How do I even start to explain??

[Journeyofawakening]

Thank you for all your responses. Especially GG and Mags, you two are so different but I appreciate both your POVs.

I'm feeling confused. He DOES want to come to counselling. He said he'll do anything to make our marriage work (??) and I said there's no point as he's made his ultimatum so there's nothing left to discuss. Apparently it wasn't an ultimatum but he said he's made his choice and he wants me to make my choice as I am free to do so.

 

[kdt26417]

Re (from GalaGirl):

"Outing her to her parents when she asked him to refrain? Threatening to take the kids away? Calling her mentally ill when she is not?"

Yeah, those are three big strikes in my book.

Re (from Journeyofawakening):

"He said he'll do anything to make our marriage work (??)"

Um yeah. His statement's not only false, it's silly. Nobody's willing to do *anything.*

 

[Magdlyn]

Thank you for all your responses. Especially GG and Mags, you two are so different but I appreciate both your POVs.

We aren't that different in how we live, we just write about it in a different way! haha

I'm feeling confused. He DOES want to come to counselling. He said he'll do anything to make our marriage work (??) and I said there's no point as he's made his ultimatum so there's nothing left to discuss. Apparently it wasn't an ultimatum but he said he's made his choice and he wants me to make my choice as I am free to do so.

He want to go to YOUR counselor now? He made an about-face? The man is clearly flailing. He doesn't want to lose his Stepford wife, so he's being a reactionary one minute, trying to be conciliatory the next.

He's like: she doesn't respect my authority! I will put my manly foot down, and also, tattle to her parents!

And then: oops, she gives me sex and had my kids and puts dinner on the table (I assume). I will lose my creature comforts and access to my kids! Better put on a show of "working on things."

It's sad. But you are in the right, dear. You are not his possession, his chattel. (Chattel is what women were considered in Biblical times. Yes, it means "cattle," like, you're his cow.)

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm feeling confused. He DOES want to come to counselling. He said he'll do anything to make our marriage work (??)

Work for WHO? Just him?

Now he wants to go to counseling? That could tell you that his ultimatum before of (pick closed marriage to me or pick poly) was mainly made as a threat to get you to fall into line.

Because if he was actually willing to work on things so the marriage could work for both? He could have said that in the first place and skip all this drama. Exercise some self control and plainly state what he is and is not up for without all the extra hooha.

I think he is starting to follow the pattern for cycle of abuse.

• Blow up with you parents and threaten to take the kids away, be fake contrite, let's see your counselor.
• Blow up (me or the highway!) freak out. Now be fake contrite again, wanting to go to work things out.

He says he loves you. I think he means he loves you as an extension of himself and/or for the services you provide. He loves what you do for him.

I do not think he loves you as a person in your own right. He has to be able to SEE you as your own person first before he can begin to love you as one.

If he sees you as an extension of him, then in his messed up logic (you having your own mind and thoughts) is a serious threat. Because it shows how NOT an extension of him you are.

I could be totally wrong... but I just don't get good vibes here.

I said there's no point as he's made his ultimatum so there's nothing left to discuss.

Correct. I hope you stand firm on that. Rather than more circular conversation draining you further? I hope you just move the conversation forward to part ways as fast and peacefully as possible. No longer compatible.

I have a feeling a round of "honey pie sweetie bunch" might come next. I think he is tactic hopping. He's tried to use social institutions and social prejudices (parents, kids, religion, you are crazy and need mental help) already to bully. He's keeping you off balance with the up and down.

I think I mentioned it before earlier in the thread, but I will list it again. Look at the sheet. Highlighter anything other behavior going on. Talk to your counselor about what you find. Someone can have a bad day and do one or two and apologize and not do it again. But a chronic pattern is something else!

I think what you have on your plate goes beyond internet anon forum help. I honestly do not think you have "normal -- one wants poly, one does not" on your hands. I think you have that PLUS a controlling spouse. The control issues are way bigger than that poly ones (to me.)

What used to work to keep you on his string is not working any more. So he might just play "sweetie pie/honey bunch" to buy time to figure out what tactic to try next. If he goes wacko, it might be "If I cannot have her, nobody can!" and that can go to very scary places.

I am very sorry you deal in this.

I am glad venting here helps, but that can only go so far. I strongly encourage you to talk to your counselor about how to leave safely. I think you need local level help with this.

Galagirl

 

[Journeyofawakening]

Honeypie didn't come next..."you're selfish and all you think about is yourself" is what came next and "all you're doing is hurting the people around you" and " I only want to come to the counselling so you don't make me out to be the bad guy"

 

[GalaGirl]

Ah. I figured it would be some "honey pie" first, then on to "you are ungrateful/don't appreciate me when I'm nice" stuff.

Like I said... he is tactic hopping. You know him better than I do and which would be his fav playgrounds. Print the PDF an highlighter that sheet. (Do not leave it laying around!) Then date which ones he does. It comes apparent really fast which are his favs. Better to do it at the library or at the counseling office in case there's key logger stuff on the home devices.

" I only want to come to the counselling so you don't make me out to be the bad guy"

If he values that? Him looking good? Maybe your exit strategy builds on that. Talk to you counselor.

Again, I am so sorry you deal in this.

Galagirl

 

[Nadya]

I am so sorry, Journey. Right now don't have words for your encouragement but sending you

(((HUGS)))

 

[IndieSolo]

He's just told me he doesn't see the point of going back to the counsellor. He wants to work on our marriage and has found a (Christian) marriage counsellor but he has told me I need to decide between him or polyamory as he will never have an 'open marriage' with me.

So, you tell him you don't see the point in going to the counselor he picked if he doesn't give the counselor you picked a chance. Tell him that in a true partnership, which is what you hope your marriage is, each person's viewpoint is at least heard with an open mind. He agreed to go to 5 sessions with your counselor and it is rather unkind of him to go back on his word to you.

Through all of this, has he still been expecting sex from you, as your Christian wifely duty?

It does seem that what he loves is the idea of a faithful Christian marriage and a dutiful wife, rather than seeing and loving you for who you are as an individual. I do feel you should start planning what you will do if you need to separate. Withdraw some money, start your own bank account in a different bank, talk to some lawyers (solicitors?), figure out where to go with your children, generally get ready.

 

[MightyMax]

315

So, you tell him you don't see the point in going to the counselor he picked if he doesn't give the counselor you picked a chance. Tell him that in a true partnership, which is what you hope your marriage is, each person's viewpoint is at least heard with an open mind. He agreed to go to 5 sessions with your counselor and it is rather unkind of him to go back on his word to you.

Through all of this, has he still been expecting sex from you, as your Christian wifely duty?

It does seem that what he loves is the idea of a faithful Christian marriage and a dutiful wife, rather than seeing and loving you for who you are as an individual. I do feel you should start planning what you will do if you need to separate. Withdraw some money, start your own bank account in a different bank, talk to some lawyers (solicitors?), figure out where to go with your children, generally get ready.

Who says the kids stay with her? This is nothing to do with who changed the marriage, but why the assumption that she takes the kids? Is it to punish him for not agreeing to change their entire marriage now she's come out as polyamorous? Or just because she is the female?

I agree that he should see out these five sessions. That's what he said he'd do and he should. However, if I were him, I wouldn't want to be counselled by someone who didn't understand the enormity of what I was being asked to accept. For one, I think JOA should promise not to allow partners around the children. I think that would show some form of compromise. I don't think it is unreasonable to not want the kids around a situation that is so far removed from what they are used to and it isn't necessary. Children can receive more than enough love in a traditional family. That's not to say I think poly families are wrong, I just don't think they are necessary for a child to experience a extended and supportive network.

Galagirl, didn't you "suspend" polyamory in your relationship whilst you bring up children and take care of other responsibilities? If so, you must understand that sometimes family needs to be the priority.

 

[IndieSolo]

I simply suggested having a plan, should the need arise. Journey has stated that she will not let her husband take the kids from her, and having a safe place to go with them is prudent, whether she has full custody or shared custody. Women are usually at a disadvantage in divorce if they do not at least do some preparation in advance.

 

[GalaGirl]

If so, you must understand that sometimes family needs to be the priority.

Yes. I do.

I just do not see how the husband stonewalling or bullying the wife demonstrates him prioritizing / promoting the health of his family and the health of the family members.

I think they could be hitting the 4 horsemen.

He says he will only go to counseling so he doesn't look bad. Since he is not going to try to improve or resolve anything? I think they are best off disbanding the unhappy Union.

Galagirl

 

[MightyMax]

The fact that her partner did not know she was poly going into their marriage means that his reaction to her wanting polyamory is even more understanding. If they have a problem connecting and she's doing this to make up for the shortcomings, that's an even bigger issue. Her spouse is not up for poly and never signed up for a non monogamous relationship. He may also feel he is being bullied into accepting one.

Most monogamous people would also refuse to get into a discussion about opening their relationship, just like most poly people would refuse to get into a discussion about closing it.

 

[Magdlyn]

The fact that her partner did not know she was poly going into their marriage means that his reaction to her wanting polyamory is even more understanding. If they have a problem connecting and she's doing this to make up for the shortcomings, that's an even bigger issue. Her spouse is not up for poly and never signed up for a non monogamous relationship. He may also feel he is being bullied into accepting one.

Max, Journey is far from being a bully. She admits she is having a hard time standing up for her new insights about her reality. Going to marriage counseling (with a trained and certified, secular counselor) is NOT bullying behavior. Sheesh.

Maybe he FEELS like he is being bullied, but that's on him. I think he's more the bully in this recent behavior of flip flopping.

Most monogamous people would also refuse to get into a discussion about opening their relationship, just like most poly people would refuse to get into a discussion about closing it.

And I am sure you can cite a study on this?

 

[GalaGirl]

The fact that her partner did not know she was poly going into their marriage means that his reaction to her wanting polyamory is even more understanding

I can understand him feeling surprised, shocked, bewildered, etc. I am not unsympathetic to that.

I just don't think him reacting with stonewalling, bullying and drama stuff was the best way to go if he prioritizes the health of family and the health of individual members of the family.

He could have taken a time out to do self care, calm down, and then firmly respond with where he stands without the drama stuff. She didn't even know before the marriage herself.

Her spouse is not up for poly and never signed up for a non monogamous relationship.

Correct.

He may also feel he is being bullied into accepting one.

He has the right to have his own preferences. He could say "No, thank you. I won't do that. If this is something you need, we need to break up. Then you can be free to go do it in your life. I am free from it in my life."

I think that answer could work for both a Mono being asked to Open or a Poly being asked to Close when they don't want to do that.

Galagirl

 

[KC43]

As best I can tell, Journey isn't asking her husband to accept a polyamorous relationship at the moment. She's asking him to accept HER as a polyamorous PERSON. She mentioned something early in the thread about another man she had feelings for, I think, but since that point, it sounds like she's only trying to get her husband to listen to and hopefully understand how she feels and who she is, not trying to get him to say "Okay, honey, have fun with your boyfriend."

She has asked him to go to marital counseling to try to improve their marriage and their communication. He committed to doing so.

He has responded by telling her that she's mentally ill because mentally healthy people are, apparently, monogamous; that she's been influenced by Satan; that she's a bad person. He has also responded by outing her to her parents when specifically asked not to, and by threatening to take her children and possibly sever her parental rights. And now he has reneged on his promise to go to a set number of counseling sessions with her, then insisted that they go to a "Christian counselor" instead, then said he would go back to Journey's counselor "so you can't say I'm the bad guy."

Journey isn't being a bully. Journey isn't trying to take anything away from her marriage or children. She isn't asking for another relationship. She's asking only to be accepted as someone who is *capable* of having more than one romantic relationship.

Her husband, in my perspective, *is* being a bully, and as GalaGirl said, he's crossing the emotional abuse line. Some of the things Journey says her husband has been saying are word for word things Alt and Country's father said to me throughout our marriage, and especially when I was trying to end it. And polyamory wasn't even a tiny blip on my radar at that point; our marriage fell apart because I was unwilling to be his verbal punching bag anymore. Poly didn't become a thing in my life until three years into my marriage to Hubby (who not only accepted but fully embraced it, and was the one who explained to *me* that I was polyamorous and that was okay.)

But Alt and Country's father, even after I left him, continued blaming *me* for his behavior ("I only said that because you made me angry, so don't make me angry again and I won't say it again" instead of "I said that because I was angry, and I shouldn't have said it", for example), and saying things like I was just trying to make him look bad, I only didn't like our marriage because I was mentally ill and needed medication, I couldn't manage without him and he would take our kids away because I was too fucked up to take care of them, etc. He once, after we'd separated, threatened to call Child Protective on me because I kept a vegetarian diet... even though Alt and Country were still eating meat.

Sound familiar? If you read back through this thread, it will.

Journey is not the primary problem here.

 

[Needingadvice22]

Re (from GalaGirl):


Yeah, those are three big strikes in my book.

Re (from Journeyofawakening):


Um yeah. His statement's not only false, it's silly. Nobody's willing to do *anything.*

I just called my wife out on this as well and I agree. She always says, "I'll do anything to make this marriage work!" And I know for a fact if I said, "OK, bend over, and do anal" she would instantly say no way in hell! LMAO. (Sorry if that was crude I like to use absurdity to prove a point sometimes)

Not only that, but she will say that and then turn around and pretty much do nothing to save our marriage. Anytime I ask for any sort of special date, or time to discus things, or whatever I get stonewalled. And when I try to have sex with her I'm still batting less than 50%. Her words just sound hollow to me. She really wouldn't do "anything". She really doesn't do much at all to try to save our relationship. I'm an actions guy. I'm far from perfect, but my words are followed by actions. I would never say I would do anything because reality is that I wouldn't. Even though I think she really wants me to say it and it would probably make her feel better, it's not true. If he really said that then I would call him out on it. Ask him to be more realistic. What are you willing to do? What aren't you willing to do? And then make a plan. That's what I plan to do when my wife and I talk tonight.

A question though since I haven't had a chance yet to read all of this. Is poly important enough to end this relationship? If he says he will do all sorts of things but he won't do that, will that be a deal breaker? I know for me personally, I don't require at this point at least, for her to agree to it. Even if she did, I probably would spend the next few months focusing on her before venturing out. What I want more than anything is to be listened to and understood. I want to be able to openly communicate without fear of being yelled at or told I'm crazy. I don't want to be stonewalled. I would like for her to see that what I'm suggesting isn't a lack of love, but a higher and more evolved form of love. An unselfish love. She doesn't have to be ready to say yes. She just has to at least show that she is seeking to understand it.

 

[kdt26417]

Well said Needingadvice22.

 

[River]

As best I can tell, Journey isn't asking her husband to accept a polyamorous relationship at the moment. She's asking him to accept HER as a polyamorous PERSON. .

I agree.

Interestingly, yesterday I read an article whose author seems to subscribe to a theory of identity in which persons are not really polyamorous unless they've been living a polyamorous way of life -- in their actions. The author said...

Despite my interlocutor’s unfortunate attempt to use poly identity as an excuse for shitty treatment of his girlfriend, the conversation did raise an interesting question for me. Are some people “poly at heart” while others are fundamentally monogamous? Is poly something you are, or something you do?

As an academic who’s read too much Judith Butler, I tend to consider action and identity in the same breath. I think the actions we perform over time become our identities. There’s no “deep down”, there’s no “at heart” – rather, if you act mean all the time, then you are mean; and if you act kindly, you are kind.

from - http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/apr/25/polyamory-more-than-one-lover-emer-otoole

I can't help wondering if the author of that article would agree with us that Journey is a polyamorous person, even though she does not live within a polyamorous relationsihp agreement in her marriage with her husband. Surely, Journey has chosen to be honest and open about her feelings, thoughts and needs with her husband. So she's "acting" on that aspect of polyamory -- the honesty part. But is that enough to amount to a polyamorous "identity"? Is desire alone enough to decide such matters?

How many aspects of what we call polyamoroy must be present in a person's life before we can rightfully call them "polyamorous"?

Was I "gay" or "bisexual" before I had ever had any sexual experience whatsoever? Was my attraction to both boys and girls when I was a boy (prior to any sexual experience on my part) enough to determine my "identity" as a bi man (or, rather, boy -- at the time)?

Personallly, I tend to side with those who think desire is enough to determine identity on such matters. But I'm open to discussion!

If we don't already have a thread on this topic / theme, I propose we create one -- rather than letting it take over the present thread.

Judith Butler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Butler

 

[Needingadvice22]

I am with you River. Actions have little to do with it. If you are a man and desire men, then you are either gay or bi. You don't actually have to have a few sexual encounters to make it so. Having said that, it's also possible someone could think they are poly at heart, try a few poly relationships and figure out they very much prefer monogamy.

 

[River]

I am with you River. Actions have little to do with it. If you are a man and desire men, then you are either gay or bi.

Or pan (pansexual)....

... omni-sexual? ... omni-amorous?

The same article author asked, "Is poly something you are, or something you do?

Noun or verb?

Chicken or egg?