I feel like I'm being put in the wrong box and would appreciate other's perspectives

[shy guy]

Just to offer an interpretation of how your wife might be feeling:

For her, sexual relationships or sexual flirting interactions are easy and fun and do not need to have strong emotions involved. Emotional relationships are harder and more complex for her to find and develop, and she is happy having only one romantic emotional relationship (you). Her online sexual banter offers her the sexual variety she craves without having to have actual in-person sex (or emotional involvement) with anyone else, and it allows her to build up her arousal all day long and then bring all that sexual tension home to you.

Because emotional connections are so rare (and so rarely needed) for her, she is struggling with your online emotional friendship because she imagines it is a threat to her relationship with you.

You, meanwhile, view her online interactions as empty and shallow, which I don't think is fair to her (although I understand why you think that). It would be empty and shallow if she were seeking emotional connections online, but she's not. She's seeking sexual fulfilment for herself (and by extension, for you in your relationship with her, in that you get to experience the ultimate benefits of her sexual tension). To me, online sex seems like a safe and relatively harmless way for her to experience sexual variety and thrills. The men she chats with are probably seeking the same thing she is, online sex without deep emotional involvement, so she isn't hurting anyone or being irresponsible.

You recognize that you aren't interested in casual sex/online sex, so what you'd like for yourself is a meaningful online friendship. That's certainly not too much to ask, and you are right to stand firm that you won't give up your friendship. Your wife should not be involved in it and should not have to interact with your online friend, anymore than you need to chat with her DM dudes.

But definitely reassure her that your need for emotional friendship is not be a threat to her, anymore than her online chats are a threat to you. You just have greater emotional needs than she does, just like she has greater sexual needs than you do.

I want to point out that I never put down her online relationships. I spoke that way here to explain my perspective.

So, you're mostly correct. 95% of this is spot on and you give solid advice. I am trying to be supportive as well as understanding that this is coming from a place of insecurity, not malice. The 5% or whatever, the part I want to clarify, is: I don't view her interests as hollow FOR HER, in any way, nor do I speak to her that way. I very much support her and encourage her.

The point I was trying to make there, however poorly, is that I feel she risked our relationship by keeping this from me. I found out she was doing this by looking at her OnlyFans, which I rarely do because she sends me anything she knows I'd enjoy, anyway. One day I did, and she said it had been about a year. I'm saying that she is acting like she can't trust me, like I have some secret agenda or something, or maybe she thinks I've changed. I really don't know yet. We are still unpacking this.

I very much feel hurt that when she had something that violated our relationship, I gave her compassion and tried to understand and incorporate her needs into our life. With this, I've been straightforward and honest from the onset; I communicated openly. And now this is at risk, leaving me feeling resentful, which I'm trying to work through. But I don't tell her that it's meaningless or empty.

On the other hand, she gets on to me all the time lately for being emotional. It's become upsetting. And again, we are trying to figure this out in therapy. We are doing some worksheets. So far, we've been finding some middle ground, but I'm afraid it will be some time before I'm given empathy in return.

I really appreciate this response too, because it makes me feel like there are people here that I could ask questions of, if needed in the future, to better help me understand her if I get off track. I really appreciate that feeling of possible support. Thank you.

 

[shy guy]

Since you've got two women here, can we please give them nicknames, for ease of understanding? I'd call your friend April, and your wife May. You can use other names if you'd like, of course.

Do you think that just because you get along with May, it means you shouldn't need a friend?? Good grief. We all need friends, no matter how well-matched we may be with a partner or spouse. Do you actually think you shouldn't need a friend just because your marriage is kinda okay?

You absolutely should have all the friends you want. And I'd add in, friends you can chat with online, since you're home alone on a ranch with just animals for company most of the time, are even more important. May is gone to work (I assume she works an 8 hour day) and has a 4 hour commute. That's at least 12 hours a day you're alone. Why shouldn't you get to have a friend? Is May so controlling that she thinks she should be the ONLY person in your life, even while she's off chatting with men for X hours a week, edging them and herself, masturbating, just for fun? And she's otherwise some kind of internet celebrity as well, you've implied. But you can't have one good friend?

Just a note for understanding. You may have made a common spelling mistake that confused me. You said you wanted a "complimentary" partner or relationship. I thought you mean someone who gave you compliments, praise, approval, that sort of thing. But now I am thinking you meant "complementary": combining in such a way as to enhance or emphasize the qualities of another or each other.

And above, about having every right to have friends, since you're in an ethically non-monogamous relationship, you should also be able to have sex partners/lovers if you desire.

By the way, is your wife edging with men while she's at work? Or when she's home, in the house with you, but ignoring you?

Lol, that's actually a really good point. I should've thought of that, and will in the future. Yes, May and April works great, thank you. I loved that lol.

And I actually did mean complementary in your first interpretation. Although, the second does work. Regardless, it was not a typo. My wife compliments me, but it's things that I don't personally know what to do with. My self esteem comes from who I am, what I've overcome, my drive and determination, my ability to overcome everything that's ever been thrown at me.

I know I'm a good-looking guy. I'm certainly not ugly or anything. And I am a big strong man. I know plenty of females are attracted to me, and plenty of men over the years have said they'd like to have my build. But I do not get anything at all out of being told I'm sexy, for example. It does nothing for me.

April complements me often, and it's always something that actually means something to me, because it's always about my intellect, not my appearance. She's said I'm handsome before, but she's never been like, "Omg your shoulders," or something, so it actually finds a home.

My wife puts so much value into appearance and looks in how she deals with me, and that's just not where I personally get reassurance or feelings of embraced attraction.

Does this make sense? It's a bit hard for me to explain, simply because I don't want to make my wife seems shallow. She's very much not. But she seems focused on building up my appearance because that's what she wants. I can understand and accept that, but I'd like to feel it's understood on her end, too.

As far as edging, it's not an all the time every day thing, and she certainly shuts most of this out when she's home. Her job is one of those "be present regardless what there is to do." I've spent the day there. It's a box, so I get why she would want distractions. On a slow day, it would be staring at a wall, for the most part. There have only been a handful of what I'd call violations of that, and those were far between and nothing recent.

What's hard is that she gets terribly upset that I'm talking to this person, initiates a fight, then just grabs her vibrator and off to work she goes. And it's like, well, that's how you deal with your issues, but what about me? Where's my outlet? I had one, and it's being attacked, but you don't even consider that when you leave for the day? I'm just here, as a highly emotional person, without anywhere to put that? I still write and put effort and energy into my day to spend emotional energy, as well, but it feels unfair and it's hurtful. She can post one picture and get a hundred compliments in twenty minutes. I get a hundred compliments a year. Not to compare, but I feel it should be at least considered.

Thank you again for your insight, and I'll carry on the nicknames from here.

 

[shy guy]

I've just read your original post again and I have a question. Why are you mediating when they have a direct line of contact with each other?

Could you explain this a little more please? Who's the last "she" in this paragraph?

This is hard to explain, but here goes.

About a year ago is when I found out my wife was doing the edging thing, and she opened up to let me see some of these conversations she was having. Like, for the first time, I got to see and read her conversations. I was absolutely comfortable with the banter and photos, etc. My issue was just finding out about all this and never having an opportunity to be part of this. Like, I would've enjoyed something virtual with her plenty of times and had tried. I said so. She said I don't do it in the right way. I said, well then, help me.

So our solution was to join Fet so we could use that as a couples experience together. I had a very hard time finding someone I wanted to talk to. It all felt empty, and my wife wasn't even going on there or helping in any way. She would just tell me to try, just try, fail, learn, try, whatever.

Fine, I get it. But I had zero interest in any of these people. Finally, after three months, I said fuck it and tried with the only female I could have a somewhat normal conversation with. The "sexting" was a miserable chore. I told the girl I came. I didn't. I wasn't even hard, it was purely exercise. And she immediately said she wanted me to cum again. I was so over it at that point. But I did exactly what my wife said, and that night I showed her. She got jealous. For three days we talked about this. I didn't want this bit to begin with.

Anyway, I'm pretty much done with Fet at that point, but I get a message from a lady (April) and she had just been cheated on by her fiancé or boyfriend or something. We had a connection right out the gate. Our conversations led to literature. We started recommending books to one another and discussing them.

It honestly felt a lot like the ideal high school scenario I would've loved to have had then. Someone to sit in the library with. I had a terrible existence as a child and teen, just so much trauma, so this spoke to me. If we ever talked about meeting, it was like, to get coffee or go to the bookstore. Very mild, wholesome stuff. We did discuss sexual topics, but never once did we exchange nudes or anything along those lines.

One night, say, four months ago, my wife and I are going through photos on my phone, and a picture of April was in my gallery. She had sent it to me. It was a picture of her at work, just like a "Hey, hope you're having a good day," type text, so I had saved it to make as her contact photo, but forgot all about it. For two weeks afterwards, my wife is telling me I need to try to text her by talking about cumming on her glasses. I'm like, that's not at all what this is. I was unheard. She would say it again. She eventually let it go.

Then in September, I reached a boiling point, because my wife kept telling me to tell her a sexual fantasy that wasn't about her and wasn't emotional. I couldn't do it. This is a recurring thing, to the point I felt she was getting into me for not being able to tell her a purely sexual fantasy. I don't have any, and it felt dishonest to make one up, but I did keep trying to think of something. I couldn't. One night this turned into a fight, and it seemed at the root was that she wanted me to have something purely sexual to alleviate her not having anything else emotional on her end.

I had a terrible week that week. April noticed I was texting different (I never once and never have gone to her with my marital problems, never) and she sent me this extremely nice, supportive message. That night I was feeling better and shared with my wife why, because she took notice of it. This is the point I referred to as opening the door, because she asked to message her and I thought it might be productive. She seemed positive about it. My thought was, here's an example of what helped me, but instead it was an example of what she wasn't doing or something. But it took several days for her to morph and for me to grasp what happened.

Things have been shit since. She sent April a message on Fet, this long, well-written sincere message about how it's okay that we are talking, it's okay with her, but if we ever want to have sex, she'd need to be there, meaning my wife, etc.

Well, that's where this was going, first of all. Second of all, she deactivates her Fet right after. I found out because April messaged me and asked if my wife blocked her. After a few days, my wife rejoins and insists she's worked through it. Probably a week later, she talks to me about how this could potentially be a sister wife, just all this stuff that really did not sit well with me, at all.

I wasn't sure how to proceed, as now this relationship is completely different. They both say things, like they had a great talk, but I'm now on the outside. I have no idea what those talks were. My wife tells me that their communication is leading to a place where it needs to be between them. Still no idea what that means.

April says she's thought about adding me as a "crushing on," on Fet. We both decided the D/s label of "Protector and Protected" were more fitting. So we did that, and my wife said ten times how cute it was.

After that, all shit. And I could go through three more weeks of this drama, but I think you obviously see what I'm getting at here.

Now April isn't messaging her anymore, because she feels like my wife has made her feel like a potential homewrecker. April has been respectful of our relationship 100%, from the beginning, and only leaned into the kink shit once my wife took the reins. They are no longer speaking, so my wife takes that as she's trying to weasel into our relationship.

It's a shitshow. Everything about this hurts me. It all keeps manifesting itself in my wife telling me if a guy disrespected me, she'd drop him immediately, and me saying that's not what happened. And it just keeps being a cycle.

She did a half session one-on-one with our therapist earlier in the week, and for that night, it helped. The next morning she starting talking about me needing to find more sexual-only relationships and it led to a fight. I'm crying as she's leaving for work and she grabs her vibrator and batteries and leaves.

I wrote this post that afternoon, after a day of searching for some type of outlet. I have to say, the support here has been amazing. I have been so fortunate to have found this forum.

One pertinent note. When my wife reactivated her account, she posted this thing about how I'm collecting females and how, while I'm doing that, she'd like a male friend to play with. April saw this and immediately was questioning if that was my intention, and told me she had no intention being part of a collection.

It's a mess. I would've done it so much differently. I've never been in a situation anything like this. I've never cheated. I don't lie. None of this is in my wheelhouse, but I'm certainly getting a crash course in avoidance tactics.

As for your other question, my wife is convinced April wants more from me. My wife doesn't understand she pushed her away, and any effort trying to explain leads my wife to hear one thing to take objection to, and it's a fight all over again. Like I'm attacking her. It's not good.

I know there's so much work to be done here, but we've started.

Last night was good. We had a good discussion about how we see fidelity and had a good dinner, some positive physical contact. Hoping that runs into today and we can start to unpack all this. Being able to have this outlet is allowing me to set aside feeling heard for the time being, which is helping me not to start the cycle over by needing to get something out with her. I understand this isn't a long-term solution, but it's helping right now.

Last note, she said after therapy (and in therapy, apparently) that she wishes I would just fuck other women and never talk to them again. I told her I see sex as an exchange. It's always mutual, in my mind, if it's worth doing. She's taken a stand on that this week, that my focus should be on fucking random people without emotion, like at 45 I'm going to just become that person. How does one even begin such a journey? I have no idea.

Hope this helps. lol A lot of finger words.

 

[shy guy]

On the idea that she has a "for me, not for thee" attitude, I think we have to be realistic and honest about the differences in what you want.

As you said, you want one big relationship. You've chosen someone in their 20s to do so. People in their 20s are at a life stage where they are either deciding what type of lifestyle they want as an older adult, or they are actively working on it. Things like marriage and kids. Moving to where they want to be, things like that.

That's a totally different kettle of fish to having a casual sexual encounter with someone. If one if her guys move away, he chances that they'll need to work out a schedule for visitation is minimal. Whereas you want to actually build a life with someone else.

So she isn't actually saying "For me, but not for thee", she's saying "That kind of thing shouldn't be for either of us, but what I'm doing is low enough risk for it to be okay for both of us. So do what I do."

You might want/need more than what she does, but you have to understand that it is very much further away from the relationship you've built.

That's a huge thing. The potential for disruption to your home life is much bigger. You are risking a lot of the stability you've built up by doing this. Inviting full actual relationships into your life is much different to casual sex with others.

Thank you for the perspective. I only used the word "big" in contradiction to her always saying her exchanges are meaningless. Big in this scenario means talking to one person more than a day. I absolutely do not want an entirely separate relationship. Maybe this is part of our communication breakdown though, so I do appreciate this. It's something I hadn't considered. Maybe I'm making it seem that way to her, in my defensive moments. It's worth exploring. Thank you.

 

[shy guy]

This is really somewhat confusing. You are talking on a polyamory forum about having a mere friend-- or does this friendship contain erotica? Is there a plan to take it physical? I still don't understand your declared intent on that.

I think your need for more emotional depth, friendship and intimacy is very valid. Anyone would be lonely being alone for 12 hours a day with no close friendships. You definitely need people around.
It also sounds, from what you wrote about your wife, that you are lacking emotionality, even with your wife. The marriage is good, but doesn't quite meet your need for depth.

Considering all of the above, I also think your wife is correct to be concerned. The probability that you'll fall in love with this April lady who is currently your main source of emotional connection and support is very, very high. Can you see that? Not everyone can have a bestie of the opposite sex, especially if they come at a time of increased loneliness/vulnerability, especially if non-monogamy isn't completely off the table.

You "catching feelings" and acting on them would take your relationship full-on poly, with all the complications it brings. I don't think you and your wife have talked through that possibility thoroughly enough.
If you want to keep April as your friend and not risk shaking your marriage's values to their roots, I think you must 1) take on a monogamous mindset with her and commit to keeping it strictly platonic, no sex talk, no flirting, no fantasies, 2) find more friends, so that she's not the only one standing out as THE person you can talk to.

You're absolutely right, and yesterday we discovered this aspect between us, as well. I described it in this way: I will never entertain the curiosity of another female beyond the level of a first date, and saying things like, "I love you" is completely out of the question. That seemed to be comfortable to her, so I am moving forward with that in mind. But I do absolutely agree with you. Everything you said is spot on.

As for the first question, I don't honestly know the full answer. I think it's got several layers. But the polyamory forum is because we've been using tools from polyamory to communicate better about our needs for awhile. It's been clear to both of us for awhile that, until we are in a different position, at least, some outside influence would be beneficial for us. So while we haven't completely opened our marriage, it is something that was actively being discussed.

Appreciate the questions to better clarify. Thank you.

 

[shy guy]

I'm going to add something I've been putting some thought into, which is-- why do I internally compare her edging to me having a friendship? Or even an online relationship, if that were to come one day; an emotional relationship, regardless.

The reason is because she talks about how that will affect our relationship, that being purely sexual does not. I would actually agree with that, on the surface, but here's my issue.

Her online play absolutely affects our relationship at times. If she needs her needs fulfilled and there's some negative in there, maybe the guy disappoints her, or the schedules don't align, or she maybe gets in an argument, she's in a bad mood. She's snippy with me and doesn't even share what happened for a few days. That's disruptive.

Same on the other side. If she's really into a guy, she's checking her messages all night, on her phone more, and her phone buzzes all damn night whenever she posts anything. The most hurtful so far was one night she rode me, we came, and as she's getting off of me, she reaches for her phone and starts talking to some dude on Reddit. Like, how is that not bringing these people into our relationship? But me talking to someone about my day while she's at work is somehow more damaging? I don't buy it. I just can't seem to get past the imbalance there, and even the willingness to look at this as an issue.

Having said all this, the examples I have aren't common, a couple days a month, at most. But it's certainly done harm, at times, with our closeness, intimacy, etc.

This is something I'm still working through, but thought it might help the conversation along. I've already got great response though, so thank you, all of you.

 

[Magdlyn]

You say your wife May brings a vibrator to work, with extra batteries. She drives two hours to a city to sit "in a box" where sometimes the work is so slow that she would be staring at the wall if she weren't masturbating and sexting with men...

I have to ask, is May a "sex cam girl"? Who brings a vibrator to work and sits in a room alone? Is she locked in? There are no coworkers around? She has an OnlyFans, so I assume she makes money doing that. Is she also sex camming for a living?

If I am right, going on to sexting with men (for free) would make perfect sense. She is sexually oriented, not emotionally oriented. Sex and emotions, for her, do not go together. In fact, you have an emotional relationship with April. You talk about literature. All May can think about that is "Cum on her glasses!" Um. Ew. I'm not trying to kink shame, but that really disses the real friendship you have with April.

Can you please clarify? Is May a paid sex worker for a living, entirely?

Next, if April is crushing on you to the point that she wants to declare that publically, this HAS moved from friendship to a romantic/sexual relationship. One can crush on a friend and keep it a secret if one wants to remain just friends. If one declares a crush not just to this "friend," but also wants to tell thousands/millions of people on a popular social media app that one is crushing, well, it's an adult relationship, no longer "just friends." Can't you see that?

Despite the therapy you and May are doing, I fear you can't see the forest for the trees here. You want a deeper adult relationship than what May offers. You want someone that reminds you of the deep emotional and intellectual kind of thing you craved way back in high school, 30 years ago, and you feel you've found it in April.

Thoughts?

 

[shy guy]

You say your wife May brings a vibrator to work, with extra batteries. She drives two hours to a city to sit "in a box" where sometimes the work is so slow that she would be staring at the wall if she weren't masturbating and sexting with men...

I have to ask, is May a "sex cam girl"? Who brings a vibrator to work and sits in a room alone? Is she locked in? There are no coworkers around? She has an OnlyFans, so I assume she makes money doing that. Is she also sex camming for a living?

If I am right, going on to sexting with men (for free) would make perfect sense. She is sexually oriented, not emotionally oriented. Sex and emotions, for her, do not go together. In fact, you have an emotional relationship with April. You talk about literature. All May can think about that is "Cum on her glasses!" Um. Ew. I'm not trying to kink shame, but that really disses the real friendship you have with April.

Can you please clarify? Is May a paid sex worker for a living, entirely?

Next, if April is crushing on you to the point that she wants to declare that publically, this HAS moved from friendship to a romantic/sexual relationship. One can crush on a friend and keep it a secret if one wants to remain just friends. If one declares a crush not just to this "friend," but also wants to tell thousands/millions of people on a popular social media app that one is crushing, well, it's an adult relationship, no longer "just friends." Can't you see that?

Despite the therapy you and May are doing, I fear you can't see the forest for the trees here. You want a deeper adult relationship than what May offers. You want someone that reminds you of the deep emotional and intellectual kind of thing you craved way back in high school, 30 years ago, and you feel you've found it in April.

Thoughts?

Making me think. I like it.

Okay, so first, yes, she did do sex work more, previously, but her job now is more of a career and produces far more income. The OF and things have become much more about her sexual health than a financial need at this point. Having said this, I have my own online exposure and we do still produce content together. The difference is mostly that it's something we do together, for me and for her. It is a couples activity she can then use to get attention from. A lure, to put it plainly. So, you're mostly right, but the OF is not something we couldn't do without, whereas her career very much is.

Now to the hard question. Yes, when you put it like that, I can see that. But I'll be honest in that, no, I did not until just now. My knee-jerk reaction is that my wife's interjection prompted that. But I'd need to think that through. So I'm going to, and then respond once I have a bit.

I really am grateful for that there. That's a perspective I hadn't put much weight into, I think mostly because I didn't bring it to the table, so why defend it? But on my wife's end, that's irrelevant, it shows intent. That does change things. You are correct. Thank you.

 

[Tinwen]

I missed that part where April has a crush and wants to even make it public. Definitely not just a friendship then. So much text in this thread...

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm not the one dealing with it. You are the one actually THERE. But reading your stuff... something about your wife's vibe seems off.

I could be totally wrong. I'm just taking a stab in the dark in case anything hits. If anything does hit, consider it with your therapist. If it's a wash, discard.

On the other hand, she gets on to me all the time lately for being emotional. It's become upsetting.

So, she doesn't get or understand emotions?

I'm afraid it will be some time before I'm given empathy in return.

She is missing all, or some, of the different types of empathy, or struggles with it?

What's hard is that she gets terribly upset that I'm talking to this person, initiates a fight, then just grabs her vibrator and off to work she goes.

She picks fights or masturbates for the dopamine high, seeking stimulus?

The most hurtful so far was one night she rode me, we came, and as she's getting off of me, she reaches for her phone and starts talking to some dude on Reddit.

Is this a stimulus-seeking thing again here? Sex and orgasm and texting, and all that at once?

For two weeks afterwards, my wife is telling me I need to try to text her by talking about cumming on her glasses. I'm like, that's not at all what this is. I was unheard. She would say it again. She eventually let it go.

Like, she has a bee in her bonnet, a hyper-fixation for a time?

Could your wife be autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, or some other kind of neurodivergent?

Could you? Could you two be an autism/ADHD couple?

The most hurtful so far was one night she rode me, we came and as she's getting off of me, she reaches for her phone abd starts talking to some dude on Reddit. Like how is that not bringing these people into our relationship?

Well... are you all actual people to May in the first place? I know that sounds weird. But I have a narcissist in my family. Other people are not "actual people" to them, they are extensions of them, like we're all little puppets or dollies or something they own/control. They are the "star" of the show called "This is My Life," and everyone else is like a non-player character (NPC) in it.

But me talking to someone about my day while she's at work is somehow more damaging? I don't buy it, and I just can't seem to get past the imbalance there, and even the willingness to look at this as an issue.

You talking to someone else might mean you aren't "playing right" to May, if you are supposed to be a NPC/supporting cast. May is the "star of the show." How dare you have ideas and thoughts and feelings of your own or live your life, like you get to have a life movie too? You are supposed to be a dolly who does what May says you should in HER life movie.

Is any of that going on here?

Could May have a personality disorder? Maybe this traits list will help you name some of what you are experiencing:

Top 100 Traits & Behaviors — Out of the FOG | Personality Disorders, Narcissism, NPD, BPD

of Personality-Disordered Individuals

outofthefog.website

I'm kind of wondering if May is doing push-pull or splitting with you and/or April.

Maybe that's part of the puzzle that makes things difficult here. This isn't JUST hard jobs with long hours, communication issues, or dealing with how much of an open marriage this is or not.

You might have other layers not yet identified that are exacerbating things.

GG

 

[Bobbi]

you are right to stand firm that you won't give up your friendship. Your wife should not be involved in it and should not have to interact with your online friend, anymore than you need to chat with her DM dudes.

This!!!

Spot on. If Wife is contacting friend and it makes Friend uncomfortable, Friend can block Wife. There's no reason for them to be talking. You say she is just a good friend and that's all you want (maybe for now), then so be it. Wife needs to trust YOU, not Friend. If you are the man you say you are, then you'll hear Wife's concerns, support and reassure her, and be on the lookout for Friend trying to get you all to herself. Set and enforce boundaries with Friend and if it appears this turns out to be true, then you can end it for valid reasons.

Wife needs to talk to you if she sees your behavior towards her changing or if the friendship is actually affecting your relationship. But her thoughts, imagination and fears are hers to deal with. You don't interfere with her style of connection and she doesn't interfere with yours. Otherwise, it all has to end. You can't have it be okay for one but not the other. Just because you do it differently doesn't affect that.

 

[Bobbi]

One day I did, and she said it had been about a year. I'm saying that she is acting like she can't trust me, like I have some secret agenda or something,

People tend to project. She hid this from you so she thinks you are hiding from her. She needs to look at her own actions and see how THAT is the truth of the situation.

I know my values and my integrity and so do my partners. If they ever questioned me unreasonably, my first thought would be that they are doing something they know they shouldn't. I've never been wrong.

 

[MeeraReed]

I never put down her online relationships. I spoke that way here to explain my perspective.

95% of this is spot on and you give solid advice. I am trying to be supportive as well as understanding that this is coming from a place of insecurity, not malice. The 5% or whatever, the part I want to clarify, is: I don't view her interests as hollow FOR HER, in any way, nor do I speak to her that way. I very much support her and encourage her.

Thanks for clarifying! That makes sense.

The point I was trying to make there, however poorly, is that I feel she risked our relationship by keeping this from me. I found out she was doing this by looking at her OnlyFans, which I rarely do because she sends me anything she knows I'd enjoy, anyway. One day I did, and she said it had been about a year. I'm saying that she is acting like she can't trust me, like I have some secret agenda or something, or maybe she thinks I've changed. I really don't know yet. We are still unpacking this.

I actually forgot that you'd written that she was doing the online stuff in secret first. That's not okay, especially that she kept it from you/was dishonest about it to you, and now she's trying to restrict your relationship that you were honest about.

I very much feel hurt that when she had something that violated our relationship, I gave her compassion and tried to understand and incorporate her needs into our life. With this, I've been straightforward and honest from the onset; I communicated openly. And now this is at risk, leaving me feeling resentful, which I'm trying to work through. But I don't tell her that it's meaningless or empty.

Yes, she is being very unfair to you.

On the other hand, she gets on to me all the time lately for being emotional. It's become upsetting. And again, we are trying to figure this out in therapy. We are doing some worksheets. So far, we've been finding some middle ground, but I'm afraid it will be some time before I'm given empathy in return.

 

[ref2018]

Your wife just has no clue about where she ends and where you begin. It's like she considers you as an extension of herself and not a separate person. I would suggest therapy, but you guys are already in it. I wish your wife would come here and explain everything to us so we could understand better

Well... are you all actual people to May in the first place? I know that sounds weird. But I have a narcissist in my family. Other people are not "actual people" to them, they are extensions of them, like we're all little puppets or dollies or something they own/control. They are the "star" of the show called "This is My Life," and everyone else is like a non-player character (NPC) in it.

 

[Magdlyn]

She did do sex work more, previously, but her job now is more of a career and produces far more income. The OF and things have become much more about her sexual health than a financial need at this point.

So you're saying she is not a paid sex worker now, except for her OnlyFans account, but even that she just does for pleasure. The money is just a side benefit. She has another job that pays better than sex work, but it's still so boring and undemanding that she has hours to herself, and privacy enough to frequently masturbate for long stretches, to the point of needing to bring extra batteries. (It sounds like she could be doing any number of other things when she's in these lulls, but she chooses to masturbate.) And she's masturbating while talking to other men. I am not sure if this is a daily occurrence, or happens less frequently. I'd assume it's a very frequent occurrence.

I'm not judging anyone's sex drive here. I am just trying to get the facts straight, for your benefit.

Having said this, I have my own online exposure and we do still produce content together. The difference is mostly that it's something we do together, for me and for her. It is a couples activity she can then use to get attention from. A lure, to put it plainly.

You and she do some kind of online thing together. Sex content? And then somehow from there, she lures in other men to get off with? Either for money, or not?

Yet, in all this, she's super mad you have one friend.

So, you're mostly right, but the OF is not something we couldn't do without, whereas her career very much is.

Now to the hard question.

You don't say, but I think you are referring to me pointing out that April wants to tell the world she has a crush on you.

Yes, when you put it like that, I can see that. But I'll be honest in that, no, I did not until just now. My knee-jerk reaction is that my wife's interjection prompted that. But I'd need to think that through. So I'm going to, and then respond once I have a bit.

So, this "friendship" has gone from platonic to romantic, at least on April's side. And April is important enough to you that you're working hard in therapy to get May to "hear" that you're not giving up April.

I really am grateful for that there. That's a perspective I hadn't put much weight into, I think mostly because I didn't bring it to the table, so why defend it? But on my wife's end, that's irrelevant, it shows intent. That does change things.

It shows April's intent. She has a crush on you. Whether you yourself have secretly gone from having just platonic feelings for April to romantic feelings is for you to examine. It's fine if you have. Maybe you didn't realize it. If you believe you have developed romantic feelings for April, that's okay. You do you. You tell May about it. And don't let her give you shit for it. Walk away if she gets rude.

You are correct. Thank you.

 

[Magdlyn]

Your wife just has no clue about where she ends and where you begin. It's like she considers you as an extension of herself and not a separate person. I would suggest therapy, but you guys are already in it. I wish your wife would come here and explain everything to us so we could understand better

If she's a narcissist as GG suggested, they rarely go to therapy, and if they do, they aren't very forthcoming and never take responsibility for their own actions. It's always someone else's fault.

 

[shy guy]

She doesn't get or understand emotions?

She's typically rational and has emotions that correlate. Outside of fights or argument-type settings, she's a compassionate person. She does extremely thoughtful things for people all the time. After talking this through more, I'm thinking that she's maybe protecting her position more than anything. I am thinking more like a sore loser when referencing a challenging board game vs it's just for fun, if that makes sense.

She is missing all, or some, of the different types of empathy, or struggles with it?

I think she struggles with empathy in things she doesn't have any history or experience with. I guess that's probably common. I think that's where a lot of this comes into play with this post. She sees things a certain way, and tries to fit me and everything else into that perspective. But she is very good at seeing other sides of things, in time. It takes a while. I think some of this is just her not knowing what is real or imagined.

She picks fights or masturbates for the dopamine high, seeking stimulus?

I don't think she ever wants to fight, but she picks fights, in my opinion, by setting the stage for us to be on opposing sides. Like, "Well, you..." or "If you hadn't..." To me, those types of statements are saying it's a confrontation.

I don't think she masturbates to completion very often. I really don't. She has sent me videos when she has. When she gets home after work, we both enjoy her edging. I think that's the high. The talking and edging are the distraction. That's my perception, anyway.

I do feel she always needs something going on. It's very hard for her to just be.

Could your wife be autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, or some other kind of neurodivergent?

Could you? Could you two be an autism/ADHD couple?

I definitely have an issue with getting distracted. I often start one thing and find myself doing another. That is possibly something to consider.

Well... are you all actual people to May in the first place? I know that sounds weird. But I have a narcissist in my family. Other people are not "actual people" to them, they are extensions of them, like we're all little puppets or dollies or something they own/control. They are the "star" of the show called "This is My Life," and everyone else is like a non-player character (NPC) in it.

And also... the stimulus-seeking thing again here. Sex and orgasm and texting, and all that at once.

I've wondered about this, actually, because I've dealt with this before, too. But she's had some pretty big achievements in our relationship that I don't think would have happened if that were the case. She's overcome and changed long term in ways I don't think a true narcissist would be able to.

She never sexts while we are having sex. I was more just saying once she immediately got on her phone and I saw she was talking to someone on Reddit. No idea who it was, or what about, but sex was technically over. It just sat with me wrong because it felt like she wasn't present. Her normal actions changed. That's more of what I was trying to convey there.

You talking to someone else might mean you aren't "playing right" to May, if you are supposed to be a NPC/supporting cast. May is the "star of the show." How dare you have ideas and thoughts and feelings of your own or live your life, like you get to have a life movie too? You are supposed to be a dolly who does what May says you should in HER life movie.

Is any of that going on here?

This has definitely been how I've felt AT TIMES. I'm not sure it applies across the board. It's something I certainly need to pay attention to.

Top 100 Traits & Behaviors — Out of the FOG | Personality Disorders, Narcissism, NPD, BPD

of Personality-Disordered Individuals

outofthefog.website

I'm going to explore this link and see if anything seems like it might fit but, haven't yet. I'll circle back, if so.

 

[shy guy]

You don't interfere with her style of connection and she doesn't interfere with yours. Otherwise, it all has to end. You can't have it be okay for one but not the other. Just because you do it differently doesn't affect that.

Okay. So, I thought of something on my end reading this. I had a very hard time understanding the edging thing. I'm someone who very much faces problems head on. When that all first arose and went on for a bit, I had a terrible time understanding what she was looking for. I started being pushy, in that I'd talk about like actually meeting up with these guys. My thought was that she really wanted that/them, but was settling for this (our marriage). I did cross some boundaries along the way, on my side, in that way. I see that now, not so much then. So I can't say I've never done this.

However, the difference for me is I wasn't getting the truth for a long time, so I was guessing a lot more. In this situation, I've been forthcoming throughout, but I feel like she's listening to her inner voice or assumptions, rather than to what I'm actually doing or saying.

I hope that made sense. There is a lot I'm trying to convey here.

 

[shy guy]

Your wife just has no clue about where she ends and where you begin. It's like she considers you as an extension of herself and not a separate person. I would suggest therapy, but you guys are already in it. I wish your wife would come here and explain everything to us so we could understand better

I could ask her. I originally thought the same thing when I joined, but there are a lot of comments from others I know she'd read into at first and I think it'd overwhelm her senses, quite honestly.

I told her I was doing this before I did, though. So she could be reading all this already and just hasn't said so yet. If anything like that comes to light, I'd certainly support her in speaking from her side. I want to understand and work this out. Among other things. I think we both do. There are just so many new feelings we haven't dealt with.

We used to have kids to worry about. They've moved out and I try to forgive compassion for that, as well. It's not like you just stop being a mother because your kids are out on their own. And ours are doing so well, on top of it. They have very full lives already. So we are in full-on empty nest mode now too. I think the extra time to focus on just us is having a bit of a difficult side show through, as well.

 

[GalaGirl]

She's typically rational and has emotions that correlate. Outside of fights or argument type settings she's a compassionate person. She does extremely thoughtful things for people all the time.

But is it authentic, or some kind of neurodivergent masking/following the social script to get by thing? Or just wanting to look good or "putting on a show?" She seems to want/crave a LOT of attention.

I think after talking this through more, I'm feeling like she's maybe protecting her position more than anything.

You think that she is protecting her position from WHAT?

I wondered this actually, because I've dealt with this before, too. But she's had some pretty big achievements in our relationship that I don't think would have happened if this was the case. She's overcome and changed long term in ways I don't think a true narcissist would be able to.

There are different kinds of narcissists. And it might not be NPD, but something else. Talk to your counselor about this.

I don't think she ever wants to fight, but she picks fights, in my opinion, by setting the stage for us to be on opposing sides. Like, "Well, you..." or "If you hadn't..." to me. Those types of statements are saying it's a confrontation.

Is it like arguments energize her, and she wants to "be right and win," more than wanting to gain understanding and "be in right relationship with each other"?

Is this flipping it around on you, like, not wanting to admit fault, not wanting to take personal responsibility, or even DARVO stuff?

I'm going to explore this link and see if anything seems like it might fit. But I haven't yet. I'll circle back, if so.

Bring it up with your therapist in an individaul session if something clicks for you. They are the ones who could actually DX.

You might assess with your counselor if this relationship is healthy. Here's one tool.

https://rhntc.org/sites/default/files/resources/rhntc_hlthy_rlshp_wheel_spectrum_11-2-2022.pdf

You also may need to talk to your therapist about her online edging stuff starting out as secretive/sneaky/cheating, versus you being upfront with your relationship with April, if you haven't already.

Internet people might be able to help you with one or two things. But this sounds complex. It has lots of layers. I'm not even sure you having a friend is even first on the list.

You just mentioned "empty nest"-- that's another puzzle piece in the mix.

GG