Double standard

[Farmgirl]

A few years back I had an affair and ended up telling my husband about it. I stopped the affair and we worked on our relationship. Eventually my husband started telling me we should put me on a dating site and try an open relationship. I resisted at first, but eventually said OK to it. After all, it had been fun being with someone else. My husband works in the entertainment industry and meets girls 15+ years younger than me ALL the time, that are always hitting on him. I got to a point a long time ago where I simply didn't let it bother me so much.
So, we create a thing for me on a dating site and I have all these guys messaging me. I rarely get on it and go through all the messages, but my husband gets on all the time and talks to men on my behalf. In 2 years of being on the site I met 3 or 4 people. Went to coffee or a lunch and that was it. Nothing ever came of it. Finally, the last guy I met, I had a connection with. After talking to my husband I made plans and moved forward to a more intimate date. But, after that date my husband was mean and threatening to bring women to our home, while I'm out of town with the kids. We have a rule about not bringing anyone to the house. Another rule that he made was that we couldn't do overnights or trips with whoever we were seeing. And just coffee/lunch dates or hotel for a couple hours.
I was supposed to leave tonight on a trip, but I needed sleep before driving so postponed it till tomorrow morning. I knew that he went on a date earlier today with a young lady, a date that already was going to be longer than his rule for length as they were going to a festival with his employees no less. He went at noon and its now almost midnight. I assume he's staying with her all night. He doesn't know that I haven't left yet. While of course I feel some jealousy, I'm not enraged like he was about me going out with my friend. But, I am frustrated about the complete and utter double standard. How do I approach this? I'd love to be able to go to a town a couple hours away for an overnight with my friend. But hubby will for sure say no. Yet, its seemingly OK for him to be with his friend all night and flaunt it at that
Very very few of my friends are even aware of our arrangement, in fact I think only 3 of them know anything. And none of them even know that I now have someone I've started seeing. Any suggestions on how we proceed. Still extremely new to this.

 

[FallenAngelina]

... I am frustrated about the complete and utter double standard. How do I approach this? I'd love to be able to go to a town a couple hours away for an overnight with my friend. But hubby will for sure say no. Yet, its seemingly OK for him to be with his friend all night and flaunt it at that.

I wouldn't say this is a double standard because there is no standard between you two. You're still finding your way. This is a situation in which neither of you is being fully honest with the other out of fear that honesty would disrupt the marital relationship. Don't get all balled up in the thinking that he is doing this 'n that while you are unable to do this 'n that. Focus on clarifying for yourself what you want, what works for you - and then on communicating that to him. Encourage him to focus on the same. Right now, both of you are trying to manage and control outcomes (trace elements of co-dependence here) instead of operating in honesty and allowing things to unfold. People do this because it can be frightening to step back from control (all of your rules, for example,) be honest and just allow things to evolve naturally. You're experiencing what happens when couples try to maintain control over the evolution of the marriage relationship while opening up because a more open relationship is all about each partner individually exploring freedom. The only way to navigate this with emotional intimacy intact is via honesty. Otherwise, you have affairs and secret overnights and secret longings for overnights. This situation is nobody's fault - you created it together - so don't seek out blame or adopt double standard thinking (which only keeps you feeling disempowered.) Move toward honesty and begin with yourself.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry you struggle.

FWIW, this is what pops up to me.

A few years back I had an affair and ended up telling my husband about it. I stopped the affair and we worked on our relationship.

What work? And how do you know you are done doing it?

Eventually my husband started telling me we should put me on a dating site and try an open relationship.

Why? For what purpose?

To get you going first because really HE wants to?

I resisted at first, but eventually said OK to it. After all, it had been fun being with someone else.

I could be wrong in my impression here. But is this how it works at your house?

He pesters/bullies to get his way, you give in to get him to shut up and stop pestering/bullying? Then you rationalize the decision like "Oh well..."

Was it fun to be with someone else because they didn't pester/bully you? Or hover around?

So, we create a thing for me on a dating site and I have all these guys messaging me. I rarely get on it and go through all the messages, but my husband gets on all the time and talks to men on my behalf.

Again... why? For what purpose?

It is your account. Why's he on it all the time responding?

If that gets him off, why not call it HIS account where he pretends to be a woman? Or his account where he gets to feel like he has a hot wife everyone else wants? And that is the purpose. Not for you to actually "date for real."

If it is YOUR account for you to actually use to date? Why does he have the password and access? Why aren't you telling him NOT to respond for you? That you will speak for yourself?

To me this is poor boundaries. So perhaps he thinks he's "in charge" of your dating life now. He plays with the account to set up coffee dates for you that he approves. Not for you to DATE date but to get him off.

After talking to my husband I made plans and moved forward to a more intimate date. But, after that date my husband was mean and threatening to bring women to our home, while I'm out of town with the kids.

What is "intimate" mean? Hotel for a couple hours? Were you in keeping with the current agreements? Sounds like you were.

I notice YOU made the plans on that one. Not husband.

Is that why he's being mean?

• Because he's not "in charge" of your dating this time? You went "off script?"
  
• Because of unhealed cheating things?
  
• Because he's just mean?
  
• A combo or all the above? Something else?

We have a rule about not bringing anyone to the house. Another rule that he made was that we couldn't do overnights or trips with whoever we were seeing. And just coffee/lunch dates or hotel for a couple hours.

What you call "rules" I call "agreements." I assume the agreements apply to both sides. Do they?

You say "another rule he made." Is that how it works here? He doesn't suggest ideas for you both to consider and then actually agree to. He makes the rules and you are expected to obey?

You do not feel able to say "Well, you suggest X. I do not agree" or "Well, you suggest X. I cannot agree like that. If it was more like Y, then ok. That I can work with" in these talks without him having a cow?

Another thought...

Because you were the cheating partner before... do you agree to things that don't really fit you to help "make up" for the cheating? Do you give up too much privacy (like him being able to get in your online dating account) to prove you are not cheating again? Do you "give in" and agree to whatever rules without really considering them?

Because while cheating is not a good thing to do? It's not jail. And even in jail time, people serve the time and then are released. They have paid their debt to society and they can try to start again from a clean slate.

Have you done your time? Are you getting a clean slate now? Or does he throw it back in your face or use it as a weapon? Like "Well YOU cheated, so I am gonna do X and you cannot stop me" or similar?

But, I am frustrated about the complete and utter double standard. How do I approach this? I'd love to be able to go to a town a couple hours away for an overnight with my friend. But hubby will for sure say no.

I think you could say "I want to renegotiate agreements to eventually include overnights and trips."

Because you might not want to overnight instantly with a new dating partner. But eventually if it gets to be more serious dating you might. So the agreements between you might have to be more realistic.

Like "Your dating money is $$. Mine is $$. We have to stick to a budget so the house bills don't get dinged. Figure out overnights from that."

or

"No overnights without checking in about childcare first. Don't just dump the kids on me. "

He doesn't know that I haven't left yet.

Yet, its seemingly OK for him to be with his friend all night and flaunt it at that

He is not flaunting it. He thought you were gone already.

If the agreement applies to both sides and not just your side.... to me it sounds like he's breaking/cheating on the agreement not to go more than a few hours on a date.

Very very few of my friends are even aware of our arrangement, in fact I think only 3 of them know anything. And none of them even know that I now have someone I've started seeing. Any suggestions on how we proceed. Still extremely new to this.

I think the bigger problem is the enraged/mean. What's that all about?

Because if you start asking for changes and he thinks it should go how HE says? The mean thing might crop back up. I am concerned that may lead to hitting. Would that be a concern for you here?

If he's not really healed from the cheating and he's a mean person?

You might decide you don't want to be doing Open with him. Because it pushes buttons he cannot handle.

Or you might not want to be doing anything with him if he's not working on his anger appropriately and it starts to crank up to other kinds of mean. You have to look out for you and the kids.

Long story short? I think you have bigger problems than his "double standard" on agreements. I would step back to reassess your whole life post cheating rather than just that one area. Get the bigger picture.

This is an opportunity to figure out why you cheated and if this is really the life you want to be doing.

Don't be down in the trees all the time. Pause to look at the forest level view. THEN go back down to tree level to select the path you really want to be on right now.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hello Farmgirl,

It sounds like you and your husband have an agreement that there will be no overnights, yet he is (what he thinks is) going behind your back and doing an overnight with this young lady. He is also openly going out with her longer, and for something more involved, than what you agreed on. So, it's these two things that are constituting a double standard. I think my advice is to go to him directly and point out that you know he has been breaking his own rules. Then suggest that those two rules (no overnights, and, just coffee/lunch dates or hotel for a couple of hours) be dissolved for both of you, if you want them to be dissolved.

Another conversation to have with your husband (perhaps at a different time) is that it is not okay for him to be mean to you when you are only abiding by the rules that he established. He wants an open relationship. If it is open for him, it should be open for you too. Also point out to him that it is not okay for him to threaten to break the rules. If he wants to dissolve a rule, that is one thing, he can come to you and ask if you would consent to dissolving the rule. Threatening to break a rule, as a way to punish you, is not okay. Tell him that.

Abiding by the rules is something both of you agree to do. If he is going to exempt himself from the rules, then the rules should be dissolved. This is my take on the situation. I hope you can get things worked out with him.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[Farmgirl]

I wouldn't say this is a double standard because there is no standard between you two. You're still finding your way. This is a situation in which neither of you is being fully honest with the other out of fear that honesty would disrupt the marital relationship. Don't get all balled up in the thinking that he is doing this 'n that while you are unable to do this 'n that. Focus on clarifying for yourself what you want, what works for you - and then on communicating that to him. Encourage him to focus on the same. Right now, both of you are trying to manage and control outcomes (trace elements of co-dependence here) instead of operating in honesty and allowing things to unfold. People do this because it can be frightening to step back from control (all of your rules, for example,) be honest and just allow things to evolve naturally. You're experiencing what happens when couples try to maintain control over the evolution of the marriage relationship while opening up because a more open relationship is all about each partner individually exploring freedom. The only way to navigate this with emotional intimacy intact is via honesty. Otherwise, you have affairs and secret overnights and secret longings for overnights. This situation is nobody's fault - you created it together - so don't seek out blame or adopt double standard thinking (which only keeps you feeling disempowered.) Move toward honesty and begin with yourself.

Thank you, you're probably right. Just new at all this and need to relax. I feel like I stay pretty relaxed about it. My husband on the other hand gets super up tight when things actually happen (for me), but calms down a day later and says to keep going with it. Just frustrating right now.

 

[Farmgirl]

I think you totally get it.
Thank you for the input.

Hello Farmgirl,

It sounds like you and your husband have an agreement that there will be no overnights, yet he is (what he thinks is) going behind your back and doing an overnight with this young lady. He is also openly going out with her longer, and for something more involved, than what you agreed on. So, it's these two things that are constituting a double standard. I think my advice is to go to him directly and point out that you know he has been breaking his own rules. Then suggest that those two rules (no overnights, and, just coffee/lunch dates or hotel for a couple of hours) be dissolved for both of you, if you want them to be dissolved.

Another conversation to have with your husband (perhaps at a different time) is that it is not okay for him to be mean to you when you are only abiding by the rules that he established. He wants an open relationship. If it is open for him, it should be open for you too. Also point out to him that it is not okay for him to threaten to break the rules. If he wants to dissolve a rule, that is one thing, he can come to you and ask if you would consent to dissolving the rule. Threatening to break a rule, as a way to punish you, is not okay. Tell him that.

Abiding by the rules is something both of you agree to do. If he is going to exempt himself from the rules, then the rules should be dissolved. This is my take on the situation. I hope you can get things worked out with him.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[Farmgirl]

You touched on so many things, I'm not sure where to begin LOL.
I should say that he actually cheated too, he just didn't consider it cheating because he didn't actually have SEX (like OMG, because it didn't go that far, it's less of something )

I'm not scared of him getting physical/hitting. He gets loud, and says mean things. But, has never laid a hand on me or the kids.

Our issues before I cheated had a lot to do with lack of attention (NO sex for over a year and maybe 2-4 times a year in the years prior), as well as generally being ignored. We have both worked on that and are much better. There is never a finished to that, it's always something that needs to be worked on and we try to do so, and have been much better. For the last couple years we've had a pretty regular & active sex life with each other too. And we make sure to go on regular dates and cook together a couple times a week, as well as other stuff.

You may be right that he gets off on the idea of people wanting me, and doesn't like it so much when someone else actually gets to have me. Yes more intimate means a hotel for a couple hours. And I think he mostly gets mean because he feels threatened in some way. He was fine when I made the arrangements to go to the hotel.

I think you're right in that he wants to maintain control of the situation. He says that its all just new for him.

I meant that he was flaunting the girl in front of his employees. I don't personally feel that it's at all appropriate that he let all his staff know that he can do what he want's and to further take that person out in front of them. Our oldest daughter works for him as well, and even though she wasn't present when he was out with the girl and around a lot of the staff, there is a good chance that it get's back to her. Although she is aware of our situation, she has asked that she not know about who either of us is seeing. And doesn't want to see any of them in his place of business. She walked in on him once in his office, right before things ended up in sex. Prior to me meeting someone. This was after we had established the rule that nothing happen at the place of work. It was one of the first things I said, aside from always practicing safe sex. And the rule was made before our daughter even worked there. Our daughter is almost 20 herself. She doesn't appreciate all her co-workers knowing what dad is doing, any more than I appreciate it. I understand some of his closer friends knowing, but the whole staff seems extreme.

I'm sorry you struggle.

FWIW, this is what pops up to me.



What work? And how do you know you are done doing it?



Why? For what purpose?

To get you going first because really HE wants to?



I could be wrong in my impression here. But is this how it works at your house?

He pesters/bullies to get his way, you give in to get him to shut up and stop pestering/bullying? Then you rationalize the decision like "Oh well..."

Was it fun to be with someone else because they didn't pester/bully you? Or hover around?



Again... why? For what purpose?

It is your account. Why's he on it all the time responding?

If that gets him off, why not call it HIS account where he pretends to be a woman? Or his account where he gets to feel like he has a hot wife everyone else wants? And that is the purpose. Not for you to actually "date for real."

If it is YOUR account for you to actually use to date? Why does he have the password and access? Why aren't you telling him NOT to respond for you? That you will speak for yourself?

To me this is poor boundaries. So perhaps he thinks he's "in charge" of your dating life now. He plays with the account to set up coffee dates for you that he approves. Not for you to DATE date but to get him off.



What is "intimate" mean? Hotel for a couple hours? Were you in keeping with the current agreements? Sounds like you were.

I notice YOU made the plans on that one. Not husband.

Is that why he's being mean?

• Because he's not "in charge" of your dating this time? You went "off script?"
  
• Because of unhealed cheating things?
  
• Because he's just mean?
  
• A combo or all the above? Something else?

What you call "rules" I call "agreements." I assume the agreements apply to both sides. Do they?

You say "another rule he made." Is that how it works here? He doesn't suggest ideas for you both to consider and then actually agree to. He makes the rules and you are expected to obey?

You do not feel able to say "Well, you suggest X. I do not agree" or "Well, you suggest X. I cannot agree like that. If it was more like Y, then ok. That I can work with" in these talks without him having a cow?

Another thought...

Because you were the cheating partner before... do you agree to things that don't really fit you to help "make up" for the cheating? Do you give up too much privacy (like him being able to get in your online dating account) to prove you are not cheating again? Do you "give in" and agree to whatever rules without really considering them?

Because while cheating is not a good thing to do? It's not jail. And even in jail time, people serve the time and then are released. They have paid their debt to society and they can try to start again from a clean slate.

Have you done your time? Are you getting a clean slate now? Or does he throw it back in your face or use it as a weapon? Like "Well YOU cheated, so I am gonna do X and you cannot stop me" or similar?



I think you could say "I want to renegotiate agreements to eventually include overnights and trips."

Because you might not want to overnight instantly with a new dating partner. But eventually if it gets to be more serious dating you might. So the agreements between you might have to be more realistic.

Like "Your dating money is $$. Mine is $$. We have to stick to a budget so the house bills don't get dinged. Figure out overnights from that."

or

"No overnights without checking in about childcare first. Don't just dump the kids on me. "





He is not flaunting it. He thought you were gone already.

If the agreement applies to both sides and not just your side.... to me it sounds like he's breaking/cheating on the agreement not to go more than a few hours on a date.



I think the bigger problem is the enraged/mean. What's that all about?

Because if you start asking for changes and he thinks it should go how HE says? The mean thing might crop back up. I am concerned that may lead to hitting. Would that be a concern for you here?

If he's not really healed from the cheating and he's a mean person?

You might decide you don't want to be doing Open with him. Because it pushes buttons he cannot handle.

Or you might not want to be doing anything with him if he's not working on his anger appropriately and it starts to crank up to other kinds of mean. You have to look out for you and the kids.

Long story short? I think you have bigger problems than his "double standard" on agreements. I would step back to reassess your whole life post cheating rather than just that one area. Get the bigger picture.

This is an opportunity to figure out why you cheated and if this is really the life you want to be doing.

Don't be down in the trees all the time. Pause to look at the forest level view. THEN go back down to tree level to select the path you really want to be on right now.

Galagirl

 

[GalaGirl]

I should say that he actually cheated too, he just didn't consider it cheating because he didn't actually have SEX (like OMG, because it didn't go that far, it's less of something )

I assume that at the time the agreement was made you both agreed on what would "count" as cheating on it. Sex or no sex... if he cheated on his agreements, he cheated on his agreements.

He could either apologize and keep the agreements moving forward, apologize and ask to change the agreements so they are more keepable, or apologize and let the agreement go as unkeepable.

I'm not scared of him getting physical/hitting. He gets loud, and says mean things. But, has never laid a hand on me or the kids.

Is he working on that? The anger management/not being mean or loud? Finding more appropriate ways to express anger?

Be careful. Physical abuse is not the only kind of abuse. The other kinds can also be damaging.

Our issues before I cheated had a lot to do with lack of attention (NO sex for over a year and maybe 2-4 times a year in the years prior), as well as generally being ignored.

I guess I'm glad it is better than that now. But are you getting what you need here?

I think you're right in that he wants to maintain control of the situation. He says that its all just new for him.

Could be both. It is new AND he wants to maintain control of everything.

I meant that he was flaunting the girl in front of his employees.

Thank you for clarifying. I agree that's not appropriate behavior.

Our oldest daughter works for him as well, and even though she wasn't present when he was out with the girl and around a lot of the staff, there is a good chance that it get's back to her.

Not good that he is making things awkward for daughter at her place of work. Like it isn't awkward enough with her father being her boss (?) Now her relationship with her coworkers has to be weird as a result of his behaviors?

Although she is aware of our situation, she has asked that she not know about who either of us is seeing. And doesn't want to see any of them in his place of business. She walked in on him once in his office, right before things ended up in sex.

So... he makes agreements with eldest daughter and doesn't keep those either?

He has sex at work? Even if he is the boss/owner (?)... it's not good manners at work to be doing that. Sends a weird message to employees.

Perhaps daughter wants to think about working elsewhere? Then she never has to see his dating partners at her work.

This was after we had established the rule that nothing happen at the place of work. It was one of the first things I said, aside from always practicing safe sex. And the rule was made before our daughter even worked there.

So he cheated on another agreement.

Already established that he makes agreements with you that he does not actually keep.

Our daughter is almost 20 herself. She doesn't appreciate all her co-workers knowing what dad is doing, any more than I appreciate it. I understand some of his closer friends knowing, but the whole staff seems extreme.

Again...

I think you have bigger problems on your plate than the "double standard" about you only getting dates for a few hours and him getting half a day or longer dates.

Things like the ability to trust him at his Word, him making agreements he does not actually keep, him being mean, him behaving this way at work, him being controlling, etc.

Like why do crap Open?

If it's gonna be crap, maybe just don't do Open with him at this time and work on the relationship first. Try again later. There seem to be a lot of problems and Open has a way of shining a light on all the cracks.

Or... if this is all you will ever get here in this relationship? A little more attention and more date nights than before along with a whole bunch of cheating on agreements and stuff? Could reassess if you still want to be in this.

Maybe you prefer doing Open with other people who do NOT behave this way.

What I'm saying is... take a step back to look at your whole situation.

If you have a certain amount of energy... maybe not spend it on negotiating agreements for longer dating times. Because here's this whole other list of things that are wonky. And since he gets mean and you may have to deal with that backlash?

Pick and choose your battles. Tread carefully.

Galagirl

 

[Magdlyn]

Hi Farmgirl, welcome to the forum.

Others have addressed many specifics of your uncomfortable, rather unworkable situation. I want to get meta a bit, look at the forest, not the trees.

What you have here is a typical patriarchal situation. I wonder (correct me if I'm wrong), if you live in a conservative area, which is still a place where men are the heads of households, and "their" women promise to love, honor and OBEY?

Do you live on a farm? Are you a farm wife and your husband is a farmer? Does your 20 year old daughter also work on the farm?

It seems to me your husband thinks he can do whatever he wants, and you do what he tells you. He can have a sexual affair, but not call it cheating because he didn't (so he says) have SEX, ie: put his penis in a vagina. You, at first, didn't tell us you both cheated, you said YOU did. So, you had penis in vagina sex, and bought his idea that he can do all kinds of sexual stuff, (I'm guessing), kissing, using hands on his cheating partner's body (and vice versa), touching/stroking each others' genitals, maybe doing oral, having orgasms, etc. Maybe they even did anal penetration! But they didn't do penis in vagina so it's not "sex."

I know some hypocrites will say they didn't have sex when they've done a dozen other sexual things and just stopped short of actual PIV. But you accepted his explanation that YOU cheated, you're the cheating lying slut, and he was "good" because he did 100 sexual things with his cheat partner, but didn't actually do PIV. Please. *rolleyes*

We've pointed out you both cheated. You don't owe him a debt for this, since he also cheated, so your debts cancel each other out. In my opinion.

And why was there no sex, or next to no sex, for years? You were celibate all that time? Was he, really? I wonder. I wonder if he was cheating all along.

Stop buying his explanations, his cheating, his breaking of agreements, his double standard. Stand up for yourself. You're allowing him to do this to you. But you have power, you have worth, you have value. You deserve better treatment.

Polyamory is defined as an open romantic relationship where a person can see (date, have sex with, be romantic with) more than one person, with the joyful consent of all involved. There is no proper consent in your situation, from anyone, much less joyful consent. There is pettiness, backstabbing and sketchy behavior and a double standard, in typical male led fashion.

He enjoyed hot-wifing you out on your dating site. (And you ALLOWED this. Why? Guilt? Fear?) He didn't give you sex for years, but he eventually found he enjoyed pimping you out to other men. Like you are his possession. A nice car, say. The other men can look at his car online, they can talk about how sweet it is, they can covet it, they can come look at it in person, they can maybe touch it just a bit. Maybe even sit in the driver's seat. But actually drive it??? No way. He got off on leading these men to believe they'd be able to fuck you. But no, you're his car. It's his alone to drive. And he gets off on the other men's covetousness and frustration of not being able to rent the car, or drive it for free. Maybe they could drive it for a couple hours. But not take a real trip, not take it for 24 hours.

(Yet, he's not your car. He's his own autonomous being, and he can do whatever he wants, without your consent. He can buy or rent other cars, and drive them for as long as he feels like it. You have no say.)

So all this is very disturbing. But what really grosses me out is his flaunting his new gf at work, and even in front of your daughter, or at least being open enough about this gf, your daughter is well aware. And daughter almost caught her father having sex with gf, in his office? Am I getting that right? So, he disrespects all women. Not just you, but also your daughter. And no doubt he disrespects all women he is fucking, or might fuck in the future.

This is not a good situation, putting it mildly. You started another thread about common "rules" in polyamory. But this isn't polyamory. This is emotional abuse, blackmail, and narcissism, and not treating you as a full human being, and cheating, and CALLING it polyamory.

Lots of people these days have vaguely heard of polyamory, and call all kinds of sketchy cheating type behavior polyamory. So, he's not alone in this. But it's NOT polyamory (many loves). It's abuse and gross behavior.

 

[River]

What many folks apparently need is a basic overview of the core principles which are widely regarded as the basis of healthy, loving, adult relationships.

Once we have a handle on the core elements of such relationships, we can see how the finer details are implicit in the basic, core principles.

Healthy adult loving relationships are based on common principles, such as

• mutuality
• kindness
• respect
• dignity
• equality (including gender equality)
• honesty / integrity
• responsibility
• fairness

Most folks who regularly participate in this forum know the full list and are invited to grow this (above list), but you'll notice that all of the terms on the list flesh out a way of being which I'm calling "adult" (or "mature"). Obviously not everyone who has reached biological adulthood has learned how to have truly adult, mature human relationships.

Polyamory simply applies the ethos and principles of "adult relationships" (or "mature relationships) outside of the restrictions of the culture's dominant "romantic" relational paradigmn of monogamism. And most poly folk don't seem to have much need for "rules," preferring instead to form "agreements" ... all of which flow naturally from the overall ethos of Adult Relationships which is evoked in the principles listed (partially) above. Now, the principles I listed aren't explained above. Only their headings have been provided. Most of what those headings refer to is well understood among the folks who regularly participate in this forum, so most of us don't need each item to be explained in detail. Being fair (Fairness) is something we readily recognize, and so unfairness is equally well recognized in most cases -- such as in cases where someone assumes on the basis of their gender, age, race, etc., the Principles don't apply to themselves.

Mature, adult loving relationships are never about one person holding power over another in some oppressive way. Never. That's a basic violation of the principles of adult relationships. Much of what constitutes fairness derives from other principles in the list ... so much so that (for me) the common list of adult relationship principles are like facets on a cut stone, each reflecting the others and clarifying them. Each facet reflects and clarifies all of the other facets (principles). And the some of these all is what we call Adult Loving Relationships.

Unfortunately, a very large potion of relationships in our world, which are ostensibly between adults (by virtue of the ages of the participants) are not yet fully formed adult loving relationships. Even those which are mostly such are in process, usually, as the ideal serves as guidance for further learning, healing and maturing.

One of the main characteristics of adult loving relationships is mutuality. From the word mutual, meaning

possessed, experienced, performed, etc., by each of two or more with respect to the other; reciprocal: to have mutual respect.

having the same relation each toward the other: to be mutual enemies.
of or relating to each of two or more; held in common; shared:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/mutual

Notice how mutuality characterizes and helps define the other words in the list of principles of adult, loving relationships. It helps clarify what is meant by kindness, respect, dignity and so on. All of these terms do this for one another in a total cut diamond with many facets. It is thus a whole more than it is a collection of parts.

Another facet, not yet mentioned, is nurturing. What is being nurtured? All of the things on the list are being nurtured, including trust, which should be added to the list. Trust isn't something we simply offer up. It is earned. And it can be un-earned. It can be damaged and broken, and if the relationship is to be mended it will take time and effort to regain trust -- which, ideally, of course, is mutual.

When we have principles to look to for guidance we can also Practice. Add this to the list. Adult relationships not only require continuous practice, they constitute a whole life practice which informs ... well, our whole lives.

 

[vinsanity0]

The only thing I can add is that opening up is a process. It is rare that someone is immediately okay with it. It usually happens in fits and starts. It sounds like the husband is having difficulty letting go of the ownership mentality. It's actually quite normal.

 

[Farmgirl]

I think you're right.
A lot of people seem worried about him being abusive, but in normal day to day life he's not this crazy person. He definently overstepped doing things at work, where daughter could walk in at any time. But for he's always been a proponate of equal rights for everyone.

While living in a conservative state, my husband is not conservative and never has been. I own and run a farm based event business, but my husband owns & runs a nightclub.

The only thing I can add is that opening up is a process. It is rare that someone is immediately okay with it. It usually happens in fits and starts. It sounds like the husband is having difficulty letting go of the ownership mentality. It's actually quite normal.

 

[Farmgirl]

He definently overstepped doing things at work, where daughter could walk in at any time. But for he's always been a proponate of equal rights for everyone.

While living in a conservative state, my husband is not conservative and never has been. I own and run a farm based event business, but my husband owns & runs a nightclub.

Around the house we both do things. He actually does majority of the cooking and dishes. He doesn't usually try to control me. Its just with this that he's gotten a bit nuts.

QUOTE=Magdlyn;408292]Hi Farmgirl, welcome to the forum.

Others have addressed many specifics of your uncomfortable, rather unworkable situation. I want to get meta a bit, look at the forest, not the trees.

What you have here is a typical patriarchal situation. I wonder (correct me if I'm wrong), if you live in a conservative area, which is still a place where men are the heads of households, and "their" women promise to love, honor and OBEY?

Do you live on a farm? Are you a farm wife and your husband is a farmer? Does your 20 year old daughter also work on the farm?

It seems to me your husband thinks he can do whatever he wants, and you do what he tells you. He can have a sexual affair, but not call it cheating because he didn't (so he says) have SEX, ie: put his penis in a vagina. You, at first, didn't tell us you both cheated, you said YOU did. So, you had penis in vagina sex, and bought his idea that he can do all kinds of sexual stuff, (I'm guessing), kissing, using hands on his cheating partner's body (and vice versa), touching/stroking each others' genitals, maybe doing oral, having orgasms, etc. Maybe they even did anal penetration! But they didn't do penis in vagina so it's not "sex."

I know some hypocrites will say they didn't have sex when they've done a dozen other sexual things and just stopped short of actual PIV. But you accepted his explanation that YOU cheated, you're the cheating lying slut, and he was "good" because he did 100 sexual things with his cheat partner, but didn't actually do PIV. Please. *rolleyes*

We've pointed out you both cheated. You don't owe him a debt for this, since he also cheated, so your debts cancel each other out. In my opinion.

And why was there no sex, or next to no sex, for years? You were celibate all that time? Was he, really? I wonder. I wonder if he was cheating all along.

Stop buying his explanations, his cheating, his breaking of agreements, his double standard. Stand up for yourself. You're allowing him to do this to you. But you have power, you have worth, you have value. You deserve better treatment.

Polyamory is defined as an open romantic relationship where a person can see (date, have sex with, be romantic with) more than one person, with the joyful consent of all involved. There is no proper consent in your situation, from anyone, much less joyful consent. There is pettiness, backstabbing and sketchy behavior and a double standard, in typical male led fashion.

He enjoyed hot-wifing you out on your dating site. (And you ALLOWED this. Why? Guilt? Fear?) He didn't give you sex for years, but he eventually found he enjoyed pimping you out to other men. Like you are his possession. A nice car, say. The other men can look at his car online, they can talk about how sweet it is, they can covet it, they can come look at it in person, they can maybe touch it just a bit. Maybe even sit in the driver's seat. But actually drive it??? No way. He got off on leading these men to believe they'd be able to fuck you. But no, you're his car. It's his alone to drive. And he gets off on the other men's covetousness and frustration of not being able to rent the car, or drive it for free. Maybe they could drive it for a couple hours. But not take a real trip, not take it for 24 hours.

(Yet, he's not your car. He's his own autonomous being, and he can do whatever he wants, without your consent. He can buy or rent other cars, and drive them for as long as he feels like it. You have no say.)

So all this is very disturbing. But what really grosses me out is his flaunting his new gf at work, and even in front of your daughter, or at least being open enough about this gf, your daughter is well aware. And daughter almost caught her father having sex with gf, in his office? Am I getting that right? So, he disrespects all women. Not just you, but also your daughter. And no doubt he disrespects all women he is fucking, or might fuck in the future.

This is not a good situation, putting it mildly. You started another thread about common "rules" in polyamory. But this isn't polyamory. This is emotional abuse, blackmail, and narcissism, and not treating you as a full human being, and cheating, and CALLING it polyamory.

Lots of people these days have vaguely heard of polyamory, and call all kinds of sketchy cheating type behavior polyamory. So, he's not alone in this. But it's NOT polyamory (many loves). It's abuse and gross behavior.[/QUOTE]

 

[Magdlyn]

He definitely overstepped doing things at work, where daughter could walk in at any time. But for he's always been a proponent of equal rights for everyone.

While living in a conservative state, my husband is not conservative, and never has been. I own and run a farm based event business, but my husband owns & runs a nightclub.

Around the house we both do things. He actually does majority of the cooking and dishes. He doesn't usually try to control me. Its just with this that he's gotten a bit nuts.

OK, that answers a few of my questions. You do farm based events, fairs, sales, or whatever. Your husband, let's call him John, runs a nightclub. He does shenanigans with his new gf, let's call her Jane, at his nightclub. Your daughter works at this club, despite being only 20. She knows that you and John are now Open, but doesn't want it thrown in her face. Fair enough.

Some people are "out" to their children about being in an Open relationship, so this in and of itself is fine. But it would be terrible to see her father actually being overtly sexual with Jane out in public at a night club. Kids generally don't enjoy seeing their parents being overtly sexual, even with each other, much less with others.

If the parents are in an Open relationship, and have "come out" to their kids, the kids might be fine with the parents being affectionate with another significant other (OSO), cuddling, hugging, a quick kiss. But sexual? Not appropriate.


Here are the rest of my comments and questions you still haven't addressed.

The lack of sex between you for years. The cheating on both your parts, where he says you cheated, but he didn't, because he didn't do PIV.

The hot-wifing on your dating site, and you going along with it.

As vinsanity pointed out, doing poly is confusing at first. It sounds like John has lost his mind over his new found freedom. Flaunting Jane at work, hot-wifing you, etc. You say this new Openness has made him "a bit nuts," as he's usually "woke" as far as equal rights for women and men.

I guess it's up to you to point out his double standards, and refuse to buy into it. It is not unusual for people new to poly to get a "kid in a candy store" attitude when newly Open. It's like NRE (new relationship energy) for Polyamory (or just being Open, I'm not sure you or he ID as poly, yet), itself. Not just for one person. NRE is a hormonal state which can definitely make people act "nuts."

I'd recommend you read the website morethantwo.com. And share the info with your husband. Especially read about NRE, and the necessity for open communication, and the need for the primary relationship to be on good healthy terms before Opening.

Keep reading others' stories here too, of course. You and John aren't the first ones to make mistakes when first Open.

However... sounds like maybe his problems, or your marital problems, are deeper than John going "a bit nuts" now that you two have Opened. It sounds like your marriage had issues for years, reflected at least in lack of sex, if not in other areas you haven't mentioned yet.

It's generally not a great idea to Open a relationship when it's in trouble. "Relationship broken, add more people" just complicates things, and also isn't fair to any new partners.

From here, it looks like you and John should take a break from being Open, until you establish what being Open should look like, for both of you. No more double standards, no more sexual behavior at the club.

What do you want from being Open? Do you want to keep going to dating sites and finding a boyfriend, on your own, without John's so-called "help"?

It seems to me your husband thinks he can do whatever he wants, and you do what he tells you. He can have a sexual affair, but not call it cheating because he didn't (so he says) have SEX, ie: put his penis in a vagina. You, at first, didn't tell us you both cheated, you said YOU did. So, you had penis in vagina sex, and bought his idea that he can do all kinds of sexual stuff, (I'm guessing), kissing, using hands on his cheating partner's body (and vice versa), touching/stroking each others' genitals, maybe doing oral, having orgasms, etc. Maybe they even did anal penetration! But they didn't do penis in vagina so it's not "sex."

I know some hypocrites will say they didn't have sex when they've done a dozen other sexual things and just stopped short of actual PIV. But you accepted his explanation that YOU cheated, you're the cheating lying slut, and he was "good" because he did 100 sexual things with his cheat partner, but didn't actually do PIV. Please. *rolleyes*

We've pointed out you both cheated. You don't owe him a debt for this, since he also cheated, so your debts cancel each other out. In my opinion.

And why was there no sex, or next to no sex, for years? You were celibate all that time? Was he, really? I wonder. I wonder if he was cheating all along.

Stop buying his explanations, his cheating, his breaking of agreements, his double standard. Stand up for yourself. You're allowing him to do this to you. But you have power, you have worth, you have value. You deserve better treatment.

Polyamory is defined as an open romantic relationship where a person can see (date, have sex with, be romantic with) more than one person, with the joyful consent of all involved. There is no proper consent in your situation, from anyone, much less joyful consent. There is pettiness, backstabbing and sketchy behavior and a double standard, in typical male led fashion.

He enjoyed hot-wifing you out on your dating site. (And you ALLOWED this. Why? Guilt? Fear?) He didn't give you sex for years, but he eventually found he enjoyed pimping you out to other men. Like you are his possession. A nice car, say. The other men can look at his car online, they can talk about how sweet it is, they can covet it, they can come look at it in person, they can maybe touch it just a bit. Maybe even sit in the driver's seat. But actually drive it??? No way. He got off on leading these men to believe they'd be able to fuck you. But no, you're his car. It's his alone to drive. And he gets off on the other men's covetousness and frustration of not being able to rent the car, or drive it for free. Maybe they could drive it for a couple hours. But not take a real trip, not take it for 24 hours.

(Yet, he's not your car. He's his own autonomous being, and he can do whatever he wants, without your consent. He can buy or rent other cars, and drive them for as long as he feels like it. You have no say.)

So all this is very disturbing. But what really grosses me out is his flaunting his new gf at work, and even in front of your daughter, or at least being open enough about this gf, your daughter is well aware. And daughter almost caught her father having sex with gf, in his office? Am I getting that right? So, he disrespects all women. Not just you, but also your daughter. And no doubt he disrespects all women he is fucking, or might fuck in the future.

This is not a good situation, putting it mildly. You started another thread about common "rules" in polyamory. But this isn't polyamory. This is emotional abuse, blackmail, and narcissism, and not treating you as a full human being, and cheating, and CALLING it polyamory.

Lots of people these days have vaguely heard of polyamory, and call all kinds of sketchy cheating type behavior polyamory. So, he's not alone in this. But it's NOT polyamory (many loves). It's abuse and gross behavior.

[/QUOTE]