Advice or experience with this?

[MellowMel]

I (34f) am in a previously closed triad with my partner of 13 years (Jesse 34 nb/amab) and our girlfriend of 9 years (Jo 29f). We started pretty quickly, but we had sat down and agreed that our triad would be closed (me and Jesse offered to be open but Jo expressed how she wanted to be closed) however, I discovered a year and a half into our relationship both Jo and Jesse were hiding various moments of Jesse being unfaithful. She never admitted to having sex with another person, but we did find her talking to other people (exes) in sexual manner and going on dates with "friends" that blurred the lines of what is a romantic and plationic date. What hurt the most was kind of living life feeling like the vibes were off when I came home to them and not knowing why for years. I felt betrayed by them both, but as a people pleaser i focused so much on how the infidelity hurt Jesse and how Jo had to deal with rebuilding their relationship through Jesse's insecurities (they were cheated on pretty badly in the past, even had a child that turned out wasnt theirs) and I felt like for years mine and Jo's relationship had been on the back burner. I think I was able to help them get to a point where there werent accusations and arguments and defensiveness, where they could communicate, pause and come back.

And now they are in such a good position...but I feel empty. Like I look at how even when their relationship was at its most strained, they still were passionately intimate. I forgave her for the betrayal, never raised my voice or accused her of cheating or spoke up about my insecurities, i defended her even. Yet we have little intimacy. It feels like only on certain occasions did she want to be with me, and it was the three of us. She recently came out to me as stone bisexual...as in she doesnt like receiving pleasure from women, only giving. This is after years of not knowing why or what i was doing wrong and asking and begging her to just tell me if she's not interested in me.

But this explanation doesn't explain the lack of romance, how she doesnt hug me or kiss me or even say im beautiful when i tell her all the time and try to do these things. I think i realized after so many years that i was the one putting so much effort that i woke up one day and said I'll stop trying and see if she is putting forth the effort. And i noticed she never even noticed i stopped. I dont know. She proposed to us before the stone bisexual comment, and i literally had to break off my engagement because i saw no change in her and felt she just wanted a wedding not a marriage.

She says she wants to be with me she wants me as a wife and she loves me, but thats only in heavy moments like this. But now she says since i called off the engagement she doesnt feel like shed want to even marry me again, even if I propose. I dont get it?

 

[GalaGirl]

I don't know if this helps you any.

I think this could have been an open triad, or an open poly V, from the start, and you just never dated Jo.

Jesse and I offered to be open, but Jo expressed how she wanted to be closed.

If Jo didn't want to exercise the option, she didn't HAVE to. You two weren't going to force her. But the option to date other people/share sex with other people could have still been there for all of you. You could have skipped a whole bunch of this other stuff that happened later had nobody promised to be "closed."

I discovered a year and a half into our relationship that both Jo and Jesse were hiding various moments of Jesse being unfaithful.

If this is not a dealbreaker for you, do you have a clear idea of what the dealbreakers ARE for you, just so you know, going forward? You get to decide what you will and will not put up with in a relationship.

Did you ever heal from Jo's original betrayal from cheating on the closed agreements and hiding it, and then the additional betrayal of Jesse helping Jo to keep it secret?

I could be wrong, but it kind of sounds like you ignored all that and shoved it under the rug in service to helping them fix their dyad.

I think i realized after so many years that I was the one putting forth so much effort. I woke up one day and said I'll stop trying and see if she is putting forth the effort.

You WERE putting in too much effort, both in the (you + Jo) dyad and in the (Jesse + Jo) dyad, by acting like their free couple's counselor.

You are RIGHT to stop doing so much. You might consider working on your people-pleaser thing and not doing that anymore.

She says she wants to be with me. She wants me as a wife and she loves me, but thats only in heavy moments like this. But now she says since i called off the engagement, she doesn't feel like she'd want to even marry me again, even if I propose. I don't get it.

Gently... you don't HAVE to get it. Jo's thinking is Jo's thinking, not yours.

If this is not someone you want to be married to, you were RIGHT to break off the engagement. It was a successful engagement period. You thought long and hard about long-term compatibility and decided, "No, we are not compatible for marriage." It's not the "big win" that leads to wedding planning, but it's still a "win" and spares you from future grief, like a marriage followed quickly by a divorce and all the costs of that.

You could decide you don't want to be involved with her anymore and break up, not just end the engagement, but break up totally. You could call this a poly V instead. Jesse dates you. Jesse dates Jo. That's it. You and Jo no longer date each other.

After a time, to heal from the break up with Jo, you could move on to poly date other people if you feel like it. Do less work, have more fun, do not be bogged down anymore. Leave the (Jesse + Jo) dyad as their responsibility to manage on their own. I think that would be better for your own long-term well-being. Aspire to healthy relationships where the load is shared more fairly, it's not like you are doing everything.

https://rhntc.org/sites/default/files/resources/rhntc_hlthy_rlshp_wheel_spectrum_10-13-2022.pdf

Galagirl

 

[MellowMel]

Thank you for the reply, i think since weve been nesting partners for 7 years and even moved across the country together, its so hard to think of what a nesting V partnership would look like, but I feel like now I have guilt that I no longer want this, when this poly relationship was all I ever wanted. I was the one to first come out so for me to sever it I guess I'm putting a lot of the blame on myself. But its not even the intimacy, i feel unappreciated with the unbalanced finances and how little effort she puts into our home but more into whatever new hobby or business idea she has. I think I would be able to see some sort of worth if i wasnt unsatisfied in our financial, emotional, physical, and responsibilities. Thanks again

I don't know if this helps you any.

I think this could have been open triad from the start.

Or an open Poly V and you just don't date Jo from the start.



And if Jo didn't want to exercise the option, she didn't HAVE to. You two weren't going to force her. But the option to date other people/share sex with other people could have still been there for all of you. Could have skipped a whole bunch of this other stuff that happened later had nobody promised "closed."


If this is not a dealbreaker to you... do you have a clear idea of what ARE the dealbreakers for you? Just so you know going forward? You get to decide what you will and will not put up with in a relationship.

Did you ever heal from this? Jo's original betrayal from cheating on the closed agreements and hiding it?

And then the additional betrayal of Jesse helping Jo keep it secret?

I could be wrong but it kind of sounds like you ignored all that and shoved it under the rug in service to helping them fix their dyad?



You WERE putting in too much effort. Both in the (you + Jo) dyad and in the (Jesse + Jo) dyad acting like their free couple counselor.

You are RIGHT to stop doing so much. Might consider working on your people pleaser thing and not doing that any more.



Gently... you don't HAVE to get it. Jo's thinking is Jo's thinking, not yours.

If this is no someone you want to be married to, you were RIGHT to break off the engagement. It was a successful engagement period. You thought long and hard about long term compatibility and decide "No, not compatible for marriage." It's not the "big win" that leads to weddding planning, but it's still a "win" and spares you from future grief like marriage followed quickly by divorce and all the costs of that.

You could decide you don't want to be involved with her any more and break up. Not just end the engagement but break up totally. Could call this a poly V instead. Jesse dates you. Jesse dates Jo. That's it. You and Jo no longer date each other.

And after a time to heal from the break up with Jo? You could move on to poly date other people if you feel like it. Do less work, have more fun, not be bogged down any more. Leave the (Jesse + Jo) as their responsibility to manage on their own.

I think that would be better for your own long term well being. Aspire to healthy relationships where the load is shared more fairly. And not like you doing everything.

https://rhntc.org/sites/default/files/resources/rhntc_hlthy_rlshp_wheel_spectrum_10-13-2022.pdf

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hello MellowMel,

Re: "I discovered a year and a half into our relationship both Jo and Jesse were hiding various moments of Jesse being unfaithful" ... do you actually mean "moments of Jo being unfaithful?" You went on to use female pronouns for the person who was doing the cheating, and Jesse is non-binary so I don't know what pronouns Jesse prefers. I get the impression Jo was the one who did the actual cheating, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm sorry Jo has been treating you so badly these past few years, and it sounds like Jesse hasn't treated you great either. I think you have to figure out whether you still want to be with Jo (and/or Jesse), I know the poly was your idea originally, but when you originally had that idea, I doubt you expected to be treated so badly. It is okay to end the poly if it is hurting you. At the very least the conditions of the poly should change.

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

 

[GalaGirl]

i think since weve been nesting partners for 7 years and even moved across the country together, its so hard to think of what a nesting V partnership would look like,

Sure. It's new stuff to think about. It takes time to digest and mull over.

It could even be a poly V where you do NOT nest together.

I feel like now I have guilt that I no longer want this, when this poly relationship was all I ever wanted.

It may be you still want polyamory, just not with THIS group of people.

People change. Or people are initially attractive and initially a match, but aren't compatible in the long run. That happens in any kind of dating.

I was the one to first come out so for me to sever it I guess I'm putting a lot of the blame on myself.

I think you are putting a lot on yourself that doesn't actually need to be there. Maybe it's the people-pleaser thing peeping out.

Like, even as teens learning to date... SOMEONE has to be the first date. It doesn't mean it's going to pan out forever, right? It will be what it is. Same thing in other dating later in life. You gave this a shot. It didn't pan out. Polyamory doesn't mean "never break up."

But its not even the intimacy, i feel unappreciated with the unbalanced finances and how little effort she puts into our home but more into whatever new hobby or business idea she has.

So maybe it's time to end it, stop being lovers with her, just be done with dating. And then, if she's not a very good roomie, and mostly coasts on you and Jesse doing everything? Jesse isn't going to pick up the slack in the house chores or whatever for their live-in partner? You might have to ask for changes in roomie agreements/chore division/how bills get paid here in the shared household. Or stop living with her/them, so you don't have to care how things get done in that household. You have your own household.

It sounds like a recent break-up. Take your time thinking things out and healing. But do make healthy changes for yourself so you can be ok. No more overdoing things for people. You have to take care of YOU too.

In fact, put your own oxygen mask on FIRST and take care of yourself FIRST. Self care is NOT optional. It is not "selfish." It is necessary. Doing self neglect in service to other people is not a good thing. Take care of your basics first, and then help others with their reasonable and rational requests.

• Nobody requested anything? You don't do anything.
• People requested unreasonable or irrational things? Hard pass. Do not even consider.
• People make a reasonable and rational request? You consider if you have the bandwidth to help.
  • And if you do, you help them.
  • If you don't have the bandwidth, tell them you can't do that.
  • Or you might renegotiate. Could offer to do something else instead that you CAN fit in. Like, if they ask you to help make spaghetti for dinner, but you don't cook? You could offer to pick up a frozen lasagna at the grocery and make that from box directions. Is that close enough and acceptable to them?

Keep things simpler on you.

Galagirl

 

[MellowMel]

Hello MellowMel,

Re: "I discovered a year and a half into our relationship both Jo and Jesse were hiding various moments of Jesse being unfaithful" ... do you actually mean "moments of Jo being unfaithful?" You went on to use female pronouns for the person who was doing the cheating, and Jesse is non-binary so I don't know what pronouns Jesse prefers. I get the impression Jo was the one who did the actual cheating, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm sorry Jo has been treating you so badly these past few years, and it sounds like Jesse hasn't treated you great either. I think you have to figure out whether you still want to be with Jo (and/or Jesse), I know the poly was your idea originally, but when you originally had that idea, I doubt you expected to be treated so badly. It is okay to end the poly if it is hurting you. At the very least the conditions of the poly should change.

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

Hi. Thank you for checking. Jesse uses he/they/she pronouns, and Jo uses she.

Jo did the infidelity, and while it wasn't full-blown sex infidelity, it was both sexual and emotional betrayal. This was years ago and we've gotten to a point of forgiveness with that. But to be honest, I was blindsided, because i found out right after I said I loved her. I didnt know what to do because, yes, she cheated, but the incidents happened a year before i knew. It would've been a dealbreaker for me if i had known, and i kind of grappled with those feelings of not necessarily regret, but a festering frustration that just turned into resentment, because she never validated my insecurities by giving me that physical touch and words of affirmation I needed, despite me trying to give her that.

As for Jesse, we did some long talking and honesty and trust rebuilding in our relationship all those years ago. We really put in the work and it made me feel reassured and safe. And even today, if I bring up that I'm feeling a way about this thing that happened years ago, Jesse doesn't tell me to get over it, or get defensive or frustrated like Jo might. They listen and reassure me. I think our conflict resolution has gotten better for it, and that's why I focus so much more on fixing the relationship I have with Jo.

I told her I wanted to just stop expecting more from her. I think it would be less pressure and easier for us to be metamours that are platonic friends, and make this a V triad. I think she was completely oblivious to my emotional state, because she said this was happening so suddenly, and that she thought that me making us that level is me breaking up with her.

I don't see how me staying as the same label (partner, girlfriend, whatever) and not getting affection, going months to years without sex, let alone mentioning you find me attractive, and kisses only when we say goodbye, where I'd get more passion from a mannequin... I feel like I'm being gaslit, but she genuinely processes this way. She wants someone (a woman) who is friends on a platonic level that every once in a while she can have sex with, but wants to call me her girlfriend of 10 years. That's a friend with benefits, and not what she described and not what I agreed to. She can't or won't tell me when her desires for our dynamic changed. Ultimately, I feel like she wasn't attracted to me, didn't feel like our relationship was deserving of time and effort, and she's too full of herself, or oblivious, or a downright liar by not telling me so for years, and I don't know what's worse.

Thank you for your time and wise words.

 

[Magdlyn]

{i am focusing on] fixing the relationship with Jo.

I told her I wanted to just stop expecting more from her. I think it would be less pressure and easier for us to be metamours that are platonic friends, and make this a V triad.

A V is a V and a triad is a triad. The definitions are different. If you and Jo were having sex and being romantic, it would be a triad. But you're not. So it's a V.

I think she was completely oblivious to my emotional state, because she said this was happening so suddenly, and that she thought that me making us that level is me breaking up with her.

I don't see how me staying as the same label (partner, girlfriend, whatever) and not getting affection, going months to years without sex, let alone mentioning you find me attractive, and kisses only when we say goodbye, where I'd get more passion from a mannequin... I feel like I'm being gaslit, but she genuinely processes this way. She wants someone (a woman) who is friends on a platonic level that every once in a while she can have sex with, but wants to call me her girlfriend of 10 years. That's a friend with benefits, and not what she described and not what I agreed to. She can't or won't tell me when her desires for our dynamic changed. Ultimately, I feel like she wasn't attracted to me, didn't feel like our relationship was deserving of time and effort, and she's too full of herself, or oblivious, or a downright liar by not telling me so for years, and I don't know what's worse.

She can think and feel what she wants. She can want to call you girlfriend, but ignore you physically and emotionally. Fine. She can want to have sex with you every once in a blue moon. She can want things.

But it takes two to tango. You get to decide that you are downscaling her from gf or romantic partner to platonic friend. I am not sure if you're sharing a bed. I'd recommend, if you are, to move out into your own space. She can then whine about that if she wants. Fine. That's her emotion to handle. You don't have to listen to the whining. Just hang up, or leave the room, or leave the house for a while if necessary.

Whatever label SHE wants doesn't matter. She can think you're in a triad and that you're her girlfriend. That's her business.

You can think of her as you wish, a friend, a metamour, the other arm of the poly V.

And it IS a break-up to tell her you're done with expecting sex or romance or deep emotional connection from her. Fine. So what? Labels don't matter. The fact is, you're not actually romantic partners, and haven't been for a while, it seems.

 

[GalaGirl]

And even today, if I bring up that I'm feeling a way about this thing that happened years ago, Jesse doesn't tell me to get over it, or get defensive or frustrated like Jo might. They listen and reassure me. I think our conflict resolution has gotten better for it, and that's why I focus so much more on fixing the relationship I have with Jo.

That doesn't make sense. Because the (you + Jesse) dyad was able to repair, you focus lots on fixing the (you + Jo) dyad? The reason it worked in the (you + Jesse) repair is because both of you wanted to fix it and wanted to be present. Jo's checked out.

I think you could change your mind about fixing anything with Jo. Just let go without fixing anything.

I feel like I'm being gaslit, but she genuinely processes this way. She wants someone (a woman) who is friends on a platonic level that every once in a while she can have sex with, but wants to call me her girlfriend of 10 years. That's a friend with benefits, and not what she described and not what I agreed to. She can't or won't tell me when her desires for our dynamic changed. Ultimately, I feel like she wasn't attracted to me, didn't feel like our relationship was deserving of time and effort, and she's too full of herself, or oblivious, or a downright liar by not telling me so for years, and I don't know what's worse.

I don't know if this helps you any or validates your decision to end things with Jo. But you seem to see clearly enough. You ARE being gaslit. And she wants to call you "GF of 10 years" when really at best it would be a meh FWB. And you didn't like it then and aren't into that now.

You know how some people say "You don't get a wife at GF prices?" Well, you don't get GF at blah FWB prices either.

Best to end it. And if Jo wants to lie to HERSELF and gaslight herself calling it whatever? You don't have to care.

You are the ex.

I told her I wanted to just stop expecting more from her.

You can do that without her input or permission. You are the one who manages your expectations. If you want to expect NOTHING from her now? You can do that.

I think she was completely oblivious to my emotional state, because she said this was happening so suddenly, and that she thought that me making us that level is me breaking up with her.

It doesn't sound sudden. It's been brewing a long time.

And it IS a break up. You don't want to be in a triad any more.

You don't have to JADE your decisions. (Justify, argue, defend, explain.)

You can just make them. If you are done with this? Be done.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hi MellowMel,

Thanks for the clarifications. I just want to say that I do not approve of the way Jo has been handling things. I do not approve of the way she processes. You are in the right to seal off the formerly romantic/sexual part of your relationship with her. She doesn't deserve to call you a girlfriend, especially when she doesn't really want a girlfriend anyway. She just wants a friend-with-rare-benefits that she can call girlfriend.

Sympathy and regards,
Kevin T.

 

[Bobbi]

But to be honest, I was blindsided, because i found out right after I said I loved her. I didnt know what to do because, yes, she cheated, but the incidents happened a year before i knew. It would've been a dealbreaker for me if i had known,

So it would have been a dealbreaker if she didn't lie about it and told you right away, but adding lying to you for over a year made it okay? I'm really not understanding the logic here.

I'm not seeing where SHE worked on regaining YOUR trust. She seemed to do all the work with Jesse, and started right away by telling Jesse about it and being honest.

This looks to me like Jo and Jesse are in a relationship, and you are just along for the ride. Jo just isn't into you. Maybe she thought she couldn't date Jesse without dating you. Maybe she thought a triad was the only option. So she played nice with you to satisfy that, but she really isn't into you. This behavior fits in EVERYTHING you've said about how she treats you.

I'd work on ending the relationship with her. Convert it into a V and talk to YOUR partner Jesse about you dating others. Go find yourself a partner that will love you the way you deserve to be loved.

festering frustration that just turned into resentment, because she never validated my insecurities by giving me that physical touch and words of affirmation I needed, despite me trying to give her that.

Actions speak louder than words. Her actions are clear.

that's why I focus so much more on fixing the relationship I have with Jo.

But YOU cannot fix it if SHE isn't interested. It's clear she is not. Stop beating a dead horse. Just because that worked in one relationship doesn't mean it will work in another. I'm all for trying, but give it a strong deadline for you to see actions that support YOU putting in the effort when she isn't.

I told her I wanted to just stop expecting more from her. I think it would be less pressure and easier for us to be metamours that are platonic friends, and make this a V triad. I think she was completely oblivious to my emotional state, because she said this was happening so suddenly, and that she thought that me making us that level is me breaking up with her.

It wasn't sudden. She just didn't care enough to notice, then wants to blame everything on you to make you feel guilty. And yes, going parallel is you breaking up with her. But it's not the end of your relationship, it's just a shift into a different kind. She may be living a poly relationship, but she is still thinking in mono ways...

She wants someone (a woman) who is friends on a platonic level that every once in a while she can have sex with, but wants to call me her girlfriend of 10 years. That's a friend with benefits, and not what she described, and not what I agreed to. She can't or won't tell me when her desires for our dynamic changed. Ultimately, I feel like she wasn't attracted to me, didn't feel like our relationship was deserving of time and effort, and she's too full of herself, or oblivious, or a downright liar by not telling me so for years, and I don't know what's worse.

Yes. You got it. Now go get your life back, and be in a happy V and date if you wish. You don't need that anymore.

 

[MellowMel]

So it would have been a dealbreaker if she didn't lie about it and told you right away, but adding lying to you for over a year made it okay? I'm really not understanding the logic here.

I'm not seeing where SHE worked on regaining YOUR trust. She seemed to do all the work with Jesse, and started right away by telling Jesse about it and being honest.

This looks to me like Jo and Jesse are in a relationship, and you are just along for the ride. Jo just isn't into you. Maybe she thought she couldn't date Jesse without dating you. Maybe she thought a triad was the only option. So she played nice with you to satisfy that, but she really isn't into you. This behavior fits in EVERYTHING you've said about how she treats you.

I'd work on ending the relationship with her. Convert it into a V and talk to YOUR partner Jesse about you dating others. Go find yourself a partner that will love you the way you deserve to be loved.

Actions speak louder than words. Her actions are clear.

But YOU cannot fix it if SHE isn't interested. It's clear she is not. Stop beating a dead horse. Just because that worked in one relationship doesn't mean it will work in another. I'm all for trying but give it a strong deadline for you to see actions that support YOU putting in the effort when she isn't.

It wasn't sudden. She just didn't care enough to notice then wants to blame everything in you to make you feel guilty. And yes, parallel is you breaking up with her but it's not the end of your relationship, it's just a shift into a different kind. She may be living a poly relationship but she is still thinking in mono ways...

Yes. You got it. Now go get your life back and be in a happy V and date if you wish. You don't need that any more.

Honestly i feel stupid for not being more logical about the hiding and lying. Again, I think it was me, the people pleaser (from a long line of people pleasers), and I foolishly held on because they both wanted it to work and that reassured me that we could fix it.

Something that I've been working hard on changing for the past year is how much I sacrifice my happiness for other's comfort, and it's a big reason why I finally stood up for myself about just ending this charade. Because I forgave Jo and defended her at times, I felt as though she didn't think she needed to work on rebuilding trust with me in particular. I was accommodating to a fault. I do see the role I play in this mess, and how Jesse did make it all about them and how they felt.

But i think it's not even the rebuilding of trust that bothers me, it's the lack of building anything. I just don't know what is a valid excuse. It's feeling like I'm only put on show as an accessory. And I feel foolish at how guilty i felt before "breaking up" because I no longer was attracted to her, and that I resented her, and because I would fantasize about a "real girlfriend" who I could talk to and cuddle and feel and give love.

What pisses me off is how much I reiterated that Jesse and I aren't a package deal and how i felt like she was lying to me and she still chose to lie. And it goes against my worst fears of being with someone who is lying only to date my partner. Like, if you only wanted to be with Jesse and said so in beginning, that's fine, but the lying and gaslighting me to the point where i just think so little of myself is fucked up.

 

[Magdlyn]

I hear that you feel foolish and guilty and like you didn't take care of yourself. But it's good to have that clarity now.

We all do the best we can with the knowledge and tools we have. As we learn more relationship skills, we do better. We learn to respect ourselves, to have high standards, to look for red flags and take action, knowing we deserve better. This isn't comfortable, but it pays off hugely in the big picture.

Plus, doing poly can be very confusing because it's bascially new in our culture. Monogamy is the norm. So we can feel like we're making it up as we go along. That's why we needs groups like this, with experienced polyamorists giving feedback, and we need to read resources like the ones listed at the top of this page.

https://polyamory.com/threads/most-commonly-cited-advice-articles-master-thread.155304/

 

[GalaGirl]

What pisses me off is how much I reiterated that Jesse and I aren't a package deal and how i felt like she was lying to me and she still chose to lie. And it goes against my worst fears of being with someone who is lying only to date my partner.

After this experience? You can choose to never date someone your partner dates. Like even if they asked you out? You would politely decline. And that solves the fear. You do not have to worry about someone dating you just to gain access to your partner. You made it a non issue.

 Galagirl