Discussion on Forum Sociology and Interpersonal Dynamics

[NeonKaos]

But then you create the dreaded, everyone is equal. This may create jealousy with your followers who want you to love them more haha

They all dislike me equally too. We have an egalitarian hegemony.

i think it is a waste of time to argue this issue in rebuttal after rebuttal without a clear list of suggestions in the form of actions that all people on this forum could take.

this this this!!!!

So - can I suggest to the mods to move this under the thread for forum suggestions ONLY if we can all attempt to do this in a clearer, more efficient way? Please?

That I feel would be progress.

RS

Done. It's been added to the "Suggestions and feedback" thread.

Oh, and redsirenn, sugar pie? It's "hijack", not "hyjack". Are you ok with me telling you that, hon?

I'm JUST KIDDING around. I think rs can handle it!

 

[AutumnalTone]

Again - the hyjacking of this thread is, I feel, a bit disrespectful. The repetition about this topic is not efficient and personally gives me a headache. It also makes me feel like what is the fucking point of pointing something out - thus feeling a bit unwelcome myself.

So - can I suggest to the mods to move this under the thread for forum suggestions ONLY if we can all attempt to do this in a clearer, more efficient way? Please?

YGirl appears to be complicit in the hijacking of the thread, so I'll leave it up to her as to whether to break it apart into separate threads.

 

[NeonKaos]

YGirl appears to be complicit in the hijacking of the thread, so I'll leave it up to her as to whether to break it apart into separate threads.

At some point, we may attempt to compartmentalize posts from this thread. For the time being, it is viable to let things progress naturally.

With that in mind, I'm off to the campsite for the weekend. Anyone who is friends with me on Fakebook has my cell phone number, and it gets a good signal at the camp, so feel free to contact me if anything needs to be imploded.

 

[redpepper]

The repetition about this topic is not efficient and personally gives me a headache. It also makes me feel like what is the fucking point of pointing something out - thus feeling a bit unwelcome myself.

So - can I suggest to the mods to move this under the thread for forum suggestions ONLY if we can all attempt to do this in a clearer, more efficient way? Please?

That I feel would be progress.

RS

This is what I am saying here. What makes people stop talking or engaging in a thread is that they aren't interested, or they get their back up and don't see the point. Thank you, redsiren,n for giving me an example. Sorry you are legitimately getting a headache from all of this

As for moving these particular posts from here to "Suggestions," I'm all for it. I think that is a better place for it. It's up to Ygirl though, as it's her thread and she can mod it herself, anyway. (Besides, she is better at it than me.) Oop, she's done it... (having read ahead).

My "take" on it is that the "People Who Leave" are friends or acquaintances of Ceoli, either in real life, on other online venues, or both. For some reason, They would rather not use their own voices to speak Their minds, but instead are content to have Ceoli be Their mouthpiece. I believe in speaking up for those who CANNOT speak for themselves (such as abused children and animals), not those who CHOOSE not to speak for themselves (such as grown, presumably literate, humans with access to the internet).

Yeah, I think that some of the issue is that some people came here, didn't like what people said to them, didn't like that some people objected to their approach, left in a huff and decided to badmouth a forum that didn't suit their needs when it clearly suits others.. Why they can't leave that alone and find their own peeps to hang with, all with a "Meh, they are doing fine and so are we" kind of attitude, I don't know...

I wonder if they are used to a certain type/style of expression, and a poly within that? There is a large mix of people here that challenge a person that engages in certain activities just by telling their own story. Perhaps they decided to remove themselves and chalk us up to being exclusive because of their own discomfort in getting to know something different to their reality; rather than looking at their own exclusivity and being curious about others?

I wonder if perhaps it's more to do with a type of individual who enjoys this forum or not, rather than about exclusivity and marginalization.

I admire your tenacity, Ceoli, if in fact Ygirl is right. I think it's great that you attempt to make the world a better place for those who struggle to speak for themselves, grown-ups (etc.) or not.

I find it a shame however, and again, if what Ygirl says is true, that instead of advocating for them to expand their minds and reach out to see what is out there in the poly world, you have chosen to close your own and continue to pursue a goal that is just as exclusive and marginalizing as you think we all are.

I thought everyone should know that I do in fact judge people. You know I mean it because I didn't put the word "judge" in quotes. Well, yes, I did just there, but not before...

I agree, I think we all judge. It's human nature to do so. It helps us find our place in the world. By judging we create our own self-worth and self-esteem.

What needs to happen next, I think, is to consider what we do with that judgment. I think we owe it to the world as a whole to work towards it being a better place. For me, doing that means taking my judgment, looking at every aspect of it, pulling it apart and then creating acceptance and admiration for differences.

This is a long process sometimes. It's not always evident that I am there yet, but I am consciously aware that I am going through this process and ask for patience to get there. We have a whole lifetime of this kind of process, I think. There is no rush, and I think it should always be respected that others are going through it too.

YGirl, I have found that you are judgmental, but I also find that you get to the same place I do, perhaps by the same means, perhaps not, but you get there.... I am warmed to you for that reason.

I'm off to the campsite for the weekend. Anyone who is friends with me on Fakebook has my cell phone number, and it gets a good signal at the camp, so feel free to contact me if anything needs to be imploded.

Have fun!

 

[jkelly]

This is a busy thread!

What is it about these people that is so offensive to some that they feel they can't bear talking to them? Is it that we are supposed to be in some way sorry? That we should in some way admit we are privileged and step aside? I don't get it.

I don't think it's quite so straightforward as that. But yeah, there are offensive things, and there are things we should be sorry about, and there are also probably times when people should step aside.

Sometimes someone says something that I genuinely find offensive. I might say "Hey, that's offensive," or I might not. I'm not offended by the fact that people who disagree with me exist! I'm offended by something in particular that was expressed. Now, if someone were to come around here and say a bunch of really weird, nasty things about poly people, I'd get a lot of support for saying, "Hey, that's offensive!" Right?

But that's not always the case. People can say a bunch of really weird, nasty things about other groups of people, and I wouldn't get a lot of support for saying "Hey, that's offensive!" I think that's obvious, but maybe I need examples here? I'm worried that examples would get in the way, because then we'd get into a discussion about whether saying any particular weird, nasty thing was "actually" offensive or not.

So, yes, sometimes people should be sorry. For instance, I'm sorry that I made some weird prejudicial comments about couples opening up a mono-relationship. I think YGirl should be sorry for making some weird prejudicial comments about people who work as strippers. But, sorry or not, we all have dumb prejudicial ideas that we express from time to time, and that's not a huge problem, as long as they don't just go unchallenged. When they do go unchallenged, the environment becomes one in which those groups of people are going to feel alienated and unwelcome.

Which leads me to the stepping aside thing. Remember when you and I were first talking about the issue about younger poly-people being marginalised? One of the better things to come out of that conversation was the idea that people who feel marginalised should be deliberately encouraged to have their voices listened to, whether that be through actively setting up a space to discuss their concerns the way you did in your community, or through encouraging them in leadership, as I suggested. Sometimes doing that means deliberately cultivating some uncomfortable dissenting voices, and sometimes it means just, you know, listening for a while (or "stepping aside"), instead of using the social capital we have to shut down the conversations.

... firmly comfortable in their belief that poly-fi relationships are working for them

Incidentally, I thought it was odd that poly-fi people got lumped into the 'well-represented' camp, since I haven't experienced a lot of poly-fi people speaking up here. (In fact, here's a thread where a poly-fi person is expressing that they feel like a minority n this forum.)

 

[jkelly]

The way I have understood the criticism(s) is that it ought to be acceptable to say "Fuck you, JKelly, and the high horse you rode in on", and that is still supposed to foster a "welcoming" and "inclusive" atmosphere.

Well, for the record, I'd like to think I'd respond reasonably well to someone saying that. I'll grant that if a bunch of people with fancy forum titles all said it together, though, I'd probably feel more unwelcome.

Erm... that's not to suggest that fancy forum titles are a problem. I was just using that as shorthand for people who have more social capital than other people.

Anyway, I'm not all that clear about the 'politeness' aspect of this conversation. I get that you and Ceoli think that there's something about politeness that's important to the discussion, but I'll admit that I'm missing out on what's going on with that.

Again, I am hard pressed to understand why you, Ceoli, myself, and others are able to manage this just fine when it comes to our interactions on here, yet these "people who leave" only send their disenchantment over here by proxy.

Not to speak for Ceoli, but it's not clear to me that she's "manage[d] just fine," as she's expressed some pretty serious ambivalence about participating. In case anyone's confused about it, I think that's troublesome, because I think she's a particularly valuable contributor.

I'm loathe to speculate about what you, Ceoli and I have in common, as I don't really know either of the two of you.

I don't have any contact with any "people who leave;" my questioning is more about why this forum bears so little resemblance to my experience, or the offline poly communities I'm familiar with, why it's rough on people who don't quite fit in, and about the lack of diversity I perceive in it. To be honest, I'd be hesitant to recommend this forum to poly newbies I meet, and I think that's disappointing. Of course, that opens up the question of why I'm hesitant, and I'm not entirely clear on how to answer that, other than that it doesn't bear much resemblance to my experience, etc.

 

[Ilove2men]

Coming out of lurker mode-- maybe it would help to know who exactly is feeling excluded. We can't actually ask those who left and have not spoken up for their reasons why. We could have an "I have left the building and here's why" thread, but I can see that easily turning into a conflict thread, when someone is leaving because of specific members. Maybe Ceoli can shed some light by listing those who she thinks are feeling excluded or unwelcomed. Maybe a welcome thread with a well-written original post could help for the welcoming part, but that's kind of what the introductions are about, no?

 

[redpepper]

Yeah, sometimes its important to step aside and listen. I get that, jkelly. If someone is not getting that, though, should it not be that others then suggest they step aside, in the spirit of honesty and openness, that is? Or is it not worth that much to people that they bother? After all, people come and go on here all the time. Why would anyone bother reminding others that they might learn something if they step aside when there will be a whole new load of people in a week or so?

Besides, should we not also expect the same thing, for people to step aside for us? Maybe those who need others to step aside should also ask for that too. I can see that people who come here might not always feel listened to. HMA certainly didn't. I know I haven't listened before, especially when I've felt like I've had my back against a wall. Maybe I need a thicker skin in those instances. Probably. I know several people who would agree to that, actually. Interesting! Thanks for giving me something to think about, jkelly!

I don't really recommend this forum to others either. I think most people don't want to talk about their stuff on the whole. At the very most, it seems they prefer to talk with others in person. They just muddle through, and stuff happens or it doesn't. People more often than not just want to live life rather than analyse it and discuss it with others, it seems. Imagine how many poly people are out there if we poly people who like to talk about stuff are just a small drop in the pan.

 

[Karma]

My take, as a very blunt person myself (even my friends tell me I'm an asshole at times)--

If people can't handle the blunt, non-sugarcoated truth, fuck 'em. That's their issue and their inability to deal with reality, either the reality of the situation, or the reality that the actions they are taking are portraying them in that particular light.

None of that is your fault. Some people are too weak to be able to deal with the truth without safety gloves and training wheels. The rest of us are what I like to refer to as 'adults.'

 

[Ceoli]

But, sorry or not, we all have dumb prejudicial ideas that we express from time to time, and that's not a huge problem as long as they don't just go unchallenged. When they do go unchallenged, the environment becomes one in which those groups of people are going to feel alienated and unwelcome.

This sums it up very nicely. Thank you, jkelly, for articulating my view so well and for bringing this conversation right into the issues at hand without being personal.

This generally feels like place that prefers prejudicial and marginalizing statements go unchallenged in order to create a safe-feeling space. What tends to happen here is that when prejudicial statements do get challenged, it is often met with a whole lot of resistance and unnecessary drama. This can sometimes make it seem like the choice is to let such statements of prejudice go unchallenged or beat one's head against a wall. People who feel on the other side of those prejudicial statements tend to get extra signals that when they are feeling marginalized, it's not a legitimate feeling to have. Jkelly has offered some great insights about how that works and how people can shift how they see such challenges. This is the overprotectiveness I was referring to in my quote that FormerUnicorn posted on this thread.

There are all sorts of statements in this thread speaking to what my motivations are, how bitter I am, the fact that I bring this up over and over again (I brought this up in one other thread-- a thread by a person who left that was about this very topic). I continued to discuss it in that thread for as long as people were discussing it. I raised it again in this thread only as a response to a statement that I felt wasn't encompassing the whole picture. I felt it important to acknowledge that the safe little bubble of trust that people have been working to build here does have a cost. I prefer to examine that for the sake of being able to expand that bubble.

For the person who has decided that it's a bunch of personal friends of mine that I'm referring to when I talk about people who have left the forum, I have one personal friend who left the forum and she didn't leave because she felt marginalized. She left because she felt it was useless to have these kinds of conversations with people who continually resist them. In other words, she chose to not bother beating her head against a wall. I certainly took a break from it myself. The other people I know of that no longer post here are people who I got to know through the forum but have never personally met. Some of them I am still in touch with. They did feel marginalized by the culture of this forum.

I find it interesting that there is some direction in this thread to make this about me rather than about the issues I'm raising. This is another example of how one can marginalize others when they bring up issues. Personally, such things do not make me want to leave. While they can be frustrating and ridiculous, I choose to not let such things affect my choice to post here or not. However, I can see how this would make someone feel unwelcome, or at least their point of view to feel unwelcome.

I had to think twice about posting my perspective and how I honestly felt, because I was pretty sure that it would be met with resistance, dismissal, frustration, exasperation, speculations about my "agenda," lots of questioning of my motives and the legitimacy of my point of view on the part of many replies. I thought twice, not because I felt that my views should be unchallenged, but because I sensed that my views would be unwelcome.

Sometimes doing that means deliberately cultivating some uncomfortable dissenting voices, and sometimes it means just, you know, listening for a while (or "stepping aside"), instead of using the social capital we have to shut down the conversations.

I feel this is the crux of the conversation. It could very well be that this would prefer to be a community that doesn't cultivate uncomfortable dissenting voices. It may have a limited tolerance for them, but my general sense is that this community tends to value these voices not being there.

 

[anotherbo]

I'm a very new member here, and the last thing I would want to do (or be able to do ) is marginalize anybody. And I'm hoping to say the following without getting into a brawl.

Ceoli: On some of your earlier posts in this thread, the bitter and attacking tone (as it seemed to me) made it hard for me to swallow your admittedly interesting and useful points. In contrast, your last post made it very easy for me to absorb and agree with things you were saying.

I am a person who really enjoys talking about hard, devisive issues, personal as well as political, religious, etc. But I've found that if I am not careful to use a non-threatening tone, I often end up in a fight, when what I really wanted was a discussion.

When people say "I tell it like it is!" I often feel they'd be more accurate to say, "Sometimes I just like to let somebody have it in the face... if I have something useful to say while doing so, it makes it easier to feel good about it."

So to me, "tone" is more about how to get what you want. If you're looking for a discussion, don't use your points to attack someone. If you're looking for a fight, fire away.

Side note: I particularly love when people call others a wimp for sugarcoating, or not wanting to take their medicine straight. Though I sugercoat often, and would prefer to be addressed with respect, I personally love a fight, with words or fists. I haven't struck anyone in anger in nearly 2 decades, but I can still remember from high school and college the amazingly satisfying feel of landing a devastating blow on somebody who is trying to beat the shit out of you.

The reason I seldom fight like that now is the same reason I'm not interested nowadays in casual sex: it sidetracks me, and makes it harder to get the things I really want, out of a discussion or relationship.

Not to judge anybody who DOES just want a fight, or a quick fuck: I've been there, and I won't be surprised if I'm there again sometime in the future.

Anotherbo

P.S. I also thought that quote by Jkelly was a great summation.

 

[Ceoli]

Ceoli: On some of your earlier posts in this thread, the bitter and attacking tone (as it seemed to me) made it hard for me to swallow your admittedly interesting and useful points. In contrast, your last post made it very easy for me to absorb and agree with things you were saying.

I would say that my first two posts about this were pretty frank. I can see how that can be read as bitter and attacking, but that was not the sentiment I was posting from. I just felt the need to be absolutely clear about my view on it. Having been around the block on this topic, I probably skipped right to that frank tone because I suspected that it wouldn't be listened to anyway. Either way, I'm posting from my point of view and perspective, which is an earned perspective. However, when replies started to be about me, my agenda and my hatefulness, I'm sure that additionally steered the tone.

There are plenty of people who have expressed dislike for my tone in general on this forum. Having different preferences for how people like to hear things is perfectly reasonable. However, there are many times when that dislike of tone includes a certain pressure to be silent. I generally don't allow myself to be silenced by that, which probably causes frustration on all ends. But it runs counter to my values to edit my communication to be less authentic than it is.

Just a few musings about concern over my tone. No real conclusions there.

 

[redpepper]

Incidentally, I thought it was odd that poly-fi people got lumped into the 'well-represented' camp, since I haven't experienced a lot of poly-fi people speaking up here. (In fact, here's a thread where a poly-fi person is expressing that they feel like a minority on this forum.)

I am trying to say that that is the assumption rather than what actually is. I agree, there are not a lot of strictly poly-fi people on here. There are some that practice poly-fi with certain relationships, but I haven't known many to be completely fluid bonded in a poly-fi situation.

My take, as a very blunt person myself (even my friends tell me I'm an asshole at times)--

If people can't handle the blunt, non-sugarcoated truth, fuck 'em. That's their issue and their inability to deal with reality, either the reality of the situation, or the reality that the actions they are taking are portraying them in that particular light.

None of that is your fault. Some people are too weak to be able to deal with the truth without safety gloves and training wheels. The rest of us are what I like to refer to as 'adults.'

Yet, asshole that your friends claim you to be, I can still swallow what you say to me personally and be your friend, I think because you show vulnerability and feeling in what you say. Yes, you get pissed off, and are blunt, but you show your humanness in that you show that you also are not perfect. Thank you for that. *hugs*

 

[Ilove2men]

We have actually settled into a completely poly-fi relationship. So there's at least one set.

 

[Karma]

Thanks, redpepper. It's been a rough night. That made me smile.

 

[Breathesgirl]

You know, there are many different reasons for people to leave groups and fora, it didn't meet their needs being the top one, IMO. The mods/owners couldn't/wouldn't step in and fix a problem before OR after a thread became a full-blown pissing match. I left a yahell group for this reason. They no longer have the time to give it the attention they feel it needs.

It doesn't have to be all about whether a person, or persons, was being mean to them, perceived exclusionism, etc., etc.

How did this get to be about why people leave fora any way? I thought this was a place to vent if we felt YGirl stepped out of line in a post instead of hijacking the post in question.

That said, if I feel that someone has stepped out of line, was mean in what they said, or if I question the meaning or intent behind their words, I PM them, ask what's going on, if I'm reading the words correctly. Let's face it, the written word is a wonderful thing, but it is very limited, because we can only see the words. We can't see the facial expressions and body language, or hear the tone of voice, in order to accurately decipher what was truly meant by those words.

 

[NeonKaos]

I think Ygirl should be sorry for making some weird prejudicial comments about people who work as strippers. But, sorry or not, we all have dumb prejudicial ideas that we express from time to time, and that's not a huge problem as long as they don't just go unchallenged. When they do go unchallenged, the environment becomes one in which those groups of people are going to feel alienated and unwelcome.

These were not "weird prejudicial comments". They were empirical observations. I have known strippers with drug problems and strippers without drug problems. I have worked for "escort services". I know what kind of money strippers are capable of making. I happen to have a little more experience in these areas than I care to go into detail about. I never said that "all people who work as strippers are a certain way." Here is what I said:

That reminds me - strippers make pretty good money. Something doesn't make sense with three strippers living in the same house and "finances" are an issue. Furthermore, there are plenty of places in Las Vegas that cost like $100 a week for short-term housing. Strippers make that much in one HOUR.

What is wrong with this picture? What are you folks REALLY in denial about? If I had to go out on a limb, I would suspect that someone has a drug problem.

If you're taking off your clothes for FREE while people watch, you are not a "stripper", you are an "exhibitionist". "Stripper" is a JOB DESCRIPTION, JOBS pay MONEY. If you do something for FUN, it's a HOBBY, not a JOB.

Sorry, I'm NOT sorry. I still mean it.

ETA: I am sorry I ever responded to HMA's thread at ALL, since it was obviously intended to solicit validation, not "ideas".

 

[NeonKaos]

For the person who has decided that it's a bunch of personal friends of mine that I'm referring to when I talk about people who have left the forum, I have one personal friend who left the forum and she didn't leave because she felt marginalized. She left because she felt it was useless to have these kinds of conversations with people who continually resist them. In other words, she chose to not bother beating her head against a wall. I certainly took a break from it myself. The other people I know of that no longer post here are people who I got to know through the forum but have never personally met. Some of them I am still in touch with. They did feel marginalized by the culture of this forum.

I'm "the person who has decided" that. This is what I said:

My "take" on it is that the "People Who Leave" are friends or acquaintances of Ceoli, either in real life, on other online venues, or both. For some reason, They would rather not use their own voices to speak Their minds, but instead are content to have Ceoli be Their mouthpiece.

Please explain to me how what I said is any different from what you said. I have highlighted in color the similarities. You basically just repeated back what I said, putting a different spin on it. All I did differently than what you did is that I didn't draw a distinction in my post between "People Who Leave" for one reason versus "People Who Leave" for another reason.

And before you get on me about the last sentence in that quote - ALL IT SAYS is that they are "content" to let you do all the talking. NOWHERE does it ASSume that they ASKED you to speak on their behalf.

 

[NeonKaos]

How did this get to be about why people leave fora any way? I thought this was a place to vent if we felt Ygirl stepped out of line in a post instead of hijacking the post in question.

A tangent got started because of something I said, and I have decided that it is worthwhile to have this discussion, and that is is not counter-productive to the original stated purpose of the thread.

I feel that by starting a thread and inviting criticism on myself personally, that this is like inviting people into my back-yard to chat around a bonfire. Since an online venue will not result in physical injury or collateral damage, or any other eventuality that might result in the police getting involved and/or criminal charges being filed, some of the reservations I might have about ACTUALLY inviting a bunch of strangers onto my property in Real Life are irrelevant here.

Again, all I ask is that if you say "Fuck you", please give us something to work with in addition to that.. Telling me "Fuck you" just for the hell of it - congratulations, I'm real happy for you, using big words and shit - by itself doesn't accomplish anything.

 

[NeonKaos]

Not to speak for Ceoli, but it's not clear to me that she's "manage[d] just fine", as she's expressed some pretty serious ambivalence about participating. In case anyone's confused about it, I think that's troublesome, because I think she's a particularly valuable contributor.

When I said "just fine" I meant that she is quite capable of articulating her views without any help from the rest of us. I am not "confused" by that; I, too think she is a valuable contributor. I am also proud to consider her my friend, and I will go out on a limb and say that I suspect the feeling is mutual.