Covid-19

FallenAngelina

Active member
Thousands upon thousands of Americans have been lining up for help from food banks, with lines being sometimes four and five miles long.

https://www.npr.org/2020/04/17/8371...at-one-texas-food-bank-as-job-losses-hit-hard

First of all, that's one food bank and it's giving away free food, it's not a grocery store, so of course there will be a huge line. There are lines everywhere right now. Temporary. There are people who are not working (which is very different than unemployed) right now and need help making ends meet. Temporary. Their jobs are on hold due to a health crisis that is resolving, they are not unemployed because of a bad economy. Temporary. That food bank will see numbers like this only briefly and then it will recede when Texas begins to re-open its schools and businesses.

Second, there is no indication at all in that article that anyone was turned away. The line is indeed impressive, but all were served. Again, I'd ask you to show me where there is a food shortage or an access problem due to the Covid-19 situation. Lines at food banks do not equate to a food shortage or an access problem. Lines at grocery stores are due to social distancing, not a food access problem. Please show me where anyone is turned away from a food bank or a grocery store that has no food left and that person eats nothing because of it. Again I will stress that the produce aisles are bursting with healthy options for anyone who cares to avail herself of unprocessed, nutritious food - and for a mere fraction of the cost of what's ravaged out of the frozen food section. Produce displays are full now, have been full every day throughout this crisis and will continue to be. Nevermind my local Whole Foods, there are 40,000 grocery stores in this country. Show me one store where crowds of hungry shoppers beg for healthy options that are nowhere to be found.

You're full of theories, River. The internet is full of theories about a lot of things that could happen, written by enthusiasts who fancy themselves experts. Where is a food shortage actually happening? Where are the people who are unable to eat because of the Covid-19 situation? Show me anyone who is unable to access healthy food like kale, broccoli and beans in a store. A disruption in a system does not always mean a disaster. and in fact a disruption can present an opportunity to do things differently, to do things better. You've busied yourself with studying all of the ways that a food disaster could happen, but nevertheless, no food disaster is actually happening. If anything, this disruption in food delivery seems to be doing us a favor and is prompting many of us to re-think our dependence on convenience food and unhealthy eating habits that have led to such an obesity epidemic in this country.
 
Last edited:

AlwaysGrowing

Active member
First of all, that's one food bank and it's giving away free food, it's not a grocery store, so of course there will be a huge line. There are lines everywhere right now. Temporary. There are people who are not working (which is very different than unemployed) right now and need help making ends meet. Temporary. Their jobs are on hold due to a health crisis that is resolving, they are not unemployed because of a bad economy. Temporary. That food bank will see numbers like this only briefly and then it will recede when Texas begins to re-open its schools and businesses.

Second, there is no indication at all in that article that anyone was turned away. The line is indeed impressive, but all were served. Again, I'd ask you to show me where there is a food shortage or an access problem due to the Covid-19 situation. Lines at food banks do not equate to a food shortage or an access problem. Lines at grocery stores are due to social distancing, not a food access problem. Please show me where anyone is turned away from a food bank or a grocery store that has no food left and that person eats nothing because of it. Again I will stress that the produce aisles are bursting with healthy options for anyone who cares to avail herself of unprocessed, nutritious food - and for a mere fraction of the cost of what's ravaged out of the frozen food section. Produce displays are full now, have been full every day throughout this crisis and will continue to be. Nevermind my local Whole Foods, there are 40,000 grocery stores in this country. Show me one store where crowds of hungry shoppers beg for healthy options that are nowhere to be found.

You're full of theories, River. The internet is full of theories about a lot of things that could happen, written by enthusiasts who fancy themselves experts. Where is a food shortage actually happening? Where are the people who are unable to eat because of the Covid-19 situation? Show me anyone who is unable to access healthy food like kale, broccoli and beans in a store. A disruption in a system does not always mean a disaster. and in fact a disruption can present an opportunity to do things differently, to do things better. You've busied yourself with studying all of the ways that a food disaster could happen, but nevertheless, no food disaster is actually happening. If anything, this disruption in food delivery seems to be doing us a favor and is prompting many of us to re-think our dependence on convenience food and unhealthy eating habits that have led to such an obesity epidemic in this country.

I disagree that fresh options are cheaper than processed. Everyone I know who sticks to a strict, very limited grocery budget is often forced to settle for more processed snacks than fresh ones. Why? Because they're more filling over a long span of time. Processed snack bar (granola bar, fig bar, etc) - kid is happy for a couple of hours. Carrots, cucumber, cherry tomatoes - kid is happy for a half hour. Add in peanut butter or something to make it more filling and all the sudden it is more expensive than the bars AND still has processed sugar and preserves (because the cheap peanut butter is never the good stuff, and tight budgets don't allow for the ones with one or two ingredients).

I agree with you in general that so far we are not seeing food access issues. Food banks and schools are giving out food and not running out. Individuals are sharing with those that can't get to those organizations during operating hours. Community pantries are well stocked. May not be nutritious, but people are eating as much if not more than ever.

I have no idea what that will be like in a few months though. I do see more local farms doing CSAs/farm shares and such so the food goes directly to consumers instead of local restaurants and small markets. So far the only food being wasted outside of the normal is from factories with outbreaks who are concerned about the safety of the food.
 

River

New member
I'm done here. Some responders here simply haven't the slighted apprehension of the complexity of what we're discussing, and I don't have the time to explain that complexity -- especially when it's obvious to me that there is a strong emotional attachment to the POV being defended. It just uses up too much of my valuable time and energy. If you all want to go on believing that there is no actual food crisis, or economic crisis, have at it. It's none of my damned business any more.
 

ref2018

Member
the slighted apprehension

You mean "slightest comprehension," or was that a Freudian slip?

Ever heard of a saying that goes (I'm paraphrasing), "Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand you"?

Not *you* you, as in a particular individual on this forum, but "you" like people in general.
 

Dagferi

Active member
I worked in the corporate offices of an East Coast grocery chain for the last three years in the meat buyers offices while I took a break from my veterinary career due to burn out.

Yes there is a food shortage of meat. We have the supply but the processing end of things has been hit hard. Chicken has to be killed within a short window. Perdue, Tyson, JBS, Swift, and etc has staffing issues.

Right now I am frightened due to watching the markets and in store pricing. Beef and pork is bought 6 months in advance. The suppliers cannot meet their contracts. So stores are having to buy from the open market. Which means you pay what their asking. I have never seen prices per pound so high. We are also going to be competing with foreign demand. China especially.

Boneless Skinless chicken breast is usually $1.99/lb for 15% enhanced (added water for texture) that was $3.99 per pound. Bone in pork is usually $1.49/lb that was $3.49/lb. Beef is running $3/lb higher. They are limiting ground beef.

My former coworkers who I still talk to say it is scary and they are having issues getting supplies. Things are going to get really ugly when the suppliers start only filling the large chains like Albertsons, Aldi, Walmart, Kroger and etc first because they are going to want to keep them happy

The issue is on the processing end of things ot is a dirty nasty job. That the average American will not do. It is also done in close quarters with others. These workers also come from cultural backgrounds in which they live with many others. They have been hit hard by COVID 19.

Things are going to get really bad soon and the poor are going to pay the price.
 

FallenAngelina

Active member
I'm done here.
For me, this topic is interesting and engaging, but it's not something I feel emotionally attached to. If it's upsetting to you, then perhaps disengagement is wise at this point. However, if I may point out: You've left in upset several times from this forum over the years, concerning various topics, but always for the reason that you're feeling unheard and unappreciated. I dunno if you want to take a look at that pattern in yourself, but there it is.
 
Last edited:

Magdlyn

Well-known member
We're still struggling mightily with Covid 19 in Massachusetts.

Yesterday the local TV news said that the central MA city of Worcester will peak on Friday.

I also heard that a Walmart in Worcester tested all its employees early last week. Of 391 employees, 81 tested positive for Covid! The store closed Wednesday and has not opened yet. It's been deep cleaned twice and the store itself is being tested. All employees will now be required to wear masks, when they reopen.

Masks are now required on the streets of Boston and Somerville. I'm not sure about Cambridge.
 

vinsanity0

Active member
Masks are required to enter any business here. Our idiot Governor is opening up most of Florida, but not down here.

It amazes me that people are protesting against precautions. I'm wondering about the psychology behind and that.
 

FallenAngelina

Active member
It amazes me that people are protesting against precautions. I'm wondering about the psychology behind and that.
They are really just campaign season political rallies in support of Trump since actual political rallies are not allowed right now. The protest cries to let people return to work echo the statements from Trump that everything is fine, or getting better or returning to normal or going to be economically even better than before. They are rallies in support of Trump's message that this crisis is not so bad and that "the best economy that the world has ever seen" will soon be back in full swing. The healthy economy was the main reason Trump was a shoe-in in November, so Trump and his fans are rabid to get that going again. Without a "best" economy to take credit for, Trump doesn't have many reasons for people to vote for him now that there's no demon Democrat to vote against. The worst he can say about Joe Biden is to call him Sleepy Joe. Joe Biden doesn't enrage the hate voters or get them out to the polls like the last Democratic candidate did. Trump really needs to get this economy back in fighting shape and soon. Hence, the "protesters."
 
Last edited:

vinsanity0

Active member
It would be hilarious to show up at one of those things with a MAGA face mask.

Well I saw a pic of someone all decked out in a mask, gloves, and ppe clothing holding a sign that said Covid-19 is a hoax. What were they thinking? "They told me to show up and protest this hoax, but just in case..."
 

vinsanity0

Active member
They are really just campaign season political rallies in support of Trump since actual political rallies are not allowed right now. The protest cries to let people return to work echo the statements from Trump that everything is fine, or getting better or returning to normal or going to be economically even better than before. They are rallies in support of Trump's message that this crisis is not so bad and that "the best economy that the world has ever seen" will soon be back in full swing. The healthy economy was the main reason Trump was a shoe-in in November, so Trump and his fans are rabid to get that going again. Without a "best" economy to take credit for, Trump doesn't have many reasons for people to vote for him now that there's no demon Democrat to vote against. The worst he can say about Joe Biden is to call him Sleepy Joe. Joe Biden doesn't enrage the hate voters or get them out to the polls like the last Democratic candidate did. Trump really needs to get this economy back in fighting shape and soon. Hence, the "protesters."

Okay, so a final act of desperation. I guess I can see that.
 

River

New member
For me, this topic is interesting and engaging, but it's not something I feel emotionally attached to. If it's upsetting to you, then perhaps disengagement is wise at this point. However, if I may point out: You've left in upset several times from this forum over the years, concerning various topics, but always for the reason that you're feeling unheard and unappreciated. I dunno if you want to take a look at that pattern in yourself, but there it is.

I'm quite aware of it, thanks. I don't like it. But it's a fact of my existence. Most folks aren't holistic thinkers with breadth and depth of perspective on the topics I study. Just like most people aren't medical doctors or biologists. So it's something I have to live with. Most folks don't know we're already in a Great Depression and that food access is going to be a major problem in the near future. But some of us do. We will not be well prepared. That's just how it is.

The problem is not that I'm "unheard". The problem is that some folks simply can't hear what I have to say, since they lack the requisite holistic / systems perspective. Most folks make things simpler in their minds in order to "understand" them. But to really understand things we have to meet them on the level of complexity in which they exist, not simplify them in order to pretend to understand.

Give it a few months and you will see that my crystal ball works just fine. But it may not be months. It may be only a few weeks. The precise time frame in which we all realize that enormous economic hardship has struck is uncertain. It will be soon-ish, though. That is for sure.
 

ref2018

Member
The problem is not that I'm "unheard". The problem is that some folks simply can't hear what I have to say, since they lack the requisite holistic / systems perspective. Most folks make things simpler in their minds in order to "understand" them. But to really understand things we have to meet them on the level of complexity in which they exist, not simplify them in order to pretend to understand.

Maybe you could help those of us who would like to become less ignorant have a productive conversation by linking us to some of the books and/or articles you have written during your career, and that way you wouldn't need to waste your energy explaining it to people here who are too simple in the mind to understand, and those of us who are intelligent enough could then engage with you at the level of complexity upon which you exist, without pretense, for the good of all.

Amen.
 

River

New member
One can be a very good, serious and competent student of an interdisciplinary (or transdisciplinary) field of study without having published much in that field. That would be me. I've been preparing to publish … for years. I'm an "outsider" -- an independent scholar working in human ecology as it intersects with such fields of inquiry as ecological design, food production, economics, history, philosophy, psychology, etc. So I do wear a few hats. And I can make sense of stuff like this:

https://youtu.be/c1iAOK1aucY

Unemployment is off the charts, you see. And little is likely to change this trend in any near term scenario which does not involve pixies riding wing-flapping rainbow unicorns from the fifth dimension pooping magical sparkling skittles on our towns and cities, farms and fields.

Of course, the Fed can print a lot of monopoly money and fly over and drop it on us, but even that "solution" is likely to have less than perfectly desirable consequences.

I don't think you need to have published anything to be competent in understanding what I have just said. But you will need to have read a lot of stuff and paid a lot of attention to the sorts of things I keep my eyes on.

I'm also a community organizer, which is what I'm doing these days instead of writing and publishing books and articles. That's because organizing is at least as important as publishing might ever be.
 
Last edited:

FallenAngelina

Active member
Unemployment is off the charts, you see. And little is likely to change this trend in any near term scenario which does not involve pixies riding wing-flapping rainbow unicorns from the fifth dimension pooping magical sparkling skittles on our towns and cities, farms and fields.
Either pixies or state governors giving the go-ahead to open our state economy valves again and get back to work.



Give it a few months and you will see that my crystal ball works just fine. But it may not be months. It may be only a few weeks. The precise time frame in which we all realize that enormous economic hardship has struck is uncertain. It will be soon-ish, though. That is for sure.
I'm not sure what the exact criteria is for a "Great Depression," but i'm pretty sure that when a country is in one, most people agree that it's happening. If this supposed Great Depression is anything like the last one 90 years ago, you'd be hard pressed to find one person arguing against the fact, let alone running into pervasive ignoramus blow back. Originally you said that we'd be scrambling for veggies by July. Now we're going to be hurting for sure in a few months. So should I check beck with you in July or August or shall we give it to September? By September, we will be seeing evidence of this massive food shortage on our grocery stores shelves?
 

vinsanity0

Active member
I really don't have a good feeling about this plan to re-open everything. I know this isn't a movie, but this plot has been played out a hundred times. People in charge making decisions based on greed and the retention of power. Art imitates life.
 
This is a handy summary of UK rules:

Stolen from Big G.

I think I’ve worked it out...

* 4 year olds can go to school, but university students who have paid for the tuition they haven’t had and the accommodation they aren’t living in, can’t go to university.

* A teacher can go to school with many 4 year olds that they are not related to, but can’t see one 4 year old that they are related to.

* You can sit in a park, but not tomorrow or Tuesday but by Wednesday that’ll be fine.

* You can meet one person from another household for a chat or to sunbathe, but not two people so if you know two people from another household you have to pick your favourite. Hopefully, you’re also their favourite person from your household or this could be awkward. But possibly you’re not. But as I can’t go closer than 2m to the one you choose anyway you wouldn’t think having the other one sat next to them would matter - unless two people would restrict your eyeline too much and prevent you from being alert.

* You can work all day with your colleagues, but you can’t sit in their garden for a chat after work.

* You can now do unlimited exercise when quite frankly just doing an hour a day feels like you are some kind of fitness guru. I can think of lots of things that I would like to be unlimited but exercise definitely isn’t one of them.

* You can drive to other destinations, although which destinations is unclear.

* The buses are still running past your house, but you shouldn’t get on one. We should just let empty buses drive around so bus drivers aren’t doing nothing.

* It will soon be time to quarantine people coming into the country by air... but not yet. It’s too soon. And not ever if you’re coming from France because... well, I don’t know why, actually. Because the French version of coronavirus wouldn’t come to the UK maybe.

* Our youngest children go back to school first because... they are notoriously good at not touching things they shouldn’t, maintain personal space at all times and never randomly lick you.

* We are somewhere in between 3.5 and 4.5 on a five point scale where 5 is all of the virus and 1 is none of the virus but 2,3 and 4 can be anything you’d like it to be really. Some of the virus? A bit of the virus? Just enough virus to see off those over 70s who were told to self isolate but now we’ve realised that they’ve done that a bit too well despite us offloading coronavirus patients into care homes and now we are claiming that was never said in the first place, even though it’s in writing in the stay at home guidance.

* The slogan isn’t stay at home any more, so we don’t have to stay at home. Except we do. Unless we can’t. In which case we should go out. But there will be fines if we break the rules. So don’t do that.

Don’t forget...

Stay alert... which Robert Jenrick has explained actually means Stay home as much as possible. Obviously.

Control the virus. Well, I can’t even control my dogs and I can actually see them. Plus I know a bit about dogs and very little about controlling viruses.

Save lives. Always preferable to not saving lives, I’d say, so I’ll try my best with that one, although hopefully I don’t need telling to do that. I know I’m bragging now but not NOT saving lives is something I do every day.

So there you are. If you’re the weirdo wanting unlimited exercise then enjoy. But not until Wednesday. Obviously.0
 
Top