Bring it up or not my place?

[Plantlady13]

Let's call my primary partner Wind and his partner Leaf.

They are still fairly new. I've felt less joy and excitement for him in this newer relationship than in the past. After spending some time with Leaf, I think I've identified my negative feelings. I believe she is using him. I don't believe it is conscious, but she has made some decisions/actions (several) that I feel are careless to his well-being and selfish. I don't believe that he sees this.

If it were me, I would want Wind to tell me what he sees. Wind has been my partner for many many years and I trust he only wants my happiness.

If it was my best friend, I would bring it up. If it was my brother or sister, I would bring it up.

But, I'm thinking, is this a mind my business situation? It's his relationship, and I don't want him to feel like I'm meddling. I just didn't want him to be unnecessarily hurt.

 

[Magdlyn]

Let's call my primary partner Wind and his partner Leaf.

They are still fairly new.

How long have they been dating? How often do they see each other?

I've felt less joy and excitement for him in this newer relationship than in the past. After spending some time with Leaf, I think I've identified my negative feelings. I believe she is using him.

So you are practicing kitchen table poly, and you've hung out with Leaf several times for extended periods?

I don't believe it is conscious, but she has made some decisions/actions (several) that I feel are careless to his well-being and selfish.

Can you be more specific?

I don't believe that he sees this.

If it were me, I would want Wind to tell me what he sees. Wind has been my partner for many many years and I trust he only wants my happiness.

If it were my best friend, my brother or sister, I would bring it up.

Is this a "mind my business" situation? It's his relationship, and I don't want him to feel like I'm meddling. I just didn't want him to be unnecessarily hurt.

Have you and he given each other relationship advice pertaining to other partners before? If you have, how did that go? Do you take each other's advice to heart and make changes based on it? Or are you more hands-off with him and his other relationships, as an agreement, whereas with friends and family, you give and take advice?

I guess my recommendation depends on how serious of a situation this is. I have advised my bf when he first started poly-dating, been a sounding board, because he didn't have many people with an awareness he was even poly-dating, much less whom. But as time has gone on and he's met more people in the poly community, I have backed off. I've let him make his own mistakes. For example, he tends to be very perseverant with people by text and videocall, who I can tell aren't really into having a real relationship, meeting regularly in person, and so on. He'll text them daily (as far as I know...) and say conventional things, Good morning, how did you sleep, even if they aren't really opening up to him, or forthcoming about their day's activities and future plans.

I think a lot of men don't pick up on hints and subtle nuances as we women do. This happened to him recently. The woman he was persevering with had never met him, even though she wasn't that far away (about an hour). They talked all summer, she'd never agree to meet. Finally she practically had to hit him over the head with a figurative two by four and tell him she wasn't interested. lol

Did he learn anything from this, about wasting his time pursuing someone who was always lukewarm? Time will tell...

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Sometimes people interact with others in ways that work for them and what they bring to each other.

I have a friend who can be dramatic and overreact. There are reasons for that. Her husband takes a firm line to it. He's compassionate and sympathetic, but he draws a line when he feels she's being OTT.

Because he does that, and it keeps her accountable, I can be that person who is a little indulgent and gives her a sounding board to vent as a coping mechanism. If he weren't in her life, I would be in more of an enabling position, because there wouldn't be anyone to balance it out.

I, too, have my limits, but because I'm not so closely entangled with her, I can do what I do without burning out. He could not, as her feelings and actions impact on him so much.

Your partner and metamour situation doesn't sound exactly the same, but be aware that your metamour might strengthen your partner in ways that you do not and possibly cannot. Yes, it might challenge him, and overall, it might just be a shorter-term relationship that he learns a lot about himself from. But it doesn't mean it is definitely bad for him.

 

[Plantlady13]

How long have they been dating? How often do they see each other?

So you are practicing kitchen table poly, and you've hung out with Leaf several times for extended periods?

Can you be more specific?

Have you and he given each other relationship advice pertaining to other partners before? If you have, how did that go? Do you take each other's advice to heart and make changes based on it? Or are you more hands-off with him and his other relationships, as an agreement, whereas with friends and family, you give and take advice?

I guess my recommendation depends on how serious of a situation this is. I have advised my bf when he first started poly-dating, been a soundboard, because he didn't have many people with an awareness he was even poly-dating, much less whom. But as time has gone on and he's met more people in the poly community, I have backed off. I've let him make his own mistakes. For example, he tends to be very perseverant with people by text and videocall, who I can tell aren't really into having a real relationship, meeting regularly in person, and so on. He'll text them daily (as far as I know...) and say conventional things, Good morning, how did you sleep, even if they aren't really opening up to him, or forthcoming about their day's activities and future plans.

I think a lot of men don't pick up on hints and subtle nuances as we women do. This happened to him recently. The woman he was persevering with had never met him, even though she wasn't that far away (about an hour). They talked all summer, she'd never agree to meet. Finally she practically had to hit him over the head with a figurative two by four and tell him she wasn't interested. lol

Did he learn anything from this, about wasting his time pursuing someone who was always lukewarm? Time will tell...

Thank you.

They have been seeing each other for about a year.

We (Leaf and I along with Wind, as well as some decent one-on-one time with Leaf alone) have spent time together on several occasions (full days up to a week).

I struggle with providing enough details because this seems so oddly specific. The biggest thing that has made me feel this way is a consistent pushing him to do things he has expressed that he is not ready for, stating she respects his boundaries, then manipulating him (likely unconsciously) to step over them. On our most recent get-together a few weeks ago, I noted some things in our conversation where I know he thought they were in agreement on something, but she actually had her mind made up in a different direction and was attempting to pull him in that different direction, which he eventually came around to.

Just things that throw up red flags to me. Things that seem disrespectful and self-serving versus caring.

 

[Magdlyn]

Hmm, it's still hard to see what you mean, but I get that you're trying to be discreet.

Maybe she's just getting around his "soft limits" a bit, and he doesn't mind. Is he pretty easily led by you, or other friends and family, too?

The easiest way to not be bothered by this would be to switch to parallel poly and stop seeing Leaf yourself, altogether. This is Wind's relationship. Unless he's about to make a serious mistake, which will truly harm him, or hurt you, you could step back and let him learn his life lessons himself. You don't have to hang out with Leaf if you find her annoying or offensive. You don't have to manage Wind's emotions or soften his blows in poly-dating. And you don't have to listen to him if he wants to complain about Leaf to you. That's not in your job description.

 

[Plantlady13]

Hmm, it's still hard to see what you mean, but I get that you're trying to be discreet.

Maybe she's just getting around his "soft limits" a bit, and he doesn't mind. Is he pretty easily led by you, or other friends and family, too?

The easiest way to not be bothered by this would be to switch to parallel poly and stop seeing Leaf yourself, altogether. This is Wind's relationship. Unless he's about to make a serious mistake, which will truly harm him, or hurt you, you could step back and let him learn his life lessons himself. You don't have to hang out with Leaf if you find her annoying or offensive. You don't have to manage Wind's emotions or soften his blows in poly-dating. And you don't have to listen to him if he wants to complain about Leaf to you. That's not in your job description.

I appreciate it.

He's not easily led or influenced. He's actually quite the opposite. I think this is where I started sensing that this was an issue is that almost every time that he sees her he returns if not just a feeling of full of joy and full of love, but also this agitation or aggravation.

I'll have to give some thought to parallel. Things exist as they do now because all parties wanted to get to know each other, and it is honestly a lot easier for me when we know each other. This is a first, because I positively loved almost everyone else who has been in his life.

One of the boundaries that was pushed is something that has caused fairly significant harm to me and in my relationship with Wind. But I guess, when situations like that happen, it's mine and his responsibility to mend whatever was broken between us. Then it is his responsibility to deal with Leaf, if he feels that her actions were outside of what he thinks is acceptable in that relationship.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Plantlady13,

You could tell Wind that you have concerns about Leaf, then leave it up to him to decide whether to ask you what those concerns are. Once you have expressed your concerns (or that you have concerns), I would suggest leave it up to him to process that and decide what to do. In the meantime, let's hope your instincts are off, nobody wants his bliss to turn into a train wreck. NRE could be clouding his vision. So yes bring it up, just don't try to tell him what to do.

Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[Magdlyn]

I really can't help you more because I don't see what Leaf is saying or doing that is causing Wind to hurt you. If you didn't see Leaf, and if Wind didn't overshare about her with you, would you still be harmed in some way? Is she trying to actively turn him against you? Take up more of his time so you have less?

It sounds like you don't trust Wind to have your best interests at heart. If you're not getting from him what you want, maybe leave Leaf out of it, just restate your needs, and let Wind take it from there?

 

[Plantlady13]

Hi Plantlady13,

You could tell Wind that you have concerns about Leaf, then leave it up to him to decide whether to ask you what those concerns are. Once you have expressed your concerns (or that you have concerns), I would suggest leave it up to him to process that and decide what to do. In the meantime, let's hope your instincts are off, nobody wants his bliss to turn into a train wreck. NRE could be clouding his vision. So yes bring it up, just don't try to tell him what to do.

Regards,
Kevin T.

Thank you. The suggestion to mention I have a concern then let him take it from there is great.

 

[kdt26417]

Cool, I'm glad if I could help.

 

[Plantlady13]

I really can't help you more because I don't see what Leaf is saying or doing that is causing Wind to hurt you. If you didn't see Leaf, and if Wind didn't overshare about her with you, would you still be harmed in some way? Is she trying to actively turn him against you? Take up more of his time so you have less?

It sounds like you don't trust Wind to have your best interests at heart. If you're not getting from him what you want, maybe leave Leaf out of it, just restate your needs, and let Wind take it from there?

Sorry, I know the vagueness is hard.

He doesn't overshare about Leaf. He just happened to have a specific conversation with her about a boundary he and I had agreed to, and she agreed. He updated me that we were all on the same page. Then in my time spent with her I discovered she was more or less actively manipulating him to cross that boundary.

I do trust him to have my best interests at heart. I think Kevin hit the nail on the head and the NRE is at play a bit. I plan to just mention I have concerns if he would like to hear them and let him decide if he wants to or not.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Sorry, I know the vagueness is hard.

He doesn't overshare about Leaf. He just happened to have a specific conversation with her about a boundary he and I had agreed to, and she agreed. He updated me that we were all on the same page. Then in my time spent with her I discovered she was more or less actively manipulating him to cross that boundary.

I do trust him to have my best interests at heart. I think Kevin hit the nail on the head and the NRE is at play a bit. I plan to just mention I have concerns if he would like to hear them and let him decide if he wants to or not.

So here it sounds like you got him to agree to something like using condoms with everyone but you. He then presented this agreement to his other partner who may have found the exclusion intolerable. The other partner then decides to suggest other ways to approach this agreement and your partner is considering whether to adjust your agreement to include at least this partner.

The thing is, relationships are fluid. So while something like no sleepovers MIGHT work early on in a new relationship, most people are going to want to sleepover at some point.

What I've always found to be true is that if someone really doesn't want something, they'll say that themselves. If your partner is not speaking up and reinforcing the original agreement, it's because they're wondering if it actually works for them.

 

[Tinwen]

I would tell him what you have written here, in a similar matter-of-fact tone as your first post. You feel less excitement, you have reasons. I would ask him to just listen, tell him only once and not hammer on the point.
If their dynamics goes on unhealthy in your opinion, I would distance myself / ask for more parallel so that you don't have to watch it first-hand.

 

[Magdlyn]

Sorry, I know the vagueness is hard.

He doesn't overshare about Leaf. He just happened to have a specific conversation with her about a boundary he and I had agreed to, and she agreed. He updated me that we were all on the same page. Then in my time spent with her I discovered she was more or less actively manipulating him to cross that boundary.

Just something to consider: boundaries are something you create for or around yourself. Like, a limit. "No, I will not do that, if you insist, I will leave."

Perhaps you and Wind have made an agreement between the two of you, like, "We will not take other partners to our favorite restaurant." But then, in his relationship with Leaf, Wind is being swayed. He might want to renegotiate that agreement. You wouldn't have known this if you hadn't witnessed Wind being pressured by Leaf to change his mind about the agreement.

Here's the thing: agreements may be permanent, or they may be temporary. There are hard limits and soft limits. If one partner is no longer on board with an agreement, ethically (and polyamory is ethical non-monogamy), they should bring their problem with the agreement to the partner they made it with, state that they're no longer comfortable with it, and say they want to renegotiate it. They may have just outgrown it.

To put it simply, say a 12 year old has a 10 pm curfew on Friday and Saturday nights. But then they turn 14 or 16, and want to stay out until midnight. They tell their parents their problem and ask to renegotiate the curfew, now that they're older.

I do trust him to have my best interests at heart. I think Kevin hit the nail on the head and the NRE is at play a bit. I plan to just mention I have concerns if he would like to hear them and let him decide if he wants to or not.

Any good person should always be ready to listen to their partner's concerns! I guess the only exception would be if the partner is ALWAYS whining and complaining about something. In that case, you'd tune it out as "just their way." Or maybe you'd want to see less of them and spend more time with more positive people.

 

[Plantlady13]

Just something to consider: boundaries are something you create for or around yourself, like, a limit. "No, I will not do that, if you insist, I will leave."

Perhaps you and Wind have made an agreement between the two of you. Like, "We will not take other partners to our favorite restaurant." But then, in his relationship with Leaf, Wind is being swayed. He might want to renegotiate that agreement. You wouldn't have known this if you hadn't witnessed Wind being pressured by Leaf to change his mind about the agreement.

Here's the thing. Agreements may be permanent, or they may be temporary. There are hard limits and soft limits. If one partner is no longer on board with an agreement, ethically (and polyamory is ethical non-monogamy), they should bring their problem with the agreement to the partner they made it with, state that they're no longer comfortable with it, and say they want to renegotiate it. They may have just outgrown it.

To put it simply, say a 12 year old has a 10 pm curfew on Friday and Saturday nights. But then they turn 14 or 16, and want to stay out until midnight. They tell their parents their problem and ask to renegotiate the curfew, now that they're older.

Any good person should always be ready to listen to their partner's concerns! I guess the only exception would be if the partner is ALWAYS whining and complaining about something. In that case, you'd tune it out as "just their way." Or maybe you'd want to see less of them and spend more time with more positive people.

Oh, yes. I completely get this. I did use the wrong term. We made an agreement and he also made the same agreement with her. The new info I have learned is that immediately after their conversation, she was manipulating him to change/not abide by the agreement. (Based on the timeline, it was either the same day or within 48 hours).

I get agreements are ever changing due to any and all individuals' needs. Just knowing she basically agreed but was really thinking "I can get him to change his mind" is irksome. And, I see evidence of her doing it again (him telling her he doesn't want to do something and she says okay then asks again a couple of days later, then cries a lot and says that thing would help, etc).

The realization that she manipulated him and disregarded the agreement was the first (that I'm aware of) and a big one. He and I are good now, but it was a major shake up for us. I'm just noticing a trend, now that I have this new info.

 

[Plantlady13]

I would tell him what you have written here, in a similar matter-of-fact tone as your first post. You feel less excitement, you have reasons. I would ask him to just listen, tell him only once and not hammer on the point.
If their dynamics goes on unhealthy in your opinion, I would distance myself / ask for more parallel so that you don't have to watch it first-hand.

Thank you. I intend to mention that I have concerns if he would like to hear them, and then tell him basically what's in the first post. I won't try to make him see what I see, but I feel wrong about not giving him the opportunity to hear what I see.

 

[GalaGirl]

I don't know if this would help you any.

But, I'm thinking, is this a mind my business situation? It's his relationship, and I don't want him to feel like I'm meddling.

Then ask for clarification. And based on the answer, you will know if Wind would find it is meddling or not.

If it were me, I would want Wind to tell me what he sees. Wind has been my partner for many many years and I trust he only wants my happiness.

To me, if you haven't already talked about this before, you talk about it NOW, because you are NOT Wind, and they may think differently than you. Maybe say something like:

"Partner, we haven't really talked about this before. But how do you want me to be about your other relationships? If it were me, I would want you (Wind) to tell me what you see if something seems off and I'm too NRE to spot it. But perhaps you feel differently. How DO you feel about things like that?"​

And that will guide you on what Wind wants. And you either tell them or don't tell them based on how they answer.

I get agreements are ever-changing, due to any and all individuals' needs. Just knowing she basically agreed, but was really thinking, "I can get him to change his mind" is irksome. And, I see evidence of her doing it again (him telling her he doesn't want to do something and she says okay, then asks again a couple of days later, then cries a lot and says that thing would help, etc.).

I'm old, so this kind of thing would make me roll my eyes.

Having already met her--

• If Leaf is doing this IN FRONT OF ME, I'd say, "Leaf, I feel uncomfortable when you do that behavior in front of me. I prefer you talk to Wind about private (you + Wind) stuff on your own. Could you please be willing to do that?" And if she keeps doing it, I can leave and go home so I am free of hearing all this stuff.
  
  
• If WIND is oversharing and telling me all this stuff, I'd say, "Wind, this is oversharing. I don't need to know all these details about (you + Leaf). I prefer you solve (you + Leaf) things over THERE in that dyad without involving me. I cannot be impartial because I'm INSIDE the dating system. If you need to organize your thoughts, it's better to talk to a trusted friend OUTSIDE the dating system who could be more neutral and then you talk to Leaf directly."

Either way, I'd move to parallel poly and let Wind deal with this and any future issues. Wind is the one dating her. Wind can field this.

I also expect Wind to still keep shared agreements they made with ME over here in THIS dyad.

Oh, yes. I completely get this. I did use the wrong term. We made an agreement and he also made the same agreement with her. The new info I have learned is that immediately after their conversation, she was manipulating him to change/not abide by the agreement. (Based on the timeline, it was either the same day or within 48 hours).

It kinda sounds like WIND was oversharing. Is that true?

I just didn't want him to be unnecessarily hurt.

I don't think it's a big deal if he dates Leaf and over time realizes that Leaf is a drag/annoying/nice enough, but not compatible, and then feels sad after they break up, etc.

He's an adult who is willing to date people. Presumably he can handle the ups and downs of dating like an adult, and the ups and downs of having adult feelings.

Why are you so worried about him "being hurt" or experiencing adult feelings?

Does he come running to you dumping things on you? Do he behaves poorly around you, or....? Do you have good emotional boundaries with each other?

I'll have to give some thought to parallel. Things exist as they do now because all parties wanted to get to know each other, and it is honestly a lot easier for me when we know each other. This is a first, because I positively loved almost everyone else who has been in his life.

I think "parallel" is where people could start. They don't have to ever do garden party or KTP or lap sitting or other models. Basic polite is good enough if you bump into each other in town or something.

Even in parallel poly, if y'all want to meet once to put faces to the names, and then go back to parallel, you can do that. You don't have to hang out with metas a lot. You are not obligated to.

Maybe you could unpack some of this. WHY does it "make it easier" for you if you know metas? I mean, you know Leaf NOW. It doesn't sound easier.

I could be wrong in my impression, but it kinda sounds like knowing this meta makes you uncomfortable, because you don't think Wind would stand up to Leaf if she behaved poorly around him.

Is that true?

Galagirl

 

[Plantlady13]

Maybe something like:

"Partner, we haven't really talked about this before. But how do you want me to be about your other relationships? If it were me, I would want you (Wind) to tell me what you see if something seems off and I'm too NRE to spot it. But perhaps you feel differently. How DO you feel about things like that?"​

It kinda sounds like WIND was oversharing. Is that true?


Why are you so worried about him "being hurt" or experiencing adult feelings?

Does he come running to you dumping things on you or behaves poorly at you or....? Do you have good emotional boundaries with each other?

Maybe you could unpack some of this. WHY does it "make it easier" for you if you know metas? I mean, you know meta NOW. It doesn't sound easier.

Thank you. That helps a lot, especially the conversation to have with Wind on how he wants me to be with other relationships.

Wind is not oversharing. The new information was an Ah-ha after Leaf said something about that time/agreement. Nothing Wind has said has been an issue. It's just that in this situation, we had an agreement and he told me he would talk with her and wanted the same agreement, then just said something along the lines of "Conversation went really well. She's in agreement." Then, months later, she mentions to me that she essentially disregarded it, because she thought he would come around.

I'm worried about him being hurt because I love him, same as I would worry about a friend/sister/brother. If I felt like they were in a relationship that was causing them harm or could cause them harm, my love for them makes me concerned. I would hate for any of them to ever say "I wish I knew," and know that I had that information but didn't share it. He doesn't dump things on me, though I'm happy to support him through difficult things. He's honestly never been really hurt by anyone, so I'm not entirely sure how much he would rely on me in that event.

I will give some more thought to why it makes me more comfortable to know metas. Thus far, that's been the case, and I've gotten along beautifully with them. This is just new territory.

 

[GalaGirl]

Then, months later, she mentions to me that she essentially disregarded it because she thought he would come around.

Thank you for more info. It sounds Leaf is oversharing to you about (Leaf) or (Leaf + Wind) stuff, and you could tell Leaf, "No, thanks. I prefer not to know things like that."

Then you don't have to care or worry about it. If Wind can hold the line and maintain their agreements with you, it doesn't matter if Leaf makes wonky agreements, like agreeing in the moment, but disregarding because she thinks Wind would come around. Wind's gonna discover what Leaf is like soon enough. It's on Wind to sort all that out with Leaf. They can have different agreements. Or Wind can dump Leaf because Leaf turned out to be too flaky. It's all up to Wind.

You don't have to lift a finger or get involved in that side of the V.

I'm worried about him being hurt because I love him, same as I would worry about a friend/sister/brother. If I felt like they were in a relationship that was causing them harm or could cause them harm, my love for them makes me concerned. I would hate for any of them to ever say "I wish I knew" and know that I had that information but didn't share it.

It's fine to care about people, but you might examine your emotional boundaries here. If people want to know things, couldn't they ASK you? You can't be a mind reader.

If they express "I wish I knew that before," could you say, "I see that," and let them experience their feelings/wishes WITHOUT you feeling responsible for fixing it for them/having failed to fix it for them?

In sharing your opinion when they have not asked for it, are you really helping THEM? Or are you trying to solve your OWN anxiety around it by trying to "warn them," or "fix it for them so you don't have to feel anxious or wait"?

I will give some more thought to why it makes me more comfortable to know metas. Thus far, that's been the case, and I've gotten along beautifully with them. This is just new territory.

I wonder if it's about your anxiety management. Like, if you meet and "they are a good one" you can bring your anxiety to calm? And here you think Leaf might not be a good one, so all meeting them did was crank up the anxiety rather than reduce it? I might be wrong, but maybe something to reflect on.

GG

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Okay, it sounds like he just didn't want to keep the agreement, because it would obstruct his relationship with his other partner. Your metamour isn't obliged to keep your agreements. You and your partner have some obligation to do so, but you are allowed to change your mind, too.

I think you're struggling with the reality of your partner having another real partner and what that means. It means that they have another person who they are as motivated to appease as they are you. Knowing that your partner would change their mind totally just because they want to sustain their relationship with someone else can be a difficult pill to swallow. It means there is someone who they view as important to them as you are.