Hotwife to poly

[kdt26417]

That makes sense, hopefully she will develop some skills in the V area, this is new to both of you right now. Polyamory is certainly a whole different ballgame from hotwife/swinging, you can't just say "Oh it will be fine," you have to appreciate the hardship it causes on your spouse, and take steps to alleviate that hardship.

 

[Magdlyn]

Yes the break will be good and I think will be vital to see what our true needs are.

As I research and read more and we discuss this from a dynamic standpoint, two main things stand out. My wife is a really good hotwife/swinger, but has not done a good job as a "V". There hasnt been much reassurance, from the poly hell article we recognized most of the reassurance was telling me everything was going to be fine and I felt a drop off in our connection, probably due to the fact our relationship felt safe to her and she was focusing on her new connections.

Play times are never really much of an issue, that is fun for both of us, and we enjoy this. Its always the inbetween, the communication all the other this. I need to do a better job of how I react to her NRE. Between how she responds as a V and how I handle the NRE I know we need to meet in the middle. I do have heavy compersion and enjoy her enjoying herself, but feel left out emotionally if she is having a relationship building outside of me.

Just a terminology note: you, wife and other guy are in a V. Your wife's role is as the "hinge" of the V, while you two guys are the "arms" or "legs" of the V. A hinge needs certain relationship skills and they take time to develop. Personally, as the mother of three kids, once I began practicing polyamory, I put those skills (of balancing everyone's needs) to work with my partners.

 

[enigmastag]

Just a terminology note: you, wife and other guy are in a V. Your wife's role is as the "hinge" of the V, while you two guys are the "arms" or "legs" of the V. A hinge needs certain relationship skills and they take time to develop. Personally, as the mother of three kids, once I began practicing polyamory, I put those skills (of balancing everyone's needs) to work with my partners.

Thank you for the correction, I do need to get some of these terms together. We both agree we need to work on these things.

Biggest issue is if we return to some form of poly/hotwifing she is adamant on bringing this guy back that she cheated with. He currently wants nothing to do with her, so she firstly wants to win him over I guess, and turn him into a boyfriend type dynamic, and ask for much much more freedom and privacy with him. I don't see myself getting there and there is so much bad blood and disrespect that has been created I have a lot of trouble there. It feels much more about the person involved than the dynamic she is looking for but it has always felt that way, whichever person is in front of her is the priority. I guess that is the difference with her leaning much more poly. I guess I struggle with her forcing people from a non-poly lifestyle into a poly-type arrangement, is that is fair to say.

I know boundaries will need to be renegotiated which will include more freedom so she feels less boxed in, but when discussion do happen it definitely feels like she is not willing to work with me on any topic.

to me it feels like a long, long break is the only thing that will allow us to truly clear our heads and be able to come to the table and figure out our needs. I was talking about compromise with her and she told me that she didn't believe in compromise that somebody always has to lose. I know she is resentful about initially being pressured into the lifestyle, even though she loves it so much at this point, even more than me (I do really really like it, just not at the cost of my relationship)

 

[Tinwen]

Biggest issue is if we return to some form of poly/hotwifing she is adamant on bringing this guy back that she cheated with. He currently wants nothing to do with her, so she firstly wants to win him over I guess, and turn him into a boyfriend type dynamic, and ask for much much more freedom and privacy with him. I don't see myself getting there and there is so much bad blood and disrespect that has been created I have a lot of trouble there. It feels much more about the person involved than the dynamic she is looking for but it has always felt that way, whichever person is in front of her is the priority. I guess that is the difference with her leaning much more poly. I guess I struggle with her forcing people from a non-poly lifestyle into a poly-type arrangement, is that is fair to say.

Hm, yeah, that sounds a bit unrealistic if he doesn't want to be involved with her or poly.

I want to validate your intuition here that poly partners should be chosen carefully enough - they don't need to be buddies with the original partner (you don't need to particularly like them), but they should be decent people who are on board with some of the poly ideals of honesty, transparency and respect, and generally value relationships. Poly doesn't mesh too well with people who seek a different dynamic, be it cheating or sex-only (although it's not unheared of that a poly person might have loving feelings for a secondary who sees them more like a fwb and it can still be worked out). Short, if you seek poly, seek poly partners, although that narrows your dating pool quite a bit.

 

[enigmastag]

Hm, yeah, that sounds a bit unrealistic if he doesn't want to be involved with her or poly.

I want to validate your intuition here that poly partners should be chosen carefully enough - they don't need to be buddies with the original partner (you don't need to particularly like them), but they should be decent people who are on board with some of the poly ideals of honesty, transparency and respect, and generally value relationships. Poly doesn't mesh too well with people who seek a different dynamic, be it cheating or sex-only (although it's not unheared of that a poly person might have loving feelings for a secondary who sees them more like a fwb and it can still be worked out). Short, if you seek poly, seek poly partners, although that narrows your dating pool quite a bit.

That is where it gets interesting. I'm sure I overthink some of the things my wife is looking for. I just want to have a full understanding of everything before we dive back into the deep end. Her relationships have been very one-sided, where she has been the one catching all the feelings with her partners, who are basically just there for a physical reason and to hook up. That hurts me for her. I don't want to see her put herself out there to be eventually hurt and rejected in the long run. I asked her if we go back out in a poly type way if she needs partners that return and care about her as well, and she said she doesn't need that, it's more about the dynamic. I struggle with how she would be so open to a one-sided relationship where they are not there for good reasons. I guess she gets more emotionally by just liking or "chasing" somebody.

I understand what you are saying about not needing to be buddies with the metamour. This a big departure from the swinging aspect, where everyone needs to get along on some level. I get in poly there is a lot more autonomy. I need to do a lot more soul searching as to whether I can get there. I would need to give her much more trust.

My question is how people then get to KTP? Is that something people accidentally fall into, or is that a dynamic that poly couples seek out? That dynamic is one that appeals to me, but I see a lot of comments that I shouldn't expect to have even contact or a good relationship with the metamour unless they desire it. It almost seems that a metamour could just decide to avoid contact with the husband if he has access to the wife, as that is what happens in the swinging lifestyle, but I'm sure its different with poly, and hopefully people are considering everyones feelings a little more.

 

[Tinwen]

That is where it gets interesting. I'm sure I overthink some of the things my wife is looking for. I just want to have a full understanding of everything before we dive back into the deep end. Her relationships have been very one-sided, where she has been the one catching all the feelings with her partners, who are basically just there for a physical reason and to hook up. That hurts me for her. I don't want to see her put herself out there to be eventually hurt and rejected in the long run. I asked her if we go back out in a poly type way if she needs partners that return and care about her as well, and she said she doesn't need that, it's more about the dynamic. I struggle with how she would be so open to a one-sided relationship, where they are not there for good reasons. I guess she gets more emotionally by just liking or "chasing" somebody.

I don't understand why she would want a one-sided relationship either, but maybe she needs more experience/ needs to really burn herself to understand what she really wants. The hard part is, sometimes you can't help, just be there and bite your tongue on the "I told you" when people learn. Or maybe she IS into the chase...

I understand what you are saying about not needing to be buddies with the metamour. This a big departure from the swinging aspect where everyone needs to get along on some level. I get in poly there is a lot more autonomy. I need to do a lot more soul searching as to whether I can get there. I would need to give her much more trust. My question is how people then get to KTP? Is that something people accidentally fall into, or is that a dynamic that poly couples seek out? That dynamic is one that appeals to me, but I see a lot of comments that I shouldn't expect to have even contact or a good relationship with the metamour unless they desire it. It almost seems that a metamour could just decide to avoid contact with the husband if he has access to the wife, as that is what happens in the swinging lifestyle. But I'm sure its different with poly, and hopefully people are considering everyone's feelings a little more.

I'd say yes, the metamour can choose to avoid contact (or the husband can choose to avoid contact), BUT many people do want a more involved dynamic. People still have to "get along on some level", but this can look very different for different relationships. There are many steps between "no contact" and "kitchen table".

Even "no-contact" metamours will usually be understanding and accommodating of each other's relationship and scheduling needs, etc., as communicated by the hinge. There could be a lot of respect and goodwill even towards a spouse you don't desire to meet. I think all my kink partners asked repeatedly how my partner is coping with the dynamics even if they didn't know each other.

A good basis (if, perhaps, you have nothing in common with your metamour) is "basic polite", where you're able to just talk for a few minutes between the door or invite them up for coffee when they come pick up your wife or if you happen to attend the same social event. I'd still call this "parallel poly".

There could be a friendly non-intimate dynamic, or when you're all ok watching a movie together, or the guys go for a beer sometimes, connecting over common topics, you invite them for birthdays, etc. Some people call this "garden party" poly.
You can intentionally introduce some functional elements into the dynamics, like bi-weekly three-way talks to check where everyone is, talk about feelings and hash out scheduling conflicts.

On a more involved level, you could still maintain separate living spaces, but be buddies, do sleep-overs or lunch, visit play events, meet each other's families, celebrate Christmas together or whatever. I think this is still really common, much more common than all the people truly living in one house or apartment.
In theory you could have a triad dynamic, where everyone loves each other, but it's often the most difficult to maintain, and those that happen spontaneously tend to have a better chance than planned ones - although there was a post from someone who intentionally sought triads and had some just yesterday.

Sometimes the level of involvement slowly progresses as the relationship(s) deepen. Sometimes all parties agree that getting to an arrangement where they can share living space is desirable, and work towards that, sometimes they seek alternative solutions even for committed relationships, like the hinge going back and forth between homes.

You can aim for any dynamics you want, but I'd say involvement needs to respect the slowest person - which could be you, your metamour or even your wife. (Although it's more common for the hinge to want everyone to get along great and share space.) It sounds like she's now at a point where she desires very separate relationships.

 

[Tinwen]

So it's just like friendships - you can't force them if both people don't want.

Or like relatives - we don't choose relatives. Having a metamour can feel very much like having a cousin you like or don't like but whom you will meet at family events regardless.

 

[Magdlyn]

There was a member here, back in the early days of the forum, named LovingRadiance, who had a husband and a boyfriend, and they all lived together with a bunch of kids of varying ages. (You can search her name to read about her experiences.) LR had had one child by her bf GG, and several by her husband Maca, and Maca's son by a previous relationship lived with them for a time.

All three of the adults were technically polyamorous (although GG only wanted to be with LR). Being so busy, with all these kids in the mix (I think she homeschooled the kids for a time), LR and Maca had agreed that anyone else they dated would have to be fine with KTP, just because, since they were so busy and with the kids all the time, they had very little time to date outside the home with any regularity.

But it wasn't that any of the three adults had a big craving to be a brother-husband or sister-wife, or to take part in three-way sex. It was just a matter of practicality.

Polyamory usually really stresses autonomy. It's a huge change to go from swinging, which is highly couple-centric (usually a bi female and a straight male), to polyamory, where you might be married or in a committed couple, but just as likely might be solo poly, and/or completely non-hierarchical.

Some swinging couples who date another couple exclusively attempt a "quad" configuration, but these generally don't last, as one of the new dyads loses interest in each other, while the other new dyad doesn't, and shit hits the fan with the imbalance.

And I'd think it would be even more difficult to go from hotwifing or cuckoldry to polyamory, because hotwifing is an actual sexual fetish. The husband gets off on his wife having sex with another man. He thinks, as you do, he is "sharing his wife." It's a sexual kink. It's about bodies and lust.

In reality, as you're seeing, the woman has autonomy and shares herself. Your wife is a (perhaps former) people pleaser, and so got into this to please you, to accomodate your kink. However, as she has matured, she is seeing what is in it for her, directly. She is not doing this for you. She is doing it for herself.

She gets off on the "naughty taboo" feeling, so she's not there fully as polyamorous. But at the same time, she is acting, behaving, as an independent polyamorous woman.

I think with therapy, you two could look at your wife's tendency to be a people pleaser, and your tendency to take advantage of this to get off sexually (and probably benefit from in other ways, too).

 

[enigmastag]

I don't understand why she would want a one-sided relationship either, but maybe she needs more experience/ needs to really burn herself to understand what she really wants. The hard part is, sometimes you can't help, just be there and bite your tongue on the "I told you" when people learn. Or maybe she IS into the chase...

I'd say yes, the metamour can choose to avoid contact (or the husband can choose to avoid contact), BUT many people do want a more involved dynamic. People still have to "get along on some level", but this can look very different for different relationships. There are many steps between "no contact" and "kitchen table".

Even "no-contact" metamours will usually be understanding and accommodating of each other's relationship and scheduling needs, etc., as communicated by the hinge. There could be a lot of respect and goodwill even towards a spouse you don't desire to meet. I think all my kink partners asked repeatedly how my partner is coping with the dynamics even if they didn't know each other.

A good basis (if, perhaps, you have nothing in common with your metamour) is "basic polite", where you're able to just talk for a few minutes between the door or invite them up for coffee when they come pick up your wife or if you happen to attend the same social event. I'd still call this "parallel poly".

There could be a friendly non-intimate dynamic, or when you're all ok watching a movie together, or the guys go for a beer sometimes, connecting over common topics, you invite them for birthdays, etc. Some people call this "garden party" poly.
You can intentionally introduce some functional elements into the dynamics, like bi-weekly three-way talks to check where everyone is, talk about feelings and hash out scheduling conflicts.

On a more involved level, you could still maintain separate living spaces, but be buddies, do sleep-overs or lunch, visit play events, meet each other's families, celebrate Christmas together or whatever. I think this is still really common, much more common than all the people truly living in one house or apartment.
In theory you could have a triad dynamic, where everyone loves each other, but it's often the most difficult to maintain, and those that happen spontaneously tend to have a better chance than planned ones - although there was a post from someone who intentionally sought triads and had some just yesterday.

Sometimes the level of involvement slowly progresses as the relationship(s) deepen. Sometimes all parties agree that getting to an arrangement where they can share living space is desirable, and work towards that, sometimes they seek alternative solutions even for committed relationships, like the hinge going back and forth between homes.

You can aim for any dynamics you want, but I'd say involvement needs to respect the slowest person - which could be you, your metamour or even your wife. (Although it's more common for the hinge to want everyone to get along great and share space.) It sounds like she's now at a point where she desires very separate relationships.

I definitely think she likes the thrill of the chase and we have had this discussion quite a few times. Early in our relationship when I was less emotionally available, she "chased" me and was a very clingy partner, which I liked. As I have gotten older and grown as a person (we have been together 18 years) I have wanted to move away from them and have a more secure connection which causes her to pull away. It seems one of us always has to be chasing the other, I was always the avoidant and she was the anxious partner, and going to a enm lifestyle seems to have flipped that, or giving her the attention that she sought all these years as well. After therapy we were talking the other day about the attention she needs from me, and she said it "just drives her crazy" when a guy ignores her. She does like a challenge and I'm probably not that especially in a lifestyle where I idolize her.


On your discussion of all the relationship types, I have been reading up on KTP poly and triads and other things. Is it possible to be in a triad w a Husband/Wife and another man where the two men are not romantically involved with each other? Or does everyone have to be romantically involved? I don't anticipate us ever being in a living situation, as we are not in a situation where we would bring this to our kids, but there are parts of a triad that seem appealing, and I know she only wants one other partner also. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[enigmastag]

There was a member here, back in the early days of the forum, named LovingRadiance, who had a husband and a boyfriend, and they all lived together with a bunch of kids of varying ages. (You can search her name to read about her experiences.) LR had had one child by her bf GG, and several by her husband Maca, and Maca's son by a previous relationship lived with them for a time.

All three of the adults were technically polyamorous (although GG only wanted to be with LR). Being so busy, with all these kids in the mix (I think she homeschooled the kids for a time), LR and Maca had agreed that anyone else they dated would have to be fine with KTP, just because, since they were so busy and with the kids all the time, they had very little time to date outside the home with any regularity.

But it wasn't that any of the three adults had a big craving to be a brother-husband or sister-wife, or to take part in three-way sex. It was just a matter of practicality.

Polyamory usually really stresses autonomy. It's a huge change to go from swinging, which is highly couple-centric (usually a bi female and a straight male), to polyamory, where you might be married or in a committed couple, but just as likely might be solo poly, and/or completely non-hierarchical.

Some swinging couples who date another couple exclusively attempt a "quad" configuration, but these generally don't last, as one of the new dyads loses interest in each other, while the other new dyad doesn't, and shit hits the fan with the imbalance.

And I'd think it would be even more difficult to go from hotwifing or cuckoldry to polyamory, because hotwifing is an actual sexual fetish. The husband gets off on his wife having sex with another man. He thinks, as you do, he is "sharing his wife." It's a sexual kink. It's about bodies and lust.

In reality, as you're seeing, the woman has autonomy and shares herself. Your wife is a (perhaps former) people pleaser, and so got into this to please you, to accomodate your kink. However, as she has matured, she is seeing what is in it for her, directly. She is not doing this for you. She is doing it for herself.

She gets off on the "naughty taboo" feeling, so she's not there fully as polyamorous. But at the same time, she is acting, behaving, as an independent polyamorous woman.

I think with therapy, you two could look at your wife's tendency to be a people pleaser, and your tendency to take advantage of this to get off sexually (and probably benefit from in other ways, too).

I appreciate your message, and I definitely see the challenge in going from hotwifing to poly as the biggest stretch. I expressed the emotional in the beginning as being the hardest part for me and as she gradually pushes me there it feels like there will be nothing in this dynamic for me to enjoy, but in the beginning I think she felt pushed as well and there is lots of resentment also. The futher we go into this the more it seems to fracture our connection and push us further apart emotionally, I know this may be a mono view, but it feels she is unwilling to continue to work on us and our connection.

She has told me many times something to the effect of she doesn't believe in compromise as we discuss these topics. That she believe someone has to lose. Through every individual topic of our dynamic she feels unwilling to bend or compromise so I dont know if opening back up will be productive to us.

 

[ref2018]

She has told me many times something to the effect of she doesn't believe in compromise as we discuss these topics. That she believe someone has to lose. Through every individual topic of our dynamic she feels unwilling to bend or compromise

What a nice civilized way of saying "It's my way or the highway."

 

[Magdlyn]

I appreciate your message, and I definitely see the challenge in going from hotwifing to poly as the biggest stretch. I expressed the emotional in the beginning as being the hardest part for me and as she gradually pushes me there it feels like there will be nothing in this dynamic for me to enjoy, but in the beginning I think she felt pushed as well and there is lots of resentment also. The futher we go into this the more it seems to fracture our connection and push us further apart emotionally, I know this may be a mono view, but it feels she is unwilling to continue to work on us and our connection.

She has told me many times something to the effect of she doesn't believe in compromise as we discuss these topics. That she believe someone has to lose. Through every individual topic of our dynamic she feels unwilling to bend or compromise so I dont know if opening back up will be productive to us.

Thanks for the further information. It does sound like she's reached the end of her "people-pleaser era" and wants to move on to finding out what pleases her, herself!

She has compromised by agreeing to take a break and spend some time in couples counseling, though. However, if she's even doing that under duress, it's going to be unproductive and a waste of time and money. She may already have you in her rearview mirror.

 

[Tinwen]

Is it possible to be in a triad w a Husband/Wife and another man where the two men are not romantically involved with each other? Or does everyone have to be romantically involved?

A MFM configuration where the males aren't involved is totally possible (common), it's just not called a triad, it's a "V". And you could have a kitchen-table style or not.
(Or, just in case you mean sexually involved but not in love, I have no idea what bracket to put that in )

I don't anticipate us ever being in a living situation, as we are not in a situation where we would bring this to our kids, but there are parts of a triad that seem appealing, and I know she only wants one other partner also. Thanks for your thoughts.

So there ARE kids, I was wondering. How old? Since you've been together for 18 years, I'm guessing teenagers?

How are you aiming for KTP if your kids aren't supposed to know?
I'm of course not suggesting they should learn about every new love interest - it takes judgement, just like a single parent would not introduce everyone from the beginning - but if your very hypothetical "V" gets long-term, you'll probably want to tell them eventually.

But somehow I'm getting the feeling your wife is not after long-term, at least not right now. Living through the experience of NRE (new relationship energy, aka falling in love) and really bonding with someone could change that, but right now? Maybe she just wants that NRE experience.

That's dangerous, but not totally unrealistic. I was missing the NRE feeling some time ago, it was like "I don't wanna go through life and never experience that again". It came (quite unexpectedly, despite the wish ), and wasn't reciprocated by my rope partner, but luckily it was accepted with grace. To a large extent, I got it out of my system.

 

[Tinwen]

she is unwilling to continue to work on us and our connection.

This could be true, which would spell doom to your relationship. Or maybe not - we've had tons of arguments where both people felt that way about the other one. I'm really sooooo curious what she would say if she came here in this particular case.