Sanity check?

I would have no problem relaying any details. She is the one who had established that she didn't want to know what happened.
Yeah, sure. It's a process, it's totally ok to try one end of the scale and see how it fits.

With details though, there is also always a concern for privacy of the third person/ prospective partner - the original couple may be comfortable sharing more than they would like their "metamour" to know, so it is often better to stick to the low-detail end.
 
Yeah, sure. It's a process, it's totally ok to try one end of the scale and see how it fits.

With details though, there is also always a concern for privacy of the third person/ prospective partner - the original couple may be comfortable sharing more than they would like their "metamour" to know, so it is often better to stick to the low-detail end.
I can definitely understand that. Not that im looking at anyone else at this time, but I certainly see what you mean about breaking a third person's right to privacy.
 
This is the same person who said she wants to separate so she can move in with her new bf? There are some conflicting messages and feelings going on.
 
You'll work that out :)
Personally I would not be happy without an overall picture - not a play by play, but I like to hear and tell as much as "I met such and such, we had tea, were/weren't intimate, the mood was great/ we had a fight and now I'm feeling ___". That's kind of enough not create a blank space between me and my partner, and not much more detail then we'd give on a typical "how was your day" question.
You're assuming here that lostinlove went on an actual date. Right now he's just taking himself out, as per "The most skipped step."

When either of my partners sees their other long-term partner, I do not expect to hear every detail. Certainly not with Pixi, since she sees Malachi every week. They may or may not "be intimate" (you mean have sex, I suppose), and I really could not care less. And she stays a few days in a row, so getting a lot of details, like if/when they had tea, would take too long. lol Eventually I might find out what Malachi cooked for the most recent dinner, or maybe about a show or movie they watched, especially if it was really good and she wants to rewatch it with me. Or if they visit his brother, niece and nephew, she'll mention some of the cute things the kids did. It isn't a requirement to tell me anything the moment she comes home. It just kind of comes out naturally in the course of our time together.

Aries's gf of one year and a bit... he may or may not have sex when he sees her, but last week we were having him come here for the night after being with her for the day (for some kind of scheduling thing), and I really don't prefer to be with him right after he's had sex with another woman. At least, not yet. It's just a weird visceral thing I have. So he let me know she wasn't feeling well and there wasn't any "hanky panky."
 
You're assuming here that lostinlove went on an actual date. Right now he's just taking himself out, as per "The most skipped step."
Actually, I'm not assuming he went on a date... I was, however, assuming 1. he might, 2. that his wife's request to skip the detail may have come from a place of jealousy if he did. The second needn't be true, of course, and it doesn't matter much. I was just offering one way to communicate something in between "play by play" and "no info".
When either of my partners sees their other long-term partner, I do not expect to hear every detail. Certainly not with Pixi, since she sees Malachi every week. They may or may not "be intimate" (you mean have sex, I suppose), and I really could not care less. And she stays a few days in a row, so getting a lot of details, like if/when they had tea, would take too long. lol Eventually I might find out what Malachi cooked for the most recent dinner, or maybe about a show or movie they watched, especially if it was really good and she wants to rewatch it with me. Or if they visit his brother, niece and nephew, she'll mention some of the cute things the kids did. It isn't a requirement to tell me anything the moment she comes home. It just kind of comes out naturally in the course of our time together.

Aries' gf of one year and a bit... he may or may not have sex when he sees her, but last week we were having him come here for the night after being with her for the day (for some kind of scheduling thing), and I really don't prefer to be with him right after he's had sex with another woman. At least, not yet. It's just a weird visceral thing I have. So he let me know she wasn't feeling well and there wasn't any "hanky panky."

We're spending much less time apart with Idealist than you do with Pixi, so it's different. I usually know what he does if he goes out for the evening, and not talking about it just because it was a date with would feel weird. He also doesn't have dates often at all, and it's also different whether he sees a new ropepartner (I wasn't talking about sex, lol O:)) - I want at least some picture how that went! - or if he's upstairs with Meta. I'm also not interested in hearing about their intimacy (of any kind), ick.
So we're actually not very different, just some individual sensitivities there.
 
As of right now, since I'm not seeing anyone else, I don't have to worry too much about finding the right balance of telling/not telling/telling some, but all of this will definitely be something I talk to my wife about and find what's right for us.

What is actually super helpful right now is for me to discuss her other relationship with her. It started purely sexual, and I wanted those details, but as things progressed that became less and less, and now I essentially get told nothing unless it would cause her to possibly not answer a text or call from me so that I don't freak out. Where we are now, I feel that I would like some basic things: "We had dinner, watched a movie, played some games, etc." And I will be talking to her tonight on finding out her comfort level on it so we can find a reasonable middle-ground. The timing is really great, as tomorrow is one of the nights she spends time with him, until about 10pm, when she comes home, since she works the following day.
 
The timing is really great, as tomorrow is one of the nights she spends time with him, until about 10pm, when she comes home, since she works the following day.

It's 10 PM and she has work the next day. Presumably she's coming home to sleep, right? Why is that great timing for a talk? You and she agreed to talk already? You both are coming to this prepared? It's not the deep talk, it's just a short 5 min "Let's set an appointment time to talk" to sort calendar?

Where we are now I feel that I would like some basic things: "we had dinner, watched a movie, played some games, etc...".

It's fair to want to talk about clearer expectations moving forward, and what are TMI details and what are not. But don't shortchange yourself or her by trying to "squeeze it in" whenever, if you meant you were going to have the big talk. Certainly don't suggest it from the sky if she's home from a date and wanting to sleep to show up to work rested and prepared.

Could reading about RADAR help you?


HOW you bring things up matters.

Galagirl
 
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It's 10 PM and she has work the next day. Presumably she's coming home to sleep, right? Why is this great timing for a talk? You and her agreed to talk already? You both are coming to this prepared? It's not the deep talk, it's just a short 5 min "Let's set an appointment time to talk" to sort calendar?



It's fair to want to talk about clearer expectations moving forward and what is TMI details and what is not. But don't shortchange yourself or her by trying to "squeeze it in" whenever if you meant you were going to have the big talk. Certainly don't suggest it from the sky if she's home from a date and wanting to sleep to show up to work rested and prepared.

Could reading about RADAR help you?


HOW you bring things up matters.

Galagirl
The timing was good as that I had a point of reference like: after you go see him tomorrow, it would make me feel more comfortable if you could give me some basic details (we went for a walk, watched a movie, things like that). So that it was something we could put into practice right away.

We talked about it the day before she went and I made sure we had time to talk and were focused on it and not like half-watching TV. Also yes, she goes over every other Tuesday for a few hours, but then comes home for the night. She stays overnight once a week, either Friday night or Saturday night (based off of his work schedule).
 
Ok, so not a positive update, but an update nonetheless: Yesterday was her day to spend with the other guy. (I'm gonna just refer to him as "L" from here on.) The plan was for him to come over in the morning to spend some time with the kids, as well as help my wife bake a cake for his family. He has met the children multiple times, so that is not the issue. I left the house because 1) I don't want to be around him currently, and 2) I don't want to take away from their time. My wife and I also agreed that during their time I will basically be no contact with her except for important things and emergencies.

However, while I was gone I had something I needed to tell my kids, but they are the worst at answering texts, so I was going to call (8 & 9). So, to make sure I wasn't going to interrupt anything, I went through our cameras in the house to check where everyone was and what they were doing. Nowhere on any camera could I see my wife and L, just my youngest on the couch alone.

I call my youngest and ask, "Where's your mother?" and she tells me in the bathroom. Obviously next question is, "Where is L?" She has no idea... We have a camera in the bathroom that looks out over the backyard, but you can pick up sounds from inside, and sure enough I hear them both. So after getting no response from her by phone for 5 minutes, I announce over the camera's speaker: "You need to call me."

As it turns out, essentially she went to take a shower and he went into the bathroom with her. He didn't shower, but he was in there, with our kids in the other room; our kids who are old enough to understand you can love more than one person, but have no concept about sexual relationships. I guess she just didn't think about it because she and I are in there together a lot and that's fine; she didn't consider being in there with a 20 year old that she isn't married to was inappropriate or potentially might cause concerns with the kids.

I talked to her about it this evening and that's when I got that info about it. I have a few things about it that really make me so damn upset. 1) That it seems all common sense and idea of maturity and/or responsibility just went out the window, 2) This isn't the first time a similar thing happened. Short version, they were in there together (no kids around) and it bothered me them being in OUR house behind a closed door like that, with me here. She knows how much it bothered me and agreed not to do it again. And 3) She didn't, and to this very minute, still has not actually apologized.

I'm not asking if I'm justified in my feelings, because I see no way not to be. I guess I'm asking if there's any way to really handle/address this that will matter. Also just to get a general consensus from everyone what they would do or react to something like this.
 
Sorry, I must be dumb. What's the exact concern about kids again? As far as I understand, nothing sexual was going on, so the worry is they might THINK something sexual was going on? Or like giving a bad example, because men and women should not go to the same bathroom unless they are married? Is it he's been introduced as a friend and this is breaking the pretense?

If they know Mom loves this man, why would they be concerned that he talks to her in the bathroom just like Dad?

What can be done? Talk from a calmer place.

If he's around the kids, what else is off limits and exclusive to marriage? You might have to negotiate that in much more detail (and I image you might get some pushback). I'm afraid I don't see a default "common sense" social norm to fall back on here.

Asking him how he understands his role around the kids (once emotions calm down) and pointing out if the situation wasn't in line with that might help too. If he's young, he probably hasn't thought deeply about it.

Having said that, I'd absolutely hate to have a metamour at my home and probably would not offer this kind of space, so there's that. :/ I empathize that this situation is genuinely difficult.
 
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What's the exact concern about kids again? As far as I understand, nothing sexual was going on, so the worry is they might THINK something sexual was going on? Or like giving a bad example, because men and women should not go to the same bathroom unless they are married? Is it he's been introduced as a friend and this is breaking the pretense?
If they know Mom loves this man, why would they be concerned that he talks to her in the bathroom, just like Dad?

What can be done> Talk from a calmer place.
If he's around the kids, what else is off limits and exclusive to marriage? You might have to negotiate that in much more detail (and I image you might get some pushback). I'm afraid I don't see a default "common sense" social norm to fall back on here.
Asking him how he understands his role around the kids (once emotions calm down) and pointing out if the situation wasn't in line with that might help too. If he's young, he probably hasn't thought deeply about it.

Having said that, I'd absolutely hate to have a metamour at my home and probably would not offer this kind of space, so there's that. :/ I empathize that this situation is genuinely difficult.
You make a fair enough point, I can admit that. We have explained to the kids about loving more than one person, but we haven't fully explained her connection with him to them. Basically my concern is how it will affect the kids emotionally if they make that intimate and connection between him and my wife, not having the full explanation; especially with me not being around at all. Also, the whole pretense for him coming over was so that he and the kids could spend time and interact, play games, whatever. But instead they isolated themselves with no thought about it.

It makes me a bit concerned about what other boundaries I've spoken to her about are being ignored or completely crossed. Trust has always been a very big deal for my wife, and all of a sudden it seems to matter less (because of their NRE, I'm guessing).

The "common sense" is not just applied to this. There have been other times as well where it seems to be lacking. Some of that being if I wasn't okay with it when I was around, why would it be okay now? I've said multiple times, what they do at his (parents) house is between them, but I at least deserve a say in what happens in the house I live.
 
What's the exact concern about kids, again? As far as I understand, nothing sexual was going on, so the worry is they might THINK something sexual was going on?
Mom's naked in bathroom with her friend/boyfriend, and then jumps in the shower, and the assumption is nothing sexual happened behind closed doors, with water running to cover the noise?

Not sure what the average shower habits or bathroom habits of people around children are, but I think lostinlove has legitimate concerns.

Hypothetical question: would she/he/they feel comfortable to pull the same thing while lostinlove was in the house… not a big deal... normalized?

Late edit: God, you better hope she’s not buying or providing him with alcohol. That could open up another whole world of shit.
 
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Wife is 39 and dating 20-year old L.? I'm surprised the age wasn't in your original post. And you originally wanted to be involved in group sex with her and him in some fashion? A 20-year old is barely into young adulthood. Age gaps like that can be problematic on their own even without your kids involved with meeting the new BF this early. Would you and your wife feel comfortable if your kids were 20 and dating a 39-year-old? Or two 39s hitting them up for some kind of group sex?

I get why this recent date is bothering you, but parts of this situation seem avoidable.
  • Decide with Mom how old the youngest kid should be before you tell them you and Mom are practicing polyamory.
  • Agree with Mom that neither of you introduces dating partners to the kids this fast any more. Dates happen elsewhere, not at the kids' home.
  • Agree with Mom that dating partners only get to meet the kids if they've stuck around for ____ months/years. Mom walks it back with this BF. No hanging out with the kids this soon.
  • If you’re worried about boundaries, you probably shouldn’t be leaving the kids in the house while the BF is there.
I get that you don't want to be around him much, but you also don’t trust her right now, after so many boundary issues. Put your kids first — either stay home with them or take them with you.

Right now, the kids either had a guy alone with them while your wife was in the shower, or they were left alone unsupervised while the two of them were in the bathroom together. Neither scenario sounds like great judgment with kids that age.

You also said you haven’t really explained the poly nature of the relationship to them yet, which makes situations like this even more confusing for them. Or they are fine, but might innocently repeat something at school or to relatives without understanding it. And then, here come new problems.

If this guy is still new enough that you're worried about boundaries and trust, it’s fair to ask yourself — why are you and your wife okay with him being around the kids this much this soon? Did new-to-poly issues distract you from considering parenting boundaries? A lot of parents intentionally wait a long time before introducing dating partners to kids because they don’t know if the new partner is safe around children.

If she keeps pushing past boundaries you’ve already raised, how do you usually enforce them? Do you actually put your foot down? Or just move the goal post and there's no real enforcing or consequence?

Can you two make a clear agreement that dates happen elsewhere, not in the house where the kids live? What they do at his place is their business, but you should still get a say in what happens in your home and around your kids. You also stick with that agreement if/when you poly date. You have your dates not at the house with the kids, and you do not let partners meet the kids until much later, preferably after NRE is over. Or maybe longer, because you want the youngest to be a certain age first.

It’s also worth thinking about the long term. If you two ever split and have shared custody, you’ll probably want clear expectations about dating partners around the kids anyway.

At the same time, a couple things in your story might make it harder for her to hear your concerns: you leaving the house but checking cameras to monitor things could be taken like you were spying. Calling the kids about something that apparently couldn’t wait? Why not just come home to tell them if it's so urgent? Why interrupt her date? Behaviors like that can easily turn the conversation into, “Oh, yeah? Me doing __? What about YOU doing ____?” instead of focusing on the boundaries you’re trying to set regarding the kids' safety (physical, mental, emotional).

I kinda wish you two would SLOW DOWN some. :(

Any closer to a couples counseling appointment?

Galagirl
 
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Yesterday was her day to spend with the other guy, L. The plan was for him to come over in the morning to spend some time with the kids, as well as help my wife bake a cake for his family. He has met the children multiple times, so that is not the issue. I left the house because 1) I don't want to be around him currently, and 2) I don't want to take away from their time. My wife and I also agreed that during their time I will basically be no contact with her except for important things and emergencies.

However, while I was gone I had something I needed to tell my kids, but they are the worst at answering texts, so I was going to call (8 & 9). So, to make sure I wasn't going to interrupt anything, I went through our cameras in the house to check where everyone was and what they were doing. Nowhere on any camera could I see my wife and L, just my youngest on the couch alone.
You said earlier you didn't want to invade your wife and L's privacy, yet you felt it was no problem to spy around the house to see where they were? I don't understand why you did that. It doesn't seem horrible to me to have an 8-year old sitting alone on the couch for a while, perhaps watching TV or playing a video game, playing with toys, whatever. If you had something important to tell the kids, why not just tell the kid the important message and move on with your day?

I don't get the spying. That seems creepy.
I call my youngest and ask, "Where's your mother?" and she tells me in the bathroom.
You said the kids don't answer texts, but apparently they answer the phone. Why not just tell your daughter the important message you had for them? Why interrupt your wife's date? You'd agreed not to do that except for an emergency.
Obviously next question is, "Where is L?" She has no idea... We have a camera in the bathroom that looks out over the backyard, but you can pick up sounds from inside, and sure enough I hear them both. So after getting no response from her by phone for 5 minutes, I announce over the camera's speaker: "You need to call me."
Whew. An ominous voice coming from the speaker during her date, "You need to call me." Wow.
As it turns out, essentially she went to take a shower and he went into the bathroom with her. He didn't shower, but he was in there, with our kids in the other room; our kids who are old enough to understand you can love more than one person, but have no concept about sexual relationships.

If they have no concept of sexual relationships, why would Mom going off to shower for a few minutes, or L being there talking to her, matter to them?

I guess she just didn't think about it because she and I are in there together a lot and that's fine; she didn't consider being in there with a 20 year old that she isn't married to was inappropriate or potentially might cause concerns with the kids.
That's a legit opinion, you know, depending on the family culture.

When you and wife are often in the bathroom together, is it just to talk, or shower together, or sneak a quickie? I'd say if the kids are used to this happening, and the door is locked if you're fucking, wife has a right to do it with L, also.

But yeah, you "buried the lead" here by just casually mentioning your wife is (seriously?) dating a very young man half her age. And you want to have sex with him too. I'm not against age gaps, per se, unless the younger person is that young, very early 20s. They are naive and can be taken advantage of.
I have a few things about it that really make me so damn upset. 1) That it seems all common sense and idea of maturity and/or responsibility just went out the window, 2) This isn't the first time a similar thing happened. Short version, they were in there together (no kids around) and it bothered me them being in OUR house behind a closed door like that, with me here. She knows how much it bothered me and agreed not to do it again. And 3) She didn't, and to this very minute, still has not actually apologized.
You do need to figure out if your wife has your consent to date as she wishes or not, whether you're in the house, or not. Not to be mean, but I can see her wanting to separate as a bid for more independence, less entanglement. But you denied her that by having and checking spy cams all over the house, even in the bathroom.

If you no longer want the kids around the "big kid," don't let them be. It is a bit sketchy if wife and L went off to have a quickie in the bathroom with the kids milling around the house, IMO. But again, if they are used to you and wife doing it, it might not be a big deal at all.
I'm not asking if I'm justified in my feelings, because I see no way not to be. I guess I'm asking if there's any way to really handle/address this that will matter. Also just to get a general consensus from everyone what they would do or react to something like this.
We have lots of threads here about children and polyamory, which you can search out. There are no hard and fast rules. Some parents are "out" as poly to their kids; other parents definitely don't want to be. Some people introduce kids to new partners rather early, others wait like, a year.
 
Let me see if I can remember to hit everything here-- bad memory, and being on a phone, I'm likely to forget something.

I didn't mention the age thing because, honestly, I didn't plan to get this deep in the relationship on here; it was mainly a way for me to "talk" out the extreme feelings I had at that time. But you all have been understanding and gave support not just blindly to me, but in a way to try and help me make the relationship better as a whole. If it will make things a bit less confusing and convoluted, I have no problem making a new post and lay out the details better that way.

The timing of me contacting the kids could not wait more than like 30 minutes because essentially I needed to make sure they remembered to take something with them. It's normally something I take them to, but my wife and L were going to take them that morning. I only checked the cameras at that point to try and be a bit more considerate of what might be going on. Like if they were all playing a game together I didn't want to call in the middle of it.

I understand that checking the cameras can be invasive, and that's why I didn't sit there and spy on them the whole time. I also understand that the whole voice thing from the camera was inappropriate, but I was very upset at the moment, as not only have we had the "bathroom" issue before, but me being unable to get a hold of her has been a problem multiple times. And both things have been discussed and I thought resolved. So if me discovering a boundary has been crossed, especially one that was clearly defined and agreed on, isn't something considered important, then how should I approach it?

If your partner agreed to, say, take someone else out to your favorite restaurant, and you see their car in the parking lot, do you just let it go, or do you call/text them and ask what's going on?

I know a lot of my trust issues have some basis in my past trauma, but in this relationship a lot also comes from a crazy amount of "it just happened" between my wife and L. Enough that sometime soon I will make a new thread with more of a detailed timeline.
 
I didn't mention the age thing because honestly I didn't plan to get this deep in the relationship on here; it was mainly a way for me to "talk" out the extreme feelings I had at that time. But you all have been understanding and gave support not just blindly to me, but in a way to try and help me make the relationship better as a whole. If it will make things a bit less confusing and convoluted, I have no problem making a new post and laying out the details better that way.
Yeah, but it backfired. Just calling would have been less intrusive in any scenario I can imagine. :) If I was your wife, I'd be furious, no matter other circumstances. But most people don't have house cameras and aren't used to checking them. Maybe it's less of an issue because you just both do check on your kids routinely.

You got a lot of backlash, but you're not the bad guy. Neither is she. I don't think the bathroom incident necessary reveals poor NRE judgement on her part (in and of itself), but that doesn't mean your wife's judgement is not off at this time.

In fact, it seems a bigger issue has been revealed, with having unclear boundaries around the kids, and that's a mess you created together, and will have to also clear up together.
 
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I struggle with L, so I'm gonna call him "Leo," ok?

Sigh. I mean this kindly, ok? Get your head back into your parenting job.

I get that you and your wife are newbies. You will make newbie mistakes. That doesn't make you bad people. But your behaviors impact others -- including your kids. Don't make kids "pay" for adults' actions.

Leo may think dating your wife is "cool," but he is not fully mature yet. 20 is closer to teen than not, so I include Leo as a "kid."

I get you are managing anxiety and other challenges with a new open marriage, but your kids have to take priority, not your anxious feelings.

The timing of me contacting the kids could not wait more than like 30 minutes. I needed to make sure they remembered to take something with them. It's normally something I take them to, but my wife and L were going to take them. I only checked the cameras to be considerate...

You called the kids/wife to remind them to take X with them when they went somewhere? I think they could've lived without it, or gone back home to get it, if they forgot. You could have let them deal with it on their own. Controlling behavior disguised as "caring" is still controlling behavior. It's not ok.

Why are there so many cameras in your home in the first place? Maybe it's time to reduce or relocate or take them down? Maybe shut off the "talking through camera" feature? What worked before may not work now.

I only checked... to try and be more considerate of what might be going on. If they were all playing a game together, I didn't want to call in the middle of it.

If it was me, I'd rather you just let me deal with remembering the item, shoot me a text about it to remind me, and then I will get to it when I get to it, or actually take a phone call from you to remind me, than have you peeking in home cameras and hearing the voice of doom going, "You need to call me." That part is creepy/spying/controlling.

You sound like you know that, and did it anyway, and are now feeling ashamed and trying to say, "But I only did it because..." to cover and not really own it. Could that be true? Is this a habit with you?

If the married parents are in the shower together, the kids learn this is something married people do. Wife and Leo are not married yet. They do not do it. But, if Mom and her "friend" are in there together, the kids learn it's ok to be in there with "friends." So, what if Leo (or not Leo, but some other dude later) tells them it's ok for them to watch them/him shower because "friends do that"? Mom's previous behavior kinda helped pave the way for a creeper, didn't it? Not everyone out there in the dating world is healthy. You could slow down people having access to your kids and your kids' home.

If you make it "normal" for you to watch them on camera, and to hear the voice of doom coming over the speaker, issuing commands, what are your kids learning is "normal" in romantic relationships? What will they accept from their own dating partners later on, doing things like that? Do they learn they do not have any space or privacy? That all partners spy on each other? That one must obey everything a partner commands? That jealousy is "normal," or "proof" they are loved? Are you gonna accidentally send them into the world "pre-groomed" and make it easier for a creeper to target them?

Even 20-yr old Leo, if this doesn't pan out with your wife, and they break up peacefully-- she's sent him out thinking it's ok to date a 39-yr old. And the next one might not be so nice to him.

Kids don't get a voice in this. They get to deal with whatever household setup the parents create/fail to create. You got to leave because you were uncomfortable around Leo. Awesome. The kids don't get that option, to just get up and take themselves elsewhere if they feel uncomfortable, not til they are older than this. Kids this small get stuck with whatever the parents provide/fail to provide.

You are asking your kids to remain in a situation you get to opt out of. Why do you do that? If this is actually about kid safety, be home to be an extra chaperone, or to be able to whisk them away. Or take them with you in the first place. Or arrange a trusted babysitter so Mom can have her in-house date with Leo and you can go out. Make it so the kids have someone on Team Kid whose sole job that day is to tend to them.

You were absent. Mom was twitterpated and distracted. Do better for your kids.

It's not fair to ask children to deal with something you get to opt out of-- Mom having her BF over.

If Mom is NRE-drunk and annoying, guess what? All her annoying behaviors are coming out for the kids too -- just maybe in different ways than for you. "Mom said her friend Leo was coming to play, but Mom parked us on the couch with a movie and hogged her friend Leo to herself."

Even without the shower thing, does this let a kid grow trust in Mom's word or not? Does this feel like micro-rejection from Mom? And you are gone, so not playing either? Is this going to set the kids up to be hungry for attention, any attention?

"Stranger danger" sometimes happens, but way more often kids are harmed by people they know, who are in their orbit. They don't need to be "pre-groomed."

I understand that checking the cameras can be invasive, and that's why I didn't sit there and spy on them the whole time... the voice from the camera was inappropriate. But I was very upset at the moment... me being unable to get a hold of her has been a problem.... If me discovering a boundary has been crossed, especially one that was agreed on, isn't considered important, then how should I approach it?

I'd come home immediately, if possible, so the kids would have an on-site chaperone I trust -- ME!

Then I'd wait until Leo went home, and their date was totally over, and I'd tell Wife I want to talk and set up a time for that. When that time comes around, I'd say:

"On your last date, I was worried about you all forgetting to take X with you. Nobody was responding to my reminder texts, and my anxiety got the best of me. I know checking on cameras is invasive, but I peeked. I apologize and take full responsibility. In future, to prevent peeking, I want to talk about relocating, reducing, or removing the cameras entirely.

I learned that you and Leo were in the bathroom together, and the kid was on the couch. I learned you didn't uphold our shared agreements. I'm not going to tell you to break up with Leo, but can we agree on no more new potentials until we get a hold of a couples counselor and go see them? I'm not happy with how we are handling opening up. This is too roller coaster for me right now, and bringing out sides of me I don't like. I want us to get through the transition better than this. We need help making agreements both of us can stick to. We both could make better agreements for kid care too."

Then you sort the rest with a counselor present, including when it's ok and when is too soon for your kids to meet a potential/dating partner.

If your partner agreed to take someone else out to your favorite restaurant, and you see their car in the parking lot, do you just let it go or do you call/text them?

People can go eat at places, including my favorite restaurant. I do not call/text them and ask what is going on. I'd assume people in restaurants are eating. If this is an open marriage, your spouse can take their date out to eat.

If this is making you so anxious that you want to latch on and control something just to feel better? You pick something better to control than favorite restaurants or where your spouse's car is parked.

You could talk to a counselor, or even a doctor, to see if anxiety meds are appropriate in your case.

But sometimes your feelings are are not "wrong" -- they are the smoke alarm telling you there's a fire. You don't smack the alarm with a hammer to get it to stop beeping, then sit on the couch while the fire burns the house down. If this is a case of-- an open marriage sounded great, you'd love to be able to do it, but you find that you actually don't have the skills for it, either pause to learn them, or let the idea go.

Originally you wanted group sex with your wife, not polyamory. Maybe you could date, on your side, someone who likes going to sex clubs for group sex (if that person is not your wife), while your wife dates on her side for polyamory. Would you be ok with a "mixed marriage" like that?

Changes are sometimes scary and come with uncomfortable feelings. That's part of the price of admission.

But if it's too much, too fast, but you are determined to change to open marriage, so the transition period can go easier on all-- SLOW DOWN. Poly has a way of magnifying all the cracks that were already there.

If she's not wanting to slow down; if you're in poly hell:


... if her dating people way too young makes you feel gross; if you are worried about your kids, there are bigger problems here than her going out to eat in a restaurant with a date.

Internet people might be able to help with one or two things, but a professional counselor may be needed when there is a whole collection of things. If there is a whole collection, you have to identify what they all are, and put them in some kind of order, and tackle them one at a time.

You might also look into support groups like www.coda.org or www.adultchildren.org, if either of those applies. Both teach people how to have healthy boundaries and recover from the things that brought them to the support group.

Galagirl
 
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I'm gonna call him Leo.

Get your head back into your parenting job.

I get you and wife are newbies. You will make newbie mistakes. But your behaviors impact others -- including all the kids. Don't make kids "pay" for adult actions.

Leo may think dating wife is "cool" but he is not fully mature yet. 20 is close to teen. I include Leo as a "kid."

I get you are managing anxiety... But your kids have to take priority.

You called kids/wife to remind them to take X with them when they went somewhere? I think they could live without it or go back home to get it fit they forgot. You could let them deal with it on their own. Controlling behavior disguised as "caring" is still controlling behavior. It's not ok.

Why are there so many cameras in this home in the first place? What worked before may not work now.

I'd rather you just let me deal with remembering the item, shoot me a text about it to remind me, and I get to it when I get to it, or actually do a phone call to remind me, than... have the voice of doom go "You need to call me." That part is creepy/spying/controlling.

You sound like you KNOW that, and did it anyway and are now feeling ashamed and tying to "But I only did it because..." to cover and not really own it. Could that be true? Is this a habit with you?

If the mom and her "friend" are in there together, the kids learn it's ok to be in there with "friends." So, what if Leo tells them it's ok for them to watch them shower because "friends do that"? Mom's previous behavior kinda helped pave the way for a creeper, didn't it? Not everyone out there in dating world is healthy people. Slow down people having access to your kids and the kids' home.

If you make it "normal" for you to watch them on camera and have voice of doom come over the speaker issuing commands, what are the kids learning is "normal" in romantic relationships? What will they accept from their own dating partners later on doing things like that? Do they learn not have any space or privacy? That all partners spy on each other? That one must obey partner commands? Jealousy is "normal" or "proof" they are loved? Are you gonna accidentally send them into the world "pre-groomed" and it easier for a creeper to target them?


Kids don't get a voice in this. They get to deal with whatever household set up the parents create/fail to create. You got to leave because you are uncomfortable around Leo. Kids don't get to just get up and take themselves elsewhere if they feel uncomfortable. Not til they are older than this. Kids this small get stuck with whatever the parents provide/fail to provide.

You are asking your kids to remain in a situation you get to opt out of. Why do you do that? If this is actually about kid safety? Be home to be an extra kid chaperone/be able to whisk them away. Or take them with you in the first place. Or arrange a trusted babysitter so Mom can have her in house date with Leo and you can go out. Make it so the kids have SOMEONE on Team Kid who's sole job that day is to tend to them.

You were absent, Mom was twitterpated and distracted. Do better for the kids.

It's not fair to ask children to deal with things you get to opt out of, Mom having her BF over.

If Mom is NRE-drunk and annoying, her annoying behaviors are coming out for the kids too. Mom said her friend Leo was coming to play, but she parked us on the couch with a movie and hogged him to herself.

Even without the shower, does this let a kid grow trust in Mom's word? Does this feel like micro-rejection from Mom, and you are gone so not playing either? Is this going to set up kids hungry for attention, any attention?

"Stranger danger" sometimes happens, but way more often kids are harmed by people they know/in their orbit. They don't need to be "pre-groomed."

I'd come home immediately if possible so the kids have an on-site chaperone I trust -- ME!
Then I wait til Leo goes home, and tell Wife I want to talk:

"On your last date, I was worried about you all forgetting to take X with you. obody was responding to my reminder texts and my anxiety got the best of me. I know checking on cameras is invasive but I peeked. I apologize and take full responsibility. In future to prevent peeking, I want to talk about relocating and reducing cameras/removing them entirely.

I learned that you and L were in the bathroom together with the kids on the couch. I learned you didn't uphold shared agreements. I'm not going to tell you to break up with Leo but can we agree no more NEW potentials til we get a hold of a couple counselor and go see them? I'm not happy with how we are handling opening up. This is too roller coaster for me right now and bringing out sides of me I don't like. I want us to get through transition better than this. We need help making agreements BOTH of us can stick to. We both could make better agreements for kid care too."

Then you sort the rest with a counselor present...


If this is making you so anxious you want to latch on and control SOMETHING just to feel better? You pick something better to control...

Talk to a doc to see if anxiety meds are appropriate...
Many of the things you touched on are things I am working on. I literally started anxiety meds 2 days ago. I'm doing counselling on a bunch of related stuff, etc.

Also, I didn't GET to leave because I was uncomfortable. I left because that was what was asked of me by my wife, and I was okay with that at the time, under the impression that they both would be there to give the kids a bit of time to get used to him being around (playing card games, Legos, whatever). I called the kids because they are 8 and 9 and forget things all the time, and their mother had no idea because this is a new activity for them and it was her first time taking them. It would not have been world-ending if they forgot, but I was trying to be a responsible parent and not let my kids go without something for a simple lack of a phone call.

I don't disagree with you about the camera stuff at all. The initial reason for the cameras was security, as well as the ability to check on the kids at times. My last job, there was a 30-minute window when the kids were back from school before I got home. That isn't the case anymore, so I will be discussing removing most of them with my wife. As to coming home, as soon as I found out what was going on, I headed home immediately, but I was 30 minutes away, and by the time I got home they had already left to drop the kids off at their event.

As to Leo in general: I don't think he's unsafe to be around the kids, but I do think things need to back up/slow down. I have actually said that many times to my wife, about their relationship in general. I will lay it out more in a new thread.

But the age thing isn't huge to me; it stems from a statement from her early on. They were friends, went out to lunch together, she revealed we were in an open relationship together, he revealed interest in her.

At that time, in her words: "Oh my god, there's no way I could ever date him. He's way too young." Two dates later, she goes to his place to watch a movie. I assume there will be some hands-on play, but just that. She comes home, beats around the bush for a few minutes, and when I finally ask straight out, she admits they had sex.

"We were messing around, and all of a sudden my pants were off."

So that's the start of my trust issues here. I wish to hell I could go back to that moment and just say, "No more. Stop seeing him," but I can't, and I didn't, and now this has rocketed out of control on me, and I'm desperately trying to cling to something and make things work.

You are 100% right, though, that no matter what, it's the kids that should be considered above everything else. No excuses or reasoning changes that. I have already told my wife that the three of us need to sit down and have a thorough discussion on where and how this all plays out going further.
 
Did you mention Leo already has a family of his own too, or was that a typo?
 
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