3 years of a turbulent polyam situation, feeling desperate and at a loss

[Poltergeist]

Hi All,

I've been a lurker on this website for a long time. I only just got the nerve to make an account. I've been really struggling with a difficult dynamic for 3 yrs. I'm feeling at my wit's end about it all. I'm nervous to be putting all this out there, but I figured this is the best place to go to gain some proper insight (besides my therapist), and just to vent.

I'm a hinge in a V relationship, but a part of an N dynamic as a whole. There's my husband, who we can call Hub, that I have been with for about 13 years (high school sweethearts, live together), my girlfriend Bun (long distance), & Hub's girlfriend, Fox (also long distance). Fox & I are metamours. Hub & Bun are metamours.

Hub & I tried opening our dynamic from a mono relationship of 10+ years to a polyam one 3 yrs ago. We'd been thinking about it for a while before we did, but always in fantasies where we'd be dating the same person. Eventually, we met Bun & Fox thru an online server of friends. We got crushes, tried to check in & communicate with each other, gave each other the green light, and started dating our respective long-distance partners.

Unfortunately, we didn't do the proper research/work that we really should have before jumping into something like this, & really underestimated the change that it would bring.

Bun had had some experience with polyamory with her ex prior, & things started out fine during the NRE stage, as a polycule & good friends. But eventually differences in what we all wanted/understood in regards to the dynamic started to show, as there were some misconceptions and misunderstandings between "polyamory" & "open relationship," as well as differences between wanting/not wanting a hierarchy & figuring out what terms like "kitchen sink" were, etc.

Despite one of us having experience, communication was lacking & no chats were properly had about boundaries or rules or any thing from the get-go, like they really should have been. Hub & I went into this reassuring each other that we would be each other's primaries, but Bun + Fox didn't want to be just "secondary" to anyone. This caused a lot of wrinkles, as we now had to learn about a ton of terms we didn't know before. While I was able to pivot pretty quickly, Hub struggled a lot. The change was really difficult for him. We needed more patience at this time. This is where Hub & I should have reevaluated things, but we all just tried to continue forcing views to change & ended up creating discord, having to wade through the growing pains that came from it.

Alongside all of this there were instances of miscommunication and misunderstandings that would ALSO happen, that only pushed frustrations and struggles more. Communication amongst us all was incredibly bad. There were times where Hub & I incorrectly approached stuff, despite our best intentions, to where it felt like we were making decisions for the whole polycule, against Bun & Fox's wishes. But then, when we tried to ask questions & ask for proper discussion about what something needed to look like or what someone needed, it always fell off & led to nothing.

I was often made to be the middleman, as any issues Bun or Hub had with something the other did or said was often just brought up to me. I, wanting to help, would try to intervene & do the best I could. I tried to express that direct communication between them was best, & while Hub managed to latch onto that sooner & do his best, Bun opted to recede & refuse to take things up directly with Hub, which went against his constant requests. He told me (& I told her) that he would respect her & talk about things if she actually went to him herself. But that never really happened

I was warned by my therapist about triangulation at this point, but due to not having a full understanding of what that was, I rejected the concept. My "help" only caused more problems. Frustrations between Hub and Bun increased, especially due to my constant push for communication. (Even when Hub would apologize, Bun still wouldn't show up for the relationship. His "apologies" still had back-handed things thrown in over time, but Bun never called him out, only told me.) Both had a lack of emotional regulation in diff ways.

There was added paranoia for Hub when he expressed not wanting me to vent about him to Bun. But Bun & I pushed back bc it seemed unreasonable at the time. (Now I have found that this is the second major thing, with direct chats, to break a triangle. I wish at the time that we had chosen a diff approach.) I still did my best to uphold that tho, bc I felt guilty not doing so, & saw the points on both sides. But sadly, Bun & I still seemed to step over it, even when I tried not to, which Hub would find out about, & that pushed his paranoia further. It got to the point that Hub would snoop on Bun's & my messages sometimes bc of this, which in turn hurt Bun.

From there, attempted boundaries for privacy were still eventually trampled on & breached, even to the point where Hub used my devices when I was asleep to forcibly remove me from a server I'd joined just with Bun & some of her friends, at one point just deleting messages from or about her in shared spaces during episodes where he spiraled badly. This all damaged things tremendously. Just a shit ton of constant back-and-forth & refusal to see the impact that both of their actions were having.

That was about a year ago. Hub has since recognized his own negative behaviors & with therapy has been working very hard to make changes so that stuff like that doesn't happen again, & he can at least do his best keeping his side of the street clean. There's still been a lot of bumps trying to get here tho, & still a refusal for direct communication from Bun, & then them making assumptions bc of it.

Bun does not see a therapist herself. She wants me to be an ear to listen when I mentally & physically cannot be that impartial ear to help her process through the pain, & it comes at the expense of making me feel like my situation as the hinge is always overlooked or that I had the sole power & responsibility here to do anything at all… despite me feeling like I am the only one actually putting in such intense amounts of therapy & work for so long that I can't do it any more. Direct communication now no longer seems feasible after all that has been done, & almost feels like everything just justifies Bun's stance.

If I were a smarter person & a more responsible hinge, I would have called for a re-evaluation much sooner, been more firm in creating boundaries & considered if this weren't something I could do anymore. But I'm not, & I carry a lot of guilt & shame with me now bc of it.

I'm trying to stop the cycle of triangulation now by removing myself from the middle (for good this time), & realizing the roles we all played in the big picture of things & doing so much research wherever I can, but I have been criticized by Bun for it. I have often felt like I was the only one showing up & putting forth the effort for progress/change since the beginning, with Hub picking up here & there (much more now after continued therapy). Bun (& Fox, tho it's not their fault) never really took any initiative like that. But my extreme want for things to be ok was also a part of the problem & just pushed things to the point of people practically snapping.

Hub has been making massive strides with therapy, but Bun is extremely hurt about everything with wounds that run deep & she still holds onto a lot of years-old info (outdated or not). I fear it is too late for any sort of positive change to make a difference, bc she fails to see how consistently withdrawing & needing to process things with me did more harm than good. She doesn't believe that she has been a part of any form of triangulation (even when I have found multiple sources, even from here!, that have explained it perfectly). She has instead felt the idea brought forth from my therapist wasn't real.

Fox has also been dragged through the mud during all of this, when it wasn't even anything they should have had any responsibility for. I feel terrible about that.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I feel like I failed as a hinge & a partner, despite trying so hard to do what I thought were the right things & fighting for so long through all of this that my mental health has severely been damaged. Any mistakes that I seem to keep making just feel world-ending at this point. But I feel selfish too, bc, of course, I'm not the only one.

There's been a call now to reevaluate things & see whether my metamours can co-exist at all. Bun wants to just be left alone & have complete distance for at least 2 months from Hub, which is fine. But we still haven’t discussed what that LOOKS like, & I worry about whether that will actually change anything. I've expressed concern about where we go if not, what the future will look like, if we're too damaged to really go on. Bun has told me there's at least a loose time limit, bc she doesn't want to not be living with the person she loves well into a closely-approaching age range.

Whether my metas can co-exist isn't up to me. I've expressed multiple times already that I don't intend to leave Hub & the life I have built. So, clearly that means it's really up to Bun whether she wants to stick around or not. I feel guilty about that, like I'm just perpetuating that "secondary" or "lesser than" notion, choosing the person that hurt her severely over her in the end.

I'm sorry for the long length. I ended up rambling anyway. I just feel lost, helpless, sick, like a failure and a bad guy for all of this. Advice or insight appreciated. I guess I just need to mostly feel seen. I don't entirely know what to do anymore.

 

[ref2018]

Im nervous to be putting this all out here, but I figured this is the best place to go to gain some proper insight besides my therapist, or even just to vent and let it all out.

You have 24 hours to edit or delete your post for any reason. Please double-check to make sure you haven't overshared or released any personal identifiable information in your post.

 

[Poltergeist]

You have 24 hours to edit or delete your post for any reason. Please double-check to make sure you haven't overshared or released any personal identifiable information in your post.

Okay, thank you for letting me know! I tried not to overshare, but there's been a lot for context purposes. My nervousness just comes from never having done this before.

 

[Bobbi]

There’s so much to unpack and clarify, as you were all over the place.

You speak a lot about direct communication. Between whom? If Bun is your partner she should be communicating with you…..unless she has established a relationship with Hubs, and the problem is in their relationship.

It’s all unclear. I get the impression, by the way you wrote it, that you were not a great hinge. Maybe you over-shared to Hubs and Bun and created the problems between them and then wanted them to clean it up. I’m not sure.

At a minimum, if you want to try to salvage these relationships, you should make them parallel, no contact with each other and stop oversharing about each other. You fix your problems with each partner without opinions, support, venting, or help from the other partner. They too don’t talk to you about problems between them. You stay out of it. If they want to work things out, they can do it without you having any part of it.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry you struggle. I hope you feel a bit better for the vent.

Here are my impressions/suggestions, if it helps you any. It may not be what you want to hear. I mean it kindly, okay?

You have been through A LOT.

Long story short, it sounds like you figured out that everyone in the N wants to be at least working toward co-primary. You and Hubs are primary to each other. Bun is your secondary partner. Fox is Hubs' secondary partner. It sounds like you figured out that "kitchen table poly," where all 4 can hang out together often (online?) was desired, in theory, but in actual practice it turned out that not all the people had the willingness or ability for that. So, you might have to step back to "garden party poly," where you only hang out in a group of four on special occasions, like maybe online for a New Year's gaming thing or something. The rest of the time, you hang out in dyads only.

• You + Bun
• You + Hubs
• Hubs + Fox

There could also be NO hanging out in groups at all: separate, "parallel poly." You all consent and are okay with being poly, but do not have enough in common to want to hang out as a group, even once a year. You are just basically polite if you happen to bump into each other.

Hubs seems to have realized that you need space of your own. He shouldn't snoop in your devices, or overshare. He can't be "joined at the hip" with you. He has gone to therapy to work on his issues and get himself together.

I hope you have changed all your passwords and asked him to do the same, so you both have your own devices private.

Hubs is trying to learn from his mistakes and is trying to keep to his side of the street. He now prefers, if Bun has issues with him, for her to talk to him directly. He has stopped putting you in the middle, or using you like a referee or free therapist.

Meanwhile, for all that Bun was the only one with some poly experience prior, she is NOT taking personal responsibility. She is NOT respecting your boundaries or those of Hubs.

Now that you and Hubs have invested in therapy and work on yourselves, it shows more and more how Bun will NOT do same. She is just digging into her stance:

• Bun will jump to conclusions or make assumptions
• Bun refuses to communicate directly with Hubs to clear any of that up
• Bun refuses to communicate directly with Hubs if she has other kinds of issues with him
• Bun doesn't "believe" in triangulation and will not own her part in the triangulation that she helped create here.
• Bun wants you to be the "Hubs messenger" rather than talking to him herself.
• Bun will not see a therapist to work on herself. She wants to use you as a free therapist, even though you have told her that you are NOT up for that.
• Bun thinks these things are your job to do because you are the hinge.
• Bun believes it is your responsibility to do these things FOR her, rather than taking personal responsibility for her own stuff

In short, she is not really a healthy person in general, and certainly not as a poly partner. You might check her against the healthy relationship wheel. I don't think she makes the cut.

https://rhntc.org/sites/default/files/resources/rhntc_hlthy_rlshp_wheel_spectrum_10-13-2022.pdf

If she REFUSES to work on herself, then for you, the question is: "Do I feel like being in a relationship with a wonky person who sucks me dry?"

The FEELINGS might be hard, but what you have on your hands is pretty straightforward.

You carry some guilt and shame for being new to poly, jumping in underprepared, pushing KTP maybe, and putting up with shenanigans from both Hubs and Bun longer than you should have. You are working through that with your therapist. You want to stop all the triangulating and remove yourself from the middle. That is GOOD! Keep going with all that.

This also requires you to tell Hubs or Bun consistently, "No, thanks. I will not be doing that. I suggest you talk to them yourself. I am not the messenger or free therapist. I cannot talk to you about this. Please respect my limit." You have to learn to stand firm. Detach. Play that "broken record." ENFORCE your boundary, even if it means cutting a date short, and getting offline or leaving the room, because they keep pestering you about it and not respecting your "no."

Bun doesn't want to take personal responsibility and criticizes you for moving toward healthier behaviors. Is that something you want/admire in a partner?

You might not want to think about it, but it might be time to break up with Bun if you have outgrown her and her behaviors and she refuses to change, especially if you're "carrying" her and doing most of the work in this relationship. She's just coasting and you're feeling drained.

Perhaps this helps you assess:

Should I Stay or Should I Go?

Feeling unhappy in or unsure about your relationship? Having problems you don't know how to work through, or don't even know if you should? We'll talk you through making these choices, including how-to's on conflict resolution and doing breakups better.

www.scarleteen.com

Fox has been dragged through the mud, when it wasn't anything they should have had any responsibility for...

Apologize to Fox. In a full apology.

• You apologize.
• State what poor behaviors you regret doing.
• State what have done/are doing/will be doing so you don't repeat these poor behaviors again.
• Ask for forgiveness.
• Ask for an opportunity to make amends.
• Then accept however Fox answers and be at peace with it, even if Fox decides to go parallel poly.

Keep working through all your feelings around this with your therapist.

There's been a call to now reevaluate things & to see whether my metamours can co-exist.

Your meta is Fox. Did you meant Bun and Hubs, your partners? If so, they can deal with that re-evaluation talk. You don't have to be there. You can say "All right. I expect you all to re-evaluate and tell me the outcome. I'm okay with parallel poly, if you decide that. I'm bowing out of being in the middle."

You are NOT the "meeting moderator." People sometimes want a hinge to do all sorts of things that are just not appropriate and not in the hinge's job description.

Bun wants to have complete distance for at least 2 months from Hub... We haven’t discussed what that LOOKS like. I worry about whether that will actually change anything.

I don't get why this is mysterious or requires much discussion on your part. Bun is long distance. Bun can continue her online dates with you, as usual. She can come visit you, or you can visit her, in person. You can get a hotel for the visits, or ask Hubs/roomies to clear out so you can use the home for yourselves without them around.

Hubs could ask you to take a turn clearing out later if/when he hosts Fox.

You and Hubs can separate your banking accounts, if you haven't already, so his dates come out of his personal account and your dates come out of yours. That is fair.

Bun and Hubs can discuss whatever changes this means for their meta relationship. Notice how your name is NOT in that dyad. It's not your job or responsibility.

I've expressed concern about where we go if not, what the future will look like, if we're too damaged to really go on. Bun has told me there's at least a loose time limit. She doesn't want to not be living with the person she loves well into a closely-approaching age range.

I don't understand this sentence as written. What do you mean? Bun wants to live with you and would not be content with living nearby? Or could you go back and forth between your and Bun's nest, and your and Hub's nest?

But whether my metas can co-exist isn't even up to me. I've expressed multiple times already that I don't intend to leave Hub & the life I have built. Clearly that means it's up to Bun whether she wants to stick around. I feel guilty about that, like I'm just perpetuating that "secondary" or "lesser than" notion, choosing the person that hurt her severely over her.

That is Bun putting responsibility for her emotional management onto you, rather than making the call herself. You might have to make the call and just get it done rather than go around in circles over "who is really responsible for Bun's emotional management." That kind of twirly-whirly stuff has been sucking you dry. You sound DONE with that behavior from Bun. It called circle conversations.

Again, Bun is not especially healthy-sounding to me. Rather than drag this out some more, because it's been affecting YOUR health, you could break up with her.

I ended up rambling. I feel lost, helpless, sick, a failure, a bad guy.

I'm sorry you feel bad. But if participating here feels THIS bad? Remember that your consent to participate in things or not belongs to YOU. Three years of problems is too much. You are not compatible. It sounds like it's time to move on.

There can be second chances, but there can't be a hundred, a thousand, a million chances, especially if Bun makes no actual effort to change and just wants you to do most of the work, carrying her. That sounds draining. Same ol' song, different day.

Maybe it's time to STOP participating, and end it with Bun, so over time you can start to feel better. Just because Bun was your first poly partner, doesn't mean you HAVE to be with her forever. You could end it. Take time to heal. Learn what you can from this experience, then move on to date someone else who is hopefully HEALTHY and a more compatible partner for you.

Galagirl

 

[Poltergeist]

You speak a lot about direct communication. Between whom? If Bun is your partner she should be communicating with you…..unless she has established a relationship with Hubs and the problem is in their relationship.

II get the impression that you were not a great hinge. Maybe you over-shared to Hubs and Bun and created the problems between them and then wanted them to clean it up.

At a minimum, if you want to try to salvage these relationships, you should make them parallel, no contact with each other and stop oversharing about each other. You fix your problems with each partner without opinions, support, venting, or help from the other partner. They don’t talk to you about problems between them. If they want to work things out, they can do it without you having any part of it.

Sorry for the lack of clarity. There has been three years of problems and information that I've had to cut severely short to fit within a character limit. I wanted to try and give as much context as I possibly could.

The direct communication was in regards to Hub and Bun, and issues that they were and are having towards and with each other, that I was brought into as a middleman frequently due to being the hinge— despite various attempts to step away.

For example, if Hub said or did something that bothered or hurt Bun, she consistently chose to approach me about the issues instead of confronting Hub directly, despite wishes from both me and Hub to do so. The continued refusal to do this only aided in forming what I've been told and now understand to be a destructive form of triangulation.

While I now know that these issues are not anything that I can fix, and they themselves need to be doing that work on their own, there were a lot of times through the start of these problems where an expectation that I Had To (or had some kind of responsibility to that) was placed upon me by the others, and I ended up with the Rescuer role in a triangle for majority of this time. This meant that any help I tried to give, such as being proactive in a group chat amongst us, and trying to initiate proper discussions just made things worse.

I'm struggling with the fact that Bun doesn't seem to understand that, while Hub over the years has begun to understand and attempt to uphold the fact that they should be dealing with issues between themselves and not pulling me in the way I had been. I actively try to refrain from venting or seeking solutions from one partner about another, for those very reasons you stated. I am trying not to overshare.

Hub has sought out his own support network to do the same. Bun struggles with the concept of having to do this though, despite having a support network. She dislikes the fact that I'm putting my foot down to remove myself from this dynamic because she claims it will only hurt her own progress to healing. This is where I'm consistently at a loss about.

 

[Bobbi]

Bun doesn't seem to understand that, while Hub over the years has begun to understand and attempt to uphold the fact that they should be dealing with issues between themselves and not pulling me in the way I had been. I actively try to refrain from venting or seeking solutions from one partner about another for those very reasons you stated and try not to overshare. Hub has sought out his own support network to do the same. Bun struggles with the concept of having to do this though, despite having a support network, and dislikes the fact that I'm putting my foot down to remove myself from this dynamic because she claims it will only hurt her own progress to healing. This is where I'm consistently at a loss about

I see. It looks like Gala Girl hit it on the nose. She can dislike you removing yourself from a bad situation all she wants. Her problems are not yours. You might need to end things with her if you aren’t able to get her to stop trying to force you into the middle. I'm sorry you are in this and I hope you find your resolution soon. It currently is not healthy.

 

[GalaGirl]

However, what I'm struggling with is the fact that Bun doesn't seem to understand that...

Bun doesn't HAVE to understand it in order for you to bow out and stop playing "rescuer" and not do triangulation things any more. You just STOP doing it.

Bun struggles with the concept of having to do this though, despite having a support network

It is okay for Bun to struggle. Nobody is doing anything mean to Bun in expecting each person to be responsible for their own self, their own choices, their own emotional management, how they choose to carry themselves in the world. It is fair.

She dislikes the fact that I'm putting my foot down to remove myself from this dynamic because she claims it will only hurt her.

Nah. She just doesn't like that you don't feel like carrying her any more. If she wanted ACTUAL healing, she'd learn to deal with her stuff on her own. And if she can't do it alone, she'd get a therapist to help her with it. She just wants to coast with you doing most of the work. She's guilt-tripping or hoovering you.

I'm not a doctor and I'm not trying to dx Bun here, but some people aren't heathy. They do wonky stuff. You might want to read the list in case you have been experiencing weird behaviors from Bun. If anything pops out at you, I encourage you to bring that up to your therapist.

Top 100 Traits & Behaviors — Out of the FOG | Personality Disorders, Narcissism, NPD, BPD

of Personality-Disordered Individuals

outofthefog.website

You don't have to feel bad that, for your OWN well-being, you have to put your foot down about poor behaviors. It is HEALTHY to have good personal boundaries. You aren't being MEAN to Bun to have them for yourself. You aren't being mean to her when you ENFORCE them because she is overstepping.

Galagirl

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Hub & I went into this reassuring each other that we would be each other's primaries, but Bun + Fox didn't want to be just "secondary" to anyone.

One thing I do agree with Reddit about, kind of, is that you can't be the primary of someone unless you're sharing a significant amount of your life, or there is a plan to. They are secondaries if you choose to view the world through that lens. If someone has to be primary, then that's you, because you're married and/or live together.

it felt like we were making decisions for the whole polycule against Bun & Fox's wishes

I want to separate two things here: while it's best that you sort some things out beforehand, there will always be things that crop up that you hadn't predicted. You'll have to work out how you feel about them in the moment. The goal is to perhaps minimise the number of things you didn't think about, but there is no way to think about every issue that might arise once you open your relationship.

For instance, you will not find a single thread here where we talked about what we would do if there was a pandemic and we all had to socially distance from our non-nesting partners. We sure didn't see that coming!

The second part of this is the reminder that you're allowed to create rules for your relationship that essentially exclude other people. You have to agree on those rules between you, but being poly doesn't mean that you have to be open to anything with other partners. It can be really easy for people to gaslight you into thinking you have to be open to "primary" relationships with everyone.

I would suggest totally forgetting about terms like hierarchy, because they've been insidiously warped by online poly communities.

My advice to you and Hubs is to really consider what you do have to offer other partners and think about whether your current other partners want more than you have available.

It's acceptable to admit that you made too many mistakes with these relationships, but you have a better idea how to start new ones in the future.

I'm saying this because it's my belief that at least one of these other partners are using "poly speak" to manipulate you both into meeting their need for companionship.

 

[Bobbi]

Hub and I went into this reassuring each other that we would be each other's primaries, but Bun and Fox didn't want to be "secondary" to anyone.

I’d define between all of you what these terms mean. Most people relate primary and secondary in terms of prescriptive hierarchy, where primary is most important and secondary is less important, almost disposable, number 1 and 2, if you wish.

For me, I never wanted anyone to feel less important. I tried to get away from hierarchy. But there was a very distinct difference between the long-term partner whom I lived with, and another partner that might be much newer, lived further away, that I spent less time with, had less history with, solved fewer problems with. They cannot be equal. That’s just a fact. So how do we recognize the importance they have in our lives without reducing them to number 2 or 3?

Chances are they know this. They want to feel like they are just as important. Even if you have other priorities, that doesn’t mean they aren’t a priority too.

I like to think of hierarchy as descriptive, noting relationships that may be more intertwined and longer in age, but not more important. And I like to think of orbits, instead of number 1 and 2. Orbits are like tiers that anyone can reach. In my highest orbit I have my 2 life partners (one is now my ex, but still in that orbit), my best friend and my dad. In my 2nd orbit are close family and partners. The 3rd orbit is more distant family and friends and newer partners. The 4th orbit is everyone else. A partner can move up and down orbits, depending on the depth of the relationship.

This can allow the multiple primary model where nobody is number 1 or left behind at spot number 2.

That’s me. It won't work for everyone, but I love this concept.

I’m more curious about what these long distance partners expect. They are LD. To me, a LD partner probably wouldn't be able to reach that top tier just because of lack of time together. The top tier is reserved for the closest people in my life. No matter how much I love a LD partner, they will never reach that level of closeness, unless they are in my life, actively dealing with daily things and working through life issues with me.

It’s possible the love and relationship I have with them just never reaches that level. I have loved many people in my life but only found 2 that I considered a life connection. Again, that’s me. It might be different for you or them.

I think when people don’t want to be secondary, they don’t want to feel unimportant, shoved in the back seat or disposable. They also want to know that your primary partner doesn’t have power over their relationship, like a veto. That's why you should clarify exactly what it is that makes them dislike “secondary”. It’s so much easier to deal with the underlying thoughts than the broadly-used terms.

So, figure out what primary and secondary means to you and then find out what it means to them. Then you all can work through what actions, importance and priorities you each need to feel comfortable in your individual relationships. Find agreeable ways to describe your relationships that don’t make people‘s skin crawl.

 

[JaneQSmythe]

I've been struggling with a difficult dynamic for 3 yrs. I'm feeling at my wits end. I'm nervous to be putting this all out here, but I figured this is the best place to go to gain some proper insight, besides my therapist...

I'm glad that you have joined us in posting. I hope that you feel better for having the opportunity to let that all out. It sounds like you have been trying to hold onto all of the ropes and soothe ruffled feathers for some time now, and are exhausted.

I feel lost, helpless, sick, a failure, a bad guy. I just need to feel seen.

I am sorry that you are feeling so badly. That is hard. Know that you are seen and heard.

Without some examples, it is hard to know where to start with advice. I understand that Bun, your long-distance girlfriend, and Hubs, your nesting partner, have issues with each other. Hubs has demonstrated poor behaviour (snooping in messages, removing you from a server you had joined) but has been doing better and putting in more effort thanks to therapy.

Part of my confusion is: how much interaction do Hubs and Bun have, exactly, being metamours and long-distance at that, that has led to them having so many issues that you felt the need to be a mediator? Are you all part of some larger community (gaming, for instance) where there is a lot of interaction between all of you? Are Bun and Fox together? (Not so much an N, as an hourglass shape?)

There's been a call to now reevaluate things and see whether my metamours can co-exist.

Do you mean whether your partners (Hub and Bun) can coexist as metamours? (Your metamour is Fox, Hub's other partner, who for some reason has been dragged "through the mud," even though not involved with you. That is why I asked if Fox and Bun were together.)

Bun wants to have complete distance for at least 2 months from Hub. We still haven’t discussed what that LOOKS like. I worry about whether that will actually change anything.

I don't understand what it looks like NOW. It sounds like Bun is asking for "parallel poly"-- she interacts with you and doesn't have anything to do with Hub. OK. You are long distance. So you set aside whatever time for whatever interactions you have in your relationship with her (via phone/video/whatever) and Hub is not involved. What is the problem exactly? Was the original goal "kitchen table" (not sink) poly? and now some people have to adjust expectations?

I've expressed concern about where we go if not, what the future will look like... Bun has told me there's at least a loose time limit bc she doesn't want to not be living with the person she loves well into a closely-approaching age range... I've expressed multiple times already that I dont intend on leaving Hub...

Whoa, Nellie!!! Whole different ballgame here! You are talking about future possibilities. They are infinite.

Solve the here-and-now problems first. Currently you are in a nesting relationship with Hub and a LD relationship with Bun. She is asking for more space between herself and Hub as metamours. Flash to the future (an age range) and Bun wants to be in a nesting relationship ("living with") the person she loves (you, presumably). (Is Bun poly herself?) Exactly HOW long-distance is this LDR? Are people talking about moving?

JaneQ

 

[MeeraReed]

It's hard to give advice without a specific example. What did Hub do that bothered Bun, for example?

But in general I am not sure you are taking the right approach by telling Bun to work out her issues with Hub by talking to him directly and not involving you. If your husband does something that bothers or hurts your girlfriend, that actually sounds like something YOU need to work out with your husband.

Or, if Bun doesn't have a legitimate complaint about Hub, then YOU need to work that out with Bun.

It is unlikely that metamours would have issues with each other that do not involve their relationships with you.

It's not necessarily good hinge behavior to tell your two partners to work it out between the two of them, when surely the conflict has something to do with you and the dynamics of your relationships with each of them.

But, since you don't give any specific example of what the conflict is, I can't really identify what the problem is.

 

[Evie]

From what I can glean, Bun has said she wants parallel poly so she doesn't have to deal with Hub anymore because of the years of misunderstandings/hurt/resentment etc..

I agree with Meera that, "it is unlikely that metamours would have issues with each other that do not involve their relationships with you."

I'm also wondering why they had so much to do with each other in the first place. I guess you were aiming for kitchen table polyamory, but the long distance thing usually tends to trump kitchen table just because of logistics. Or perhaps you were all trying to live together when these issues were happening? And now she's moved out?

Then there's the issue that Bun also wants to be able to live with YOU as a part of your relationship. There are plenty of hinges that spend some time living with one partner and some with another. It's very difficult when distances are large and the hinge isn't just going the same distance in a different direction home on whatever day it is. And it sounds like you and Hub definitely only want to have one house that is yours and not have second houses (rented or owned) with Bun and Fox respectively. So you will forever be guests of Bun and Fox, and they will be your guests (although it sounds like Bun won't be visiting your and Hub's home anymore). There are some very practical hierarchy considerations here. I've got the same with my husband - we own a property together, and I don't have that with my long distance partner.

You've said you don't know what your new relationship with Bun and Hubs being parallel LOOKS like. Sounds like this is the place to start. With the calendar.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello Poltergeist,

There are four people in this polycule: you, Hub, Bun, and Fox, but it sounds like you have been carrying the entire load for all four of you. You need each person to carry their own load. When two people have a problem/issue with each other, you need them to communicate with each other about it, rather than turning to you to be a referee.

I also note that Bun and Fox are long-distance partners, and long-distance relationships are almost always rife with problems. I wonder if the four of you have any specific plans/goals for how you will reduce that distance. And, Bun and Fox want all four of you to be primary to each other, which it sounds like did not sit well with you and Hub.

I do not think you are "the bad guy" in this situation, you have tried your best to keep everyone happy. From reading your first post, I gather that most of the problems here have originated between Hub and Bun. From there, perhaps those problems have spread to all four of you. Meanwhile, you are shouldering the blame for everything.

I do not think you are "the failure" in all of this, if anything all four of you share equally in the failures/mishaps as a group. Although if I may say so, from what little I know so far it seems like the greatest failure lies with Bun. She has been particularly difficult to deal with. Hub has perhaps been the second-greatest failure, although at least he is getting therapy and doing something about his issues.

You are styling yourself as "the hinge" in this situation, and while I agree you are *a* hinge, I would point out that Hub is also a hinge. Not to mention every problem that exists in a polycule is not automatically the hinge's fault. It is not your job to fix everything. Three other people here should also be doing their parts.

Anyway, I hope things get better for you.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[Poltergeist]

Hello everyone, sorry for how long it's been-- I'm a busy college student and have been struggling finding the time and energy lately. Phew, I'm not sure where to even begin, but I'll do my best. Sorry again for any lack of clarity, and thank you to everyone for giving input.

Part of my confusion is: how much interaction do Hubs and Bun have, exactly, being metamours and long-distance at that, that has led to them having so many issues that you felt the need to be a mediator? Are you all part of some larger community (gaming, for instance) where there is a lot of interaction between all of you? Are Bun and Fox together? (Not so much an N, as an hourglass shape?)

I guess to start with I can clarify the situation around our circumstances. Hub and I met Bun and Fox online, yes, through a shared hang-out server with a bunch of other friends as well. We have a few different online servers where we all exist in together, so it used to be pretty frequently that Hub and Bun would interact. Nowadays, the only place Bun is willing to interact with Hub is in our shared, private polycule groupchat that we made ages ago, as she has withdrawn from shared server spaces bc she just doesn't feel comfortable enough to be around Hub anymore.

Fox and Bun are not dating at all, they are just friends, so it's purely an N dynamic if that makes sense.

As for physical distance, Fox lives quite a few states away. It's worse for Bun though-- she lives completely out of the country. Quite the definition of a LD relationship, which makes things a lot more difficult.

To be honest, GalaGirl really nailed a lot of it, and it really hit me hard to see the accuracy (which isn't a bad thing, it was a bit cathartic tbh)

Long story short, it sounds like you figured out that everyone in the N wants to be at least working toward co-primary. You and Hubs are primary to each other. Bun is your secondary partner. Fox is Hubs' secondary partner. It sounds like you figured out that "kitchen table poly," where all 4 can hang out together often (online?) was desired, in theory, but in actual practice it turned out that not all the people had the willingness or ability for that.

I’d define between all of you what these terms mean. Most people relate primary and secondary in terms of prescriptive hierarchy, where primary is most important and secondary is less important, almost disposable, number 1 and 2, if you wish.

Yes, this is all true. The problem at the start was that, due to a lack of communication between us all, and even between Hub and I, we were all on different pages as to what we wanted the polycule to look like as a whole. Hub and I did go into it first with a more hierarchal view of it (in the sense that we viewed eachother as our primaries, no matter what happened), but I ended up swaying my view after Bun and Fox expressed discomfort about being "second" to us, even if by all technicalities that was true. They completely viewed "primary" and "secondary" as "more important"/"less important", and I never really felt that way at all, and neither did Hub when it came to me and Fox. They also disliked being referred to as the "new" relationships, even if by all technical purposes they were the relationships formed from a new dynamic that Hub and I switched to from a 10+ years mono one. It was a lot of insecurity-fuelled stuff.
However, that was where the issues first arose, because while Hub never viewed Fox and I in any hierarchal way, he really struggled with the concept of Bun wanting to be a "primary" for me and be seen as an equal (again, even more insecurity-fueled things), and Bun internalized this severely. Hub was torn between two minds, because he would tell me there'd be times it was fine and didn't know why he felt the way he did, and then times where he didn't like it and didn't like Bun and really found it difficult to work through this change.

I was able to pivot easier, but I also was able to be more patient with Hub (and was willing to be) bc heck, it was our lack of research and communication innitially that led to this, and I was more sympathetic to the problems he was experiencing. However, because Bun knew that he harbored views like this, it led more to her withdrawing and not directly confronting Hub about anything for a fear of him growing angry at her, so she often just came to me. In turn Hub would then also come to me, because while flawed, he often tried to make attempts at open communication with Bun that just never worked and it led to a lot of frustration that grew over time. All of this started out very much as Bun feeling like a victim (but not making any initiation or doing any work to combat this, and often LET herself withdraw and let Hub "win" due to her pathological avoidance to do things that were Expected of her), Hub becoming a perpetrator due to the issues he was having and frustrations he was dealing with (while also feeling like a victim in his own right), and me being a rescuer and really trying to enforce when certain behavior was just not okay, but trying to be as neutral as I could (though of course I'm too close to this to accurately do that no matter how hard I tried, because often times my explanations were taken as justifications or as if I supported the negative thing I'd be explaining when that wasn't true-- nuance was often lost). Many of Hub's frustrations were formed from the lopsidedness of it all, and how he felt he was the only one being held so severely accountable for his actions but nobody else was, that for a long time he just pushed back against doing so. That's no longer how he is now though, as he has been working very hard to see the impacts of his own actions and behavior, but he's the only one so far who has. But all of this made sharing any sort of online space all together incredibly difficult, and often just emotionally distressing if Hub became passive aggressive, or if Bun thought he was being such even if he wasn't, and there not being a good direct line of communication between the two.

So taking all of that, these issues being exacerbated by poor communication overall, and trampling on desires that Hub previously expressed (the two I stated in my last post)-- I ended up being pulled in as a sort of mediator and free-therapist for them both. But in the end, I was trying to do the emotional and confrontational work for the both of them that they themselves should have been doing from the start. Unfortunately Hub is currently the only one to recognize this.

When the groupchat we have was made, it was meant as a means to open a more direct line of communication so that I wasn't having my partners both coming to me separately with issues they were having... but regardless, that still happened. And due to the GC having all four of us, Fox was often exposed to issues that they really had no way to fix and really shouldn't have been. A few things that involved them, like what we wanted the polycule to look like, sure, but not much of anything else that should have been more between Hub and Bun. Fox was mostly there, I think, as emotional support.

My advice to you and Hubs is to really consider what you do have to offer other partners and think about whether your current other partners want more than you have available.

It's acceptable to admit that you made too many mistakes with these relationships, but you have a better idea how to start new ones in the future.

I think, perhaps, this was the case all along... Bun and Fox had prior relationships that didn't really go all that well, with wounds that came from them. And like I said, Bun's previous relationship was a poly one as well, and her ex wasn't all that great to her. She always had a bit of a habit of receding instead of being confrontational, which I wholly understood because I grew up much the same myself-- but I still did it because I knew it was what was meant to be done, whether I liked it or not. Bun saw it differently.
Though with especially being long distance, I think the pitfall of already not being able to fully offer what Bun really needed was there from the start.

I agree with Meera that, "it is unlikely that metamours would have issues with each other that do not involve their relationships with you."

I do agree with that to a degree too, but sometimes some examples of issues often came down to even one of them just... having a problem with how the other worded something they said. Which is something that is not anything I can do or help with-- the only person that can give insight into what they mean is the one that said it, and I often tried to express this but it wasn't really heard, if that makes sense. I can't justify or explain someone's reasons for them, but many times I was made to feel that I had to, and this happened a lot. This is typically what led to misunderstandings a lot, or sometimes Hub or Bun jumping to conclusions about something the other said without actually checking with the other what they truly meant and seeking that answer elsewhere.

I think now, the reason I keep getting frustrated and suffering deeply is because of that lack of responsibility, when it's been expected from me and Hub from the start. It's just not clicking that her actions have also played a part in this all, and I'm drained and exhausted

 

[GalaGirl]

To be honest, GalaGirl really nailed a lot of it, and it really hit me hard to see the accuracy (which isn't a bad thing, it was a bit cathartic tbh)

I'm glad that being seen/validated was cathartic for you. I hope you feel better from the additional venting.

Which is something that is not anything I can do or help with-- the only person that can give insight into what they mean is the one that said it, and I often tried to express this but it wasn't really heard, if that makes sense. I can't justify or explain someone's reasons for them, but many times I was made to feel that I had to, and this happened a lot.

If Bun and/or Hubs was putting you in the middle like that, it's okay to decline. "Sorry. I can't help you with that. I don't know what they meant." And do nothing else.

This is typically what led to misunderstandings a lot, or sometimes Hub or Bun jumping to conclusions about something the other said without actually checking with the other what they truly meant and seeking that answer elsewhere.

If jumping to conclusions doesn't serve them well, they can learn to behave differently. You do not have to lift a finger.

I imagine it might be uncomfortable for you to watch either of them wrestle with discomfort, but that's what learning new stuff is. Growth happens outside the current comfort zone. The person reaches beyond that to learn new things, hopefully in a reasonable "comfortably uncomfortable" way, so it gently stretches the person, and not like going waaaay out there and taking on too much and causing themselves bad stress.

If Bun or Hubs is being called to change/grow, don't get in the way. Leave them to do it, or not.

I think now, the reason I keep getting frustrated and suffering deeply is because of that lack of responsibility, when it's been expected from me and Hub from the start. It's just not clicking that her actions have also played a part in this all. I'm drained and exhausted

If Bun's behaviors are too draining and exhausting to keep going with her, it's okay to break up and not do this any more so you can be free of more suffering. I don't think there is much else to do or say on your end. It really does boil down to "Do I feel like being in a relationship with a wonky person who sucks me dry and exhausts me, a person who won't take personal responsibility for her share of the problems and makes no movement towards solutions?"

Galagirl

 

[Poltergeist]

Hubs seems to have realized that you need space of your own. He shouldn't snoop in your devices, or overshare. He can't be "joined at the hip" with you. He has gone to therapy to work on his issues and get himself together.

I hope you have changed all your passwords and asked him to do the same, so you both have your own devices private.

Yes, we have, no worries there!! Honestly, before all of this, there was never a worry about anything like this. We shared with each other what we wanted to and kept separate what we didn't. Now though, I have passcode locks on all my devices for privacy, though mostly for Bun's peace of mind and to help Hub with not snooping, and it hasn't happened since. However, because we do live together, sometimes it's hard to completely avoid him not seeing something, purely because I'm sitting near him, which has caused problems before. I've been trying very hard to be mindful of that, as well, but it feels like there's only so much I can do.

You carry some guilt and shame for being new to poly, jumping in underprepared, pushing KTP maybe, and putting up with shenanigans from both Hubs and Bun longer than you should have.

I think when people don’t want to be secondary, they don’t want to feel unimportant, shoved in the back seat or disposable. They also want to know that your primary partner doesn’t have power over their relationship, like a veto.

Yes, both of these things are exactly it and play a huge role in the problems we've faced. When Hub and I went into things, we were very much in the mindset of being primaries, no matter what happened with our other partners, and we held our bond to the highest importance. That unfortunately did mean that, at first, there was a bit of allowance of the idea of veto stuff, if I remember correctly, or at least Hub and me wanting to make sure about the other's comfort above all else, and that was where we had things all wrong.

Or at least, in approaching things in this way, it should have probably been up to Bun and Fox whether they wanted to be in a relationship like that and bow out then. But they didn't, and it led to a lot of discussions about them not wanting to feel less important or disposable, which is not what Hub and I wanted for our other partners either.

From there is where the terms of KTP came in and having to adjust our views accordingly, but Hub struggled with that a lot at the time, because he didn't want to feel less important to me, and it led to a lot of discussions and potentially created wounds when we were having to basically force these changes so suddenly. It was a lot of insecurity, like I said, wrapped up around everyone, and I was always so afraid to upset any of them when all I really wanted was a healthy discussion about it all.

What is the problem exactly? Was the original goal "kitchen table" (not sink) poly? and now some people have to adjust expectations?

I don't understand this sentence as written. What do you mean? Bun wants to live with you and would not be content with living nearby? Or could you go back and forth between your and Bun's nest, and your and Hub's nest?

So, it's very complicated, but these both play a role together, too. For the first one, about adjusting expectations-- yes, completely, and still even now. We had to adjust expectations 3 years ago, shifting to wanting a KTP dynamic and then what that might look like going forward, and dealt with the pains that came from that, since Hub wasn't really okay with KTP at the time.

But we are having to again adjust expectations, because, while Hub is now doing a lot better about things, Bun cannot have any sort of platonic relationship with him after all the damage that has been done. NOW we have to try and figure out what parallel poly looks like for us for however long she needs, especially since we share so many spaces online. It's honestly so messy and confusing that trying to clarify it is equally as hard.

As for the second-- because Bun lives in another country entirely, we someday wanted to be able to live together, yes. That expectation is the reason so much of this has been so difficult to parse and figure out, though. I already have a house with my husband, already am married, already have a whole life, and I already know these things have also weighed sadly on Bun because she doesn't get to have those experiences.

Living together also means one of us moving whole countries, and if I move, then that would mean having to work out Hub and even potentially Fox moving, as well. I already know Fox has not wanted to do that.

Bun would have to move here, but if my metamours have such a turbulent relationship happening, it means any chance of them being able to co-exist near each other is pretty much impossible, with the way things are now. We're all in our late 20s, and Bun has stated that she doesn't want to be living alone going into her early 30s, but that doesn't feel like nearly enough time to heal any wounds, and it also conflicts with things between Hub and me (like, we'd intended to live in our current home for quite a few years before thinking about getting a bigger place, and I also need to wait to finish college too). It's just... a lot.

 

[Bobbi]

If it isn’t obvious, chat is almost always a horrible way to communicate through issues. So much is lost through chat and everything can be read the wrong way.

 

[Poltergeist]

If it isn’t obvious, chat is almost always a horrible way to communicate through issues. So much is lost through chat and everything can be read the wrong way.

Yes, I completely agree. I had tried mentioning the idea of voice calls before, but unfortunately Bun and Fox weren't comfortable with that. I have been able to actually get us to meet with a therapist in a group setting through Zoom at least... twice? three times? before, but even there I have found that the two have still misinterpreted the others' words. It just feels sorta hopeless.

 

[Poltergeist]

If Bun and/or Hubs was putting you in the middle like that, it's ok to decline. "Sorry. I can't help you with that. I don't know what they meant." And do nothing else.

Yeah, I'm trying to get better at doing this now. Even though I would say that before, I would still often give my two cents, and in doing so just never made matters any better. There have been so many times where I just couldn't sit and let things fly because of how misconstrued or misunderstood the notions were... but I know I didn't help in doing so. Having to be between two people that I love was always agonizing.
But even when explaining this now, and taking accountability for that, and knowing that I cannot be the person to validate certain feelings anymore, so that I do not make things worse, Bun just fully disagrees... It is very hard having to be rigid on that, but I'm trying.

If Bun's behaviors are too draining and exhausting to keep going with her. it's okay to break up and not do this anymore so you can be free of more suffering. I don't think there is much else to do or say on your end. It really does boil down to, "Do I feel like being in a relationship with a wonky person who sucks me dry and exhausts me and won't take personal responsibility for her share of the problems and makes no movements towards solutions?"

Yes, as much as it really hurts to think about, I'm not sure if I have it in me to go through this all again with Bun, after already going through it with Hub. I mean, Bun always overlooked her role in this, but because Hub was just louder about the problems he was facing or things he was doing, it really was as if she were able to fly by without accountability for a long time as well, because so much focus was elsewhere. Now that Hub is making big changes and doing better with accountability, it just truly highlights Bun's side that much more now. It's depressing, but so much of this went on for so long because of the role she played too, and I don't know how much longer I can continue on with such a lack of responsibility there. There's a lot I need to think about.