Couples counseling issues

gaPoly83

New member
Seeking words of advice.

My wife and I started couples counseling about 7 months ago due to issues in our poly life. After my wife gave her enthusiastic consent to both me and my gf last year (which I now realize wasn’t necessary or ethical, however, it was important for my then gf because they were friends at the time), she decided she was no longer comfortable with us dating after only a few weeks. We had all been friends for about 3 years at this point. I told her I wasn’t going to allow her to veto the relationship. She indicated that this was against an agreement we had in place. I contended we did not have a veto agreement in place.

She has since broken up with her most current bf.

Fast forward 6 months later, and my wife hates our poly therapist. She does, however, like our family therapist. The family therapist claims she is familiar with poly lifestyles. So my wife asks if we can fire our poly couples therapist and I agreed, trying to get along. Now our new therapist (former family therapist) wants me to “take a break” from my gf while we work on our issues and agreements.

I do not agree with this, for many reasons. I have stated all along that this was a “line in the sand” for me. I am not willing to hurt someone who isn’t a part of the issues we have. My gf has not done anything to my wife. Now I realize it’s different because the therapist (not my wife) is asking me to take a break. But this is something my wife has been asking for since day 1. I have some suspicions that this is something they communicated about without me being there.

So my current plan is to go to our next appointment and let them both know I won’t be taking the requested break. I am willing to forgo the next two weekends of seeing her. However, if I do this, I plan on taking the following two weekends with her. So a physical break, but not an emotional or communication one, is something I am willing to do.

Any advice is welcome. I will add there is DV on the table on her part. We separated last year for 6 months because she attacked me physically. I have moved back in to the house and am trying to work it out. I have one foot out the door at this point, but I want to give this everything I ethically can.

I am on a mobile phone so my apologies for misspellings. There is also a ton of minutia I am leaving out and I am happy to clarify anything I might be missing.
 
I don't know if my opinion will help you any. Make of it what you will.

Our therapist wants me to “take a break” from my gf while we work on our issues and agreements.

I think you get to say, "No, thank you. I won't be doing that. I'm willing to consider other options you suggest. Since the problems are over here in the marriage, and they include domestic violence, I'm willing to consider a trial separation with my wife. She and I can change to living separately while attending counseling.

I am also willing to transfer to another family therapist if you have referrals to someone more experienced in domestic violence."

Put it all on the table plain. Does the counselor even know about the DV?

So my current plan is to go to our next appointment and let them both know I won’t be taking the requested break.

Fair enough. You are in charge of what you will and will not do. You decide what you are and are not up for.

I am willing to forgo the next two weekends of seeing her. However, if I do this, I plan on taking the following two weekends with her. So a physical break, but not an emotional or communication one, is something I am willing to do.

Fair enough. Your time and calendar are yours to manage. You decide where you will and will not spend your time.

I assume you told your gf you are now doing couples counseling and need some of your free time to go to appointments.


Any advice is welcome. I will add there is DV on the table on her part. We separated last year for 6 months because she attacked me physically. I have moved back in to the house and am trying to work it out. I have one foot out the door at this point, but I want to give this everything I ethically can.

It's also ok to just be DONE, and not give any more.

The cycle of abuse and domestic violence is no joke. You might forgive your wife for the attack, but that doesn't mean you HAVE to work anything out, or HAVE to start over with her from a "clean slate." You can just be done. You can tell her you hope she heals and doesn't do that any more with future partners. But for you, it's done. You are no longer a partner. You are broken up and want a divorce.

Do you have an individual counselor at this juncture, or are you down to just this couples counselor?

Galagirl
 
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I think you get to say "No, thank you. I won't be doing that. I'm willing to consider other options you suggest. Since the problems are over here in the marriage and they include Domestic Violence, I'm willing to consider a trial separation. Wife and I can change to living separately while attending counseling.

I am also willing to transfer to another family therapist if you have referrals to someone more experienced in domestic violence."

Put it all on the table plain. Does the counselor even know about the DV?

I assume you told your gf you are now doing couples counseling and need some of your free time to go to appointments.

It's also ok to just be DONE, and not give any more.

The cycle of abuse and domestic violence is no joke. You might forgive your wife for the attack, but that doesn't mean you HAVE to work anything out, or HAVE to start over from "clean slate."

You can just be done. You can tell her you hope she heals and doesn't do that any more with future partners. But for you it's done. You are no longer a partner. You are broken up.

Do you have an individual counselor at this juncture, or are you down to just this couples counselor?
Thank you for the reply. I started individual therapy in the last two weeks to answer my question of “Am I done?” I actually really appreciate the additional advice of “We can do a trial separation.” I will be honest and say there is a very petty side of me that wants to lie and say “Good job. You broke me and my gf up and I now resent you both. How do we continue to work together?” but I know that isn’t helpful in any way. That actually is a better, more ethical response.

I do believe this is coming to a head. So that may very well be the decision I make. Unfortunately, there is a daughter in the picture and other financial enmeshments that make things VERY difficult.
 
I'm glad you have an individual counselor lined up. Does your child need family therapy?

There is a very petty side of me that wants to lie and say “Good job. You broke me and my gf up and I now resent you both. How do we continue to work together?” but I know that isn’t helpful in any way. That actually is a better, more ethical response.

I think this is stuff you unpack with your individual counselor, how to express your anger/upset appropriately. I don't think telling lies and being petty to your wife is the way to go. That's not behavior you can be proud of.

Better would be to get all the "petty" out in a Google Doc and then delete it. Not to actually DO, but just to get all the petty fantasy out and expressed. But not actually acted on.

Unfortunately there is a daughter in the picture and other financial enmeshments that make things VERY difficult.

One does the right thing because it's the right thing to do, not because it's the easiest thing to do.

If there is a kid, you make arrangements to take care of her, and make sure she is safe. Is she safe? Would your wife hurt your kid?

If there are financial entanglements, you take steps to disband them.

You can talk to a lawyer about separation agreements that include care of your child, and then what your divorce options are.

One baby step at a time. You can get through this.

Galagirl
 
Does your child need therapy?

I think this is stuff you unpack with your individual counselor, how to express your anger/upset appropriately. I don't think telling lies and being petty is the way to go. That's not behavior you can be proud of.

One does the right thing because it's the right thing to do., not because it's the easiest thing to do.

You make arrangements to take care of the kid and make sure she is safe.

If there are financial entanglements, you take steps to disband them.

One baby step at a time.
So very true on all parts. I will be getting my daughter in counseling once this is settled either way.

Thank you for your advice. I truly appreciate it.
 
If you think wife is using this counselor, and not giving them all the info, you can request an individual appointment with the couples counselor to lay it out all on the table plain, INCLUDING that you think wife might be pulling the wool over counselor's eyes, because sometimes abusers try to use professionals and institutions to continue the abuse by proxy.

You can ask how the counselor guards against that, and also how they "fire" clients that are out of line. Find out what can you expect from this counselor.

You can also ask your counselor to refer to a new counselor to be the couples one. And they can remain as wife's individual therapist. You've already got your own individual therapist.

You can also seek other ones here.

Polyamory-Friendly Professionals Directory

Polyamory-Friendly Professionals Directory
www.polyfriendly.org

GG
 
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If you think wife is using this counselor, not giving them all the info, you can request an individual appointment with the couples counselor to lay it out all on the table plain. INCLUDING that you think wife might be pulling the wool over counselor's eyes, because sometimes abusers try to use professionals and institutions to continue the abuse by proxy.

You can ask how the counselor guards against that, how the counselor "fires" clients that are out of line. Find out what you can expect from this counselor.

You can also ask this counselor to refer you to a new counselor to be the couples one. And they can remain as wife's individual therapist. You've already got your own individual therapist.

You can also seek other ones here.


GG
I guess my central question is: I find this unethical for her to ask. Should this be a “we are done working together” kind of thing? Or since we haven’t worked together long, should I give her some grace?
 
I guess my central question is: I find this unethical for her to ask. Should this be a “we are done working together” kind of thing? Or since we haven’t worked together long I should give her some grace?

I don't know what you mean. Would you please be willing to clarify?

She asks if we can fire our poly couples therapist and I agreed, trying to get along.

I get the vibe you were mostly going along with this to please your wife, and not because you think this counselor is so much better than the old one.

I mean, you could have just picked one who is not the old one, and NOT the family one.

But counseling gets expensive, and if this is just a delay tactic from your wife, you gotta consider that too.

If you like her for family therapy, but prefer someone else for the poly stuff, get someone else.

If you are going to give her a try, I would also ask what other poly clients this family counselor has had, or if you are the first. If the first, what prep work has she done? Has she read What Psychology Professionals Should Know About Polyamory and Polyamory: A Clinical Toolkit for Therapists (and Their Clients)? Gotten training somewhere? How does she continue her poly education? Attend conferences and lectures? Run groups at the LGBT+ center? What?

Why were you seeing them in the first place for family therapy? The DV? Something else?

I could see the counselor asking you AND wife to pause poly dating any NEW people for X months, to focus on counseling work. There's enough going on here without adding more people to the mix. That's fair.

But I think existing people could stay. It's not like either one of you is going to "take a break from being parents" to your kid because you're doing counseling, or "take a break" from going to work, right? Why would you take a break from your poly GF? She's not the one causing you problems. If wife no longer wants to do polyamory, that's fair. She doesn't have to. She can bow out, rather then telling you to dump people.

If it were me, I'd move back out of the house, have a trial separation for a year's lease, do the coparenting agreements while sorting out what this new counseling is even for:

  • To try to reconcile.
  • Or for guidance and support through a divorce process.
  • If you're still flapping about a year later, it's not going anywhere, there's been no significant progress, you gave it a good-faith effort. You tried to turn over all the rocks. So it's ok to pull the plug and call it there.

Why did the wife not like the original poly therapist?

GG
 
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She didn’t like the original poly therapist because she told her “There are other people involved and you’re not going to get everything you want.” I truly think she didn’t enjoy being told what reality was, but she boiled it down to “I don’t feel good when I get done with those sessions.”

I will do some more investigating on this person. She did seem helpful with the family therapy. I don’t know her qualifications beyond what was stated before. I do think she works well for my wife. She seems willing to call out her martyrdom tendencies. I liked her as a person. I don’t feel like she is taking the relationships of everyone in consideration, or if she feels that couples privilege is more important or the only way to fix things.

I think you’re right, though. More information is needed. We meet on Tuesday and I will make sure to investigate more thoroughly and gain better understanding.

I also missed a question. We are seeing her originally because my wife decided to bring our kids (step kids) into our arguments and has extremely bad boundary issues with our kids. She has thus far been helpful in getting her to help with at least some of those issues. We were seeing our original poly therapist through the last instance of DV.
 
She didn’t like the original poly therapist because she told her “There are other people involved and you’re not going to get everything you want.”

The therapist ass correct. One doesn't treat people like they are disposable.

I truly think she didn’t enjoy being told what reality was, but she boiled it down to “I don’t feel good when I get done with those sessions.”

Last I checked, people attend therapy to improve themselves. Sessions sometimes ARE tiring. You cry, get worn out, have to think about hard things, do homework, etc. It's a process.

It's not a "court," where the counselor tells you that you are wrong and wife is right.

It's not a place for the counselor to kiss your ass or wife's ass.

Counselors FIRE clients who waste their time and don't really want to work on themselves or heal.They go help other people who DO want to do the work instead.

The last counselor I went to had that on a big sign in the lobby, what the patient's responsibilities are, and that they WILL fire clients who shirk their responsibilities.

I do think she works well for my wife. She seems willing to call out her martyrdom tendencies. I liked her as a person.

Then it can change to this one being your wife's individual counselor if she "clicks" for that.

I think you’re right though. More information is needed. We meet on Tuesday and I will make sure to investigate more thoroughly and gain better understanding.

Yup. Ask the counselor what she meant. And if she does not click for you as a poly counselor, ask for a referral from this one, your old one, and check on https://www.polyfriendly.org for more. Find one that works for both.

Wife didn't like the old one. You didn't like this one. Fair enough. Both got one pass. Find another one that clicks for you both.

But if your wife is just stalling by changing therapists every few months? State which ones you will work with and that's it. The ball is in wife's court. If she comes to appointments, great. If not, you withdraw your willingness to work anything out with wife. You file for divorce and get out.

You only have one life to live. You can't spend it going around in twirly whirly circles forever with her.There's a point. You CAN have a limit of tolerance.

For many people, the DV would be the dealbreaker right there, and they wouldn't seeking counseling to fix anything at all. So be sure all counselors know about the DV.

Galagirl
 
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I also missed a question. We are seeing her originally because my wife decided to bring our kids (step kids) into our arguments and has extremely bad boundary issues with our kids. She has thus far been helpful in getting her to help with at least some of those issues. We were seeing our original poly therapist through the last instance of DV.

I'm not diagnosing, but is this like wife recruiting?


Do you have any of that going on?

Things here sound really weird, and definitely inappropriate, with dragging kids into it, even if they are adult kids. It's worse if they are children/teens. :(

GG
 
I'm not diagnosing, but is this like wife recruiting?


Do you have any of that going on?

Things here sound really weird, and definitely inappropriate, with dragging kids into it, even if they are adult kids. It's worse if they are children/teens. :(
Oh, it’s been bad, I have no delusion of that. And I truly appreciate the soft word choice of “weird.” We are beyond weird over here, thus why there are three therapists involved.

I’m sure there is some truth to the proxy part. After they (teenagers) became involved, they sat me down and told me I needed to end my relationship with my gf. One of them has also messaged my gf through the web to call her a “homewrecking whore.” I have had to apologize multiple times for all of this. I am lucky to have an understanding girlfriend. It's lucky she was friends with my wife before this all happened. She is okay, btw. I’m trying to compartmentalize as best as I can, but obviously she is way more in the know of issues going on than I’d like.
 
Jeez! In family therapy, were the teens told that you and your wife had agreed to polyamory, and that wife also had some bfs, that this wasn't one one of you cheating on the other one, and that you'd prefer the teens let the adults sort out their marriage problems on their own?

Even if wife sucks with her boundaries, YOU can have them with your children. I really think you could consider moving back out and doing that trial separation. Things here sound hella weird. At least then the kids would get BREAKS if they wanted. They could stay with one parent or the other, and not be stuck in the house of wacko. :(

You could ask them if they needed breaks from BOTH parents and wanted to stay with Grandma, or another relative, or at a friend's house sometimes.

I'm glad you have counselors, but you can't keep switching. Figure out which ones click and SEE IT THROUGH.

GG
 
The kids are aware we are poly. They are aware that my wife has had bfs and gfs in a romantic way.

When they “confronted” me, I told them in no uncertain terms that this was an adult problem between married people that they should not be involved in this. It was the catalyst for the family therapy. They are both my step kids. We do have a young daughter that is our bio kid together. She has, so far, remained mostly unaware of the issues.
 
When they “confronted” me, I told them in no uncertain terms that this was an adult problem between married people that they should not be involved in this. It was the catalyst for the family therapy.

Good for you. Hopefully the teens stay out of it and get support through this in family therapy.

If this counselor's main role is to be "Team Kids," maybe you don't want them to the be poly counselor for the marriage. Maybe their only role is to refer to you someone else, so that all counselors can work with each other ok, but each one sticks to their main area.

  • Counselor for just you
  • Counselor for just wife
  • Kid counselor/family therapy, as it pertains to the kids and their care
  • Then a poly marriage counselor to determine the fate of this marriage.
I hope you feel a bit better for airing out some. You have a lot going on. I hope things get better for you over time.

GG
 
I agree. I think with what happened last session, either they will go back to family therapy for us, or the marriage will be over. Either way, next week is going to suck hard.
 
Line up your supports.

  • Air things out with friends. Choose to NOT talk about this or, talk about this, as you need. Get coffee or something.
  • Schedule yoga/massage if you can, so you aren't holding stress in the body.
  • Cut corners on chores, like, get in a supply of frozen food and paper plates to reduce cooking/dishes next week so you free up time for rest.
  • If you have days off from work, use them wisely. REST.

GG
 
My wife and I started couples counseling about 7 months ago, due to issues in our poly life... She decided she was no longer comfortable with us dating after only a few weeks. We had all been friends for about 3 years at this point. I told her I wasn’t going to allow her to veto the relationship. She indicated that this was against an agreement we had in place. I contended we did not have a veto agreement in place. She has since broken up with her bf.
Hi, and welcome to the forum.

How did you and your wife decide to open your marriage? How much prep work did you do in advance?

How long were you poly dating? How many partners did you both have prior to the start of poly/family counseling?

Did your wife have some misguided idea that if things didn’t work out with her partner, you were supposed to break up with your gf, or put things on hold until she could find a new one? Or has she had a run of bad luck and wants to bail on the whole thing?

Fast forward 6 months later and my wife hates our poly therapist. She does however like our family therapist. The family therapist claims she is familiar with poly lifestyles. So she asks if we can fire our poly couples therapist. I agreed, trying to get along. Now our new therapist wants me to “take a break” from my gf while we work on our issues and agreements.
I’ve heard several mono people say the exact opposite. They’d much prefer not getting used to 100% focus and attention, only to have it taken back away whenever the so-called “fix" is done.


I have stated all along that this was a “line in the sand” for me. I am not willing to hurt someone who isn’t a part of the issues we have. My gf has not done anything to my wife. Now I realize it’s different, because the therapist is asking me to take a break, and not my wife, but this is something my wife has been asking for since day 1. I have some suspicions that this is something they communicated about without me being there.
What is the issue specifically? Time management?


So my current plan is to go to our next appointment and let them both know I won’t be taking the requested break. I am willing to forgo the next two weekends of seeing her however if I do this, I plan on taking the following two weekends with her. So a physical break but not an emotional or communication one is something I am willing to do.
What’s your normal routine, or time split with your gf? What was your wife’s routine with her bfs and gfs?

I will add there is DV on her part. We separated last year for 6 months because she attacked me physically. I have moved back in to the house and am trying to work it out. I have one foot out the door at this point, but I want to give this everything I ethically can.
With one foot out the door, it sounds like DV is very much on the table for you. too.
 
How did you and your wife decide to open your marriage? How much prep work did you do in advance ?

How many partners did you both have prior to the start of poly/family counseling?

Did you wife have some misguided idea that if things didn’t work out with her partner you were supposed to break up or put things on hold with your gf until she could find a new one? Or has she had a run of bad luck and wants to bail on the whole thing?

I’ve heard several mono people say the exact opposite. They’d much prefer not getting used to 100% focus and attention, only to have it taken back away whenever the so-called “fix" was done.


What is the issue specifically? Time management?

What’s your normal routine, or time split with your gf? What was your wife’s routine with her gfs and bfs?

With one foot out the door, it sounds like DV is very much on the table for you too.
I’m not sure how to do the quotes part of your response so I’ll try and paragraph this as best as I can.

We started out swinging. My wife discovered that she found herself having romantic feelings for people, and we moved into a poly dynamic, with her having a gf first. My current gf is the first relationship I’ve had that did not involve my wife. My wife has had 4 relationships, with both males and females.

We had many talks along the way and we both felt the communication was open and honest. Admittedly, we could have done more, but there doesn’t seem to be any hard and fast, "Okay, you're ready now" schedule. We did what we felt was right, but given where we are now, I can’t defend saying it was good enough, obviously. The one thing I wish we had done was to write down our agreements.

She claims that she does not want to end poly, but in our arguments she has said she doesn’t want to be anymore. However, I believe this was said in spite. The proof of that to me is that she continues to pursue relationships.

As for her “issues," the tl:dr is that shortly after my gf and I became an item, we had a trip that included my wife, with a group of friends. My gf and I both had NRE going and my wife was not okay with it. Apologies were made from both of us and we agreed that for the time being all 3 of us would not hang out. We didn’t specially say “go parallel” at that point, but it was basically what happened. For whatever reason, the apologies and agreement to not hang out all together did not assuage her, and she continued to express discomfort with the situation, although I never got a better examination as to why.

My normal routine with my gf is that we see each other every other weekend for about 36 hours, and I try and spend one night a week with her, for about 12 hours total.

I am admittedly confused as to your last statement about DV being on the table for myself. I have NEVER hit anyone in my life. I am close to being a pacifist and do not in anyway condone physical violence whatsoever, unless it’s self defense, and even then I’d like to think it’s very limited.
 
I’m not sure how to do the quotes part of your response.
Simple go to the last word and hit return.👍😉 It drops it down.

We started out swinging. My wife discovered that she found herself having romantic feelings for people and we moved into a poly dynamic with her having a gf first. My current GF is the first relationship I’ve had that did not involve my wife.
So has it been months or years that you’ve been in a poly dynamic?

Are all potential candidates from swinging encounters?

My wife has had 4 relationships, with both males and females.
Lasting? Is there a pattern? No judgment. I'm just wondering if it could be NRE, or an expectations issue.

We had many talks along the way. We both felt the communication was open and honest. Admittedly we could have done more but there doesn’t seem to be any hard and fast "Okay, you're ready now" schedule. We did what we felt was right. But given where we are now, I can’t defend saying it was good enough, obviously. The one thing I wish we had done was to write down our agreements.
I think maybe coming from the swinging background, the mindset was/is "us adding people to our marriage,“ where, in fact, the old marriage is dead and gone, and something new is being built on the old site with some salvaged materials. There’s a mourning phase and a complete recalibration of expectations.
She claims that she does not want to end poly, but in our arguments she has said she doesn’t want to be anymore. However I believe this was said in spite. The proof of that to me is that she continues to pursue relationships.
Not exactly open and honest communication. Maybe pick/hammer at that, in counseling to get the truth.

As for her issues, the tl:dr is that shortly after my gf and I became an item, we had a trip that included my wife with a group of friends. My gf and I both had NRE going and my wife was not okay with it. Apologies were made from both of us, and we agreed that for the time being all 3 of us would not hang out. We didn’t specially say “go parallel” at that point, but it was basically what happened. For whatever reason, the apologies and agreement to not hang out all together did not assuage her, and she continued to express discomfort with the situation, although I never got a better examination as to why.
Do you or gf think your NRE was offensive? I know apologies were extended and that didn’t seem to fix the slight. BOTTOM LINE, romantic relationships causing NRE is a big part of why people do this. Fucking all sides have to deal with NRE is another fact.

My normal routine with my gf is that we see each other every other weekend for about 36 hours, and spend one night a week with her for about 12 hours total.
Was you wife’s routine similar? Did you split those weekends and nights, or did they run concurrently?

I am admittedly confused as to your last statement about DV being on the table for myself. I have NEVER hit anyone in my life. I am close to being a pacifist and do not in any way condone physical violence whatsoever, unless it’s self defense, and even then I’d like to think it’s very limited.
Sorry, too many distractions here. I meant to say DV as in, putting you one step closer to divorce, or helping push you toward that direction, on top of the poly nonsense.
 
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