FMF vs MFM

Shaya

Shaya

New member
Maybe another contentious topic, with apologies if I raise anyone's hackles. I'm really too new to really know, but I get the feeling that within polyamory that is V-shaped, the MFM configurations tend to last or to be more stable than the FMF ones.

Why is this? Or is my sample size on this forum biased?

EDIT: I am aware some people will identify as gender-neutral or gender-fluid and apologise if you feel I am marginalising such people with my binary discussion of male/female. No exclusion is intended. Please feel free to chip in.
 
haha You also left out us bisexuals. I've been in a successful LTR with a woman for 8.5 years and we've had lots of great Vs with one or the other of us having a boyfriend. I think women make good (better) hinges than men do, usually.

No offense to the guys. Women are just culturally encouraged to deal with emotions better and communicate about them more fully.
 
Shaya said:
Maybe another contentious topic, with apologies if I raise anyone's hackles.
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You don't have to apologize for bringing up topics that might inspire spirited discussion. The discussion belongs to the participants and just because you had the idea doesn't mean that you're responsible for where the discussion goes. You're accountable only for what you write. It's pretty clear that nobody is here to stir things up and it's very clear that you are here to share ideas and to learn. No worries.
 
I have seen a thing that seems to happen in many MFM V's (and the rare triad) where the men form this brotherly comrade sort of bond. Kevin has a "brother husband" and that is a great way to put it. There is a thing you see with men who grow up friends, with combat battle buddies...men have a really cool ability to bond in certain ways.

Women may be socialized to better manage the emotional needs of multiple partners...but I have also seen a negative side to women when they are trying to share a home with another woman.

Even though men and women often both work, women are still often the head of the domestic sphere. Ever heard the saying, "Happy wife, happy life?" I have seen this so often in monogamous couples where the woman is the real head of the household and the man supports her needs in the home. She chose the decor, she sets the tone for holidays and child-rearing, and if a tough or dirty chore needs done, it goes on the "honey do" list for the man.

Now bring in another woman, and either she is forced to be submissive to the wife and live a sort of twilight half-life of domesticity like a servant...or there can be conflict.

Now if you take cohabitation out of the picture, you avoid a lot of that, but I think that so many people are wired for escalation, to expect that either a relationship will end up with the participants living together, OR it is somehow less of a relationship or not meant to last as such...

Then there is a thing I've observed with many straight men. I have heard many times that women fit into two main categories...those you fuck, and those you marry. This isn't very fair or progressive thinking, but it's still a background routine in the behavior of many men in society. So that means that the man who finds The One, the woman he doesn't just want to chance might take his seed, but the one he wants to provide for and protect...he is perhaps apt to either continue to make her The Priority and treat a secondary girlfriend as too casual and not give her the degree of love and consideration and energy and connection that she needs to remain happy long-term...or else fall into a more "serial monogamy" route without meaning to, where maybe his sexuality isn't satisfied in his marriage and he transfers it to a secondary while with the best of intentions to keep loving and prioritizing his wife... But she feels set aside nonetheless.

Accepting a second provider/protector, though? Well, it depends on how you can frame it. Most mono guys will respond with horror of the very thought, but if you frame it in context of male team dynamics and brotherly bonds, where there just happens to be a shared woman (purpose, goal, household) in the picture?

And finally to speak to some of the Tao philosophies I've read recently:
A man's Yang is limited. A woman's Yin, not so much. A woman has more Yin to give, than a man has Yang, and unless he can have sex without spending his Yang, he will soon be depleted, exhausted, and drained. High status women have long sought multiple male partners to satisfy them, because of this natural state of affairs. Now to take that basic premise out of ancient Chinese philosophy and translate it into my real world experience, which has been confirmed by many women I know?

The more orgasms I have, in general, the more I WANT to have. I might be fucked into exhaustion sometimes, but it really does not take long before I'm ready to go again, and if it's good, I can stay in bed all day with a partner. There is a strong argument for a woman being more sexually awake, alive, passionate and happy with one man, because she also has another in her life, and the original man benefits too. Conversely, a man trying to properly satisfy two women's sexual and emotional needs, completely, by himself? Tall order, in practice, perhaps. At least that's what the Tao would say about it.
 
Speaking to what Spork was saying about women and multiple orgasms (and the more you have the more you want), my ex-boyfriend had a very, very short recovery period after sex, often as short as ten minutes. My husband, by contrast, has a much longer one, so I was used to having sex and orgasms at most once per day when I met my ex-boyfriend. When we first started dating, I was like a kid in the candy store, we were having sex multiple times every time we got together and I'd often then go home and want sex with my husband also (which he had a hard time wrapping his head around at first, since for him, if he's gotten off that day, he very rarely desires sex again, even if it's with a different partner). I remember one time that my ex was at my house and the only reason we'd stopped our marathon sex session was because my husband was due home and we were trying to be respectful and not have him hear us having sex as one of the first things he heard right when he walked in. At that moment, I got a text from my husband, saying that he was running late, and I immediately had my hands all over my boyfriend (yes, I had his consent). He was a little amazed at how many times we'd had sex that day and commented on it with a little awe in his voice. He loved sex, liked having it multiple times per day, and he was often surprised at my near constant desire to continue having marathon sex sessions. We went through a lot of condoms before we fluid bonded :D. You should have seen the look on the checkout clerk's face at Target when my husband and I went through her line with a box of Christmas cards and two boxes of 36 condoms. :)

Edited to add: I agree with Spork on the difficulty some men have in balancing the desires and needs of more than one partner. It's definitely been an issue in my marriage, after the first year of being open. My husband, for that first year, was very careful to make sure that I didn't feel neglected, since I had agreed to open our marriage since he had fallen in love with his girlfriend and he was trying to make sure that he didn't do anything to make me want to close our relationship again. But it's hard to be constantly vigilant like that for a long time and eventually his relationship with his girlfriend did effect our sex life, because he did have such limited sexual energy and was more excited about the new person in his life than the person he had been fucking for twenty years.
 
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I'm really too new to really know, but I get the feeling that within polyamory that is V-shaped, the MFM configurations tend to last or to be more stable than the FMF ones.
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Shaya,

I would tend to agree with you - and I suspect that anyone who spends a few months on this forum regularly following the posts (and I believe we came aboard about the same time) would most likely come to the same conclusion - at least based on what is posted here.

Al
 
Hannafluke wrote -
Speaking to what Spork was saying about women and multiple orgasms (and the more you have the more you want)
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Following up on Spork and Hannahfluke's thoughts - even from the hetero male point of view, I believe that is a generally true perspective.

Spork wrote:
There is a strong argument for a woman being more sexually awake, alive, passionate and happy with one man, because she also has another in her life, and the original man benefits too.
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That is my experience in the brief time we have spent in a poly marriage. Becky having sex with Ben has definitely added spice and energy to our sex life - especially when she has just been with Ben. I wrote recently on another thread about how hot we found the sex to be following Becky's first overnight with Ben - but her second overnight with Ben was even more to this point. Becky and Ben had met for dinner that evening and had sex twice before going to sleep - then they had until dinner the next day together - and had sex three more times before they had to part (the last just time just before they parted - both are a dozen years younger than me and Ben does have better recovery time - although I can "last longer"). A couple of hours later, Becky walked in the door at our home and couldn't wait to get me into bed - and then we had sex twice before bedtime (and we are usually just once a day) - so she had sex seven times and probably had at least a dozen orgasms between the two of us over that (just over) 24 hour period. And then we had sex the next three days as well before taking a break.

Al
 
I'm only limited by my muscle fatigue and energy levels. Like I'll get exhausted...but I still want another orgasm. It's just a question of whether I'm too tired to work on it or not. My muscles get all floppy eventually. lol "shagged out" indeed! And at that point I'm like, "bring on the wand!" :D
 
Hi Shaya,

I believe that -- in polyamory -- the MFM V is more common than the FMF V. Though I'm not sure how much more common; I have seen FMF V's here and elsewhere.

Although I would point out, I am not including polygamy in my estimate. We'd have a lot of FMF V's if polyamory and polygamy were combined. And not all polygamous marriages are dysfunctional ... just sayin'.

Regards,
Kevin T.
 
Well, combining this forum AND the poly community that exists in conjunction to my kink and swinger community in my area...

I think that FMF (or multi-female configurations) are more commonly attempted. But the MFM ones tend to be more stable and lasting. The most common by far that I see are more of a network that is generally in a state of flux. You might have some people who are in it for longer, and others who come and go in a matter of months. Poly comes in SO many shapes and sizes.

I know "Leather families" or "Houses" as they are called here, where there are a few core individuals that last years, and others come and go, and they involve all sorts of gender configurations and might be headed up by a man or woman or nonbinary person or whatever.

I know of Dominant men with multiple female slaves, where their configuration has lasted a long time, the ones I'm thinking of however only have one wife and kids in their home, and they have girlfriends who live elsewhere. I can think of a few I know in real life where their configuration has been stable for quite a while.

But then we also have to consider that question of "what does success look like?" and that, I believe, should be open to some interpretation. I think that the notion that longevity and stability (same partners for life, or for at least many years) is part of the "monogamy hangover" or those notions we bring from our monogamous conditioning.

I know some very happy ethical sluts who would be wretched trying to be tied down to that. And I personally don't mind if a relationship does not last forever if that doesn't feel natural to it. I tailor my expectations to my interactions, not the other way around. I felt with my "quad" of a year, that I had lifelong dear beloved friends, chosen family...but I did not expect really that we would carry on unchanged with sexual/romantic partnerships for life. And I was ok with that! I was not looking for that kind of commitment at that time. I still love them just as much as I did when I was having sex with them. I just don't have sex with them anymore, and don't spend Saturdays with them necessarily.

In fact I think my biggest feeling of criticism against the "unicorn hunter" types, isn't so many of the things that people fuss about like couple privilege and so forth... It's this notion of setting out with this detailed plan for what your relationship future is going to look like, before you've even met the person(s) you're gonna try and squeeze into it. I think it's happier to relax those demands and enjoy the human gifts the universe brings to you, on the terms that evolve naturally around them.

Similarly, I am put off by normal mono folks who go spouse hunting, you see the profiles where they are looking for THE ONE in like OK Cupid...dude, I don't know you, so how would I know if I could try and fit into your fantasy? That's a lot of pressure. And it makes me feel like a man doesn't care at all who I am or what I might need, he just wants to use me to achieve his life goals. My longest relationship so far has been the furthest thing from "success" that I've had. So I always have to challenge what is meant by that word.
 
I think men settle easier than women. I think we see the tip of this within the dating pools for poly men and single women. They don't want to be a fraction or feel like they're getting 1/3 or 1/4 of what's possible. And by contrast some men feel something is better than nothing. I've seen friends and colleagues pick up less than attractive women at last call in a bar. Sliding standards.
 
From my perspective as a woman...

"Any partner is better than no partner" sounds like a road straight into an abusive relationship, or being taken advantage of or used in some way. And I don't even mean used for sex...I mean things like supporting some addict or manchild who wants a free ride to his life goal to beat every video game ever made. I would much rather be alone, than supporting, feeding, and cleaning up after a freeloader...or being harmed.

Poly men do pretty well in my kink community though. Even the ones who aren't rich or good looking, if they develop some kind of specialized skill or even just a convincing air of authority (works better with the bigger, or older men...not so much the youngun's) the ladies line right up. I only mention this because there is such a very significant presence of poly in the kink scene here. Big, big overlap. And it seems to work pretty well as a dating pool for many people.
 
Spork said:
I think that FMF (or multi-female configurations) are more commonly attempted. But the MFM ones tend to be more stable and lasting. The most common by far that I see are more of a network that is generally in a state of flux.
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This is my experience as well - whether my relationships look like FMF v's or MFM v's depends on who you arbitrarily decide is the middle, in general they look more like molecules and I've occasionally diagrammed them as such. Think something like, oh, this: http://kimchicuddles.com/post/145121785030/updated-polycule-for-full-character - and if you follow that comic you know that that's just a snapshot and things may have changed since last year when it was drawn.

But then, I feel that non-poly relationships with people have the same thing - you might have a "chosen family" of a few tight people you spend much of your time with, but the rest of the circles around you change as your hobbies change or your job changes. It's no different just because you add the potential for romance or sex.
 
dingedheart said:
I think men settle easier than women. I think we see the tip of this within the dating pools for poly men and single women. They don't want to be a fraction or feel like they're getting 1/3 or 1/4 of what's possible. And by contrast some men feel something is better than nothing. I've seen friends and colleagues pick up less than attractive women at last call in a bar. Sliding standards.
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There has been something about this that rubbed me the wrong way, maybe it sounds too close to what some very bitter men in other forums I've seen have expressed in the past, that women have the luxury of being choosier or something, I don't know. My mind has returned to this post a few times now.

I'm thinking about your bar example. Now granted, I have never made a habit of seeking love or sex in bars. But I am thinking that those men who pick up the less attractive leftovers at the end of the night, are not looking for the next love of their lives. They are looking to get laid. And similarly, you're neglecting to contemplate the woman's perspective in this. Because she, too, is "settling" ...she likely knows that she's just in for some sex and not the beginning of a relationship in that scenario, at least I'd hope so, and she is maybe having some kind of a "yolo" moment and going with it because why the hell not. But she is settling for a man who views her as not his first pick but better than nothing...at least for one night.

But I tend to dislike the concept of valuing humans on a mere scale of attractiveness. I don't go for "pretty" alone. Or wealth, or other superficial standards. If a person doesn't bring more than that to the table, they aren't getting anywhere with me. And to anyone who wishes to argue that "tough, that's just how most people think"...not my partners. Even the Worm King, who was as "player" as they come for me, said that his minimum standards were, "I've got to be able to have an interesting conversation with you, and I have to want to fuck you." Pretty might be a factor, but it ain't the only one.

And it's also worth mention that what in your eyes is a "less attractive" woman, is not an objective standard. I know men who go gaga over women that others find downright ugly. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and one man's hard limit is another man's fetish.

Now if we are talking about RELATIONSHIPS and not just picking someone up for sex, then I have known as many women as men who settled for someone who could not really meet their needs or who wasn't really a good choice for them. The "I cannot be alone" mentality can lead to bad places.
 
Spork : sorry my opinion has rubbed you the wrong way. I'm not sure who on page one introduced the topic of sex and orgasm production and male recovery times as factors for the differences in V's but that makes sense to you but men settling or not caring as long as theyre fed and fucked is offensive?

There's overwhelming evidence by poly men using dating sites that the " open /poly moniker makes high percentage of women shy away. AAAND the exact opposite is true for women You put open and poly on there and it's like catnip or triple catnip. I've been told the by poly women going to a poly meet and greet they felt like they were in a meat market. Oh no how could that be???

Also I've talked with plenty of men here on the forum who have quite openly said they knew they were settling but it was better than nothing OR the women in their life was so outstanding that 1/4 relationship with her would be like a full relationship with the average women walking the streets. I have no idea if those guys were desperate losers or not but it did happen.
 
Rubbed me the wrong way kind of indirectly.

More like it reminded me, like distant echoes, of other conversations that carried a lot more acrimony than what was in your post. It was a nagging feeling, like when someone reminds you of someone and you just have to pin it down.

I hope that makes sense?

And I think it matters to differentiate, what is one looking for, sex or relationship?

I think that more men are seeking casual sex, and in fact the OKC profiles who have that box checked are more numerous for males than for females (my ex and I compared it when we were both using OKC.)

To the bar example...how are those "less attractive" women at last call not also kinda "settling" for something less than what they might want?

I never called anyone a desperate loser.

But I did say that I have known PLENTY of women who also stayed in bad relationships because it was scary to be alone. You are painting this picture of women (I guess you only count the pretty ones, not those "less attractive" ladies at last call) being inundated with a wealth of everything they might want, where men struggle just to get their basic needs met with whatever they are lucky enough to catch.

Or at least...you reminded me enough of similar sentiments I have oft heard elsewhere, usually by men with...well...dinged hearts, not to put too fine a point on it.

But the reality from my perspective is that we all have our struggles one way or another. I know men in multi-male poly configs who don't feel that they have merely settled for what they could get. And I know women in multi-female configs who feel fortunate to have even a fraction of their man's time. Beautiful women. And wonderful men.

Another factor I wonder about in the longterm health of multi-female configurations, is the social conditioning most women have to be very insecure about our looks and compare ourselves to other women.

Oh, and when I talked about orgasm stuff, I was pretty clear that I was only citing some recent reading as an interesting "maybe?" I am not sure how that compares or relates to what we're talking about right now. Was that objectionable to you? If so, I apologize.
 
This has not been my experience at all. In fact I find the whole being a woman equals having all the penis I want to be complete bullshit. Maybe it is more true of conventionally attractive women (I don't consider myself to be in that category. Nor do I think I'm ugly btw). I struggle to meet people who are interested in me and who I am interested in. I suppose I could take up the 'what up?' super low match men on OKC on their offer of peen. When I have tried this with men who were better matches, they ghosted, canceled or otherwise flaked. Dating is just hard.

It's a myth that penis is easy to get. I'm sorry dinged. I see it as a way for bitter, unsuccessful in relationships men to explain away their own lack of dating. And it is triggering to me. I see this brought up over and over in various places and I start to wonder if I'm that much of a failure as a female person since dick is so easy to get and yet, I'm finding it difficult to find casual sex, much less relationships.

And then there is when I don't want penis. I want women, trans people or just gender fluid or non-binary. That also doesn't enter into this myth.
 
Well spoken, opalescent. Not everything is as the immediate obvious makes it seem.
 
Fact. If we go with anecdotal evidence of the forum there are way more MFM v's with a survival rate of 3-5 yrs I can think of 5-8 off the top on the forum and 3 in RL. The other ones with 2 females were either a V with a bi female hinge or a triad configuration.

I think we all would have to agree there is going to many factor that contribute to this disparity not one single factor. People talk about social programming all the time here might this case women in society are trained or programmed ?? Don't take off your top and or pant for the first guy whimsy she loves you. Don't get stupid drunk at a party and pass out bad things happen.

Why are fathers of daughter classically harder on boys calling on their young daughters ???? Give up ? Because they know what pigs boys / young men can be. They lived it ....they're looking right back to their own youth. Except for me I was a complete gentleman / boyscout ...that's why I like to breakdown and clean a shotgun at date pick up time :D I've only done that once because I thought it would be funny.


For years women and feminists have complained that men are pigs driven by sex and think with their " little heads " more than they should, etc etc etc. And what I'm saying is YES there's some general truth to that and also our needs might be simpler / basic and thus we settle for less.

Spork you're an awesome feminist....a man says women are a little more discrimating and that his own gender tends to settle more and you say fuck you we settle just as much as you do :D:D. OK Amen sister .. Thank you for that you made me smile.

I think you're right that about the differentiation of sex and relationships however some men ( the pigs :D) see those as being one in the same. If they can get in your pants for even 30 minutes to an hour they're in a relationship with you ....pity it didn't last at least til morning. :D


I think you're right the last call scenario didn't doesn't accurately fit what's happening in these V's. And you make a excellent point about last call women they need " love " too and it might be incredibly hard to figure out who settled more.

So these v's that you've cited ( the attractive people ) do you know how their poly dynamic started. I'd say 98% of the cases that I had personal contact with a male spouse that moved from a monogamous relationship to a poly v felt he was settling. My point is if the people you talked with had started out for ground zero poly than it seems reasonable no one felt like they had settled. And then ask any spouse going through poly hell if they think they settled I'm betting you're going to get opposite answers.


Just to be gender neutral here I think there are lots of women who discover poly because they settled a spouse that didn't check off all the right boxes. One could argue that's exactly what brought me here. It might be a hard case to suggest my wife settled when she pressed and pushed me to marry her after 3 yrs of dating.

Opal. Thanks as always for dispelling penis myths :D you're my go to gal on penis myths.

I based my comment on my first career which was in the fast pace / high risk financial services industry entertaining foreign clients. Plus 30 something yrs of plain life and then the comment and or testimony/ stories of guys trying to date outside their marriage.

Sorry to hear about your dry spell buddy :( I think that's happened to everyone at one time or another. I think it's the universes way of giving us a time out. I once had a dry spell that lasted a yr and then right after that I was dating 3 women ( I was poly before I even knew the word ) :D

Today's Penis myth question: What's worth more .....2 in the hand or 1 in the bush ? :D. And don't be going all size on this :D

Kev : glad to see here. Didn't you say not long ago on another thread that your slice of the snowbunny pie was more than enough ???

And didnt you also say the brother husband struggled for a yr or longer getting use to the V ? If you get a chance ask him if during that time he felt like he was settling. And if he did feel he was settling why he did it ?
 
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