A bit adrift

[OverandOver]

Hi, I was glad to stumble across this forum and see that it is active. I've been active on various forums for 20 years, but most have died a slow death ever since Facebook took over the world.

I'm in a very unusual situation I never expected to find myself in. I feel the situation is extremely recognizable to anyone who knows me well IRL. But the circumstances leave me wthout a neutral sounding board so I am just going to cross my fingers no one I know lurks here, and that if they do they will be understanding and kind (and quiet!) Here's my story (so hopefully you like stories!)

As college freshmen, Nick and James became close friends. "Brothers from another mother." Six months later, Nick asked me out. A few years later James met Jenny and she and I became fast friends.

We have been doing life together since we were teenagers. In each others' weddings, weekly dinners, babies (at each others' births), family vacations, holidays, etc. They even lived in our house for months when theirs needed repairs. Our children view each other as closer to siblings than friends. We were definitely in very traditional, monogomous marriages, though the topic of swinging was very lightly danced around on certain evenings when drinks were had.

Nine years ago, my husband was diagnosed with a terminal illness. James and Jenny remained the most steadfast friends you could ever hope for. Jenny practically twisted herself into shapes in the intervening 5 years to try to help me in any way she could find as I slowly became a full time caregiver and then a widow, and James could not have been a more empathetic, caring and devoted friend to my husband even as he became more and more disabled and less like himself.

And then we kept on doing life together like we always had. It's been a few years now and Jenny basically offered to fold me into their marriage. I get the impression she and her husband have been talking about it for a while. I suppose time will tell if it was a mistake or not, but things escalated quickly from there. I suppose that can happen when there's already 20 years of relationship history.

As far as I can tell, I'm a secondary partner for each of them. I think Jenny would like to imagine it on something closer to an equal footing, but I think she's a bit swept up in the idea at the moment and that realistically and logistically, they are the primary and most important relationship, at least until the kids are launched. (We had already talked about moving in together once the kids were grown, when it was still platonic.)

Anyway. I feel a bit unmoored and out of my depth. This is not a relationship like I have ever known before and it's very difficult to wrap my thoughts and feelings around. If you read all that, thanks! And hi!

 

[Evie]

Hi and welcome! And thank you for sharing your life so candidly with us.

That journey through your husband's illness and passing must have been so very hard. I hope you had time to get your new bearings before things escalated with your friends, now partners. But then, since they were there the whole time, they more than anyone new in your life understand what you went through.

You say you're feeling unmoored and out of your depth - is the just information-wise about "good polyamory", or emotionally are you not quite ready to be enfolded into their marriage?

It can be a steep learning curve, but I believe it's incredibly worth it. Honestly, I'd love to have a 20 year friendship as the foundation of something more.

I guess the crunch might come if you ever decide you're ready to date someone else, perhaps someone you just meet. But now doesn't have to be the time to plan for that, just so long as you'll be able to bring it up with each of them if it ever becomes important to you.

Maybe these are your next 'til death do us part people and you'll be in a closed relationship of three rather two and have the joy of growing old together. That's the beauty of poly, there are many ways of doing it - no one true way. The only universal is great communication, including being able to gracefully accept changes as they come (even if it feels like you've been given bad news in the moment.) Those changes might be a small thing - cancellation of a date night because of a family emergency - or a big thing - unexpected introduction of a new romantic interest.

I hope you stick around and continue to share your experiences with the forum, and ask any and all questions that would help you learn about poly in general, or specifically about navigating your own circumstances.

Evie

 

[GalaGirl]

Welcome. I'm very sorry to hear of your husband's passing after long illness.

It's ok to be new and be seeking a neutral sounding board.

FWIW, my initial thoughts when reading your post.

Before getting involved with Jenny and Jeremy, did you date other people as a widow?

How much preparation did each one of you do for open/poly relationship?

Is Jeremy good at speaking up for himself? Or is he in the habit of letting Jenny run the show?

It's been a few years now and Jenny basically offered to fold me into their marriage.

Is that something you wanted? Or maybe you just wanted a casual sex thing. Or a short term FWB thing. But not like a co-primary 3 people marriage thing? Is that the source of difficulty? Trying something out and realizing you want to scale back some and not knowing how to bring it up because you don't want to hurt long time friends feelings? Like jumping in at too big of a commitment level?

Be careful you aren't being too "guest" ish because it was framed as you being folded into their marriage like they call the shots and you don't get a voice. You are obligated to look out for your own well being and not get swept away into stuff. You might read the relationship bill of rights.

I think Jenny would like to imagine it on something closer to an equal footing, but I think she's a bit swept up in the idea at the moment

Possible that you all are a bit swept away. Before it gets further in, you might want slow down long enough to talk about what the expectations are. So all are clear.

For this group to be practicing something like a co-primary model? It has to be a "3 person yes." It's not going to be that just because Jenny wants it to be that. That's just one person.

Are you able to say "I love/care about you a lot, but not even for you will I do stuff that goes against my values or hurts me" to each of them? And not let yourself get railroaded into stuff you don't really want to be doing?

As far as I can tell, I'm a secondary partner for each of them.

You don't sound certain. Before consenting to participate here, you did not clarify what open model you all would be practicing together? Not exhaustive, but some open models are here.

Is it that you are expected to date them both, when really you want to just date Jeremy and not pursue a romance with Jenny? Or just date Jenny but not date Jeremy?

Did this grouping discuss whether or not you would date outside of them to find a new primary if you wanted one?

Will they also be poly dating outside this trio?

What does "secondary" mean in this grouping? Like you are valued and respected as a person, but you aren't living there like a "nesting partner?" Something else?

realistically and logistically, they are the primary and most important relationship, at least until the kids are launched.

What does this mean? Could you be willing to clarify?

Why is their relationship the most important thing to you? Rather than your own well being?

What is going to change when the kids are launched? Are you all going to be "out" as poly then? Something else?

What happens if you don't want to move in with them and prefer to maintain your own space so if things go wrong, you aren't stuck living with exes? Or even if nothing is wrong -- you just want to have your own space? While you have known each other as friends for a long time, you are just getting to know each other as poly partners. Might read this first and really think on it.

https://www.kathylabriola.com/articles/poly-living-styles-should-we-all-live-together

There are posts here from people who struggle with close quarters -- not wanting to hear sex noises or witness PDA, or see how one dynamic is different than another, or not being able to get away or feeling trapped in their room if two of the people are having an argument.

I feel a bit unmoored and out of my depth. This is not a relationship like I have ever known before and it's very difficult to wrap my thoughts and feelings around.

Are you able to articulate what you've been thinking? Or what you've been feeling? Is this fun and enjoyable for you? Or not so much?

Not the only places to read, but in case it helps you.

Practical Polyamory

Information on relationship skills, education and activism information related to the practice of polyamory; polyamory media resource.

practicalpolyamory.com

kathylabriola.com - Articles

New Book Reviews by Kathy Labriola: Monogamy? In this Economy? Finances, Childrearing, and Other Practical Concerns of Polyamory by Laura Boyle Click Here _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

www.kathylabriola.com

Might also consider a copy of "Opening Up."

You might not be an expert on poly but you ARE the expert on YOU and what you are and are not willing to put up with in your relationships. So do your soul searching. Slow this down a bit and then talk so you can all be on the same page rather than jumping in blind.

And hopefully with that clarity gained, you all get to enjoy how it unfolds and how it works out over time.

Galagirl

 

[OverandOver]

You say you're feeling unmoored and out of your depth - is the just information-wise about "good polyamory", or emotionally are you not quite ready to be enfolded into their marriage?

It can be a steep learning curve, but I believe it's incredibly worth it. Honestly, I'd love to have a 20 year friendship as the foundation of something more.

I guess the crunch might come if you ever decide you're ready to date someone else, perhaps someone you just meet. But now doesn't have to be the time to plan for that, just so long as you'll be able to bring it up with each of them if it ever becomes important to you.

Maybe these are your next 'til death do us part people and you'll be in a closed relationship of three rather two and have the joy of growing old together. That's the beauty of poly, there are many ways of doing it - no one true way. The only universal is great communication, including being able to gracefully accept changes as they come (even if it feels like you've been given bad news in the moment.) Those changes might be a small thing - cancellation of a date night because of a family emergency - or a big thing - unexpected introduction of a new romantic interest.

I hope you stick around and continue to share your experiences with the forum, and ask any and all questions that would help you learn about poly in general, or specifically about navigating your own circumstances.

Evie

Thank you for your kind reply. I think I feel out of my depth in large part because I have never been a secondary partner? I don't know how to do that and I don't have my footing. Wanting time and attention of course, but not wanting to take too much time and attention away from Jenny.

I do think the idea of me ever dating someone in the future is an issue I need to raise.

Thank you. I'm an avid forum-er, so I suspect I will be around.

 

[Evie]

Here's a copy-paste from another website - I haven't included the link because when I went there a notice came up saying the website may not be up for much longer.

Relationship Bill Of Rights (abridged)

In all intimate relationships:

• to be free from coercion, violence and intimidation
  (Franklin's note: This includes violence such as destroying property, hitting the wall near you, and other acts of violence not specifically directed at your person)
• to choose the level of involvement and intimacy you want
• to revoke consent to any form of intimacy at any time
• to be told the truth
• to say no to requests
• to hold and express differing points of view
• to feel all your emotions
• to feel and communicate your emotions and needs
• to set boundaries concerning your privacy needs
• to set clear limits on the obligations you will make
• to seek balance between what you give to the relationship and what is given back to you
• to know that your partner will work with you to resolve problems that arise
• to choose whether you want a monogamous or polyamorous relationship
• to grow and change
• to make mistakes
• to end a relationship

In poly relationships:

• to decide how many partners you want
• to choose your own partners
• to have an equal say with each of your partners in deciding the form your relationship with that partner will take
• to choose the level of time and investment you will offer to each partner
• to understand clearly any rules that will apply to your relationship before entering into it
• to discuss with your partners decisions that affect you
• to have time alone with each of your partners
• to enjoy passion and special moments with each of your partners

As problematic as the original author/s have become, this is still a great jumping off point for consideration and conversation with you partner/s.

(Are you romantic/sexual with both of them or only him? I originally got the impression both, but then your last post implied only him.)

 

[OverandOver]

Hokay, the nitty gritty stuff.

Nope, I have not dated. I have fairly young children and a busy and full life and my view on that has been that I'm open to a new partner, but not looking for it. Since all my socialization occurs with women and married couples, I really wasn't holding my breath.

How much preperation did we do? Absolutely none. I mean, I'm pretty aware of poly, and I think Jenny has been trying to learn more about it, and she and her husband have talked extensively. But no. I think they finally decided and then she raised the idea to me and the whole thing kind of flipped upside down in a singular moment.

I don't know what I want. All the things on offer are very new to me. I'm certainly interested in giving this a shot. I do believe I could gracefully make excuses and back out if I needed, without much issue.

I absolutely feel guest-ish. Jenny has tried to counter that any time I say something like that. She does not see it that way and she doesn't want me to feel that way, but I do. I have tremendous respect for them as people and for their marriage and I feel like my number one job is not to make any waves that could upset anything. And both of them would be upset if they knew I felt that way, but I can't help it. I will say that Jenny seems to be...more and more comfortable with everything on a daily basis. Seeing her relax helps me to as well, so maybe it is an issue time will solve. I know that I have some concerns I would really like to talk about, and I would probably feel better afterwards, but I can't seem to get up the guts. (That's not related to this relationship, that's just me in general.)

I agree about expectations. I'm pretty good on Jenny's. I have a conversation I would like to have with James - hopefully tomorrow - if I don't chicken out. Just about what exactly he's looking for out of this. Are we the same friends we've been for 20 years, who just happen to sleep together now, or are we building a relationship. And I'm 99% sure what his answer is, but I want to know for sure. There are also two or three things I would like to raise that I need, that I don't think they have thought about. If I can just not chicken out.

I'm not too worried about things that go against my values or being railroaded...I can't think of anything that would fall into those categories, but they're both pretty sensitive to my feelings and reactions(?) body language(?)...Honestly they check in on me far more than I need. I'm not worried about that.

We do need to talk about what happens if I date later on. No, they would not be dating. They've been very clear this is an "only me" situation.

I have strong feelings about marriage. I would never want to be a reason for disruption of someone else's. I don't think we'll be out when the kids launch, we will just have more time and freedom. Kids demand an absolute crap ton of your time, and generally require you to be home every night. I didn't actually plan to sell my house. It'll be long paid off by then and I see no reason to. I was the person who texted, in a fit of lonliness, that I was moving in once the kids were gone, so get ready. They just so happened to have already been talking about bringing me in. That is a minimum 6, probably more like 10 years away. It's not a pressing issue, and if I didn't want to, I am sure there'd be no issue. And while it was temporary, we have lived together before. All the kids were there too. I expected us to find the limits of our friendship, ha. But it was nice.

I generally consider myself very articulate, and can pretty easily put what I am feeling into words. Can I say those words to a partner? Um.

And yes, it has been really fun. And new, and interesting. And I'd like to see if it's something I can settle in to. It's also been a little bit stressful. And the bad part is that I KNOW, if I raised the handful of issues I have, that they would be understanding, that I would feel better, and the stress would leave. But it is so incredibly hard for me to do that.

Thank you. I have ordered that book.

Welcome. I'm very sorry to hear of your husband's passing after long illness.

Before getting involved with Jenny and Jeremy, did you date other people as a widow?

How much preparation did each one of you do for open/poly relationship?

Is that something you wanted? Or maybe you just wanted a casual sex thing. Or a short term FWB thing. But not like a co-primary 3 people marriage thing? Is that the source of difficulty? Trying something out and realizing you want to scale back some and not knowing how to bring it up because you don't want to hurt long time friends feelings?

Be careful you aren't being too "guest" ish because it was framed as you being folded into their marriage like they call the shots and you don't get a voice. You are obligated to look out for your own well being and not get swept away into stuff. You might read the relationship bill of rights.

Possible that you all are a bit swept away. Before it gets further in, you might want slow down long enough to talk about what the expectations are. So all are clear.

For this group to be practicing something like a co-primary model? It has to be a "3 person yes." It's not going to be that just because Jenny wants it to be that. That's just one person.

Are you able to say "I love you a lot, but not even for you will I do stuff that goes against my values or hurts me" to each of them? And not let yourself get railroaded into stuff you don't really want to be doing?

You don't sound certain. Before consenting to participate here, you did not clarify what open model you all would be practicing together? Not exhaustive, but some open models are here.

Is it that you are expected to date them both, when really you want to just date Jeremy and not pursue a romance with Jenny? Or just date Jenny but not date Jeremy?

Did this grouping discuss whether or not you would date outside of them to find a new primary if you wanted one?

Will they also be poly dating outside this trio?



What does this mean? Could you be willing to clarify? Why is their relationship the most important thing to you? Rather than your own well being? What is going to change when the kids are launched? Are you all going to be "out" as poly then? Something else?

What happens if you don't want to move in with them and prefer to maintain your own space so if things go wrong, you aren't stuck living with exes? While you have known each other as friends for a long time, you are just barely getting to know each other as poly partners. Might read this first and really think on it.

https://www.kathylabriola.com/articles/poly-living-styles-should-we-all-live-together



You might not be an expert on poly but you ARE the expert on YOU and what you are and are not willing to put up with in your relationships.

Are you able to articulate what you've been thinking? Or what you've been feeling? Is this fun and enjoyable for you? Or not so much?

Not the only places to read, but in case it helps you.

Practical Polyamory

Information on relationship skills, education and activism information related to the practice of polyamory; polyamory media resource.

practicalpolyamory.com

kathylabriola.com - Articles

New Book Reviews by Kathy Labriola: Monogamy? In this Economy? Finances, Childrearing, and Other Practical Concerns of Polyamory by Laura Boyle Click Here _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

www.kathylabriola.com

Might also consider a copy of "Opening Up."

Galagirl

 

[OverandOver]

(Are you romantic/sexual with both of them or only him? I originally got the impression both, but then your last post implied only him.)

Both, but the relationship with him is the only one that's hard to navigate. In large part because I've been in relationships with men before, but being a secondary is so different to anything I'm used to. In another part because she and I see each other all the time, have quiet moments of privacy all the time - but he and I really do not. Which is one of the things I wanted to bring up to them.

 

[Evie]

Well worth bringing up. Imo, it's really important to be able to develop both intimacies simultaneously (although it's highly unlikely to say both equally).

 

[Jeansandsneakers]

Hi O

Im a little concerned that:

* Jenny is coming to this as the lead, however
** neither she nor James have done any ‘prep’/homework; and
** James doesn’t appear to be part of the conversations about it between you and Jenny.

You mentioned everyone possibly being swept away by the idea. The idea of this working is fantastic and even poetic… but the reality of jumping in and figuring everything out as you go along (aka the hard way) sounds risky to your friendship legacy and your dear heart.

Look after yourself xo

 

[GalaGirl]

Thanks for more info.

I don't want to overwhelm you. I did want to lift this up though.

A triad model where everyone dates everyone else is like 3 V's stacked up together. Each one of you is a hinge with 2 sweeties. Each one of you is a metamour to the other two. It's one of the hardest models to do. If you all jumped into sharing sex quickly? Could slow it down and do the catching up talks and catching up prep work.

Glad you ordered the Opening Up book. Might also consider Non-Violent communication. Marshall Rosenberg had a lot of them but my fav is Living Non Violent Communication.

Each dyad deserves its own privacy. Not because anything hinky is going on, but because each leg of the triangle needs its own time and space to be in.

Could establish some personal boundaries. If you need some examples?

COMMUNICATION BOUNDARIES

• Yes. You do want to hear about your partner's life, interests, etc.
• No. You don't want to hear Jenny or Jeremy telling you about their relationship problems with the other one. Because you are not an outside ear nor a free therapist. Go tell someone else their problems who is NOT inside the system.

SEX BOUNDARIES

• Yes. Everyone agrees to use safer sex practices.
• No. You do not want Jeremy telling Jenny TMI details about your shared sex life with him.
• No. You do not want Jenny telling Jeremy TMI details about your shared sex life with her.
• No. You do not want to hear TMI details about (Jeremy + Jenny) shared sex life.
• No. Group sex is not a requirement in poly. If you feel like it, fine. But is not a REQUIREMENT.

USING MY HOUSE BOUNDARIES

• What would go here?

What else would you want for personal boundaries? In what other areas of life?

I know that I have some concerns I would really like to talk about, and I would probably feel better afterwards, but I can't seem to get up the guts. (That's not related to this relationship, that's just me in general.)

This chickening out thing you brought up several times. That sounds like personal work YOU need to do. It's nothing to do with them. Only you can do this work.

When you don't speak up for yourself, is that you doing self respecting behavior?

When you don't speak up for yourself, how are people supposed to know what's going on with you? They cannot be mind readers.

Since you seem to do well in writing, how about writing your concerns out over email rather than trying to talk verbally? Could that work for now until you become more confident in your communication skills and conflict resolution skills?

You have every right to take up the space you do in the world. You don't behave like a jerk to people. But neither do you shrink yourself into a box and behave like a jerk to you.

I have tremendous respect for them as people and for their marriage...

Be careful you aren't putting their marriage on some pedestal and call that "respect."

While "adding you to their marriage" might be the easiest way to think about it? It's more like Jenny and Jeremy chose to break up their old 2 people relationship model on purpose in favor of doing a new 3 people triad model. Even if there was no divorce? That's what's happening here. A whole new model.

And in this new model? It is fine to respect their relationship -- (Jenny + Jeremy.) As well as respecting the other dyads in the new model -- (You + Jenny) or (You + Jeremy.) As well as respecting the people as individuals.

DOING respectful behavior towards people --- treating someone in a way that shows you care about their well being --- what's that look like to you? Are all three in agreement on what behaviors are acceptable and demonstrate respect and care? And which ones don't?

And you count as a person too, right? How do you treat yourself in ways that show you care about your own well being?

... I feel like my number one job is not to make any waves that could upset anything.

I wonder why you think this is your number one job. Rather than your number 1 job being "I communicate honestly and openly with my partners." Why is this?

Do you think it is a reasonable expectation for a new relationship model to have some growing pains? Learning mistakes? Wobbles? Or is your expectation to never have any "waves" at all?

What's the big deal about people expressing how they feel honestly? Even if what they feel is upset?

Are you conflict avoidant? Grew up in a volcano kind of household so you developed this as a means of surviving? Walking on eggshells or trying to "pre-manage" people's feelings so they don't blow up at your head?

I have strong feelings about marriage. I would never want to be a reason for disruption of someone else's.

So what jerk behavior are you doing to break up their marriage? Doesn't sound like you are doing any.

If Jeremy and Jenny chose to open their marriage without doing any prep work and this decision comes back to bite them in the butt later? Isn't that on them? And not anything you did? It isn't like you could do their prep work FOR them.

To fix it? They could each catch up on their own prep work, right?

Why are you responsible for the whole world here?

I absolutely feel guest-ish. Jenny has tried to counter that any time I say something like that. She does not see it that way and she doesn't want me to feel that way, but I do.

Is this part of why you don't speak up? Jenny is not a good listener? And when you do try to speak up about where YOU are at this moment, she rushes in with her own feelings? That she doesn't see it that way. That she doesn't want you feel that way. Centering HERSELF rather than centering YOU?

Would you prefer Jenny allow you to experience and feel your own feelings? And allow you to express them honestly? Rather than trying to talk you out of them? Or her invalidating them or dismissing them?

Would you rather have heard something else that centers YOU and your experience? More like "Thank you for telling me. I'm sorry. What can I do to help you feel less guest-ish and more comfortable here? Kind words like "Hang in there... it's hard to be doing new things?" Or actions like a hug?"

Again... I suggest you look into non-violent communication.

I think I feel out of my depth in large part because I have never been a secondary partner? I don't know how to do that and I don't have my footing. Wanting time and attention of course, but not wanting to take too much time and attention away from Jenny.

How about you just call yourself Jeremy's dating partner? Or Jenny's dating partner? Drop the "secondary" thing for now.
Then it becomes just like regular ol' dating used to be right? If you want to arrange a date with someone? You call them up. And ask them out. There. You probably know how to do that.

You could expect Jeremy to manage his own calendar and do his own time management. If you say "Jeremy, I wanted to ask you out to watch movies. Could Friday at 8 PM work for you?" Presumably if he doesn't have free time, he'd just tell you "I can't do that day. How about ____ instead?"

No different than scheduling any other dates.

You are not "taking time and attention away from Jenny." You are asking JEREMY out and asking him for HIS time. If he's an adult who doesn't know how to do his time management and deal with his calendar... I guess that is one of the things he has to learn then.

Presumably, Jenny can ask Jeremy out on dates herself. And he'd figure out his schedule with her at that point in time.
Just like Jenny could ask you out. And you sort your schedule with her at that point in time. Just like Jeremy could ask Jenny out. Or ask you out.

If Jeremy has fallen into the habit of having Jenny act as his social secretary as some wives do? You could ask him to deal with (his dates with you) himself. It's fine if he still wants her to organize his dentist appointments or whatever and she's up for it. But you want to date HIM and not like "going through Jenny" to date him. That's off putting. And stuff you all best sort out now at the beginning. Having and respecting each other's clear personal boundaries.

Some married people become kinda "CoupleBlob" joined at the hip. They forget they are still individual people AND sometimes part of a couple. They have to do the work of detangling.

In this new relationship model? Remember you are all individuals. Sometimes part of a dyad couple. And sometimes a triad. Don't become "TriadBlob" people and subsume yourselves and your individuality to the triad. You are not some kind of PeopleBorg.

And the bad part is that I KNOW, if I raised the handful of issues I have, that they would be understanding, that I would feel better, and the stress would leave. But it is so incredibly hard for me to do that.

Why hard? Who taught you to be this way?

You have the advantage of being friends with them for many years. It's not like you decided to poly date a stranger.

Just because this new facet is new... what changed so much that you cannot be up front and honest with your friends any more?

Of course, these things are not something to sort out in one night. It's more like a series of talks, sorted out over time as you get to know each other better in this new context.

But to avoid the biggest pitfalls? Do start having some talks and speak up for yourself. People can't be mind readers. PARTICIPATE in your relationships rather than hanging back.

It's gonna sink or swim on its own. That's what dating people IS. To see if a thing is gonna pan or not.

So... why are you here if not to participate?

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Greetings OverandOver,
Welcome to our forum. Please feel free to lurk, browse, etc.

There is such a thing as co-primary relationships, I am in such a setup myself. I suspect that you feel secondary to James and Jenny because you do not live with them. I could be wrong of course.

If you are a secondary -- and it sounds like you are -- then you might want to read the "Polyamory for Secondaries" page.

And don't be afraid to speak up for yourself. Feeling like you have a rag stuffed in your mouth because you can't risk disturbing The Marriage, is one of the reasons why you feel like you are a secondary. I wonder if a commitment ceremony between the three of you would help?

Sincerely,
Kevin T., "official greeter"

Notes:

There's a *lot* of good info in Golden Nuggets. Have a look!

Please read through the guidelines if you haven't already.

Note: You needn't read every reply to your posts, especially if someone posts in a disagreeable way. Given the size and scope of the site it's hard not to run into the occasional disagreeable person. Please contact the mods if you do (or if you see any spam), and you can block the person if you want.

If you have any questions about the board itself, please private-message a mod and they'll do their best to help.

Welcome aboard!

 

[OverandOver]

Of course, these things are not something to sort out in one night. It's more like a series of talks, sorted out over time as you get to know each other better in this new context.

But to avoid the biggest pitfalls? Do start having some talks and speak up for yourself. People can't be mind readers. PARTICIPATE in your relationships rather than hanging back.

It's gonna sink or swim on its own. That's what dating people IS. To see if a thing is gonna pan or not.

So... why are you here if not to participate?

Galagirl

Goodness there is a lot of important stuff in there. I almost wish I could just print it out and bring it to dinner. I'm not going to go point by point again, but please know all of it was helpful.

I absolutely agree my inability to ask people for what I need from them is my own personal issue. The more important a relationship is to me, the less able I feel to be forthright about my emotions or needs. It's a trait I've always had, but it didn't bother me that much until now. As for how I expect anyone to know what I need if I don't speak up. I don't. I generally expect to take care of my own needs because I'm terrified to be a burden to anyone. Yes, I know that's an issue. And my late husband was very intuitive and observant and so I felt loved and taken care of without having to do much conversational heavy lifting.

I DID manage to have the conversation I needed to have with James. AND I managed to slip in not only the main thing I wanted to communicate, but two side issues also, both of which it did seem had occured to him as well. AND I manged to fairly easily (without a "conversation") lay down a small boundary with Jenny. I am actually a very good communicator once I can get the first couple sentences out. I am a hot mess until I manage that.

I have two things I kind of want to raise to them both at large. If I can't manage it the next time we're all together sans kids, then I'll put it in an email, even if we would finish the conversation in person.

I can not thank you enough for the imagery of essentially unmaking and remaking a marriage. It made me think of crochet actually. I felt like they were a finished work and it was like trying to weave myself in around the structure that was already there in a way that added to it but didn't detract. But they're not a finished work - they have simply picked up a third strand and kept going. I can be a part of the structure too. I know it sounds dumb, but for some reason that really helps me a lot. I was very concerned about the idea of messing up what they had.

Funny what you said about secretary wives, yes, we would both qualify and it is a term I had actually used for myself in the past. You're right. Even if he needs to clear his schedule with Jenny to make sure he has time for something, that's exactly how it needs to work as opposed to her trying to schedule time for us. I've already noticed that a bit and it is offputting in a small but noticeable way. I don't think it will be a problem to fix.

As to the triadblob, one of the things I really want to make clear to them is that for me this needs to be Me+Jenny and Me+James and sometimes Me+Jenny+James. Because sometimes I feel like one or both of them feel this is Me+JennyandJames, possibly just out of habit of being married for so long. And that won't work for me. I also don't think that will be a problem, even if they hadn't thought of it that way. It may just take some occasional reminders. Old habits die hard.

I appreciate all the time you have taken in offering me such insightful advice and thoughts. I am in a much better place today than I was Monday night when I wrote my intro post. I was feeling pretty low and concerned and overwhelmed.

 

[OverandOver]

Greetings OverandOver,
Welcome to our forum. Please feel free to lurk, browse, etc.

There is such a thing as co-primary relationships, I am in such a setup myself. I suspect that you feel secondary to James and Jenny because you do not live with them. I could be wrong of course.

If you are a secondary -- and it sounds like you are -- then you might want to read the "Polyamory for Secondaries" page.

And don't be afraid to speak up for yourself. Feeling like you have a rag stuffed in your mouth because you can't risk disturbing The Marriage, is one of the reasons why you feel like you are a secondary. I wonder if a commitment ceremony between the three of you would help?

Sincerely,
Kevin T., "official greeter"

Notes:

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Welcome aboard!

I actually would like to clarify with them whether they intend for this to be a relationship where I am secondary to both, or a co-primary. Because I get the impression that they do not want me to feel secondary actually, but I just don't see how that works, yes, mostly because we do not live togther (or in "just popping in" distance like we used to.) And I'm OK with that, even if I do see it being something that changes in the future, if this is still working for everyone.

Thanks for the welcome and the notes, I'm old hat at message boards and even used to moderate a few back in the day.

 

[GalaGirl]

Glad it was helpful.

I am actually a very good communicator once I can get the first couple sentences out. I am a hot mess until I manage that.

Maybe this is something to remember then? That you ARE a good communicator.

And that you DID start having some talks. So kudos! You are starting to PARTICIPATE. You are on your way to letting the hot mess thing go and taking up your new seat at this triad table.

I absolutely agree my inability to ask people for what I need from them is my own personal issue. The more important a relationship is to me, the less able I feel to be forthright about my emotions or needs. It's a trait I've always had, but it didn't bother me that much until now. As for how I expect anyone to know what I need if I don't speak up. I don't. I generally expect to take care of my own needs because I'm terrified to be a burden to anyone. Yes, I know that's an issue. And my late husband was very intuitive and observant and so I felt loved and taken care of without having to do much conversational heavy lifting.

Poly has a way of shining a light on things. Sounds like your late husband would "carry" you in this area so you didn't really have to work to change it. He just adapted himself around it and was good at guessing. You didn't have to actually articulate. And he's not here to do that.

And when a single widow? It wasn't an issue. It was just you. Nobody to ask or tell things to because you WERE meeting all your needs yourself.

Here comes this polyship thing... and now it rears up as a still unsorted sore spot that might get in the way or affect how you get on in this new relationship model. So it is on you to get around to addressing it and not like sweeping it under the rug.

Did it ever occur to you that by NOT being up front and honest you might become a bit of a communication burden on someone? Who then has to be guessing what's going on with you because you won't just say it plain? Or you rely on "hinting" to get a message across?

I've felt that way in some relationships. I'd sometimes hear that "I don't want to be a bother/burden." But isn't it on me? Like if they show me their imaginary clipboard? I can choose to sign up or not? Where is burden? Why would I ask if I didn't care to know? I no longer do that kind of emotional labor -- having to "pull things out of people." It's a drag. Not being mean... just giving another perspective on that.

I can not thank you enough for the imagery of essentially unmaking and remaking a marriage. It made me think of crochet actually.

Glad it helped. And yes, another thread can be added to the "crochet structure."

Even if he needs to clear his schedule with Jenny to make sure he has time for something, that's exactly how it needs to work as opposed to her trying to schedule time for us.

Yup. Jenny does not arrange his dates for him. If she tries? BOTH you and Jeremy could kindly and firmly say "No, thank you. In this area, we sort that ourselves."

If you ask him out? I think it's fine for Jeremy to say "Can I get back to you?" And then he sorts out his home stuff. Chores being done, kid care planned for, etc. He can't just take off and dump the home stuff on Jenny from the sky. Or her to him. That wouldn't be right.

But if he says stuff like "Jenny won't let me" or "I can't because Jenny says..." that's off putting. Where something like "I can't go. I have other obligations" or "I'm sorry. I made a prior commitment" is fine. That is him OWNING his choices.

The other way? Passing the buck on to the partner? It would be like "mommifying" Jenny. When she isn't his mommy. It would be off putting the other way around if he talks to Jenny like "OverandOver says I can't..." Sloppy hinge behavior. Be careful none of you do that. Any "pass the buck" and not taking personal responsibility. Or acting like the other partner is the boss or parent.

As to the triadblob, one of the things I really want to make clear to them is that for me this needs to be Me+Jenny and Me+James and Jenny+James and sometimes Me+Jenny+James. Because sometimes I feel like one or both of them feel this is Me+JennyandJames, possibly just out of habit of being married for so long. And that won't work for me. I also don't think that will be a problem, even if they hadn't thought of it that way. It may just take some occasional reminders. Old habits die hard.

I took the liberty of adding the missing dyad in blue. And sometimes there's also JustOverandOver, JustJenny, JustJeremy as individuals. You each could have time alone or to spend with other friends and family.

But yes. Speak up. Sometimes when the relationship model changes? A new person is in the grouping? Again... poly has a way of shining a light on a lot of things. Things that might have worked ok in a 2 people thing or could let slide more in a 2 people thing? Maybe not so much in a 3 people thing.

You can say "Hey, this isn't working for me." That is not disrespecting them in the (JennyandJeremy) layer of things. They can do what they want in that area. But in areas where YOU appear? You have a voice in what's going in in

• JustYou
• You+Jenny
• You+Jeremy
• You+Jenny+Jeremy

layers. I think the overall health of a larger polyship is made up of the health inside the little combos within. So tend to your fair share of them, and they can deal with the ones you aren't involved in. (JustJenny, JustJeremy, JennyandJeremy).

I appreciate all the time you have taken in offering me such insightful advice and thoughts. I am in a much better place today than I was Monday night when I wrote my intro post. I was feeling pretty low and concerned and overwhelmed.

Glad you feel better. It's ok to be new and learning. Just take it slow and do communicate with your partners.

GL!
Galagirl