Emotional deadlock

[erithacus]

Hi everyone,

First of all: may 2011 bring you many happy memories and few sad ones.

I'd like to share my story with you. I'm currently in a situation where I feel like I'm slowly falling apart-- and my relationship with it.

My wife Jordan and I have been together for almost three years and we have been married for about a year now. About six months ago, she got reacquainted with an old friend of hers, Jax, whom she hadn't seen for a few years. My wife and Jax have always felt some connection and this was still very much alive.

I like and respect Jax, and we became friends quite quickly. Seeing how Jordan responded to Jax, I encouraged them to spend some time together, as friends. So far, everyone was happy and benefiting from the new friendships. There were some negative feelings on my part, which were caused by my insecurity, and triggered by Jax and Jordan being very close physically, but this was not something I couldn't handle.

Jax, who is also married, and his wife are both polyamorous. Jordan and I, being new to the term, started reading up on it. At some point, Jax asked me if he could call Jordan his "girlfriend." I agreed to this, being still in the friendship-mindset, but in retrospect I didn't really know what the implications were. After this, the situation progressed very quickly from a friendship into a (sexual) relationship.

This has been a rough ride. My insecurity started acting up. We established some boundaries, like, no intimacy you need condoms for. That made the situation tolerable for me. It was very clear I had to do some serious work on my insecurity issues. At the same time, I had to accept the fact that Jordan is polyamorous. That was not something we had talked about at all before this all started happening.

The thing I needed most was time. Time to work on myself, time to accept and digest all these events. However, Jordan felt held back by this. She said she never wanted to push my boundaries (and I believe her), but it was clear she didn't like them. It came up in discussion frequently, often accompanied by the statement that they would like to go further, and the question if I had any idea when I would be able to set boundaries that were less strict. It was also very clear that they had a hard time not crossing them. After about two months, I decided to drop all boundaries because of this.

This resulted in spectacular drama. I really couldn't cope with the mental image of my wife having intercourse with another man. This wasn't improved by the fact that our sex life has been almost nonexistent last year. So, after two weeks without boundaries, but with much drama, we set new ones. Temporarily, for two weeks, they would do nothing sexual at all.

That didn't work very well either. Jordan felt like I was controlling her life, that I wasn't allowing her to be herself. She said she wanted to feel free to do what she wanted. I could see that the feeling of being controlled hurt her very much and started bringing back memories of traumatic events of her past. This did her no good, so I capitulated. I offered her that again, there would be no boundaries, and I would just have to cope.

This is pretty much the status quo right now.

The big problem is that I have some unresolved childhood issues that manifest themselves very intensely at times. These issues revolve around insecurity and feeling abandoned. Right now, I feel caught between a rock and a hard place. I think I would be able to work with this whole new thing of my wife being polyamorous, if only I didn't have these old issues cropping up and turning me in to an emotionally unstable mess. On the other hand, it's very hard to work on these issues, because they are triggered so very often, and I don't feel that I have a secure and stable basis to work from. I've asked Jordan to go slowly with this, to give me time, but then she feels controlled and not herself, which causes her to go off the deep end emotionally.

What Jordan and I do have is really beautiful, and when we're together (emotionally) we are both happy. We love each other dearly. But more and more I fear that the pain I feel is too intense, too frequent, and that I cannot start helping myself without ending this marriage first.

Thank you for listening. I'd appreciate anything you might care to share.

Robin

 

[GroundedSpirit]

Hey Robin. I feel for you, truly. It seems you are really doing a stand-up job in working on this, and yourself. You lay right out there that you have some issues of your own that need work, as most of us do. But it's hard not to get sucked into the problem, and lose focus on that.

It's kind of like going for a drive way out in the country, blowing a tire, and having no spare. All the childhood fears of wolves and bears come roaring back. But focusing on the animals that are only in your imagination at this point and not focusing on what you are going to do to get out of the problem means you attract what you fear most, eventually.

Keep moving. Keep focused. Fight predators when they appear, not before. Chances are the most you will run into are squirrels.

 

[redpepper]

Hello Robin. Welcome to the forum.

There are many ways to do polyamory. It is really individual. For me, however, and what I suggest to others is that they go at the pace of the one struggling the most. I understand that Jordan feels held back, so working out the pace is your best bet. Maybe this means she only has a date with Jax once a week, and two dates with you. Maybe it means that the three of you spend time together, so that you can get used to his presence in your life. I don't know what would work for you, but negotiating boundaries is huge in poly. That has been my experience.

I suggest that you look at some threads in Golden Nuggets on the foundations of poly, the lessons we have learned, and get an idea of how to proceed. You can do a search for "foundations" and "lessons" to find some good stuff.

There really no need for all or nothing. A balance can be created so that you can catch up, and Jordan can feel she has some control. In polyamory, and relationships in general, it seems they don't survive if one person dictates what happens.

 

[MonoVCPHG]

But more and more I fear that the pain I feel is too intense and too frequent and that I cannot start helping myself without ending this marriage first.

Thank you for listening. I'd appreciate anything you might care to share.

robin

Perhaps this is the course you should take. The saying is, "If you love something, set it free. If it comes back to you, it is yours. If not, it was never meant to be." Maybe you need to set yourself free and see what happens. Will you come back to her? You're not going to have a conventional relationship, so why hold on to that aspect if it makes you unhealthy?

Just a quick thought.

 

[Magdlyn]

Things I have learned about being poly are: your marriage needs to be solid. You need to have a good understanding of yourself as well, and a strong ego.

Since you feel so very insecure and have abandonment issues, poly is not going to work for you if you don't feel secure in your wife's love and presence remaining constant.

Since you two stopped having sex only two years into your relationship, I'd hazard a guess your marriage isn't all that solid. What's getting in the way of your having a frequent, healthy, experimental sex life?

 

[erithacus]

Thank you all for reading and responding.

Our sex life has slowly diminished by Jordan having severe back trouble for several months, which turned out to be a hernia. More or less at the same time, she was working through some very emotional issues dealing with sexual abuse in her childhood. There was nothing wrong between us, at least not that I was aware of. But now I feel left out, because I have given her all the time she needed to deal with her issues, but now she has started having a sex life with someone else, not me. That hurts. And it doesn't make me a more secure or attractive person. I can see that.

RP, that's good advice, yes (but exactly the thing that hasn't happened). Jordan has always argued vehemently against having multiple relationships, casual sex with others, or anything else outside the realm of monogamy. Now we have gone from a monogamous marriage to a full V, where she sort of demands the right to be with Jax twice a week, sleeping over and having sex. This, all in about four months.

I know I am partly responsible for this. In the beginning, I encouraged her to develop a friendship with Jax. But things progressed. She has repeatedly said she needed to be closer with him, or else she would feel controlled by me. I have, several times, said things were okay, and we would move the boundaries a great deal. She now accuses me of going back on my word (which I have; that's true.) However, I've also said on many occasions that things were going too fast, that I didn't feel happy or comfortable, that I needed more time. And these things haven't been heard, or at least they haven't been acted upon.

Not to mention the emotional upheaval, bouts of crying, arguments, which I suspect have only driven her towards Jax more. Once, after a particular emotional crisis, I tried setting a strict boundary (no sexual intimacy for two weeks), but that turned out to be not acceptable nor possible for her, because she felt I was controlling her life. So I (again) didn't stand up for myself, capitulated fully, and said she could do whatever she wanted, and that I would just have to cope. That was the only boundary (e.g., no boundary) she accepted at that time. I have much to learn in that respect.

So, in the end, I really feel all her attention has been focused on her relationship with her bf. And that is also the predator I have some deeply-rooted issues with. Not a good combo. It still happens that almost every discussion we have revolves around her being able to see her bf. Even our therapist has seen that. It's not: "How much time do we need to address the issues we have in our marriage?" No, it is "How much time do you need before I can have my relationship with Jax the way I want it?"

Maybe this is the way NRE affects her. Maybe she is being selfish. Maybe I am not as big a person as I would like to be. I don't know. It's all very complicated.

 

[GroundedSpirit]

In the end, I really feel all her attention has been focused on her relationship with Jax. And that is also the predator I have some deeply-rooted issues with. Not a good combo. It still happens that almost every discussion we have revolves around her being able to see her bf.

Maybe this is the way NRE affects her. Maybe she is being selfish. Maybe I am not as big a person as I would like to be.

I think you need to just be honest, if possible, in a non-confrontational way. I think she is acting selfishly, but may not be aware of the extent of it.
So ask her, "What about us?" "Where do 'we' and 'I' in general fit into this?" "I want you to be happy and help you get what you need (if possible), but what about me?" "This can't all be one-sided."

These are legitimate questions.

How much is NRE? How much is about this newfound confidence she may be feeling? You may never know. But it's only fair to remind her, and everyone, that it's cruel to just go wild and not realize or acknowledge the effects your actions can have. That's not building a better model.

Try to remind her to take time, and a deep breath, and look at the big picture. If she refuses, or is incapable, well, that's important information in itself. So draw your own conclusions and act accordingly.

Please keep us posted.

 

[erithacus]

Hi, GS. Currently I have sort of hijacked the situation by stating that if she does not put her relationship with Jax on hold, I want us to live in separate places for a while. She has agreed to not seeing him for three weeks. That gives us some time to figure things out.

We're now trying to get clear what our needs and wants are. I think it'll be very useful to compare those and see whether or not they are compatible. For both of us it's hard to figure out what we actually need and want, and to specify that clearly. I mean, she has already told me that she wants to have sex with Jax, and that it might become a need eventually. But if "eventually" turns out to mean "in two weeks," I think we'll be through quite quickly.

Thanks for reading. Sharing helps, even though it's probably a very mixed-up story on the receiving end.

Robin

 

[dragonflysky]

That didn't work very well, either. Jordan felt like I was controlling her life, that I didn't allow her to be herself. She said she wanted to feel free to do what she wants. I could see that the feeling of being controlled hurt her very much and started bringing back memories of traumatic events of her past. This did her no good, so I capitulated...

The big problem is that I have some unresolved childhood issues... around insecurity and feeling abandoned. Right now, I feel caught between a rock and a hard place. I think I would be able to work with this whole new thing of Jordan being polyamorous, if only I didn't have these old issues cropping up and turning me into an emotionally unstable mess. On the other hand, it's very hard to work on these issues, because they are triggered so very often and I don't feel that I have a secure and stable basis to work from. I've asked Jordan to go slowly with this, to give me time, but then she feels controlled and not herself, which causes her to go off the deep end emotionally.

I think you both have some more healing work to do before you become involved in a healthy polyamorous relationship. I've worked with many sexual-abuse survivors who feel like any boundaries or limits set are "controlling" after so many years of them feeling powerless over what happens in their lives. It's almost at the exact opposite end of the continuum of "Power/Control/Personal Empowerment/Powerlessness." It's still a reactive response to life. The same is true for many individuals healing from abandonment issues.

Both sexual abuse issues and issues of abandonment tend to fall into the psychological realm of the development of "Autonomy and Intimacy." Health and healing are a balance of being comfortable with Autonomy (feeling capable, confident and secure with one's "Self") and Intimacy (feeling capable, confident and secure in connecting with "Others"). You might want to ask your therapist about some of this, if it hasn't already been discussed. I wish you both well in what can be a challenging healing journey.

 

[redpepper]

To me, when someone doesn't respect the needs of a partner, have integrity and compassion, or isn't communicating effectively, then it is essentially cheating with everyone knowing.

There are foundations to build on in poly that really do work. Check out the thread on poly foundations and lessons learned in Golden Nuggets. Many people have put input there. None of it has been that a person has the right and had super success in just doing whatever they want at the expense of another. There are some people who practice poly, who do whatever, and tell partners that they just have to deal with the ramifications of their actions, because they are free and have the right to do as they will. That is fine. But when a relationship starts out monoamorous, and turns polyamorous, I have not known this to work with high success rates.

The two of you made a monogamous commitment to each other. You are still in that and transitioning out of it. It should go at your pace. If she is wise, and still wants you as a partner, she will do so, and be happy to give you the time, space and conversations that you need.

This leads me to wonder if she really does want to be in a relationship with you. What are your goals, are they common to each other, do you value the same things, are you willing to build a foundation with each other? Or does she want to be a single poly person from now on?

You have lots to talk about in three weeks. I hope Jordan uses the time, and doesn't just spend it pining for the bf she is not hanging out with. That is a real possibility.

 

[erithacus]

Hi RP,

Thank you again for your reply. Yes, I have read (and am reading again) those threads. All the comments and doubts I read in response to my posts all very valid, and I feel most of them, too. All the good advice has not been wasted on me. But I'll have to find a way to make sure she sees how she is behaving.

Thankfully, I get a lot of support from a few friends and our parents (both mine and hers), but that also makes it even harder on her: she has become the black sheep that is endangering our marriage (which she is, if you'd ask me), but everyone telling her so isn't helping her to turn around. It might even be forcing her even more into the self-righteous viewpoint, that she has the right to do this, and that I should not control her by setting boundaries.

Ah well, we'll see how it works out.

 

[redpepper]

That's tough. I would react the same way if everyone was seemingly ganging up on me. Is there any chance she can do some reading here? We are all in this together. Most people have the same struggles starting out in polyamory. It's a matter of getting through it and coming out the other side. No one here has an invested interest in her seeing things differently, so perhaps it would be more of a reality check for her.

If she isn't comfortable posting, she could PM me. I am willing to be there if she needs an ear to bend. Sometimes having someone to talk to really helps. I do get where SHE is coming from. She is not alone on this journey. There are many people here who will understand and be confidential if she needs to speak freely, but in private.

 

[erithacus]

If she isn't comfortable posting she can PM me. I am willing to be there if she needs an ear to bend. Sometimes someone to talk to really helps. I do get where she is coming from. She is not alone on this journey.

RP, thank you for the kind offer. I'll make sure to let her know.

 

[Joyce]

Hi there,

The post Redpepper made today on this thread I saw in my mailbox a few hours ago.

So, here I am: the wife Robin has been talking about, as Jordan. Nice to meet you all.

Thanks for letting me know it's okay to do some reading here. Actually, I found myself very curious and wanted to read the posts Robin wrote lately. But I didn't want to make him feel unsafe in his new way of finding some support. It's funny that it turns out to be fine to do some reading anyhow.

I have decided to not directly react to the things Robin wrote. I'm sure to do some posts when I feel ready.

I will do the best I can writing understandable English. Please let me know when things aren't clear.

Anyway. The sun is shining for the first time this year. Spring is coming. Trust is moving towards me in a slow pace. I truly hope that the sun will lighten our hearts and give everyone the strength to look ourselves in the eye, be honest, and finally to look at the bright side of life. Always walk on the sunny side of the street.

Joyce

 

[redpepper]

Nice to hear from you, Joyce. It's always helpful to get both sides of a story. Welcome. Take your time here. There is no rush and no obligation.

 

[Joyce]

Thank you for the warm welcome. Reading all the stories and posts makes me feel more and more confident that we can manage to find a way that works for us all.

 

[LovingRadiance]

Joyce and Robin, may I make a suggestion from my heart?

(Joyce, I know Robin has read a recent thread about my situation. Please feel free to read it also, and ask me questions if you'd like to know more.)

I find that sometimes "boundary lists" are created with one person thinking "This is all I can handle" and the other person thinking "This won't be enough for me." Both are probably correct at that moment. But a boundary list doesn't have to be a "It stays this way forever" document.

Would it be possible for each of you to make your own lists, then come together with a suggested time schedule for getting from one to the other?

Example:

"No sex that requires condoms" is one end of the spectrum, "unprotected sex" the other.

Can you lay it out with what goes between, and put a schedule to when each level will be reached, so that instead of jumping from "nothing" to "everything" (and back again), as emotions surge, you can take it one step at a time?

Dates:

What I hear (which could be wrong, so bear with me) is Robin saying that he feels as though you have date nights with Jax, but he's lacking time with you. Could the two of you schedule two date nights with each other each week also?

One thing I pictured as an optimal scenario for me was being able to have from 4 pm on one night until noon the next day with Jax, then having from 4pm-noon with Robin.

The other thing which seems to really help is to schedule "reconnect time" for the 2-4 hours after a date with one's OSO. That time, for me, is devoted to spending with Maca, after a date with GG, not talking about my date with GG, but talking about us. We might take a bath together, share back rubs, go for a walk or a drive, something we can do together and talk also (not a movie or TV). That way we can reconnect and there isn't the sense that I went on a date and "disappeared" from our life.

I posted a couple days ago about schedules for building relationships, privileges to go along with that, etc.

If you want an example to work from, you might check out my blog. The address is in my signature.

The book Opening Up has a lot of suggestions for things to consider when trying to create a productive boundary list.

 

[Joyce]

I feel free to react on this post, because it is also addressed to me. I'm not sure if it is ok. because it is Robin's thread.. I'm not sure how the policy is of two people involved posting in the same thread. But I begin to think that isn't a problem at all. I hope that's right.

May I give a suggestion from my heart?

Of course, those are the best, aren't they?

I know Robin has read a recent thread about my situation. Please feel free to read it and/or ask me questions if you'd like to know.

I find that sometimes "boundary lists" are created with one person thinking "This is all I can handle" and the other person thinking "This won't be enough for me."

I think you are right on the boundary list thing. In my experience, Robin and I both felt unseen by making a compromise in the boundary list.

Both are probably correct at this moment.

For ourselves, the lists are correct, but maybe they are not for each other. I'm not sure about that, because we aren't working on the boundary lists.

But a boundary list doesn't have to be a "It stays this way forever" document.

Well, I did hold onto the idea that things will change. I begin to wonder if that's why Robin felt rushed and pushed.

Would it be possible for each of you to make your own lists, then come together with a suggested time schedule for getting from one to the other?

That sounds like a wonderful idea. It sounds like something we were trying to do. The conflict we found ourselves in a few weeks ago was that Robin found out he stretched his boundaries too far. So he started to pull them back. I got scared that in the end he didn't want the whole "love more than one person" thing. I felt he treated me dishonestly because I did everything we could think of to make it work. The dating nights, and talk talk talk about everything, reconnecting with each other, reading the books, making good plans, taking our dynamic life to the therapist, etc.

Now I can see that the moment I felt angry was when I lost my patience and understanding for Robin. But of course, that was his problem, because I felt exactly the same. Another thing that made me even more angry were the people in our environment that told me that I should stop it all because it would kill our marriage. I felt so judged and unseen, that the angry feeling stayed.

Right now, I am afraid of Robin making the same mistake by taking a compromise to the negotiation table, and then I start to compromise, of course. I don't want that to happen.. That's why I'm a little afraid of the suggestions you made. Because it sounds like the right thing to do. But the right things to do turns out the be the wrong things two weeks later. And then I feel angry again.

I will talk it through with Robin in the evening. I can write more, but I'm running out of time.

 

[LovingRadiance]

That sounds a lot like where we're at right now, Joyce. Ironically, I'm the poly one with a boyfriend. But now that Maca is "trying," it became evident that I never considered my needs in regards to how we move forward. So when the question of using our room came up, I just capitulated, without even considering the implications to myself, or to Maca, and my relationship.

Then, a few days later, it really clicked for me that this "compromise" wasn't just going to mess with my head, it was going to actively create negative problems in our relationship. So I put my foot down.

Not really a healthy way to handle it. I should have looked at my needs, his request, considered it thoroughly, and then sat down to discuss with Maca what options there were to get his needs met without overstepping mine. We actually got to that point last night.

But that was why I felt compelled to say something to you two. It sounded like more of a misinterpretation between the two of you, i.e., not grasping the timeframes that might make the change/learning/growth more feasible and functional; less like an actual inability to work together.

Good luck to you both.

 

[Joyce]

It's very good to discuss things if you're expecting that it will mess with your head the other way. But how do you manage to not let it happen that Maca feels pushed by your needs? I really need to figure that one out..

Thanks a lot for saying the things you said. I will read it again when I know a bit more about the reason it didn't work. I really hope that is a time thing.

Good luck to you too.