I feel like I'm being put in the wrong box and would appreciate other's perspectives

[shy guy]

So you're saying she is not a paid sex worker now, except for her OnlyFans account, but even that she just does for pleasure. The money is just a side benefit. She has another job that pays better than sex work, but it's still so boring and undemanding that she has hours to herself, and privacy enough to frequently masturbate for long stretches, to the point of needing to bring extra batteries. (It sounds like she could be doing any number of other things when she's in these lulls, but she chooses to masturbate.) And she's masturbating while talking to other men. I am not sure if this is a daily occurrence, or happens less frequently. I'd assume it's a very frequent occurrence.

The extra batteries comment was a fact of that particular day, not something that matters overall. This isn't an all day thing, by any means. My statement was more about how I felt my outside outlet was taken from me, in a way, but hers continues. And in her mind, there appears to be no understanding that one emotionally supports the other for me. Like, by her allowing me to have this person, that's her way of accommodating my needs, just like me allowing her to have these other interactions is on my end. She does many other things during her downtime. It's not exclusively this. She has hobbies. It's more that she uses this as an escape, and I'd like her to see the closest thing to an escape for me was an emotional outlet.

I'll give an example:

All the dogs get out and I spend hours tracking them down, catching them, getting them back in. Hours of my day gone, frustrated, probably left water going somewhere, or a pot on the stove, etc. I'm in a bad mood, essentially.

I share this with my wife, and bam, she feels guilty. She is listing off things that need to be done differently. She's going to do this, buy that. That's just not at all what is going to help me calm down.

I share with April, and her response is how sweet I am to care for all these animals, that she thinks I did it rather quickly, that I had a good idea in doing this or that.

This comes around to the complimentary statement in another response. One adds to my plate, the other embraces my situation.

My wife has definitely been this person for me in the past, and still can be at times. It's just like there's so much guilt there now, and I think that's where our therapy may help chip away at this. I have my triggers, too.

If, for example, we are showering, and it goes cold, that is something that was my responsibility. So my reaction to that is guilt. Whereas, she'd probably prefer if I was like, "Hold on, honey. Your superhero husband is here to save the day! I'll heat the water for you right now!" And run out into the world naked, wet and ready to tackle changing the propane. (We are completely off grid. Just roll with it. lol) I'm sure she'd appreciate that very much. So I think it's a both-sides thing. The difference for me is that I don't feel like I have anything else at my disposal.

You and she do some kind of online thing together. Sex content? And then somehow from there, she lures in other men to get off with? Either for money, or not?

Essentially, yes. That's all accurate. We don't make content for that reason. It really is a couples activity. We both have a voyeuristic side. But the result is the same. So yes.

So, this "friendship" has gone from platonic to romantic, at least on April's side. And April is important enough to you that you're working hard in therapy to get May to "hear" that you're not giving up April.

It shows April's intent. She has a crush on you. Whether you yourself have secretly gone from just platonic feelings for April, to romantic feelings, is for you to examine. It's fine if you have. Maybe you didn't realize it. If you believe you have developed romantic feelings for April, that's okay. You do you. You tell May about it. And don't let her give you shit for it. Walk away if she gets rude.

I am deeply considering all of this, but can't say absolutely for sure in any of this. I'm struggling here, especially after the realization of the "crushing on" thing. I really hadn't put that in the right light originally, and I'm seeing this more from her perspective now. It might be a bit before I'm able to get my feelings around this part. I'm thinking about all of this, though.

 

[shy guy]

If she's a narcissist as GG suggested, they rarely go to therapy, and if they do, they aren't very forthcoming and never take responsibility for their own actions. It's always someone else's fault.

See, and here, again, she's made huge steps in the past that lead me to believe she's not. She's taking accountability for things. She has changed in many positive ways over the years. Honestly, we still have a really good life, even with all of this going on around us. She does a ton of other stuff for me. She's not neglectful in all ways. I just don't feel seen or heard a lot of the time, due to her perspective. That is where I get confused and think... maybe... But with all the rest, it just seems unlikely.

 

[GalaGirl]

My statement was more about how I felt my outside outlet was taken from me, in a way, but hers continues. And in her mind, there appears to be no understanding that one emotionally supports the other for me. Like, by her allowing me to have this person, that's her way of accommodating my needs, just like me allowing her to have these other interactions is on my end. She does many other things during her downtime. It's not exclusively this. She has hobbies. It's more that she uses this as an escape, and I'd like her to see the closest thing to an escape for me was an emotional outlet.

You can't decide to do SOME things on your own? Have your friends and NOT tell wife every detail about them?

I could ask her. I originally thought the same thing when I joined, but there are a lot of comments from others I know she'd read into at first and I think it'd overwhelm her senses, quite honestly.

I told her I was doing this before I did, though. So she could be reading all this already and just hasn't said so yet.

Do you have to run EVERYTHING by wife? Even posting on here? You can't use whatever online spaces you feel like on your own?

Why are you so joined at the hip with wife? Is it from habit, because she's the only person around if you live off grid and far from town? There's nobody else really to talk to and you are getting kinda cabin fever?

Maybe it would be more efficient for you to just do the things you need-- have friends, visit online forums, do what you need to do to improve your social wellness in the ways you can because you live off grid, away from town, caring for so many animals.

See, and here, again, she's made huge steps in the past that lead me to believe she's not.

You are the one actually there. You don't think she's a narcissist. Ok... she's not.

Maybe this is just not her area. We all have our strengths and weaknesses, our best areas and our "meh" areas.

Maybe you want her to do stuff that is outside her capacity, and rather than trying to "get her to see" you just accept her as she is. She's not super great with emotions/emotional management/emotional intelligence/whatever it is. She can only do 1 lb max and you need 10 lbs.

That doesn't make either of you bad people. You just have to adjust and work within personal limits. You get the 1 lb from her and then seek other people to help you with the rest.

If this were golf... and she just wasn't good at it, would you keep trying to "get her to see" what's so great to you about golf? Or would you just let it go, enjoy the golf things on your own, or with friends who love golf, and then share other things together instead? Maybe this is like that. You could adjust your expectations to the reality that she's only got so many emotional skills to give, and stop telling her so much about your emotional friendships. You just have them.

I share this with my wife, and bam, she feels guilty. She is listing off things that need to be done differently. She's going to do this, buy that. That's just not at all what is going to help me calm down.

Why are you doing "doom from the sky" to your wife? How about a softer start?

It sounds like you two end up doing the married people pissing contest over who has the bigger problems.

Maybe you two want to read Marshall Rosenberg Non-Violent Communication books. There are several, but I like Living Non-Violent Communication.

It might be a lot faster to get what you actually needed if you learned to start softer and say, "I had a bad day. I need help calming down. Could I have a hug and then some soothing words like, 'There, there, poor baby'? And then you listen to me list all the things that sucked today? And the correct answer is 'Yeah! Those things really sucked!' Is this a good time for that? Or would later be better?"

That gives her a chance to consent to do this work, she knows what the correct answers are going in, and she could offer a counterproposal.

"I can do a quick hug and some 'There, there, poor baby' kind words right NOW. But the longer list of suck has to wait. I was about to get dinner. I could listen to the list at ____ when I get back from picking up the take-out. Would that work for you?"

GG

 

[Magdlyn]

You can't decide to do SOME things on your own? Have your friends and NOT tell wife every detail about them?

He has one good friend, April. He met her on Fetlife. May has always known about her, but has begun objecting because she seemed to think the thing had to go sexual, and either she or shyguy thought they needed to introduce May to April and maybe have a threesome. May is very sexually oriented, so she assumed this thing with April NEEDED to be sexual, i.e., "cum on the lit chick's glasses!" etc.

Do you have to run EVERYTHING by wife? Even posting on here? You can't use whatever online spaces you feel like on your own?

It was discussed between them to use polyamory-type communication skills, so therefore, it would be a good thing to talk to polyamorists. I don't think that counts as "having to run EVERYTHING by May." Maybe this was even suggested/discussed in their therapy sessions.

Why are you so joined at the hip with wife? Is it from habit, because she's the only person around if you live off grid and far from town? There's nobody else really to talk to and you are getting kinda cabin fever?

Lots of men only open up emotionally to their wives. At least shyguy has April.

Maybe it would be more efficient for you to just do the things you need-- have friends, visit online forums, do what you need to do to improve your social wellness in the ways you can because you live off grid, away from town, caring for so many animals.

It sounds like he and May have an OnlyFans together, and maybe May has one of her own too, not sure. And shyguy was going to Fetlife but didn't like it. Maybe he's on rescue animal boards. We don't know. It's likely, in this day and age. Perhaps he could branch out more, though. But right now, he is enjoying having this one good friend. Some people don't make friends easily, or don't want more than one spouse and one other good friend.

Maybe you want her to do stuff that is outside her capacity, and rather than trying to "get her to see" you just accept her as she is. She's not super great with emotions/emotional management/emotional intelligence/whatever it is.

It's nice to feel heard in a marriage. Most of us want/need that. Some of us break up with partners because they aren't able to listen to us and really hear us, or care about what we are feeling or thinking.

Why are you doing "doom from the sky" to your wife? How about a softer start?

I think he probably just mentioned the dogs got loose during the day to her by text? He doesn't strike me as the whiny sort.

It sounds like you two end up doing the married people pissing contest over who has the bigger problems.

I do think their communication could stand some improvement. Here he said:

I don't think she ever wants to fight, but she picks fights, in my opinion, by setting the stage for us to be on opposing sides. Like, "Well, you..." or "If you hadn't..." To me, those types of statements are saying it's a confrontation.

In this case, May was using "You statements." If she wanted to, she could learn more about using "I statements." Generally that gets better results. "I feel... I wish... I want..." or "When you do X, I feel Y."

"When you have a good female friend, I think you want a girlfriend, or I think you want to have one-on-one sex with her, and then I feel ...[scared, jealous, angry, sad, envious, turned on, FOMO]."

And then shyguy models responsive listening by repeating back what he heard (instead of defending himself)--

"I heard you say that when you see me having a good female friend, you thought [ABC] and you felt [XYZ]. Is that right?

Maybe you two want to read Marshall Rosenberg Non-Violent Communication books. There are several, but I like Living Non-Violent Communication.

It might be a lot faster to get what you actually needed if you learned to start softer and say, "I had a bad day. I need help calming down. Could I have a hug and then some soothing words like, 'There, there, poor baby'? And then you listen to me list all the things that sucked today? And the correct answer is 'Yeah! Those things really sucked!' Is this a good time for that? Or would later be better?"

That gives her a chance to consent to do this work, she knows what the correct answers are going in, and she could offer a counterproposal.

"I can do a quick hug and some 'There, there, poor baby' kind words right NOW. But the longer list of suck has to wait. I was about to get dinner. I could listen to the list at ____ when I get back from picking up the take-out. Would that work for you?"

I don't think this was the case with the dog escape, but it's still valid advice.

 

[Bobbi]

I've been forthcoming throughout, but I feel like she's listening to her inner voice or assumptions, rather than to what I'm actually doing or saying.

This is a very common thing. We hear some words and then create a story in our heads about that thing. It's a problem when there's a lack of trust because you are more apt to believe the story in your head that ties to emotions that reinforce that story (almost always a negative one) than believe what the person is actually saying. This is a great thing to bring up in therapy. Thought work is very helpful with this. Your (her) lizard brain has mastered the negative thoughts and tends to dismiss positive ones quickly.

 

[Tinwen]

At this point, wife should definitely NOT be prompted to read this thread. As much useful as there is, there is also so much speculation about her going on. Shy guy, you chose to put some of her worst moments to put online. People reacted. I think it would be truly hurtful to her to read through here now.

 

[LoveBunny]

Ok, the bringing the vibrator to work & using all the batteries thing just did me in... WTF, who does that?? I don't think this is normal behavior. Maybe she's a sex addict.

 

[shy guy]

At this point, wife should definitely NOT be prompted to read this thread. As much useful as there is, there is also so much speculation about her going on. Shy guy, you chose to put some of her worst moments to put online. People reacted. I think it would be truly hurtful to her to read through here now.

While I agree, these are hardly our worst moments. I think that's part of the problem here. I thought I was saying kinda middle of the road stuff, just factual everyday things for us. I'm just explaining things honestly, but I've stayed away from everything I think we'd consider personal, believe it or not. But yes, I agree, the speculation here would upset her, for sure, in this large of a dose.

I'm still trying to process a couple more recent responses on this thread. I did get one of the books mentioned yesterday, starting that today. I have a therapist appointment scheduled. Wife and I had another absolutely normal night. She was actually EXTREMELY receiving of my emotions last night. I don't say that dramatically. I'm saying it honestly. I could tell she was trying a new style of talking with me that she never has and I did feel heard and seen.

It's hard when you're talking to a group of strangers about personal items you already feel alienated with. It makes me want to overexplain. Regardless, again, I agree. Just saying it so it's said. Thank you.

 

[shy guy]

Ok, the bringing the vibrator to work & using all the batteries thing just did me in... WTF, who does that?? I don't think this is normal behavior. Maybe she's a sex addict.

That was a factual statement, not an important statement. After this last escalation, that is technically what happened, so I said it. But I know it wasn't for a masturbation marathon. She could've known the ones in it were dead. I said it because it happened that day, not because it happens every day. I buy her batteries for her vibrator always. It's always me, for years. I'm happy to. I see when they're low and buy more. This part is not an issue between us. It's just not.

 

[ref2018]

Ok, the bringing the vibrator to work & using all the batteries thing just did me in... WTF, who does that??

IKR, everyone knows that battery-operated vibrators don't hold a candle to plug-in. Besides, they make USB rechargeable ones and batteries are just not the most environmentally friendly choice for the modern masturbator.

When I had to masturbate at work, I'd just use a screwdriver handle like they did in Orange Is The New Black.

 

[Magdlyn]

I'm still trying to process a couple more recent responses on this thread. I did get one of the books mentioned yesterday, starting that today. I have a therapist appointment scheduled. Wife and I had another absolutely normal night. She was actually EXTREMELY receiving of my emotions last night. I don't say that dramatically. I'm saying it honestly. I could tell she was trying a new style of talking with me that she never has and I did feel heard and seen.

I'm glad to hear all of that. I hope the positive progress continues.

 

[GalaGirl]

While I agree, these are hardly our worst moments. I think that's part of the problem here. I thought I was saying kinda middle of the road stuff, just factual everyday things for us.

Is this a healthy relationship? You don't have to answer online. Just for you to reflect on with the therapist, maybe?

https://rhntc.org/sites/default/files/resources/rhntc_hlthy_rlshp_wheel_spectrum_10-13-2022.pdf

But yes, I agree, the speculation here would upset her, for sure, in this large of a dose.

This is why I think you each need your own online support spaces -- separate ones with an agreement not to read each other's posts at "their" forum.

It's fine to agree both can seek online support or input, or even as part of therapy homework. But be less "CoupleBlob." Even though sometimes you function as a couple, you are still individuals. One doesn't subsume oneself to a relationship. That's not healthy.

People need safe spaces to process. Then, whatever you figure out or think about at a forum you can bring up later in a session, if it is actually still relevant. Sometimes it is not. The person just needed to "air out" somewhere. This allows them to focus on the bigger, more pressing issues.

It's not always helpful for the partner to read unfiltered, raw stuff. Hearing about the "organized Cliff Notes" in session might actually serve better and help the couple make progress. Reading "raw material" might cause emotional flooding and side issues that aren't really necessary to get into.

At this time you might have to just accept that wife is not good at certain skills. She's working them but she's just not great at it right now and she has not "arrived" yet. So stop expecting her to be. Give her the space to be a "work in progress." She could do same for you.

You may have to lean on other people to meet your needs for comfort, airing out, etc. That's ok to do. I think it's better to have a wide circle of friends/support network and not put it all on the spouse.

I'm still trying to process a couple more recent responses on this thread. I did get one of the books mentioned yesterday, starting that today. I have a therapist appointment scheduled. Wife and I had another absolutely normal night. She was actually EXTREMELY receiving of my emotions last night. I don't say that dramatically. I'm saying it honestly. I could tell she was trying a new style of talking with me that she never has and I did feel heard and seen.

That's good. Both of you are trying new approaches/things.

Maybe you'd like to post a blog thread? You can make yours here:

Life stories and blogs

Share your stories and blog about your current life situations, inspiring others

polyamory.com

GG

 

[Bobbi]

When I had to masturbate at work, I'd just use a screwdriver handle like they did in Orange Is The New Black.

Wtf Ref!!

 

[ref2018]

Wtf Ref!!

This is just factual. It's not important.

 

[Tinwen]

While I agree, these are hardly our worst moments. I think that's part of the problem here. I thought I was saying kinda middle of the road stuff, just factual everyday things for us. I'm just explaining things honestly, but I've stayed away from everything I think we'd consider personal, believe it or not.

It's hard to not misrepresent a spouse you are in conflict with in a conversation like this. I'd say it's impossible. So don't worry too much.

The problem is you can't delete your posts on polyamory.com if they turn out problematic later. So be careful writing details about people. They may not love having their private life or particular conversations exposed.

===digression===
This is my opinion based on superficial knowledge only, and please forgive my bluntness.

While a lot of posters expose content their partner might not be comfortable with (guilty as charged), your personal filters on what is important context seem to be set up a little differently from most in a hard-to grasp way. It makes me want to support Galagirl's neurodivergency suggestion - you may be exhibiting some autism spectrum traits. There's more hints like the bluntness, you calling yourself shy but this obviously only applying to in-person communication, and you missing how your relationship became more significant than a friendship in the eyes of most people. So once your relationship crisis is stabilized, you may want to look into how much the meaning of the term "autism" has been broadened in recent years, see if you tick the boxes and consider whether it's useful for you to explore the implications.

I say it's a digression, because it may not help you find a viable life-plan with your wife (and gf?) right now, and because this exploration can take quite some time and may not lead to clarity. (When I was looking into female Asperger's, I found the somewhat fuzzy table of symptoms fit just too many people in my social surroundings to be useful -- but I still realized there may be a connection between seemingly disconnected quirks and personality traits). So the immediate relationship situation should definitely stay in focus. Even if you do label yourself (or your wife... as troublesome as it is to "diagnose" others), the task remains the same: understand each others as individuals, find a way to live together.

 

[shy guy]

It's hard to not misrepresent a spouse you are in conflict with in a conversation like this. I'd say it's impossible. So don't worry too much.

The problem is you can't delete your posts on polyamory.com if they turn out problematic later. So be careful writing details about people. They may note love having their private life or particular conversations exposed.

===digression===
This is my opinion based on superficial knowledge only, and please forgive my bluntness.

While a lot of posters expose content their partner might not be comfortable with (guilty as charged), your personal filters on what is important context seem to be set up a little differently from most in a hard-to grasp way. It makes me want to support Galagirl's neurodivergency suggestion - you may be exhibiting some autism spectrum traits. There's more hints like the bluntness, you calling yourself shy but this obviously only applying to in-person communication, and you missing how your relationship became more significant than a friendship in the eyes of most people. So once your relationship crisis is stabilized, you may want to look into how much the meaning of the term "autism" has been broadened in recent years, see if you tick the boxes and consider whether it's useful for you to explore the implications.

I say it's a digression, because it may not help you find a viable life-plan with your wife (and gf?) right now, and because this exploration can take quite some time and may not lead to clarity. (When I was looking into female Asperger's, I found the somewhat fuzzy table of symptoms fit just too many people in my social surroundings to be useful -- but I still realized there may be a connection between seemingly disconnected quirks and personality traits). So the immediate relationship situation should definitely stay in focus. Even if you do label yourself (or your wife... as troublesome as it is to "diagnose" others), the task temains the same: understand each others as individuals, find a way to live together.

I really appreciate this and am taking it seriously. I have backed off responding here because I was feeling like I was digging a hole into more misunderstanding. I greatly appreciate bluntness as you touch on, partially because I envy people able to do it regardless. I'm a great leader at work, but it's hard to find my place out in public, hence the shy guy thing. I definitely have something going on, I see that. I really appreciate the genuine people and perspectives here. It really is nice to find people willing to help be another person's mirror. You've all taken a lot of time in responding and regardless of what happens, the human kindness is something I value. Thank you.

 

[shy guy]

Is this a healthy relationship? You don't have to answer online. Just for you to reflect on with the therapist, maybe?

https://rhntc.org/sites/default/files/resources/rhntc_hlthy_rlshp_wheel_spectrum_10-13-2022.pdf

This is why I think you each need your own online support spaces -- separate ones with an agreement not to read each other's posts at "their" forum.

It's fine to agree both can seek online support or input, or even as part of therapy homework. But be less "CoupleBlob." Even though sometimes you function as a couple, you are still individuals. One doesn't subsume oneself to a relationship. That's not healthy.

People need safe spaces to process. Then, whatever you figure out or think about at a forum you can bring up later in a session, if it is actually still relevant. Sometimes it is not. The person just needed to "air out" somewhere. This allows them to focus on the bigger, more pressing issues.

It's not always helpful for the partner to read unfiltered, raw stuff. Hearing about the "organized Cliff Notes" in session might actually serve better and help the couple make progress. Reading "raw material" might cause emotional flooding and side issues that aren't really necessary to get into.

At this time you might have to just accept that wife is not good at certain skills. She's working them but she's just not great at it right now and she has not "arrived" yet. So stop expecting her to be. Give her the space to be a "work in progress." She could do same for you.

You may have to lean on other people to meet your needs for comfort, airing out, etc. That's ok to do. I think it's better to have a wide circle of friends/support network and not put it all on the spouse.



That's good. Both of you are trying new approaches/things.

Maybe you'd like to post a blog thread? You can make yours here:

Life stories and blogs

Share your stories and blog about your current life situations, inspiring others

polyamory.com

GG

I'll consider this, might be a good place for me to process some things along the way too. Thank you.