going to leave if you keep pushing.”

Of course, you’re allowed to leave at any point, for any reason, especially since they shouldn’t ask more than once anyway. But there’s times where people either: don’t pick up on lighter cues or don’t take you seriously. So it’s nice to have the tools to communicate where you’re at even if you don’t always need to do so.

Ultimatums have a place, but they’re definitely not a sustainable tool. They’re usually after a person has already been ignoring previous requests. I also don’t think all ultimatums can be classified as boundaries.

Book I’m talking about: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/60706850-the-book-of-boundaries

I’m usually not one for self-help books, but I genuinely like her. She covers a lot of ground, and she doesn’t think boundary setting is an end-all-be-all. Pretty nuanced writing.

 

[Evie]

Back in the days before phones, if I had a date planned, and the person was 15 mins late, I'd leave. That was my boundary. I didn't even communicate it to them. It was the 90s and 15 mins was extremely normal. Not everyone had phones, and there was every chance the phone would be flat since those batteries lasted 4-6 hours, but those boundaries weren't always ominous, they were just so we didn't end up sitting there feeling silly.

Of course we all had the physical violence boundary, too. First hit, not second, though.

I wish I'd had more understanding of the in-between bits. The "red flags" that don't always mean DANGER but mean definitely incompatible. Compatibility (mid-long term) is actually really hard to find. And that's okay. I wish I knew then it was okay. That just because abc is fine doesn't means that xyz isn't a deal-breaker.

if I find myself communicating a boundary to a partner, is it a red flag?

Sometimes, yes. It's honestly probably even more of a red flag if you've given up communicating those boundaries, and more so if you've not ever felt able to communicate them, then definitely - get out of there and find someone less intimidating. Or someone who isn't constantly pushing you.

How many "little" boundaries do you need to communicate before you find your hard line and walk away? Surely you've seen the tiktoks or similar about, "it was such a surprise when she left!" - "no it wasn't, to her".

Long term compatible isn't a given, you're allowed to walk away from someone who isn't growing into that with you.

 

[Tinwen]

After sleeping on this thread a few times, I think perhaps the red flag is not setting a boundary, but having to set a boundary because of disrespect. The red flag is disrespect itself.

There are boundaries that happen because of incompatibility or incompetence. I actually have a ton of these with Meta, or the Meta-Idealist couple. They are weak boundaries that have exceptions, like I very often will use the train when going somewhere although it would make sense to join them in their car, because they tend to be hours late with the departure [also partly because of her adhd too].

Having to set a boundary because of repeated disrespect is something else. I do think you might indeed want to firm up there. With an inner conviction that disrespect is not an option, you will say a firm no or set a boundary far sooner (after first occurence is appropriate) and see if they can meet your standards much sooner. Yes, you may speed up your process of vetting incompatible partners this way.

So in a twisted way I agree with the conclusion of your original post.

 

[dingedheart]

Wow it’s funny to see a quote from me on a thread I didn’t post on.

That being said, I think the overall topic here is the communicating expectations vs a hard personal boundary. Aligning expectations with the use and enforcement of boundaries.

But this scale gets super wonky in applications sometimes during the NRE phase. New partners might get complete passes on all kinds of stuff while a 10-yr spouse will get zero grace. I’m sure you could flip that around too, but I’ve never heard of an example of the reverse.