Introducing a mono couple to poly
- Thread starter random1
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River
Well-known member
If you want a conversation on your topic, I think you'll probably want to tell more about your situation.
My last relationship was monogamous and lasted for about 7 years. It ended recently because a year ago I became limerent for someone else. (more about limerence at limerence dot net)
My Limerent Object is married with children and I recognised fairly quickly that I had become hopelessly infatuated. This was a wake up call for me and I've entered therapy in order to work on family of origin issues, low self esteem, and early attachment wounds. I think I have traits of love/sex addiction and have acted out with other addictive/compulsive behaviours in the past. My partner was initially patient and understanding, but did not wish to have an open relationship and when it became obvious that I would take some time to get over limerence she decided to end our relationship.
I'm fine with this as I recognise I need to do a lot of healing and growth work before I'm ready for another relationship; otherwise I'll just bring along my baggage again. As part of my recovery I am having a period of No Contact with my LO. This might be permanent.
It is clear that there was some physical / sexual attraction between my LO and I. I didn't disclose my feelings. She seems to be in a fairly stale but comfortable marriage. Her husband is a nice man, smart, witty, out of shape and apparently lacking energy. She is an outdoors girl and fitness bunny. I'm younger and in good shape. There has been far too much eye contact, touching, inappropriate comments, etc. I'm not prepared to sneak around and I intuit that she would have serious ethical issues even contemplating having an affair. (though I suspect by some standards we have already had somewhat of an emotional affair and have over-shared too many intimate details of our lives)
Which brings me to poly. I know some men fantasise about their wives being desired by other men. And certainly there are many women who would like to enjoy sexual variety with a younger, fitter man. She is very intelligent and broad minded. I'm considering introducing her to the concept of ethical polyamory at some stage and seeing if anything comes of it.
tronprogram
New member
Well, dude, I feel your pain, even though I have no idea how to fix it. I just got introduced to poly a few months ago when my wife thought she wanted to have an open relationship and I wound up getting wrapped up in a married poly girl who lived about two hours away.
The nice thing about your LO is that she's not actively engaged in the lifestyle that you feel like you're wired to have. Also nice is that you don't have an SO who completely rejects that lifestyle and doesn't even want you to understand it better just so you can talk yourself out of it.
Maybe I'm being too cautious here (never a bad thing), but it seems like you need to be extremely careful bringing this up with her. Essentially, you're asking her to cheat on her husband with you. I don't know how else you're supposed to get the idea through to her, but I would think you can't do it in a way that you're directly trying to recruit her for it. You've got to set some pretty major boundaries in just bringing it up. For instance, maybe you tell her that you were just reading about it, but the jury's still out on whether or not it might be a viable thing for either of you to try separately. Otherwise, if you posit this as a solution to get you two together, then that's just selfish and nefarious. You want her husband on board because he can be your greatest ally at times. With the girl I was talking to, her husband really liked me because I made her happy and laugh whereas all the other guys she was seeing made her upset most of the time. (Of course, I probably was the worst of them all when I had to break it off because my wife didn't approve.)
You also need to expect that this won't work at all. It very well could, but don't count on it. It's still probably worth trying, though, just so you'll have closure if you need to move on from her. If it goes well, then okay. But you aren't entitled to that by any means nor is she entitled to you. You want her and her husband to be completely happy and secure with themselves and each other at all times and you must put this above your own happiness if you're going to do this.
If you're single and she's married, you've just got to be extra careful that you don't put this on too high a pedestal because she'll never be able to give to you as much attention as you're able to give her due to her family commitments. If you're going to obsess about her when she's off taking care of those, then you're setting yourself up for trouble, I'd say.
Just be super careful, man.
The nice thing about your LO is that she's not actively engaged in the lifestyle that you feel like you're wired to have. Also nice is that you don't have an SO who completely rejects that lifestyle and doesn't even want you to understand it better just so you can talk yourself out of it.
Maybe I'm being too cautious here (never a bad thing), but it seems like you need to be extremely careful bringing this up with her. Essentially, you're asking her to cheat on her husband with you. I don't know how else you're supposed to get the idea through to her, but I would think you can't do it in a way that you're directly trying to recruit her for it. You've got to set some pretty major boundaries in just bringing it up. For instance, maybe you tell her that you were just reading about it, but the jury's still out on whether or not it might be a viable thing for either of you to try separately. Otherwise, if you posit this as a solution to get you two together, then that's just selfish and nefarious. You want her husband on board because he can be your greatest ally at times. With the girl I was talking to, her husband really liked me because I made her happy and laugh whereas all the other guys she was seeing made her upset most of the time. (Of course, I probably was the worst of them all when I had to break it off because my wife didn't approve.)
You also need to expect that this won't work at all. It very well could, but don't count on it. It's still probably worth trying, though, just so you'll have closure if you need to move on from her. If it goes well, then okay. But you aren't entitled to that by any means nor is she entitled to you. You want her and her husband to be completely happy and secure with themselves and each other at all times and you must put this above your own happiness if you're going to do this.
If you're single and she's married, you've just got to be extra careful that you don't put this on too high a pedestal because she'll never be able to give to you as much attention as you're able to give her due to her family commitments. If you're going to obsess about her when she's off taking care of those, then you're setting yourself up for trouble, I'd say.
Just be super careful, man.
Personally, I think this is the wrong approach, and it is likely to backfire on you. The reality is that men are far more likely to be receptive to establishing a relationship with a poly woman than vice versa. If a woman puts an ad on Craigslist, saying she is poly and has a couple other male partners, she will have no problem getting interest in responses from men. If a man does it, most women are not very receptive, perhaps because they believe that it is a sign that the man has infidelity issues. These women are loathe to trust that the man is being honest and that he isn't just cheating on someone.
If you approach your 'crush' and try to introduce her to poly, you risk her distancing herself from you. Remember, the 'flirting' that goes on between you may be nothing more than just that, flirting. It doesn't necessarily indicate she would be open to 'more'.
However, if you really want to go down this road, the person you need to reach first is the husband, not the wife. I agree with tronprogram here, you want him on board before you attempt to go any further. Furthermore, you will want to be a 'best friend' to him, since he needs to trust you if you are to have any hope in him agreeing to you seeing his wife.
It's not realistic to think you can get the wife interested, and then she will somehow convince the husband. In a situation like that, he's likely to see it as a threat to his marriage and balk. If you get to him first, you can gain his trust and it will make him far less likely to react badly.
Thanks tronprogram that is great advice!
I was in a committed LTR before I met LO. My SO and I discussed having an open relationship - SO wasn't willing to "share" (her term for it) so we went our separate ways. Now I'm single.
LO is married, with children, and a demanding career - so already I envisage that we'd only be able to get together a few times a month. She travels a lot on business so we could probably spend some time together abroad fairly regularly if this were to happen. I think any obsession is part of limerence / new relationship energy and should dissipate sometime in the next year or so.
"You want her and her husband to be completely happy and secure with themselves and each other at all times"
I genuinely do want this for them. It seems that they already are - except the passion has gone from their ~20 year relationship - she has told me this. I think she is sexually unsatisfied and their relationship might benefit from this pressure being taken off her husband.
"you're asking her to cheat on her husband with you"
Yes. To be more technical, I thought I was asking if opening her marriage is a realistic possibility as I don't want to be involved with cheating and neither does she. It is a difficult subject to raise for sure as it all comes down to the same thing no matter what label we give it.
"maybe you tell her that you were just reading about it"
"a viable thing for either of you to try separately"
This feels dishonest and indirect.
"if you posit this as a solution to get you two together, then that's just selfish and nefarious"
"you can't do it in a way that you're directly trying to recruit her for it"
Am I really off my trolly here? Surely if they had any poly inclinations they'd have explored it by now.
I need to do much introspection, have further discussions with my therapist and other poly folks, and be sure I'm coming from a place of respectfulness, honesty, and non-needyness before discussing this with her. But my plan was simply to say that I don't think monogamy is right for me, I've learned about polyamory, and can see a lot of sense in it. Then ask if she and her husband had ever considered having a more open relationship? I'm comfortable to disclose that I find her very attractive, we are also already emotionally close, and I would like us to become lovers - but only if she and her husband were comfortable with the proposed relationship.
This is nefarious and manipulative isn't it? I'm out of my mind, aren't I? And yet...I believe I've come to care deeply about this woman, she seems mature and broad minded enough to at least discuss the issue, and I'm quite prepared for the probability that the answer will be "no".
I was in a committed LTR before I met LO. My SO and I discussed having an open relationship - SO wasn't willing to "share" (her term for it) so we went our separate ways. Now I'm single.
LO is married, with children, and a demanding career - so already I envisage that we'd only be able to get together a few times a month. She travels a lot on business so we could probably spend some time together abroad fairly regularly if this were to happen. I think any obsession is part of limerence / new relationship energy and should dissipate sometime in the next year or so.
"You want her and her husband to be completely happy and secure with themselves and each other at all times"
I genuinely do want this for them. It seems that they already are - except the passion has gone from their ~20 year relationship - she has told me this. I think she is sexually unsatisfied and their relationship might benefit from this pressure being taken off her husband.
"you're asking her to cheat on her husband with you"
Yes. To be more technical, I thought I was asking if opening her marriage is a realistic possibility as I don't want to be involved with cheating and neither does she. It is a difficult subject to raise for sure as it all comes down to the same thing no matter what label we give it.
"maybe you tell her that you were just reading about it"
"a viable thing for either of you to try separately"
This feels dishonest and indirect.
"if you posit this as a solution to get you two together, then that's just selfish and nefarious"
"you can't do it in a way that you're directly trying to recruit her for it"
Am I really off my trolly here? Surely if they had any poly inclinations they'd have explored it by now.
I need to do much introspection, have further discussions with my therapist and other poly folks, and be sure I'm coming from a place of respectfulness, honesty, and non-needyness before discussing this with her. But my plan was simply to say that I don't think monogamy is right for me, I've learned about polyamory, and can see a lot of sense in it. Then ask if she and her husband had ever considered having a more open relationship? I'm comfortable to disclose that I find her very attractive, we are also already emotionally close, and I would like us to become lovers - but only if she and her husband were comfortable with the proposed relationship.
This is nefarious and manipulative isn't it? I'm out of my mind, aren't I? And yet...I believe I've come to care deeply about this woman, she seems mature and broad minded enough to at least discuss the issue, and I'm quite prepared for the probability that the answer will be "no".
Wish I'd had this advice in the beginning.
He doesn't like me. I'd go as far as to say he's been a bit hostile towards me since he thought his wife and I were getting a bit close, or that I was more interested than I ought to be in his wife. She's picked up on this as she doesn't invite me to events which include her husband any more; when we see each other its just us.
I was sad about that as I met him before I knew his wife and we seemed to get on quite well at first.
I don't have a hope do I?
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I am sorry you struggle. I am glad you are working with your counselor.
The second statement seems to contradict the goal of the first. Why seek to talk to her if your goal is no contact? If you need to stay away from her to be healthy, why go chasing? How does working against what you need for your recovery healthy or helpful? I am confused.
I think the best course would be to run all that by your therapist. Work to complete your therapies/healing. Then when you are on stable footing, seek poly dating with someone who is available to you as a dating partner.
At this time, your crush person is Closed, married, and not available for poly dating. Why smack head on wall?
Galagirl
The second statement seems to contradict the goal of the first. Why seek to talk to her if your goal is no contact? If you need to stay away from her to be healthy, why go chasing? How does working against what you need for your recovery healthy or helpful? I am confused.
I think the best course would be to run all that by your therapist. Work to complete your therapies/healing. Then when you are on stable footing, seek poly dating with someone who is available to you as a dating partner.
At this time, your crush person is Closed, married, and not available for poly dating. Why smack head on wall?
Galagirl
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Good questions GalaGirl!
I felt that there was some connection between us and I thought this might be something I'd like to explore at some point in the future when I'm on a more stable footing. Just kidding myself though - in my more lucid moments I recognised that she is both a little attracted and not prepared to act on it; she simply enjoys the attention and what she perceives as a little harmless flirting. I'm just a source of narcissistic supply.
Why smack head on wall?
Poor templating, enmeshment, and emotional abuse in childhood; various other family of origin issues; repetition compulsion; and reliance on faulty coping strategies. This isn't really about poly.
Thank you all for helping me see more clearly that this isn't likely to work out, and even if I were to somehow beat the odds it would be a pyrrhic victory.
Still interested in exploring poly - people in the community have at least consciously considered various aspects of relationships rather than uncritically accepting the model of monogamy and "love" presented in the media. I first came across the term on Karawynn Long's old blog (when she worked at MSFT and was in the process of toilet training her cat). That must have been about 15 years ago. And I'm still curious.
I felt that there was some connection between us and I thought this might be something I'd like to explore at some point in the future when I'm on a more stable footing. Just kidding myself though - in my more lucid moments I recognised that she is both a little attracted and not prepared to act on it; she simply enjoys the attention and what she perceives as a little harmless flirting. I'm just a source of narcissistic supply.
Why smack head on wall?
Poor templating, enmeshment, and emotional abuse in childhood; various other family of origin issues; repetition compulsion; and reliance on faulty coping strategies. This isn't really about poly.
Thank you all for helping me see more clearly that this isn't likely to work out, and even if I were to somehow beat the odds it would be a pyrrhic victory.
Still interested in exploring poly - people in the community have at least consciously considered various aspects of relationships rather than uncritically accepting the model of monogamy and "love" presented in the media. I first came across the term on Karawynn Long's old blog (when she worked at MSFT and was in the process of toilet training her cat). That must have been about 15 years ago. And I'm still curious.
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Re (from random1):
Ohhh, that's not a good sign ... ... not only does he have nonmonogamy to accept, but he must also accept you with the added ick value of not liking you.
I differ from Savant in that I think you'd need to approach her first with this poly idea, then she'd need to approach her husband with it. Obviously that's two big hurdles and you'd have to vault both. But, it is what it is.
It's up to you. But in any case, you could certainly keep learning more about polyamory. This forum is a good place for that. Other good resources are Opening Up and More than Two.
I hope that helps ...
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
Ohhh, that's not a good sign ...
... not only does he have nonmonogamy to accept, but he must also accept you with the added ick value of not liking you.I differ from Savant in that I think you'd need to approach her first with this poly idea, then she'd need to approach her husband with it. Obviously that's two big hurdles and you'd have to vault both. But, it is what it is.
It's up to you. But in any case, you could certainly keep learning more about polyamory. This forum is a good place for that. Other good resources are Opening Up and More than Two.
I hope that helps ...
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
Bluebird
Well-known member
I would not be happy if a love interest approached either of my husbands before talking to me. It would make me feel too much like an object, and not my own person. I actually had a dude in a bar approach my ex-boyfriend and ask him if he'd be interested in coming to his place and they could swap - and he noticed that I was the only girl with my boyfriend at the time, whereas he had two to bring to the party. Though I was flattered that I was worth trading two girls for, I was greatly unhappy that this guy hadn't said three words to me. I certainly would not have been down to just go blindly with a strange dude, nor would I have gone with one who didn't ask me personally. Seriously? Course he was just looking for a hookup, and you are looking for a relationship, but to me, going to the lady's partner and trying to explain yourself seems disrespectful to her as a person.
Thanks for the comments - I'm very new to this.
The main difficulty I see is that they have not (as far as I know) come to poly under their own steam.
I see a significant distinction between:
feeling that you are poly / have always been poly and naturally want to be open to exploring other relationships if the opportunity presents itself (and are happy for your partner to have the option of other relationships too, if they want)
and
already having met someone who you want to be closer with or even become lovers, and then asking if your spouse would be okay with this.
I had been with my last mono partner for the better part of a decade when I met LO. I was immediately honest about the feelings I had for this new woman. We discussed opening our relationship as I felt unwilling (unable?) to shut things down with the LO. After a few months of discussions and plenty of agonising, my mono SO decides that poly isn't for her. Two issues. Jealousy. More fundamentally, the belief that one can only "truly" love one person at a time, and that her place had been superseded by my new love interest. Our relationship ended shortly after.
The strange thing is that in the past I'd discussed potentially having a poly nature - flirting with other women was par for the course with me and tolerated by my SO - as were "close" friendships with other women provided no sex occurred - and we had discussed potentially opening our relationship at some future date. We'd even discussed the possibility of swinging. She always felt very secure in our relationship. My limerence (degree of feelings and persistent, involuntary nature) robbed her of that sense of security.
Been thinking more about my LO's husband. Think he wouldn't be adverse to discussions on poly - he's an intelligent and reasonable man. Likely wouldn't morally approve. However, I think if he thought his wife brought up the subject because she has feelings for me and wants to take it further he'd be sick about it. I don't take that lightly. I read CTF's thread (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75411) and I wouldn't want any part in putting anyone through such suffering.
In some sense the betrayal is complete by a wife even asking her husband if she could see another man.
Not sure how to proceed. This is a minefield.
Agree that I shouldn't be considering any discussions with her husband. She'll need to speak to him if this is something she decides she is curious about. I don't know him well enough.
It occurs that establishing a few poly relationships and introducing them to this couple might be a good jumping off point for them to 1) learn I'm poly and 2) see a little of how a poly relationship might work. I'll see how therapy goes; I'm not ready to be rushing into new relationships just yet.
The main difficulty I see is that they have not (as far as I know) come to poly under their own steam.
I see a significant distinction between:
feeling that you are poly / have always been poly and naturally want to be open to exploring other relationships if the opportunity presents itself (and are happy for your partner to have the option of other relationships too, if they want)
and
already having met someone who you want to be closer with or even become lovers, and then asking if your spouse would be okay with this.
I had been with my last mono partner for the better part of a decade when I met LO. I was immediately honest about the feelings I had for this new woman. We discussed opening our relationship as I felt unwilling (unable?) to shut things down with the LO. After a few months of discussions and plenty of agonising, my mono SO decides that poly isn't for her. Two issues. Jealousy. More fundamentally, the belief that one can only "truly" love one person at a time, and that her place had been superseded by my new love interest. Our relationship ended shortly after.
The strange thing is that in the past I'd discussed potentially having a poly nature - flirting with other women was par for the course with me and tolerated by my SO - as were "close" friendships with other women provided no sex occurred - and we had discussed potentially opening our relationship at some future date. We'd even discussed the possibility of swinging. She always felt very secure in our relationship. My limerence (degree of feelings and persistent, involuntary nature) robbed her of that sense of security.
Been thinking more about my LO's husband. Think he wouldn't be adverse to discussions on poly - he's an intelligent and reasonable man. Likely wouldn't morally approve. However, I think if he thought his wife brought up the subject because she has feelings for me and wants to take it further he'd be sick about it. I don't take that lightly. I read CTF's thread (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75411) and I wouldn't want any part in putting anyone through such suffering.
In some sense the betrayal is complete by a wife even asking her husband if she could see another man.
Not sure how to proceed. This is a minefield.
Agree that I shouldn't be considering any discussions with her husband. She'll need to speak to him if this is something she decides she is curious about. I don't know him well enough.
It occurs that establishing a few poly relationships and introducing them to this couple might be a good jumping off point for them to 1) learn I'm poly and 2) see a little of how a poly relationship might work. I'll see how therapy goes; I'm not ready to be rushing into new relationships just yet.
3 anecdotes about dating someone who is a poly noob:
When I was first single back in '09, and didn't have my poly act together, I had a relationship with a guy in a sexless marriage. I admit, he was cheating. But he was physically and emotionally distant from his wife, and our relationship was long distance, mostly online. We met 3 or 4 times in 2 years.
Be that as it may, it was wrong, and we both knew it and stopped dating or communicating. Then he made the decision to talk to his wife about opening up... it took a bit over a year. They finally worked things out to open up. After a while, he found a partner, and then there was more work to be done with his wife as theory became reality.
That is when he got back in touch, so I learned the whole story. He asked to start seeing me again, but I was over him as a lover, and declined. However we still chat sometimes as friends, and I heard his story.
Anyway, that is probably a common course of how long it takes a married couple with no shared sex, to open up. Oddly even if a partner refuses to give sex to their spouse, quite often they still do not want their spouse to have sex elsewhere, but expect them to just keep muddling through, totally frustrated and unfulfilled.
I also befriended another guy in the early stages of opening up back then. It was another long distance r'ship, we only met once. He hadn't had sex with his wife in 2 years, and in fact she felt she might be a lesbian. At his insistence, they were trying to open up. It was back and forth with his wife, she was OK with trying it, she wasn't OK. Finally she was OK, and they both took female lovers. But I didn't continue to see him. They both seem quite happy now.
Then, there was another guy I talked to online, who told me he had an open marriage. We had one date. Then on the second date, I met his wife and she seemed quite upset at him for seeing me. Finally after months of foot dragging, they ended up with a boundary that he could only date men, and only casually! So much for any hope I had!
You never know how these couples will be struggling, even when they say they are poly. Since then I do not date newbie poly guys. I look for single guys, or experienced poly guys.
When I was first single back in '09, and didn't have my poly act together, I had a relationship with a guy in a sexless marriage. I admit, he was cheating. But he was physically and emotionally distant from his wife, and our relationship was long distance, mostly online. We met 3 or 4 times in 2 years.
Be that as it may, it was wrong, and we both knew it and stopped dating or communicating. Then he made the decision to talk to his wife about opening up... it took a bit over a year. They finally worked things out to open up. After a while, he found a partner, and then there was more work to be done with his wife as theory became reality.
That is when he got back in touch, so I learned the whole story. He asked to start seeing me again, but I was over him as a lover, and declined. However we still chat sometimes as friends, and I heard his story.
Anyway, that is probably a common course of how long it takes a married couple with no shared sex, to open up. Oddly even if a partner refuses to give sex to their spouse, quite often they still do not want their spouse to have sex elsewhere, but expect them to just keep muddling through, totally frustrated and unfulfilled.
I also befriended another guy in the early stages of opening up back then. It was another long distance r'ship, we only met once. He hadn't had sex with his wife in 2 years, and in fact she felt she might be a lesbian. At his insistence, they were trying to open up. It was back and forth with his wife, she was OK with trying it, she wasn't OK. Finally she was OK, and they both took female lovers. But I didn't continue to see him. They both seem quite happy now.
Then, there was another guy I talked to online, who told me he had an open marriage. We had one date. Then on the second date, I met his wife and she seemed quite upset at him for seeing me. Finally after months of foot dragging, they ended up with a boundary that he could only date men, and only casually! So much for any hope I had!
You never know how these couples will be struggling, even when they say they are poly. Since then I do not date newbie poly guys. I look for single guys, or experienced poly guys.
Another hurdle! Thanks for sharing your experiences.
It seems I'm drawn to what is difficult / uncertain. What a recipe for continuing self esteem / insecurity issues as a newly poly couple do a few rounds of yes/no to poly which leaves me where exactly?
I think I'm (unconsciously) seeking out unworkable / difficult situations where there will be plenty of drama and uncertainty. Some element of the Parental Rescue Fantasy and repetition compulsion here. It is really helpful to me when people point up some of the issues I might encounter; they should be putting me off, and they are at an intellectual level; but I'm more concious of the emotional needs which such issues might meet. Unhealthy.
We've had no contact for a couple of weeks now. I don't plan on changing this any time soon. I did feel a deep connection with her, but it is so hard to work out what is genuine and what is projection/unresolved material from childhood.
If we are going to get together, I figure that at our age another year doesn't matter. Depending on how my therapy and self development work goes I might be amenable to getting back in touch in 3-6 months and see if we can be friends. If there is still an attraction and I'm confident that I'm not still "acting out" past issues then I'll consider dipping my toe in the poly pool.
What I'm coming to terms with through therapy is that the strong attraction I felt was probably to do with her having similar personality traits to my parents- mostly my father. And that she also has some avoidant tendencies. While I don't buy into this theory entirely I do give quite a lot of room for the possibility that I chose her in order to recreate a relationship where I am not fulfilled and my anxieties around abandonment will be constantly triggered. Also that wanting a relationship with a married woman reflects my commitment issues.
I'd really like to know whether there was anything more to the experience of feeling that we'd known each other forever, of being instantly close, opening up to each other emotionally, not having any concept of personal space around each other, and the almost telepathic communication. I could occasionally even perceive the sensation she was experiencing (which she confirmed). While I know that she experienced at least some of the above too, we never had a fuller discussion about our feelings. It just didn't seem appropriate (I put that restriction on us). I have the intuition that she would have been perfectly fine talking about it. I'd like to talk to her about all of this one day. For now, I'll have to sit with not knowing. And accept that I might never know.
I am a fairly skeptical, rational person, scientifically minded. I am aware there are many things that we individually and collectively cannot satisfactorily explain through science or otherwise. I'm not an atheist. Fairly open minded. There is just something about this experience which feels....different....to me.I always perceived a strange energy in LO and was nearly instantly fascinated with her. (I'd even considered that she had been put here in order for me to know God...but Christianity is something I've always struggled with and I'm still not a believer)
Thanks so much for your interest, advice, and support. This seems to be a very concious and welcoming community.
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I'm glad if we can be of help.
You seem to be of two minds about whether you should let this woman go. I'm getting a strong sense that you mostly hope you can reconnect with her. I take it you're waiting for now because you want to make sure you're doing the right thing?
Sometimes things drift out of our reach, and we have regrets about not seizing the day when we could. I've actually been thinking of a lovely young lady I met when I was in high school. My dad and I used to visit their family once a month. We got along great with all of them, but I especially remember how glad this young lady always was to see us.
In retrospect I think she'd have gladly gone out with me if I had asked, and that would have been awesome. But at the time, it just didn't occur to me. I was trying to do the right thing (sound familiar?), and I believed that meant thinking about girls as little as possible. I want to blame the church for that, but ultimately I make the calls for my own life. So, my bad.
I belatedly miss that young lady. If I had a time machine, I'd totally go back and ask her out. Who knows if it would have led anywhere? It might have.
This isn't to say you're making a mistake by holding off for now; it is more just a statement of empathy and that I imagine the longings you must feel for that woman, even if you can't see your way clear to pursue those feelings.
And it is an observation that time only moves forwards, not backwards. So we will tend to miss things in our past even though they're impossible to regain. We tend to wonder what would have happened if we'd have taken the left fork instead of the right. But in this present moment, you have to choose your path based on the knowledge that you have. Future knowledge isn't available to you.
Just do the best you can; that's the important thing.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
You seem to be of two minds about whether you should let this woman go. I'm getting a strong sense that you mostly hope you can reconnect with her. I take it you're waiting for now because you want to make sure you're doing the right thing?
Sometimes things drift out of our reach, and we have regrets about not seizing the day when we could. I've actually been thinking of a lovely young lady I met when I was in high school. My dad and I used to visit their family once a month. We got along great with all of them, but I especially remember how glad this young lady always was to see us.
In retrospect I think she'd have gladly gone out with me if I had asked, and that would have been awesome. But at the time, it just didn't occur to me. I was trying to do the right thing (sound familiar?), and I believed that meant thinking about girls as little as possible. I want to blame the church for that, but ultimately I make the calls for my own life. So, my bad.
I belatedly miss that young lady. If I had a time machine, I'd totally go back and ask her out. Who knows if it would have led anywhere? It might have.
This isn't to say you're making a mistake by holding off for now; it is more just a statement of empathy and that I imagine the longings you must feel for that woman, even if you can't see your way clear to pursue those feelings.
And it is an observation that time only moves forwards, not backwards. So we will tend to miss things in our past even though they're impossible to regain. We tend to wonder what would have happened if we'd have taken the left fork instead of the right. But in this present moment, you have to choose your path based on the knowledge that you have. Future knowledge isn't available to you.
Just do the best you can; that's the important thing.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
Thanks for your understanding. Would you be interested in discussing further the ethics of this situation? I note you have a background in Christianity and seem to have done a fair bit of philosophising and soul searching.
Would be interesting to see what people think the ethical issues are here.
Here is my take. The first issue isn't really a poly issue, but I think the rest are.
#1. Objectifying her
Limerence. And projection (psychological term). My therapist thinks that the attraction is at least in part due to her mirroring my shadow (Jung) qualities and having aspects of her personality similar to my parents. I had some insight leading to this assessment and think its fairly on target. I'm concerned that I may be using any relationship with her to recreate the relationship with my parents. (Freud's repetition compulsion)
This is an ethical issue insofar as I am potentially not really "seeing" her for who she is but my projections onto her. Limerent "object" is apt. A mirror (to reflect my shadow qualities) or a screen (to project what I desire) rather than as a person. My therapist is adamant that this is all about me, not to do with love/relationship/her.
#2. Manipulating her
I'm a fairly self aware narcissist. I was forced to become manipulative in childhood to defend against physical and emotional abuse and try to get my needs met by my unstable parents. This has become my default coping mechanism. And I'm "good" at it.
This isn't a vain boast, there is plenty of evidence from my life that I have a far greater than usual "influence" over others. This has been a very useful quality in business. I've had introductions made and favours done by extremely successful people. Access to capital on very favourable terms. Some of the most successful people in my industry will meet me or take my call. People I meet get "sucked into my world". I've screwed up a few times and managed to talk my way out of trouble.
I don't have clear boundaries, and will push things as far as I can. This resulted in my becoming very successful earlier in life (before my reach substantially exceeded my grasp and I came crashing back down to earth). Certain types of people are either drawn to me or very easily influenced by me. I don't seek to abuse this. I always strive to act ethically. But a lot of manipulation is subconcious.
When I was less discrete about my success I got a lot of attention and a lot of interest from certain types of women, some of whom were married or in committed relationships. When I was young and foolish I had a fling with a married woman who was cheating on her husband.
Once, I outright manipulated a woman into a relationship with me, who was initially not even attracted. There were various reasons why we didn't seem to be a good match. I now recognise I was limerent for her. I turned my attention on winning her, as determinedly and persistently as I'd approached any other goal in life.
Something strange happened. When she realised the depth of my desite she was aroused. When she realised I was turning down relatively frequent offers from attractive young ladies because I only saw her she was flattered. I told her I was going to have her. I was as certain of this as you are that the sun will rise tomorrow. (we eventually got together, had a great relationship for years, and as I had intuitied we were extremely sexually compatible)
Studies have shown that we are more likely to like people who we know already like us. Similarly, women are aroused by the knowledge that they are desired.
She has been married for a long time and admits that the passion comes and goes in their relationship. If I decide to do something I give it my full focus. I'm average looking, but very stylish, charismatic, athletic and in good shape. Used to be smart. Successful. Younger. It would be fair for her to feel flattered. I can tell there is some attraction.
It is obvious where I'm going with this. Manipulation only really works on people who already want to do something. But it can make them go further than they usually would, or further than they intend. Most people are naturally followers. There is something about this which feels nefarious, like I'd be breaching her autonomy. I'm not sure I trust myself to be ethical/boundaried if I decide to start down this course.
#3. Corrupting her
Assuming I disclose. If she does anything less than an outright permanent rejection followed by breaking off all contact with me, she has betrayed her marriage and her husband. If we assume that she wouldn't cheat on her own inititive...aren't I tempting her? Can this ever be ethical?
I can imagine the most likely scenario being...she objects, says no...but not firmly. She "knows" it is wrong, but she can't quite put her finger on why what I say seems so calm, so sensible, so....for want of a better word "right". Now she is at war with herself and the seed has been planted. Whichever side wins out she will likely suffer. She is puzzled and confused at first, and suggests that we just remain friends. Over the following weeks I pop into her head a little more often than usual and she finds herself feeling...attracted.
If she follows me to the point of considering opening her marriage, at some point she will need to discuss with her husband. I can't really imagine a bigger betrayal. Do I really want to instigate this? We cannot judge the ethics by the outcome. Ending up happily and consensually together doesn't justify the means....
Or worse, what if she can't bear for him to learn of her betrayal, but for some reason feels compelled to pursue things with me in much the same way as I feel compelled to pursue her...and we end up having an illicit affair.
This isn't funny. We talk about "ethical non monogamy" but I really do think it is for individuals and couples to come to their own conclusions about this on their own inititive, rather than have it proposed to them by an outsider (who, worse, wants a relationship with one or both of the partners).
I was discussing this issue with the lady I seduced. Our relationship didn't last but we are still good friends. Her response was: "Don't do it. She has children. Don't risk wrecking their family." She seemed quite anxious. I asked her what she was feeling. She said "I know what you're going to do. You're going to wear her down, just like you did to me."
Maybe she didn't want to take responsibility for her part in being seduced...or maybe truly I did browbeat her into it and she found happiness later. But apparently being on the receiving end of my very focused (and initially unwanted) attentions was an unsettling place to be. She says that it sounds like there is a mutal attraction with my LO and if I don't get control of myself I'll probably end up wrecking a marriage and causing a lot of pain.
But I want her anyway (says the 5 year old boy).
Joking aside, I've come to care deeply for her and I like her family also. We have loads in common and were fast friends. Why miss out because somebody else got there first and we have some bizarre (and non universal) cultural preference for monogamy...
tl;dr
ethics:
-maybe it isn't her I want, just my projections, and I've reduced her to an object.
-I'm very manipulative, some of it unconcious so I can't completely turn it off, and therefore may persuade her against her best interests / there is a risk I'm able to overrule her better judgement depending on her strength of character and present circumstances
-can it ever be right to approach a closed, married person for anything more than friendship?
---but still I want her.
Here is my take. The first issue isn't really a poly issue, but I think the rest are.
#1. Objectifying her
Limerence. And projection (psychological term). My therapist thinks that the attraction is at least in part due to her mirroring my shadow (Jung) qualities and having aspects of her personality similar to my parents. I had some insight leading to this assessment and think its fairly on target. I'm concerned that I may be using any relationship with her to recreate the relationship with my parents. (Freud's repetition compulsion)
This is an ethical issue insofar as I am potentially not really "seeing" her for who she is but my projections onto her. Limerent "object" is apt. A mirror (to reflect my shadow qualities) or a screen (to project what I desire) rather than as a person. My therapist is adamant that this is all about me, not to do with love/relationship/her.
#2. Manipulating her
I'm a fairly self aware narcissist. I was forced to become manipulative in childhood to defend against physical and emotional abuse and try to get my needs met by my unstable parents. This has become my default coping mechanism. And I'm "good" at it.
This isn't a vain boast, there is plenty of evidence from my life that I have a far greater than usual "influence" over others. This has been a very useful quality in business. I've had introductions made and favours done by extremely successful people. Access to capital on very favourable terms. Some of the most successful people in my industry will meet me or take my call. People I meet get "sucked into my world". I've screwed up a few times and managed to talk my way out of trouble.
I don't have clear boundaries, and will push things as far as I can. This resulted in my becoming very successful earlier in life (before my reach substantially exceeded my grasp and I came crashing back down to earth). Certain types of people are either drawn to me or very easily influenced by me. I don't seek to abuse this. I always strive to act ethically. But a lot of manipulation is subconcious.
When I was less discrete about my success I got a lot of attention and a lot of interest from certain types of women, some of whom were married or in committed relationships. When I was young and foolish I had a fling with a married woman who was cheating on her husband.
Once, I outright manipulated a woman into a relationship with me, who was initially not even attracted. There were various reasons why we didn't seem to be a good match. I now recognise I was limerent for her. I turned my attention on winning her, as determinedly and persistently as I'd approached any other goal in life.
Something strange happened. When she realised the depth of my desite she was aroused. When she realised I was turning down relatively frequent offers from attractive young ladies because I only saw her she was flattered. I told her I was going to have her. I was as certain of this as you are that the sun will rise tomorrow. (we eventually got together, had a great relationship for years, and as I had intuitied we were extremely sexually compatible)
Studies have shown that we are more likely to like people who we know already like us. Similarly, women are aroused by the knowledge that they are desired.
She has been married for a long time and admits that the passion comes and goes in their relationship. If I decide to do something I give it my full focus. I'm average looking, but very stylish, charismatic, athletic and in good shape. Used to be smart. Successful. Younger. It would be fair for her to feel flattered. I can tell there is some attraction.
It is obvious where I'm going with this. Manipulation only really works on people who already want to do something. But it can make them go further than they usually would, or further than they intend. Most people are naturally followers. There is something about this which feels nefarious, like I'd be breaching her autonomy. I'm not sure I trust myself to be ethical/boundaried if I decide to start down this course.
#3. Corrupting her
Assuming I disclose. If she does anything less than an outright permanent rejection followed by breaking off all contact with me, she has betrayed her marriage and her husband. If we assume that she wouldn't cheat on her own inititive...aren't I tempting her? Can this ever be ethical?
I can imagine the most likely scenario being...she objects, says no...but not firmly. She "knows" it is wrong, but she can't quite put her finger on why what I say seems so calm, so sensible, so....for want of a better word "right". Now she is at war with herself and the seed has been planted. Whichever side wins out she will likely suffer. She is puzzled and confused at first, and suggests that we just remain friends. Over the following weeks I pop into her head a little more often than usual and she finds herself feeling...attracted.
If she follows me to the point of considering opening her marriage, at some point she will need to discuss with her husband. I can't really imagine a bigger betrayal. Do I really want to instigate this? We cannot judge the ethics by the outcome. Ending up happily and consensually together doesn't justify the means....
Or worse, what if she can't bear for him to learn of her betrayal, but for some reason feels compelled to pursue things with me in much the same way as I feel compelled to pursue her...and we end up having an illicit affair.
This isn't funny. We talk about "ethical non monogamy" but I really do think it is for individuals and couples to come to their own conclusions about this on their own inititive, rather than have it proposed to them by an outsider (who, worse, wants a relationship with one or both of the partners).
I was discussing this issue with the lady I seduced. Our relationship didn't last but we are still good friends. Her response was: "Don't do it. She has children. Don't risk wrecking their family." She seemed quite anxious. I asked her what she was feeling. She said "I know what you're going to do. You're going to wear her down, just like you did to me."
Maybe she didn't want to take responsibility for her part in being seduced...or maybe truly I did browbeat her into it and she found happiness later. But apparently being on the receiving end of my very focused (and initially unwanted) attentions was an unsettling place to be. She says that it sounds like there is a mutal attraction with my LO and if I don't get control of myself I'll probably end up wrecking a marriage and causing a lot of pain.
But I want her anyway (says the 5 year old boy).
Joking aside, I've come to care deeply for her and I like her family also. We have loads in common and were fast friends. Why miss out because somebody else got there first and we have some bizarre (and non universal) cultural preference for monogamy...
tl;dr
ethics:
-maybe it isn't her I want, just my projections, and I've reduced her to an object.
-I'm very manipulative, some of it unconcious so I can't completely turn it off, and therefore may persuade her against her best interests / there is a risk I'm able to overrule her better judgement depending on her strength of character and present circumstances
-can it ever be right to approach a closed, married person for anything more than friendship?
---but still I want her.
Re (from random1):
Sure, we can do that.
Do you recognize that LO is a person, with her own rights and needs?
Is your therapist always right? Do you rely on your therapist to always be right?
When is it wrong to manipulate others? When is it okay to do so? You mentioned that it had helped you in professional areas.
Is it possible to be with LO without corrupting her? What part does her husband play in it? Is his consent needed?
If she decides to cheat on her husband, does that compel you to cheat with her?
Can you introduce someone to the idea of poly without manipulating them?
Just some initial questions.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
Sure, we can do that.
Do you recognize that LO is a person, with her own rights and needs?
Is your therapist always right? Do you rely on your therapist to always be right?
When is it wrong to manipulate others? When is it okay to do so? You mentioned that it had helped you in professional areas.
Is it possible to be with LO without corrupting her? What part does her husband play in it? Is his consent needed?
If she decides to cheat on her husband, does that compel you to cheat with her?
Can you introduce someone to the idea of poly without manipulating them?
Just some initial questions.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.