Sex and its status

[FlameKat]

In the mono world, the intimate act of sex was or has sacred status. In the poly world, that sacred status is given to furniture, places, rooms, sexual positions or acts, shower stalls and even shoes. "You can wear my partner, so to speak, but I draw the line with my shoes, god damn it." It seems bit crazy, particularly the sexual position one... not real verifiable. Is this some mental game of replacement? Is there some need for sacred status to replace a perceived loss?

That said, I requested 3 rules. Yes, Redpepper rules. I think I heard your teeth mash together. Sorry. And not just rules, but RULES. The good part is, there are only three.

1. Not at our house, not because I place sacred status on or around the house, but because of the neighborhood we live in. We are very close with the neighbors. Everyone notices everything. We all look out for each other.

2. Don't bring anything home. I don't want to catch so much as a fucking cold.

3. He is not allowed to drive my Mustang convertible. That car is known in the community. I don't want somebody to say, "Hey, I saw your car. The driver didn't look like you."

Without worrying about whether or not the rules are rules, boundaries or common sense, they appear to be pretty standard to what a large majority of the posts I've read have used at the outset of their journeys. (I have not read every single post.) I wish you luck with the rest of your journey.

As to the question, this is one I am having trouble comprehending myself. To me, the act of physical intimacy (whether it be as mild as a caress, or passionate kissing, or intercourse) is a personal and private thing to the relationship. I have friends I hug and cuddle, and friends I kiss (although only lightly, i.e., a peck). While I can see the issue WW has with me becoming intimate in a deeper way with someone other than himself, I do NOT understand it.

From my perspective, the intimacy in each relationship is sacred to that relationship and does not impinge at all on the other. I do not see how what I do with someone else impacts the sacredness of what I share with him.

**NOTING** I am a responsible person, so no assumptions of unsafe practices in response to this, please. Truly just trying to understand the issue from the mono perspective.

 

[Rarechild]

Math

All I did was repeat what has been written a dick-zillion times on here.

I'll go ahead and repeat that appreciation.

 

[NeonKaos]

I'll go ahead and repeat that appreciation.

LOL. Word.

 

[Ithink]

I really debated with myself whether or not to reply to your post, as you have been given very good information by some smart people. After some consideration, I thought I would contribute to the pool of comments for a couple of reasons. I wouldn’t mind receiving some feedback on my views, and I thought perhaps you might glean some insight from my “take” on your post.

In the mono world, the status of sex is, imo, a sadly distorted, forcefully imposed, barely recognizable shadow of what real sex should be and can be, when given by people with an open heart, mind and soul. I found it very difficult to dig my way out of the pile of rubble that, for me anyway, represented the emotions, fears and laws that the Judeo-Christian ethic has forced upon mankind for many centuries and continues to this very day.

One of the first things the J-C ethic imposes on people is the concept of “ownership” of your partner, particularly for men. We are conditioned to believe that our spouse is our property. It is very difficult to get past the conditioning and takes some work to realize the truth. We no more own our wives than we own the wind. What she gives to you is of her own accord, and that makes it even more beautiful when one considers that another human being is freely giving part of themselves to you.

Keeping in mind all of the variables, and that this is my own opinion, I think that this is what you are representing with your rule about your car. You are finding a way to retain ownership of something. Most definitely not a judgement on my part, simply an observation from a distance, and my ass might be blowing bubbles. Again, imo, don’t worry. You will get past this stumbling block if you continue to keep an open mind and seek advice from the wonderful people on this forum.

My spouse and I have had many long heart-to-heart discussions on poly topics, and one of the things that has become clear to me is that I want my partners to be the very best people they can be in this life. I have an altruistic reason and a selfish reason for this view. If I love someone, I want them to be happy and fulfilled for their own sake, and when they are happy and fulfilled they shine better on me. I said selfish, remember.

The rules you speak of are, imo, simply asking for respect. Well, perhaps in this case “demanding” respect, but you get my drift. I empathize greatly with your desire to stay below the radar. Neighbours, co-workers and, in some cases, family members have no need to know about our private lives. Indeed, in some cases, the outside world can become very damaging and hurtful towards poly people. I think most poly people have witnessed the attacks from the religious right. We stay below the radar in our poly life and intend on keeping it that way. Our choice.

Asking for respect from your wife in such a manner is closing the door to trusting in her own ability to make that judgement herself, and has the sometimes unintended consequence of closing the door on communication. If we truly respect our significant other, we would perhaps think to ourselves, “I sure would like to have sex on the hood of the car in the afternoon sun, but maybe I’ll run the idea past my SO, in case I am missing something here.” This only happens when people have open, free communication without fear of judgement or conflict.

Many people have said it here on the forum, and I will repeat it, because it should be the mantra of poly people. COMMUNICATION IS KEY. Without it, our relationships are doomed to failure.

So there you have my two cents on the topic. Laying down rules is an admission of fear, of unresolved questions and asking for respect. People sharing their hearts, minds, bodies and souls are about as sacred as anything this life has to offer, imo. Where, when and with whom are decisions we make ourselves. The road to becoming poly is exactly that, a road, and we all travel down it at a different pace and we are all prone to becoming stuck, taking a wrong turn, having a wreck or turning off the road entirely.

Communication is the fuel that moves us down the road.

Now that my reply has turned into a small novel, I would like to be clear and say I in no way judge you or anyone else on the forum, for that matter. The foregoing is simply my contribution to attempting to understand a complex issue.

 

[dingedheart]

Flamekat,

As to the question, to me, the act of physical intimacy is a personal and private thing to the relationship. I have friends I hug and cuddle, and friends I kiss. While I can see the issue WW has with me becoming intimate in a deeper way with someone other than himself, I do not understand it.

From my perspective, the intimacy in each relationship is sacred to that relationship and does not impinge at all on the other. I do not see how what I do with someone else impacts the sacredness of what I share with him.

I am a responsible person, so no assumptions of unsafe practises...

I guess I was reading lots of stories, and a common theme seemed to appear. People had certain rules/boundaries that helped them with the idea of partner being intimate, or in the most extreme case, actually having sex with another person. I was not trying debate the sacred nature of intimate relationships. It was more of a thought born from all the reading of what people are doing to be comfortable with all of this. It seemed a little strange to keep reading how person X is okay with their partner having numerous relationships, which may or may not include sex, as long as it's not in earshot, or on a given piece of furniture.

Sex in a relationship does have a sacred status, like it or not. No one has accused a partner of cheating by going to a restaurant and eating lunch. Here I'm talking about the act of eating lunch. Have sex with that same person instead of lunch and it may end up being a problem.

Does your partner have a partner? If so, what are some of your rules/boundaries? Your intimate relationships don't impinge on each other because...? I think the reason for the rules/ boundaries is for the impingement factor. Lots of folks talk about not being too affectionate in front of partners. Well, that might be considered an impingement to your free and full expression of love. Said expression might make one or both partners extremely uncomfortable, so as to not have melt-downs or hard feelings, or the like. The premise of this whole topic is perhaps flawed.

You said you see the issue, but don't understand. What do you see as the issue? Or more importantly, what is the issue, as he knows it?

 

[Carma]

Good thinking, IThink.

It seems the J-C model is so much about possession and obligation. I don't know how you get around that in a marriage, but we have found it to be a huge hurdle. I think that's one thing that drew me so strongly to my bf, because everything I do for him is freely given, with no strings attached (still want to go see that movie, btw, although I know it has a predictable ending). The one thing we are all striving for in our V is respect. And yes, communication is very key in that!

I've heard a saying, "An expectation is just a premeditated resentment." That's where I get all tangled up, sometimes. Marriage has so many expectations, many of which are clearly defined duties/rights. But a relationship outside of that monogamous structure has so much more wiggle room. Well, I for one, am highly enjoying all the wiggling! My husband and boyfriend are too, I think.

 

[dingedheart]

Ithink, thanks for the reply. I began my post before yours arrived, so some of this may be cleared up. As for the car, it is an antique, or rather 1970s vintage. It has been at car shows. It is 1 of 3 in our area, that I know of. It has been in local parades, Boy Scouts, etc.

I own a business in the community. I'm involved in my kids' sports teams. I do volunteer work. So consequently, my car and I are all over the place. We are recognizable and kind of connected. Because of all the activities my kids are involved in (too many, imo, that's another thread), it is next to impossible to know where everyone is in relation to each other. There have been a number of times when one of them has said, "What were you doing at the marina?" "I saw your truck," "I saw the Mustang."

I think I need to add that several years ago, I built a vacation home up on the lake. Way more man hours in the house than the restoration of the car. But because of the isolated nature of the house I have no problem with its use, all rooms and furniture, even the hot tub.

I'm not sure of the religious origins or its consequences. Do you know of religions that disconnect marriage and sexual fidelity? Hindu, Buddhist? I don't have a clue.

Thanks again,
D

 

[LovingRadiance]

Flamekat, I guess I was reading lots of stories and a common theme seemed to appear. People had certain rules/boundaries that helped them with the idea of partner being intimate or in the most extreme case actually having sex with another person. I was not trying debate the sacred nature of intimate relationships, it was more of a thought born from all the reading of what people are doing to be comfortable with all of this. It seemed a little strange to keep reading how person X is ok with their partner having numerous relationships which may or may not include sex as long its not in ear shod, or on a given piece of furniture.

Sex in a relationship does have a sacred status, like it or not. No one has accused a partner of cheating by going to a restaurant and eating lunch. Here I'm talking about the act of eating lunch. Have sex with that same person instead of lunch and it may end up being a problem. Does your partner have a partner? If so, what are some of your rules/boundaries. Your intimate relationship don't impinge on each other because? I think the reason for the rules/ boundaries is for the impingement factor. Lots of folks talk about not being to affectionate in front of partners... well that might be considered an impingement to your free and full expression of love. Said expression may make one or both partners extremely uncomfortable, so as to not have melt downs or hard feels or the like. The premise of this whole topic is perhaps flawed.

You said you see the issue, but don't understand. What do you see as the issue? Or more importantly, what is the issue as he knows it?

I'm not Flamecat, but I do know what you are talking about. I happen to find it very aggravating to have the expectation that I limit affection in front of Maca. I do it because I also love him, but it does bother me. GG does not ask me to limit my affection for Maca in front of GG. Unfortunately, this sometimes leads to ego bs with Maca, which just makes it even messier for me.

Personally, Maca and I have agreed to "no other partners in our bed." Maca has had other partners in our bed, and I was okay with that. But after the last trial with him trying to find a new partner, we agreed that it was better to keep that space "conflict-free," so to speak.

It's a non-issue with GG. He is mono. So he doesn't bring other people to his bed, and I wouldn't either.

As for "in the car," who cares? (Not your car, ours.)

Mostly, I'm not possessive that way. I love the guys. There is no need for me to limit them in regards to how they show affection to others or where.

The primary limit I have is not pushing myself or the children into building relationships with their others faster than they've earned our relationship. Just because they spend time getting to know one of the guys does not mean that they deserve our close friendship. They have to spend time getting to know each of us individually for that to happen.

 

[dingedheart]

I'm not flamecat, but I do know what you are talking about.

I happen to find it very aggravating to have the expectation that I limit affection in front of Maca. I do it-because I also love him, but it does bother me. GG does not ask me to limit my affection for Maca in front of GG.
Unfortunately, this sometimes leads to ego BS with Maca, which just makes it even messier for me.

Maca and I have agreed to not having other partners in our bed. Maca has had other partners in our bed, and I was okay with that. But after the last trial with him trying to find a new partner, we agreed that it was better to keep that space "conflict-free," so to speak.

It's a non-issue with GG. He is mono. So he doesn't bring other people to his bed, and I wouldn't either.

As for "in the car," who cares? (not your car, ours).

I'm not possessive that way. I love the guys. There is no need for me to limit them in regards to how they show affection to others or where.

The primary limit I have is not pushing myself or the children into building relationships with their others faster than they've earned our relationship. Just because they spend time getting to know one of the guys does not mean that they deserve our close friendship. They have to spend time getting to know each of us individually for that to happen.

LovingRadiance, thanks for the input.

I think your primary limit is absolutely reasonable and very wise, to say the least. You said GG doesn't ask you to limit your affection to Maca, but that's different than saying it doesn't bother him. As I wrote here before, "I don't care if they do it in the car, just do it in the garage." I would have a problem with them doing it on the hood, just because I know how expensive it is to replace or fix. Hoods aren't designed for that use. Not my ego talking. I wouldn't do it on the hood of that car myself for the same reason. Maybe bent over a fender, with polishing rags in each hand... just maybe.

 

[LovingRadiance]

I think your primary limit is absolutely reasonable and very wise. You said GG doesn't ask you to limit your affection to Maca, but that's different than saying it doesn't bother him.

Normally I wouldn't speak for him, but we've discussed this more times than I can count. So I'll say, at this point, it doesn't bother GG. There was a time when it made him puking sick, but that was prior to us being in a poly dynamic.

 

[redpepper]

Ithink, I love your post. Could you make paragraphs though, please? It makes it hard to enjoy how you write when I can't see it. I have dyslexia. And besides, it's kinda what one does on a forum. Appreciate it.

I like what you say about respect and communication, but it's important to note, imo, that these two things mean different things to different people. Getting a sense of how someone feels respected is super important. I feel respected when I know what is going on in my home, community and my work life. I feel respected when I belong. When I don't know what is going on for others, I don't feel I belong, and therefore don't feel respected. The same thing might not be true for my partner. I might be telling them stuff that is not what they are interested in knowing and is, in fact, uncomfortable for them. This might make them feel disrespected.

Same token for communication. I have an extremely high communication level and practice different types of communication. I have taken courses, facilitated courses, and it is a big passion of mine in terms of relationship dynamic. Another partner might think that they are set if they just tell me they are experiencing NRE for someone. For me that isn't enough. Details: "What happened? How do you feel? What is your intent? What do you need from me?" That is all part of it, for me.

I have started and quickly ended, in a bunch of drama, a few relationships where neither respect nor communication was on par with me and the other person. We said "Yes, important," at the beginning, but never discussed details of "how," "when," "why," all super important.

The act of physical intimacy is a personal and private thing to the relationship. While I can see the issue WW has with me becoming intimate in a deeper way with someone other than himself, I do not understand it. From my perspective, the intimacy in each relationship is sacred to that relationship and does not impinge at all on the other. I do not see how what I do with someone else impacts the sacredness of what I share with him.

I am a responsible person, so no assumptions of unsafe practises in responses to this, please.

Thank you, flamekat. Please, please, if you ever figure this out, share with me. I totally feel the same. What I have with others is not included in my relationships with each person I love. The love is the same from me, but the relationships are different. I am nurtured by my relationships. I adore closeness with people I trust and love. I too get the issue. I was raised mono. I tried it out, bought it, sold it, swore I was able to be it for every relationship I had, until I moved on or cheated. I just don't understand how to STAY mono. I begin to implode and explode at the same time with this kind of shit... Seriously.

Sorry for the hijack. Back to your regularly-scheduled topic.

 

[Ithink]

First of all, I would like to address dingedheart. Although it may feel like you are "under attack," or at least being brought to task for your views, I would like to state here that I value your viewpoints greatly, if for no other reason than it causes us all to stop and consider our own viewpoints. Then we all share our own particular viewpoints, and sometimes a person can see an error in his own thinking. I know it has happened for me many times on this forum. That is what intelligent conversation is all about, imo.

Secondly, an apology to FP for my particular writing style. Sometimes I become overwhelmed by my thought processes, and in a rush to capture my thoughts before I lose them (I suffer from Old-Timer's Disease), I run roughshod over proper writing style. In the future I will endeavour to include proper punctuation and grammar; although I cannot lie, there will be lapses.

Also your point about respect and communication meaning different things to different people is excellent, and something I had not considered until now. Applause in North America is a sign of respect and enjoyment, while applause in Russia is considered a sign or derision and dislike. At least, that is my understanding.

Once again, a very good thread in the poly forum full of sharing, understanding and learning. The day we stop learning is the day we start dying.

 

[Myzka]

Applause in North America is a sign of respect and enjoyment, while applause in Russia is considered a sign or derision and dislike. At least that is my understanding.
​

Nope, we Russians also applaud for the same reasons. hehe

I also do like this thread very much.

 

[dingedheart]

Ithink, thanks for your comments.

I didn't feel under attack, as much as misunderstood. I wasn't trying to insult anyone. It was frustrating to state my reason for doing something that I've spent god knows how much time thinking about, ponder each scenario and possible outcomes, only to be told, "Well that's not it. It's your ego or whatever. Okay, great. You spent 1, maybe 2 minutes thinking about this." Yeah, I must be wrong. I guess I'll go with what you think. And I dont mean you, Ithink, I mean whoever posted those types of comments.

This you think, I think, and your call sign, ITHINK, is starting to sound like some Monty Python bit.

I know I asked about other religions and sex ethics. Have you given it any thought? I only have a limited base of knowledge on this topic, so jump in.

Myzka, does that mean you're Russian?

Thanks,
D

 

[redpepper]

Secondly an apology to FP for my particular writing style. Sometimes I become overwhelmed by my thought processes, and in a rush to capture my thoughts before I lose them, I run roughshod over proper writing style. In the future I will endeavour to include proper punctuation and grammar; although I cannot lie, there will be lapses. ​

RP? Lapsed already, huh?

 

[Ithink]

RP? Lapsed already huh?

ROFLMAO. Oh geeze... busted. Yup. Put brain in gear BEFORE engaging fingers, OR MOUTH! My humblest apologies, Redpepper. Were I there in person I would go down on one knee and offer you a single red rose and a kiss on the back of your hand.

 

[Ithink]

After being raised Anglican (think Catholic only with harder pews) and witnessing what I have in my lifetime, I am most definitely NOT religious, and, in fact blame, organized religion for MOST of the worlds ills. I see nothing wrong with being spiritual in whatever fashion suits you as a person, but the mainstream organized religions have no place in my world. They are the root of all evil, in my opinion. I identify very strongly with John Lennon's words in Imagine. I apologize in advance if I have offended anyone, but that is my opinion, and it isn't about to change anytime soon.

I encourage you to continue to dialogue with people here on the forum, DH. I admire you for keeping a level head throughout this long and complicated thread. There are lots who couldn't have managed it.
IThink.

Monty Python...rofl. NEET NEET NEET NEET

I asked about other religions and sex ethics. Have you given it any thought? I only have a limited base of knowledge on this topic, so jump in.​

 

[Ithink]

Myzka,

I stand corrected. I assure you I will hunt down the cad that misinformed me and punish her severely. I must be more diligent in proving the information provided to me by my friends and the media.

Are you still residing in Russia? I am trying to convince my wife to vacation there instead of an all-inclusive resort in Mexico. I would love to ask you a thousand questions about Russia and vacationing there, but I am afraid we would hijack the original poster's thread.

Nope, we also applaud for the same reasons.

 

[redpepper]

My humblest apologies, Redpepper. Were I there in person, I would go down on one knee and offer you a single red rose and a kiss on the back of your hand.​

Oh myyyy. How'd you know I was a sucker for that kind of thing? It's that kinda thing that gets me in trouble! Bad man! *slaps hand* *takes rose*

(Ahem... Sorry to get off track there, DH.)

 

[FlameKat]

Does your partner have a partner? If so, what are some of your rules/boundaries? Your intimate relationships don't impinge on each other because? I think the reason for the rules/boundaries is for the impingement factor. Lots of folks talk about not being too affectionate in front of partners. Well, that might be considered an impingement to your free and full expression of love. Said expression may make one or both partners extremely uncomfortable, so as to not have meltdowns or hard feelings, or the like. The premise of this whole topic was /is perhaps flawed.

You said you see the issue, but don't understand. What do you see as the issue? Or more importantly, what is the issue as he knows it?

Hi, dingedheart. I apologize for the delayed response. It's been a little busy over here with floods and cyclones.

I am under a LOT of stress, and suffer from speech/language dysphasia. I mention this as the sheer amount of stress I am under right now is causing the dysphasia to display even in my written word. something that is very unusual for me, and something I am struggling to adjust to. Please forgive anything that doesn't connect, and simply direct my attention to it so I may rephrase, as I will be unaware of it.

I am the poly one in our relationship. I do not have another partner, and may never have another partner. I was speaking from the way I feel in my heart, and the way I process things myself. Certainly I understand the need for rules/boundaries when talking about behaviour in public, particularly in the mono-oriented world we live in. Everyone has their own personal limits on what they are comfortable doing and/or seeing around them.

The issue I was getting at is hard for me to put into words, as I do not understand it. I get it, but can't process it.

Umm... WW has a great difficulty with merely the concept of me being intimate, to any degree, cuddling, kissing, to the point that the mere thought of me hugging T (the man I fell in love with) for one second longer than I would hug another friend would make him sick to his stomach. With another person (male or female), in particular, lovemaking, as that act is sacred to him. He will share that act with me only, and expects the same in return.

He does not understand that what I share with him is just as sacred to me, that I CANNOT share that with someone else, because that sacredness is rooted in the love that he and I share. Just as the sacredness of that act with another would have nothing whatsoever to do with him. It would be sacred to the relationship I had with that other person.

For me, I see this as interposing his own actions/ideals/motives onto me and expecting me to behave as he would. If/when I do not, then he is hurt and disappointed, and then interposes his own views of WHY I would do such a thing, again interposing his own reasons.

I find that it restricts me in expressing myself, whether to him or others, as I feel I have to rein in my feelings, and my expressions of them, to avoid hurting him. This is how I feel when the other person I love has walked out of our lives, and is not there to complicate things further. I still feel restricted. I feel I cannot express my grief too openly, just as I would be unable to express my love openly. I find that the restrictions I am feeling have had the effect of restricting me emotionally as a whole. My spirit is dampened somewhat.

It all seems to come down to each person allowing the other person to be themselves completely, and taking responsibility for their own feelings. Of course, also checking in with each other. Where is the love and support if that does not happen?

Hmm... I have a feeling I meandered off course a fair bit. Hopefully the answer you were looking for is in there somewhere. Again, I apologise if my communication is somewhat lacking at the moment. Hopefully (*crossing fingers*) we will have a few weeks of clear weather, and some peace and quiet for a bit, and I can get back to normal.