Help... Am I nuts???

M

midwestmama

New member
I've been reading on here for awhile but until today I haven't been able to register. So... Here is my built-up, pent-up confusion.

My husband Taniel and I have been married for 10 years. We met when I was married to my first husband. We became friends, nothing more, then. My first husband died, and I started dating Taniel a year later. About three years ago, we began swinging, and for the most part, it has been a positive experience. Most of our friends are also swingers. We feel very comfortable in the lifestyle, though we don't swing often.

Two years ago, we met a couple in person. I had been friends with the wife, Zelda, online for awhile through a swinging site. We met up with them at multiple events, without playing. After a year, Taniel and Zelda had sex together. No problem. (We all agreed in advance).

I spoke with Zelda and and her husband Scott often. I am very social.

My husband barely speaks to me... he does not communicate with others. He's an engineer, if that explains him. :)

In February of last year I realized I had feelings for Scott. However, I told myself I was silly. I couldn't have feelings for him. We continued to talk often.

Zelda is polyamorous.

Taniel said he'd never be okay if I were poly. Oh shit.

Well, I'm here on a poly site, so you can predict where this is going. in July, Scott and I both admitted we loved each other. We informed both of our spouses. Then Taniel said I could no longer speak to Scott! So I stopped!

Then Taniel said he could tell how hard it was on me, and if I kept him in the loop, he'd deal. So I resumed speaking to Scott. Several times after that, Taniel struggled with it.

At one point, we spent a weekend at the other couple's house, just to be friendly, no sex.

Taniel tried hard to control things in general, like how much and often I could talk to Scott, what we could talk about, etc. (Scott lives several hours away, so seeing him, dating him regularly, wasn't an option.) Taniel would take my phone and read it when I set it down, without asking. He changed the settings to record conversations I had with Scott without telling me, etc.

I finally wrote a long letter to Taniel, basically saying:

"Scott is my boyfriend and I love him. But I can't handle it if means that you treat me like I'm less of a person because of it. Either you're okay with it, or you're not. I can't go back and forth like this. But if you say I can be with him, you can't take it back again. It will hurt too much."

He thought about it for hours. He decided that it made me happier than it bothered him. Over the next few weeks, things were going very well. He said things were getting better for him. I finally relaxed, let go, and freely fell more deeply in love with Scott.

A few weeks later, out of the blue, Taniel started sobbing, said this was killing him, and I could never talk to Scott again if I wanted to stay married. That was a month ago. I cut things off immediately with Scott.

Now I am missing Scott so much. I want to talk to him. I'm bitter and distrustful of Taniel. He had told me many times over that he'd never say I couldn't be friends with Scott, even when he'd say we couldn't have sex.

Taniel has not softened this stance. I am not begging him to; I have self respect. However, I've tried to talk with him about how I feel like I am pretending now to be someone I am not. He said I can be poly, just not act on it. What???

I had never heard of polyamory before this relationship, but it explains a lot to me about my past.

So... that was long and drawn out, but I wanted to include everything that might be relevant.

We have other friends that are poly, and they have a friend who is a therapist. Our friends said this therapist would be open-minded about polyamory, so we are going to go to him, probably. But I am terrified the therapist will just say that I was cheating and tell us how to heal from it.

Where do I go from here? How do I "un-poly myself" or transform Taniel?

By the way, he has said before about how he thought a certain female friend of ours could be his girlfriend.

Thanks in advance.
 
Your husband is acting out of the mindset that comes with swinging. DON'T FALL IN LOVE, DAMN IT! BAD BAD BAD! Swinging is very monogamy-based. There is a lot of control of emotions. While there may be no or few sexual boundaries, there are a lot of emotional, ownership, and control boundaries.

Polyamory is much different.

Swinging is awesome if you want to have a loving couple relationship, and have lots of fun times having sex with others. It works for some people and is a huge benefit to the "couple" relationship. Some people are just not able to control themselves emotionally after a time, fall in love, start caring for someone, start wanting more than just sex. This seems to be where you are, but Taniel is not.

The transformation between monoamory and polyamory is a huge one. It's a 180-degree change of view on how relationships are conducted, and some people just can't make that change, or refuse to. That is who they are, and it's their right. The thing is that the person needing the change is often left hanging and in limbo for ages and ages until a change happens or the relationship ends. How long that lasts is up to you. If you leave it, you could end up depressed, angry, bitter and resentful, with no love for anyone, anything, or even the desire to love. Someone controlling you will do that, in my belief.

You could leave your relationship and find like-minded people to befriend and date. You could also keep at it and not let down for a moment that you are ready to do what it takes to ensure he doesn't feel threatened by other loves, that he has enough time with you, and to prove that this is going to be a more heightened connection, a loving and fulfilling relationship, if you and he do what it takes to stay together.

You can't deny that this will be make or-break-time sooner or later, if not because of Scott, then someone else.

Has Taniel read here? Maybe that would be a start. Maybe seek out a local poly group to go to. Maybe the therapist will help. Whatever works to move the two of you forward. Even if you stick to the agreement that you won't talk to Scott, but work on your relationship with Taniel instead. All is negotiable and will work if the guys are open to it and ready.

The big thing is that love is timeless. There is lots of time and no rush. When the time is right and everyone is ready, then someone new in a relationship dynamic becomes a blessing and a gift. Preparing is the only way to get there.
 
Swinging is playing with fire. I don't get how people do it. Sex leads to bonding for me, love follows often...

I think biologically, and generally speaking, men are more able to separate sex from love. I think a lot of swingers deny fond feelings for their steady sex partners to keep their marriages intact. But what do you do when those feelings become too strong to deny? Then you realize you're poly as well as, or instead of, a swinger. If only one partner falls in love, you get a big old mess.

I'm sure therapy will help. Don't be afraid to be accused of cheating. If your therapist is aware of alternative love styles, you should not feel judged.
 
Your story is pretty common. Having sex with someone can open channels that allow you to connect to each other on a deeper level. It's why not many people go into swinging. But it's really a control tactic. Connections can happen outside that realm too. If it's going to happen, it does. It's pointless to try to defend against it. Better to prepare for it. Acknowledge the possibility in advance.

It can start with simple questions for you both to answer.
What is love, to me, and to you?
How can love become a negative, a threat?

I think some interesting discussions will develop from trying to answer these questions, and at that point things may change dramatically.
 
Thanks for the thoughtful replies.

He has read through the site in the past, along with some others. After reading the "Struggling Mono" thread he got worse. :( When I come across relevant threads I send him a link to them.

Last night we looked at the 14 steps link in "practicing poly" but he says he feels like he did try and it didn't work. Basically, he's given up. He said "No poly anything ever again" a few weeks ago. I got him to admit things can change and to say "No poly now. MAYBE someday." But I'm pretty sure that was just for my benefit and not what he really thinks or would ever want.

I said I feel sad because he doesn't love all of me. I know there are parts that you love people in spite of, but this feels more like a part he really hates and resents. He said he loves all of me, even this part. I said "I'm confused because you'd leave me over a part of me you love." His response, "I'm sorry it's confusing to you."

I will ask him the questions posted in your replies.

As for swinging, I quite enjoy it. There have been people that we click with sexually and we repeat with whenever possible (2-3 times per year) and ones that we play with only once. Swinging is seen to us as a sex toy. We've played alone and together, had 2, 3, 4, and more somes.


Scott and I fell for each other before we were ever together. We have been together sexually one time, but were interrupted very early into it and had to stop. We've never been sexually together again. So it wasn't that the sex led us to these feelings. But OH-- if I could have sex with him... Wow, I so wish.

Taniel and I have stopped swinging at this time. I am bitter that its okay for me to have sex with people I don't care about, but not people I DO care about. We, as a couple, aren't ready to be doing it right now. But Taniel wants to go back to it. I enjoyed it, and wouldn't mind, but I'm not sure I can handle it, if I would need to deny my polyamorous nature. It's just too risky.

And through this all I miss Scott. I've tried to erase him from my mind, but I just cannot. I've only told three men I love them, my late husband, Taniel and Scott. Love isn't something that comes easily to me. And I fought it, knowing Taniel wouldn't accept it well.

One thing Taniel has mentioned before was that he should be doing the things I say the other does for me, make me laugh and smile etc., as if only one person on earth is to do those things for me. There are certain sexual things/positions he enjoys that aren't my cup of tea. I delight in finding a swinger friend that will do those with him, so that he's getting a desire fulfilled and I didn't have to do it. I'm happy that he is happy. I so wish I could get the same in return.

Thanks so much for being here!
 
Dear Midwestmama,

Wow, it is amazing how alike our stories are. And also very different, of course.

An introduction to my dynamic life:
This week my husband asked me to choose between him and J (my second relationship for almost 5 months), because he couldn't take it anymore. I totally understand, because we were losing each other.

The feeling I felt when I saw the letter he gave me was a feeling of being not understood in the idea of true love for more then one person. The choice is valid from a monogamous point of view. From a poly point of view, there is no choice. The one example that comes the closest to the loving-more-than-one-person for someone who is mono is to choose between two parents. That is not possible in the heart. Of course, it is possible in a practical way. But I don't think that would make us happy, in the end.

I told my husband that I couldn't make that choice. The hard part is that my husband is my primary relationship. So, it is not completely fair that there is no choice. There should be a choice. But it would be denying myself, and I can't do that.

And another important thing is that J and I promised to never let our primary partners have the power to end our relationship. It only stops if J and I want it to stop. J and I needed that promise to feel safe, trusting and secure in our relationship.

At the moment, my husband and I are looking for options that work for us all. In the meantime, I'm not seeing J because I want to focus on my husband. I think that is a wise decision for now.

I don't think you cheated. You believed, and wanted to believe, that it was okay to love Scott. Being in love usually doesn't help to see things in a realistic way. Maybe I do understand the way you feel right now. Something like: in the first place it was okay, and now it isn't. That is confusing, and maybe sometimes it even feels dishonest. But it still is reality for you that you also love Scott. You can't put all those wonderful feelings back where they came from, can you? I can't, in my situation.

And Taniel really believed he could give you that, and now it turns out he cannot. :( Wow, that is hard for him too.

Double trouble is appropriate, I guess.

Good luck. I hope there is a solution that will make all of you happy. Thanks for sharing your story. It helped me a lot to read it. I do hope you can find some understanding, because I honestly don't think you are nuts.

I'm not sure if the things I wrote are clear. I'm still improving my English, so you can always ask me to try and write things in a different way.

Maybe we can find some support in sharing thoughts with each other. :)
 
I wonder if Taniel sees the fact that you are not into swinging right now as an ultimatum. You're "not allowed" to love Scott? Then no swinging. Not that that is what you are saying, but I wonder if it's how he sees it.

Give this some more time. It sounds like not only you are confused, but Taniel is also. It's hard to get the difference between swinging and poly for some people. Swinging is monogamous-hetero-based. It isn't surprising that there is a struggle to understand that love is infinite and uncontrollable. Once that feeling seeps in, it's hard to change it and go back. It is possible, but not unless you really want it. It sounds like you don't want the casual thing as much or at all anymore, because there has been a change in you.
 
Joyce, our situations do have a lot of similarities, huh? I don't have people giving me trouble about it because we didn't tell anyone except my sister-in-law, and it turns out she has a boyfriend. But she is cheating. Her husband has no idea. She and her her husband are so happy. It irritates me that she is happy while cheating. I'm honest and upfront about things and I don't get to experience it. However, I couldn't live with myself if I were cheating.

I showed my husband this thread. He has agreed to see if we can find a way. He isn't saying it will work, but he'll try. He told me to send him links to help him. I had bought The Ethical Slut on the recommendation of a poly friend but he didn't like it. I have been reading the book thread here and saw several monos saw it as threatening. Oops! So, back to the drawing board. But this is better than before.

He says I'm pushing him now. He doesn't like being pushed. I am pushing. I don't deny it. But before I started pushing it was "No way, won't try, don't want to, never"!

We're still working on us. We'll go see the therapist.

I'm still not talking to Scott. He was friends with Taniel before this, so I'm hoping somehow they can talk to each other again. Taniel still likes Scott, who has been respectful and done nothing wrong. It's the concept of polyamory that Taniel is struggling with.
 
The book Opening Up might be a better option.

There also exists a Dutch book: Love Unlimited by Leonie Linssen. It is a book with +/- 10 practical examples. I'm not sure if an English version is available. It should be available in 2010. I think it is a really helpful and understanding book for sorting out all different kinds of problem. They also have a case about swingers.

In the coming weeks I will need to focus on my studies, so I wish you good luck.
Thanks for the post,
Joyce
 
MidwestMama, you sound like my last girlfriend. Sadly, she and I had to break up because her hubby couldn't get over the fact that she and I were in love.

I barely ever see her anymore, and while it hurts, I shove that hurt down even deeper. I actually work with her hubby. (Odd, right?) He is my supervisor at my job. Oddly enough, he still got me this job even after knowing about his wife and me.

We started out as swingers also. My wife and I; my gf and her hubby. We were all swingers, but my wife and I only played with them. They would occasionally play with others, mainly after my wife and I introduced them to the local swingers club. Boy, was that a mistake. :rolleyes:

Anyway, we would meet up with them every weekend. This went on for three years. Eventually, after about two years, I realized that I actually cared for the woman. I confronted her and asked her if she felt the same. She confirmed that she did, but would never leave her hubby. I told her I didn't want her to leave him, and I wasn't going to leave my wife. So my wife and I started talking to the guy about polyamory. All he could clean out his ears to hear was "polygamy." :rolleyes: I tried and tried to explain it to him, but he got stuck on "poly", and made up the rest himself after that part of the word. :(

So, here I am now. My wife and I are currently dating a wonderful single woman. We are happy. I do have times of longing, but I get over them.

I have to ask, did you at least explain the problem to Scott? Or did you simply never speak to him again, leaving him wondering what he did to make you mad?
 
Within an hour of Taniel telling me that this was killing him and he could no longer do it, I was talking to Scott, explaining it to him. He wasn't all that surprised. Taniel has yo-yoed on this the entire time. That was in early December. I haven't talked with Scott since. I'm still friends with Zelda (his wife), so we both know of each other. But we don't talk to each other. She is poly, and totally okay with our relationship, so she is an easy person for me to talk with.

I told Scott so quickly because I was afraid Taniel would take it back when he saw me upset, and then, when I calmed down, a week or so later, do this again. (Its happened) and I just couldn't deal with it one more time. It is so gut wrenching.

I'm currently dying here. I sent Taniel a link to a page with info I wanted him to read on poly, but I sent it to his work address! Second time I've done that! That's bad. I get excited to find something that may help and I don't think to change the default email. Ugggggh

By the way, we don't have internet (live out in the sticks) other than our phones. To set up this account I had to go to the library and do it on their computers, because registration requires you to type in the scrambled letters and my phone doesn't show it. I've received messages from people here and I'm having trouble trying to reply. Please have patience if I don't reply quickly!
 
Hello MidwestMama. Perhaps looking at the "book recommendations" thread and ordering some books would help. That way you can do some reading at home when you can't get to a computer. Just a thought.
 
No worries about any slow replies. I totally understand what you mean about the dying thing. My wife was ok with me and my girlfriend being in love with each other. She knew I wasn't going to leave, and knew that it didn't diminish my love for her (my wife) at all. She was there for me the entire time throughout the breakup. I still remember hearing myself say "good-by D*******" the last time. For about a month after, I would go to work in hopes of hearing her voice on her hubby's cell phone, or possibly see her come into the shop. And the first time I saw her, she ignored me. She did this because of her husband. Not because of me. It is totally gut wrenching. But, as with all things, with time... it all passes.

My ex's hubby told me the other day that she came to him crying because my wife and I don't talk to them anymore. I simply said "I'm sorry to hear that. But I'm trying to keep my work and my personal lives separate. So I would appreciate your co-operation on it." He dropped it, but I could tell he was upset. He has told me that since we all broke up, he and his wife have not played with anyone else. I told him I was sorry to hear that, but it would never happen again with them and us. He got upset about that. Basically, because he couldn't handle his wife and me being in love, all his sex play got kicked out too. Oh well. I really don't feel sorry for him.

My advice to you? Be patient. Your husband may yet come around. My wife has bouts of jealousy about me and our girlfriend. How does she get over it? I have no clue. But when she tells me something makes her uncomfortable, I listen, and don't do it again! LOL

So be patient, Mama. It may yet happen. Just remember, the journey of 1000 miles begins with but one step and is completed through countless hours of hard work and determination.

My wife feels jealousy easier than I do. I think the reason is because, earlier in our marriage, when we would argue, I would tell her I was leaving her. She NEVER ONCE told me that. So she feels that if I find someone better, I'll leave her for the new person. I continuously tell her I'm not going anywhere, but it is a rough road, that's for sure.
 
We went to our first therapy session. It was very good. Now we have to wait 3 more weeks for the next one. Taniel still won't let me talk to Scott though.

Zelda is one of my best friends. She told me yesterday that if Scott ever said it was ok to talk to Taniel again, she'd probably say no. She didn't like how Taniel became controlling of me when this all went down. She doesn't want to see or talk to him ever again. :(

I was just devastated hearing this. Here we have been working hard to get ourselves okay, working on us as a couple and also figuring out how to live with someone else in my life. And while we aren't there, Zelda saying that took away the light at the end of the tunnel. :(

Taniel says he wishes he could snap his fingers and be okay with poly, but he isn't.

Therapy was interesting, but it was only one session. We're not there yet. I'm so glad we found an accepting therapist, though.

So there's my update.
 
I have a new issue/question for you, but I'm putting it on this thread so you can know the background on our situation.

It is nearing two months now since I talked to Scott, due to my husband's decision. I have recently told Taniel this was just more than I could handle. We're still going to therapy and working on how I can talk to Scott again.

So, we have a couple that are friends of ours. The husband, Bob, is Taniel's friend. Over time we have become friends with the wife, Becky. They are pretty good friends now. Taniel has always been attracted to Becky physically and he has often said how much he enjoys her company.

Bob and Becky are both poly. She was going to look for a boyfriend awhile back and Taniel joked to me that perhaps he could be her boyfriend. He made that comment again a month or so ago (after the break up of Scott and me).

We were to go out with them last weekend. Becky and Taniel kept talking about how happy they were to get to see each other again and how much they wanted to dance together.

Today Becky and I were talking again. She knows everything about our poly issues. She still likes Taniel. Today she was talking about how she had been looking on some dating sites for a boyfriend, but couldn't find anything that made her want to even send an email. We were talking about how I had considered setting Taniel up with someone so he'd get a feel for polyamory from the inside, not the outside. She joked about asking him out.

I pointed out that he wouldn't make much of a boyfriend because he was so terrible at communicating. Really, absolutely terrible. He's an engineer, if that helps explain things. Bob is an engineer too and so she's used to this.

I talked to Taniel tonight. I asked if he were interested in a physical-only relationship, or an emotionally-involved relationship with Becky. I know he'd be interested in physical only, as he has always been attracted to her. She is looking for a emotionally-involved relationship. He said he doesn't know. He's not sure he has enough time to devote to it. He doesn't know how it would be a good relationship idea (for us) for him to be gone even more. These are all valid points of discussion.

However, am I wrong for being slightly frustrated that I am not even allowed to talk to Scott, when Taniel is willing to consider the idea of himself being involved in a polyamorous relationship??? I keep hoping that if he gets in one, than he'll realize it was nothing to fear. However, this is my friend we're talking about. I don't want him to get involved with her, and be freaked out and act poorly, possibly hurting her (feelings, not physically).

Should I be helping them? Or stay out of it? (in which case no relationship will develop. She's the only person Taniel texts other than me, and he texts her about every other month.) She's a good match for him. I trust her and like her. Her husband Bob is in a poly relationship already, so she knows what is involved and what it feels like from the outside.

I'm confused.
 
If it were me, I'd at least open the lines of communication with him on this topic. It looks like there is potential for benefit and growth for all parties.
 
I should add that if he gets to date her, I would get to talk to my boyfriend again. So, I am motivated for this to work. But I don't want to push him and my friend into something for greedy reasons either.

I am not sure if they would work out of course, but the fact that he has always contemplated it made me think it may be worth a look...
 
midwestmama,
I am feeling your pain, it must be breaking your heart not to be able to speak to your beloved. I've been there. My husband is so afraid of losing me -- but when he restricts me from loving, he IS losing me, on the inside :( Fortunately we are in a better space today, but this journey has had its rough spots, for sure. Sometimes I truly wish I had never fallen for the other man -- but then I remember that old saying, "It is better to have loved and lost, than to never have loved at all." So true.

You are not alone -- so many of us here have gone through much of what you are experiencing. That's why I keep coming here -- it helps. Oh -- and my husband also gets freaked by some of the stuff on here! Everyone's situation is unique, and no one really knows what's best for you. I just like reading other people's stories and realizing I'm not alone. I'm learning to "take what you like, and leave the rest."

I'm a midwestern mama too -- in Ohio, maybe we're neighbors? :)
 
"And another important thing is that J. and I promised to never let our primary partners have the power to end our relationship. It only stops if J. and I want it to stop. J. and I needed that promise to feel safe, trusting and secure in our relationship."

Joyce,
I think that is beautiful. I never even considered making that promise with my OSO, but I've felt a desire to do so! How loving, to protect his feelings, too!

I have cut things off with him before, and left him sort of lost and wondering, missing me and wishing we could at least TALK. The hard part is, he and my husband are best friends, and I don't want them to have hard feelings if it is my husband who is struggling. I also don't want to make my husband look bad, like, "I'm feeling jealous and threatened by you, man".... I always want my OSO to think everything is ok, so he won't feel guilty about being with his best friend's wife! Sometimes I'm afraid my OSO will call it off, to avoid hurting his friend!

Communication really is important, but it gets awfully complex when there are more than 2 (which is hard enough, right?!)

I am a classic people-pleaser, so I have to resist worrying too much what is going on in everyone else's head! And yet, still be sensitive...

This is tough stuff! I really think poly calls you to a higher level of honesty. It is very challenging! But -- here I am, right?? Here WE are!! What a boat :)
 
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