Am I in the wrong? TRIGGER WARNING

dingedheart

Well-known member
Wouldn't the first manifestation of that destructive dynamic be the invasion of privacy? Once you open that door how far does it go?
Maybe if that was first event or action. However generally speaking people with solid boundaries and established trust arent looking to invade their spouses privacy until something feels way off. In this thread what do you see as an invasion of privacy ? or are you speaking to my comment of sharing / over sharing to be believed by your spouse ?
 

Inaniel

Active member
Maybe if that was first event or action. However generally speaking people with solid boundaries and established trust arent looking to invade their spouses privacy until something feels way off. In this thread what do you see as an invasion of privacy ? or are you speaking to my comment of sharing / over sharing to be believed by your spouse ?

I was referring to your point about the disclosure of text messages.
 

MeeraReed

Active member
I thought it sounded like moral grandstanding. I believe this and then add the passive aggressive comment not being cunning enough to hack long term nefarious plans Implying those who see humans as sometimes flawed are cooking up long term nefarious plans.

i believe people are basically good and doing their best. Stand alone sentence.

VS ….I believe people are basically good and doing the best because I believe in Jesus and go to church twice a day and don’t hang out in bars or have sex with animals

dingedheart, I don't understand how you read any of that into Evie's comment.

All she said is that she assumes people are basically good because she herself isn't cooking up nefarious plans, so she assumes other people aren't being devious either.

And I think she was referring to the wife...that Evie is approaching the OP's problem from the perspective that the wife is probably not being nefarious because most people usually aren't nefarious.

Like, most people--including the wife in a poly couple where the husband is struggling!--are more likely to be miscommunicating or trying not to hurt their husband than to be deliberately plotting to betray him with a surprise date.

Which, it sounds like the OP agrees with and has reached a better place with his partner, so we can probably drop this now.
 

Millhuas

Member
dingedheart, I don't understand how you read any of that into Evie's comment.

All she said is that she assumes people are basically good because she herself isn't cooking up nefarious plans, so she assumes other people aren't being devious either.

And I think she was referring to the wife...that Evie is approaching the OP's problem from the perspective that the wife is probably not being nefarious because most people usually aren't nefarious.

Like, most people--including the wife in a poly couple where the husband is struggling!--are more likely to be miscommunicating or trying not to hurt their husband than to be deliberately plotting to betray him with a surprise date.

Which, it sounds like the OP agrees with and has reached a better place with his partner, so we can probably drop this now.
Well, there are more parts at play in terms of our history. I flat out had a mental and emotional breakdown crying for almost 20 hrs because I felt and still feel that she and have disproportionate invest in quality time with each other. This is not to say I am without fault nor that she has any form of malfeasance withing regard to what has caused me pain and distrust. Though intent do not erode responsibility for action, conflict has at least two sources, and one party cannot continue to shoulder the blame or be blamed for their emotions. My wife and I have a lot of problems to work through together. We normally have a very succinct line of communication, it felt off I asked, she answered, then informed when the terms changed. She gathered from our conversation that I wanted to open it but didn't actually confirm, I did not act upon the bells in my head to ask further and clearly didn't drive a clear point that I was not ready to re-open at that time.

My statement to the question, "What do you feel about our relationship and being open?" was as follows: "I feel that when we open up again, we should no longer open and close we shouldn't put Veto Power on the table. We need to be built off of trust if we are going to be open."

I can see where she gathered the understanding but she assumed I wanted it open without confirming, I assumed it was staying closed till someone says, "Should we open back up?"

Both parties are at fault and while I am ready to accept my part she is currently at work and whether she accepts her part is on tonight's wall of discussion.


One aside, thank you all for being so generous with advice on the matter. I haven't followed any comments advice entirely on it's own but have taken collective advice from you all. Theirs merit in what everyone has offered me.
 

Evie

Kaitiaki
Staff member
I'm beginning to pity her date. He's going to be navigating a minefield while you two sort out how to love each other in ways you can recognise again.

It looks like there's some love languages work going on, you've mentioned quality time as what you need. I hope she can agree to putting aside time for uninterrupted dates with you. What does she need from you?
 

Millhuas

Member
I'm beginning to pity her date. He's going to be navigating a minefield while you two sort out how to love each other in ways you can recognise again.

It looks like there's some love languages work going on, you've mentioned quality time as what you need. I hope she can agree to putting aside time for uninterrupted dates with you. What does she need from you?
Tommy is good people. I have been suffer a lot due to COVID-19. I fell into a deep depression and recognize that I have been just as unavailable and haven't considered her side of events leading.

We both want the same thing, better communication and better availability. And we both have recognized we have both equally contributed. I have spent the last 72 hrs surrounded by loved one who have taken no sides and helped me with an unbiased approach. I even was able to come to mom after nearly 20 years not knowing why I don't belong!!!
 

Magdlyn

Moderator
Staff member
I think one of the most difficult things a poly couple can do is make the "simple" rule that the spouses have to let each other know ahead of time that a particular hangout will be a date.

This is a very common rule, but it often doesn't work.

On the surface, the rule sounds simple and reasonable. Surely my partner can let me know ahead of time that he's going on a date? Surely it's just common courtesy to communicate that? Won't I feel surprised and hurt and betrayed to find out after the fact that he went on a date? Why not just tell me ahead of time?

Well, because...dating just doesn't work like that. When I was single, dating-related stuff could be unpredictable and spontaneous. A hangout with a friend turns into a flirty sexy evening. Or a planned hangout shifts into a date as we start flirting over IM leading up to the event. Or someone invites me to dinner, and I'm not sure if it's a date or not a date. Or, someone I like invites me to what I think is a date, but it's a platonic hangout. This is all just a normal part of meeting people and being open to dating new people.

I think sometimes married couples opening their relationship forget what it was like to be single. Or, maybe didn't date much when they were single. Or, one partner moves much slower / is much less spontaneous than the other partner and feels distressed by the spontaneous partner not "communicating" appropriately ahead of time.

Another common situation that I see play out a lot on these forums: one partner is struggling more with the idea of poly and needs more time to process poly-related information. Maybe info about dates and other partners is upsetting to hear about. So, the non-struggling partner tries to be vague about communications in an effort to avoid hurting their partner, or attempts to give out information slowly over time instead of all at once.

The struggling partner then feels like they can't trust their partner. It is sad for everyone involved.

OP, it sounds like you've gotten some good advice here and that things are going better now.
I agree with you, despite it seeming like I didn't! That's a good point. Sometimes we can't predict how a date will go. Another example is, we might just go out to a brew pub or something with a group of friends, and end up chatting with one of them, or even someone brand new we meet, and it going into flirting territory, or maybe even a hookup.

I think some couples negotiating poly have agreements where, if you can't predict something being a date, or actually going into having-sex territory, this should be shared the next time you see your "primary" or any other partner-- e.g., "I've developed feelings for my friend X. We flirted heavily the other night," or, "I met a new guy at the pub the other night. We hit if off great and we actually hooked up. I saw his recent sex lab results (or not). We used condoms (or not.)" This way, having this info, the existing partner can make an informed decision about sharing sex again.
 

Millhuas

Member
I personally have the approach of thinking, " I said I am doing 'X' so I will not allow 'Y'. It's how I'm wired right now. My wife is not wired the same way. At the time of her date I asked what she expected to happen because that how I'm wired to parse things. She took my language as requesting some itinerary list of the night what I wanted was to know if she was prepared to have sex with this person. It may seem intrusive to an outside perspective but her partners are my partners by proxy and she and I both deserve to know who is within our sexual circle.

Long story short I have problem putting in a non calculative verbage and she has a problem assuming resolution.
 

Inaniel

Active member
I recall an experience that happened between Daisy and I. Daisy was attending a multi day festival with friends and I asked her who she would be sleeping with, my question was literal and her response was speculation, which of course I interpreted as literal since that was my frame of mind.

After she returned from the festival she revealed that she slept with a different person than she originally told me it would be. A person I having some jealousy issues with no less. The emotions I was feeling about that person in combination with the conversation we had before she left for the festival left me feeling deceived. And in that moment, to be completely honest I could not shake that feeling of deception.

What I learned from that experience is that whenever you are asking someone to speculate you are setting yourself up to feel deceived. Some speculations can be entertaining conversations, because whether the speculation turns out to be accurate or not is inconsequential. I think speculation about emotionally charged topics on the other hand is probably not healthy for most relationships. Ultimately, I decided that speculation about certain topics was not appropriate for my intimate relationships.

I personally have the approach of thinking, " I said I am doing 'X' so I will not allow 'Y'.

I assume your wife knows this about you. So when you ask her if she is prepared for sex what you are really asking her to do is predict the future. Because if she says "no, I am not prepared" and then finds out during the date that she is prepared for sex in that moment, she risks making you feel deceived because you are going to project your own mental hardwiring onto the situation.

The spouse also may be reluctant to say "Yes, I am prepared" for personal reasons.... What if she is not 100% certain? Or maybe she is prepared and excited but doesn't want to jinx it. Or maybe she has been slut shamed in her past and that trauma results in her reluctance to admit that she is prepared to have sex with someone on a first date...

These conversations might seem simple to you but there is a lot to unpack here. In my opinion this sort of speculation is just asking for confusion, hurt feelings, and emotionally charged conversations. I think it is logical to assume that sex can happen at any time and especially on a date, it goes without saying...

As far as preparation for sex? If you have a safe sex agreement than I think the spouse agreeing to have condoms available when she goes out is reasonable. If you do not have a safe sex agreement knowing if protected/unprotected sex happened before you are intimate with your spouse again is reasonable.

Well, there are more parts at play in terms of our history. I flat out had a mental and emotional breakdown crying for almost 20 hrs because I felt and still feel that she and have disproportionate invest in quality time with each other.

This sounds like hell... And she isn't even fucking anyone yet. I honestly think you should re-evaluate your participation in this relationship. Especially if you find things getting worse and not better after dating.
 

Millhuas

Member
This sounds like hell... And she isn't even fucking anyone yet. I honestly think you should re-evaluate your participation in this relationship. Especially if you find things getting worse and not better after dating.
Also, it isn't a matter of jealousy over who she's with and spending time. I have PTSD and have been projecting. We grew apart over COVID and are learning to love each other again.

Not putting words in your mouth just clarifying possible misconception.

Also, parsing it as: "and she isn't even fucking anyone yet." makes it seem like she is prowling. Regardless of what you meant by the statement, it's disrespectful to both of us.
 

Inaniel

Active member
Also, parsing it as: "and she isn't even fucking anyone yet." makes it seem like she is prowling. Regardless of what you meant by the statement, it's disrespectful to both of us.

I honestly have have no idea how you came to that conclusion. And saying the word fuck is not disrespectful regardless of context.

With that said, I hope you get the help you need. Hopefully with a therapist given the complex nature of trauma. With that said, I wish you the best of luck.
 

Magdlyn

Moderator
Staff member
Also, it isn't a matter of jealousy over who she's with and spending time. I have PTSD and have been projecting. We grew apart over COVID and are learning to love each other again.

Not putting words in your mouth just clarifying possible misconception.

Also, parsing it as: "and she isn't even fucking anyone yet." makes it seem like she is prowling. Regardless of what you meant by the statement, it's disrespectful to both of us.
I want to note that adult language, and the use of the graphic word fuck, is allowed here. We are all adults. It's not disrespectful in the culture of this board to use it. There is no stigma placed on your wife, and certainly not on you, to use that term instead of "have sex" or "sleep with."

In fact, being "on the prowl" is OK too! I'm something of a cougar myself. ;)
 

Millhuas

Member
I want to note that adult language, and the use of the graphic word fuck, is allowed here. We are all adults. It's not disrespectful in the culture of this board to use it. There is no stigma placed on your wife, and certainly not on you, to use that term instead of "have sex" or "sleep with."

In fact, being "on the prowl" is OK too! I'm something of a cougar myself. ;)
Thank you for letting me know. Just have some whiplash from people who we've come out to about it that weren't as understanding as we had thought.
 

Millhuas

Member
I honestly have have no idea how you came to that conclusion. And saying the word fuck is not disrespectful regardless of context.

With that said, I hope you get the help you need. Hopefully with a therapist given the complex nature of trauma. With that said, I wish you the best of luck.
Sorry for snapping, just have some whiplash from people who were not as understanding as we thought they were. Thanks for the good luck wishes.
 
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