KT's Blog

KatTails said:
I feel like I am competing with her - and I can never win. The things that he sees in her are things that he doesn't see in me - - and I take that as me lacking. I don't feel good enough for him. I know that I am not expressing myself clearly - there are many emotions that are clogging my heart. I am going to think about this a little more and see if I can give you a more concrete reason.
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This is incorrect.

You're not "lacking" dear, you're a different person! That doesn't mean that there's something wrong with you. All it means is that you're not MG, you're you. That's not a 'lack'.

How do I know this? How can I be sure of this when he loves someone else? When you're not all that he needs?

That's very simple - He's still with you. He still loves you.

Take it from another guy; if he didn't care for you, he'd be gone. Generally, men don't waste their time dealing with something unless they think that 'something' is worth it. And obviously, you're worth 'dealing with' to him ;)

Try to see the situation in reverse for a second - does the fact that he 'still needs you' or 'gets things from you that he doesn't get from MG' mean that MG is lacking? Or does it mean that you provide him with different things? Things that she doesn't because she's not you?

The first -and hardest- part of dealing with low self-esteem is realizing what you're really worth, both to yourself and the people who love you. This is difficult because generally, it's un-frickin-believable to the person with low self-esteem, when they come face-to-face with how important they really are, and what they really mean to the people around them.

Stop selling yourself short! He loves you for a reason..... probably a whole bunch of 'em :)
 
KatTails said:
Part of me is afraid that he loves her more. That I am not important to him anymore. If they are soulmates - where does that leave me? I feel like he is abandoning me when he goes out with her. I'm hurt and angry that she is so important to him that he is willing to hurt me and risk our marriage. I feel like I am competing with her - and I can never win. The things that he sees in her are things that he doesn't see in me - - and I take that as me lacking. I don't feel good enough for him. I know that I am not expressing myself clearly - there are many emotions that are clogging my heart. I am going to think about this a little more and see if I can give you a more concrete reason.
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I had a lot of those issues too. Especialy in the begining. For my end of things, I couldn't figure out why now that we were okay, why was he still with her? What did he need that I didn't give and if I figured out how to give it would that mean he wouldn't need her? Am I now less of a person, spouse, lover, because he has her now?

It took awhile to figure it out, but I know that isn't case. Karma loves both of us. I will NEVER figure out how to give him what she does b/c I am not Cricket, I'm me. Wonderfuly, amazingly, me.

One thing I asked Karma to do when I listed needs that weren't getting met, was honest compliments, and to tell why I was different from Cricket, and to tell me why he loved me, what did I do for him that she didn't.

Poor Karma.

When we met I was self assured, healthy and head strong. Nothing and no one was going to tell me I was or wasn't worth anything. Cuz I didn't care. I was worth something to me and that's all that mattered.

When I got sick, things fell fast and hard. I lost a lot of confidence b/c the strong body I always depended on, broke. It was no longer dependable, it was fighting against me. Everything I built my worth on, was stripped away.

So when he and Cricket came out, I was rocked. I had just started getting the old me back and here I was faced with this teeny tiny little creature. Younger, more naive, more willing to please. How do I compete with that?


I don't. That's what I needed reminded of. Karma didn't compliment or give me little assurances, because I never needed them. But I do now. It makes a huge difference. So we spent a night of him telling what he loved about the me that is here now, not the me of 8 yrs ago. He told me what I gave him, how I fullfilled him. And how I was different from Cricket.

Honestly I was sick of hearing how alike we were, cuz if we were so damn alike what the hell did he need her for?

But when he started telling me what he admired about me, what I gave him, why he loved me, I was able to see it and believe.

Went a long way to rebuilding the rocked confidence.

Have you asked 2 Rings to give you affirmations?

I'm all for loving yourself and finding your own worth. But sometimes you need a stepping stone to do that. Sometimes it takes seeing what others see, to help.

After Karma, I asked Panda. Why do you love me? Why do we work?

Ask a close friend, ask your kids. What makes you, you? Then ask yourself. Are there traits they aren't seeing that you want them too? Show them. Let that you shine. If they see traits you don't, take the time to look at yourself and SEE it.

I'm still not where I was 8 yrs ago. I'm not the unshakeable girl of my younger days. But as Karma likes to say, I got my balls of steel back.

I don't need to compete with Cricket, I need to be me. The best me. I am the only one that can cause my husband to fall out of love with me. I am the only person that can cause my husband to no longer be attracted to me. So if I love me, and commit to being my best me, for me, I in turn, am the best wife for my husband. Cricket has no sway over that.

You, 2 Rings and MG are all indidviduals. Who you are and what you have with your husband is yours and it's special. Stop taking away from that by comparing yourself.

You said she's his soul mate. Do you believe he can't have more than one? I don't see why he can't. I don't see why you both aren't. Do you? Has he told you that you aren't? If he has, have you asked why?

I find it hard to believe someone would commit to 20yrs to someone that isn't some form of a soul mate. I find it hard to believe someone would father children with someone whom he doesn't see as a soul mate.

I think you and 2 Rings need to have a heart to heart. I think he needs to affirm his love for you and make you feel special, and I think you need to be receptive of this.

I posted a blog about how Karma was doing all these little things for Cricket that he didn't do for me, and it hurt, I didn't feel as special. But when I brought it up, I found out he was doing things for me, that I wasn't seeing. Like taking care of me, cooking meals for me, cleaning when I couldn't, unloading the groceries, staying home when he wanted to be with friends so that we had time together. I was seeing these as day to day life, he was seeing them as the extras that showed me he loved me. After that talk, I've been much more aware and receptive to the little things I wasn't seeing. It made a big difference.

I think the best advice I can give, is stop the comparisons. It's hard, but it needs to happen. You don't need to be better than her, you don't need to be a replica of her, you need to be you. The you he loves, the you he pledged to love forever. He didn't pledge to love the replication of his girlfriend 20 yrs ago, he pledged to love you. So be you.
 
Karma said:
That's very simple - He's still with you. He still loves you. Take it from another guy; if he didn't care for you, he'd be gone. Generally, men don't waste their time dealing with something unless they think that 'something' is worth it. And obviously, you're worth 'dealing with' to him
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You're right Karma - he does, and I have never doubted that. We have had many ups and downs the last 20 years - but we love each other so deeply, that we always make it through the downs and come out stronger. It's that love that is keeping us both here and that will see us through this.

Mohegan said:
Yes it is hard to grasp the concept of sharing. But when I started thinking about how to make our time together count, it made me see that he does have enough love to go around, because love is nourishment. If my love for him is whole and true, and he FEELS it and KNOWS it and SEES it in all that I do, then he has a full tank to give back to me, and to give to g/f. If her love is nourishment as well, Well then we have a pretty well fed, well loved man on our hands, and that makes us pretty damn lucky.

So when I got to that point I realized, it didn't have to be about her and me. I love Karma. I am married to Karma. I promised to take care of Karma, to make sure he never wanted. I want to always have his best interest in mind.

Which is where the more love thing came in.

Isn't it in his best interest to let him be loved and to love all the people he possibly could?

How selfish and uncaring of me, to want to restrict how much love he can have.

How am I taking care of him, if I am restricting the amount of emotional nourishment he can have?
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Mo - thank you! This has touched me and made me evaluate things more than anything else anyone has ever said to me! And I sincerely mean that! How could I not want him to experience all the love he can? If I truly loved him - I would want that for him. And I do!

MG and I do not need to be friends with each other for him to feel loved and happy. But we do need to be respectful of each other and put aside all the bs that we've been arguing about. I need to realize that they need time together and that they should be allowed to do whatever and go wherever they want - without restrictions (except for our house which he agrees to.) When he is out with her - I will focus on the fact that he's happy and being loved - and not selfishly because he's not with me.

MG needs to realize that 2rings started this relationship with her - not me. I didn't choose this and I have the right decide if I want to be involved or not. I choose not to be. Therefore the extent to which she is involved in our life will be restricted because I did not choose a relationship with her. The extent that he is included in her life and her familys life is up to her, her husband and 2rings.

Will my feelings on this change? Who knows? I'm not ruling anything out nor am I going to worry about the future right now.

Right now, my sole focus is working on repairing the damage that has been done to our marriage. I have no doubt that we will come out of this stronger than ever!

Thanks again Karma and Mo!! You guys rock!
 
NeonKaos said:
I think KT has explained that part of the problem is that her husband feels that it IS necessary for the two women to interact to some extent. He wants MG to be accepted as a member of their nuclear family, and THAT, to my understanding is the source of the friction (or a big part of the source). Please KT set me straight if I got the wrong idea.

I see KT TRYING to "live life making decisions based on [their] marriage, ...health, and [her] love for him", but he wants something more than that, which she is not prepared or equipped to give. And you know what? KT didn't AGREE to give HERSELF to MG, so she shouldn't be made to feel as if she's not doing right by her marriage because she doesn't want to share HERSELF with her husband's girlfriend. 2R SHOULD BE KISSING KT'S ASS for KT's generosity in putting her husband-and-father-of-her-children's happiness ahead of her own!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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No Neon - you are 100% right. I know they are in love but I don't want her as an active part of our lives. She feels that she has a right to be able to be a part of all aspects of his life. She wants to meet his/our friends and family - as a friend first, then as a girlfriend. She wants him to also meet her friends and family - that is up to her and her husband.

Case in point: she wanted to meet his best friend (R.) and his wife, (K.) So last May I agreed that she could come to a party they were having. 2rings ex-girlfriend was going to be there and MG has been jealous of this woman for no reason and has called her nasty names in the past (they had never even met.) At the party, MG and the ex -J. talked a lot. The next day - MG befriended J. and a few others from the party on FB and even contacted K. to arrange for all of us to go to a concert - which never happened. I found this to be very pushy and inappropriate. J. sells jewelry and MG recently hosted a party. They are now good friends - yet J. and K. have no idea about MG and 2rings. R. and K. are having a get together in a few weeks for their anniversary and sent an invitation over FB for people to join them. I replied that we were probably going to go. MG also responded that she (not sure about her husband) will be going? WTF??? Especially with the way things have been with us the last few weeks. She has her own friends - why does she need, or think she has a right to force herself into our group of friends? Who does that? She has a complete lack of respect for me and for boundaries. Anyone who thinks that this is ok - is fucking crazy!!

Now, if 2rings wants to introduce and explain who MG really is - he can go ahead and do that and take her instead of me. I'm not stopping him. He's just not ready to introduce her to friends and she knows it. This is the kind of shot that causes fights.
 
Keeping in mind that I am friends with both of you, I do agree that you deserve to have safety and comfort in separate social circles. Redpepper and Polynerdist have friends that I don't socialize with, and they go to social gatherings that I don't go to. Sometimes I am not invited which is totally fine, and other times I choose not to go. Why? Because even as integrated as we are and despite the true friendship and family connection that me and Polynerdist have, I still respect that he needs and has a right to enjoy time with his wife by himself. Redpepper and I have some friends that we socialize with as a couple as well. We have a right to that as well.

Everyone needs to be able to enjoy themselves without any other complications.

Part of being a metamour is extended consideration - taking the feelings of our partner's partners into account before we ask for something or do something especially when it has such direct impact on them.
 
I dunno, for me it just makes sense for us all to be friends. Karma and I have almost all the same friends. There are very few friends I have that he isn't also friends with and vice verse. We have no need to "hide" Cricket ( well except from my parents at the moment cuz I still don't know how to approach that one).

Cricket talks with Karma's brother on somewhat regular basis. she has some of the same friends simply because with Darkon, it tends to become one big happy family.

There are times I want to go to a party with just me and Karma. And there are times they want to do things just them. But there are also things we used to, (and I see doing again), do together.

I do think there needs to be some seperation. Some alone time. But if she's become friends with these people, is it so wrong for her to be at their party?
 
I also wanted to point out that there have been several occasions where we all three went to a party, while Cricket and I weren't getting along. I found my people to hang with and let it be.

I get that it's a bit different since you guys aren't out to your friends. But if she's gonna go, don't let it be about you and her, let it be about your friends. That's why you're going right? To celebrate with them? So allow them to have their night. They want her there or they wouldn't have invited her.

Afterwards, calmly address a way for you all to figure out which events are group events and which events are just for you and 2 Rings.

If you guys are in some of the same social circles, there needs to be respect on both sides.
 
Mohegan said:
I do think there needs to be some seperation. Some alone time. But if she's become friends with these people, is it so wrong for her to be at their party?
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There will be other parties. Why not hold back on this one as a sign of good faith? If my presence was going to knowingly inhibit Polynerdist's enjoyment at an event, I wouldn't think twice about staying out of it. I know there would be others. But I guess the difference is I care about him and he cares about me. I can't imagine a situation where people who are sharing a partner in a very integrated way don't like each other. What kind of energy would that create? How could anything be worth that in the long run?

My comment his has nothing to do with KT and MG directly, it's just how I feel about a dynamic I don't understand...it saddens me actually. 2rings must be torn apart :(

Sorry for the hi-jack.
 
Mohegan said:
I do think there needs to be some seperation. Some alone time. But if she's become friends with these people, is it so wrong for her to be at their party?
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No, but KT has said that SHE doesn't want to be at that party if MG is going.

A friend and I have a mutual acquaintance whom I do not like, and if my friend ever invited this acquaintance to a party at her house, I would decline an invitation to that party. But, I am in no way suggesting that my friend should not invite the mutual acquaintance just to suit me. I simply make the choice for MYSELF to avoid that individual. I can socialize with my friend another time.

We have to keep in mind that this is KT's blog and the focus is on what is going on with KT, not on what MG should or shouldn't do. I need to clarify that what I said earlier about "kissing KT's ass" was purely rhetorical and not suggested as a "plan" or an "action item".
 
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Mohegan said:
I dunno, for me it just makes sense for us all to be friends. Karma and I have almost all the same friends. There are very few friends I have that he isn't also friends with and vice verse. We have no need to "hide" Cricket ( well except from my parents at the moment cuz I still don't know how to approach that one).

Cricket talks with Karma's brother on somewhat regular basis. she has some of the same friends simply because with Darkon, it tends to become one big happy family.

There are times I want to go to a party with just me and Karma. And there are times they want to do things just them. But there are also things we used to, (and I see doing again), do together.

I do think there needs to be some seperation. Some alone time. But if she's become friends with these people, is it so wrong for her to be at their party?
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This is totally me. Maca and I were discussing last night that I'm very "inclusive" when it comes to friends. If we're having a get together (or not) everyone's welcome-anytime. Our door is never locked. If I want privacy-I'll go to the bedroom.
In point of fact-it's not uncommon for friends/family to pop in, spend the night because we live closer to whatever they will be doing the next day and hang out.
Maca and I decide it's time for us to go to bed, we go.
If someone's hungry-they know where the kitchen is.
They need a shower, they know the towels are in the laundry room, the upstairs bathroom is a free-for-all.


At the same time, I don't presume that GG is welcome at Maca's work events (his coworkers mostly are unaware) and I don't assume Maca is welcome at GG's work events.
But for the most part-we share the same group of friends all the way around.
It DOES keep things simple, because those friends are loyal to US as a family-not to one couple or the other. Which means when issues (like last weekend) arise, those friends are supportive of ALL THREE of us-not taking sides.

:)
 
MonoVCPHG said:
My comment his has nothing to do with KT and MG directly, it's just how I feel about a dynamic I don't understand...it saddens me actually. 2rings must be torn apart :(
Sorry for the hi-jack.
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Yes-this. I feel much the same. We have a boundary rule addressing new partners on precisely this topic. If they can't be friendly with all of us-they can't be in the dynamic.
It's not a matter of needing to be FRIENDS-but friendly. It's just too STRESSFUL if it's not.
At the same time,
We all hold ourselves responsible to be FRIENDLY to ALL potentials. Period.
 
NeonKaos said:
We have to keep in mind that this is KT's blog and the focus is on what is going on with KT, not on what MG should or shouldn't do. I need to clarify that what I said earlier about "kissing KT's ass" was purely rhetorical and not suggested as a "plan" or an "action item".
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;)

This seems a good spot to point out that there are days when I am just not up to dealing with certain people.
If there is an event where one of those people is likely to be and I know I'm not up to dealing with them;
I just politely decline to go.

There is NOTHING wrong with attending to your own needs by not attending events. There is something wrong with assuming that others should rearrange their plans for you (not that they necessarily shouldn't-but because we can only control ourselves).
;)
 
Wow! Does life change quickly.

Here's an update: first off, let me please clarify one thing because I know MG is going to make an issue out of this: J., K. and I are not close friends. J. dated 2rings for 10 years before me. He met me - and chose me over her. We have been friends on and off for 20 years. Her Mom is both of our childrens God-mother. We consider J., her daughter, her Mom and Step Dad family. J. and K. are best friends. When 2rings picked me - of course K. stuck up for J. But because her husband and my husband are best friends - her and I became friendly. Both her and her husband were in our wedding. In fact - it was their family we went camping with twice this last month and a half. So while these are not my best friends - I've known them both for for 20 years.

After my last post, 2rings came home and I told him about MG pushing her way into his circle of friends. He had no idea! She never mentioned it to him. She never asked him if he minded if she hung out with his friends. She never thought that him and I might be going to this dinner. She doesn't care who she hurts. She wants to know his friends (especially J, K and R. because they grew up with 2rings and are/were his closest friends.) In fact during a counseling season she told our therapist that if this ever came out about her and 2rings - J and K would support me. So who does she seek out a friendship with? Them. She is manipulative and calculating!! But 2rings can't see it.

So anyway - him and I ended up fighting about it, things got heated, I just couldn't take his criticizing and blaming me (because I'm not social enough. . . ) that I got out of the truck, took my wedding rings off, gave them to him and told him I want a divorce. I left for a while - and when he was out having dinner with the kids - I went home, packed a bag and I am at a hotel now. The kids are home with him.

I'm done. This is too painful. Someone emailed me today and said that this isn't polyamory. This is about 2rings getting his way no matter what.

Ive read on here that the primary relationship should come first. That if the secondary relationship is causing problems (especially a possible divorce) that the secondary relationship needs to take a back seat and the primary relationship should be worked on. But that hasn't been the case. MG has always been in this to win, to get what she wants no matter the cost to anyone. She never cared about my feelings. She never cared how this would affect her family or our children. It's always only been about what she wanted.

How come I'm told that if I loved him I would have to find a way to accept this when she sees what this is doing to our marriage and she still pushes forward??

It's late, I can't stop crying, my head hurts and I'm sick to my stomach.

I don't know what tomorrow will bring - and it terrifies me. My focus has to be the kids - they are going to suffer the most.
 
:( Sorry to hear this KT. But I truly hope whatever happens tomorrow that you are in a healthier place. Try to rest and remember that you will get though this. My entire life changes almost three years ago and I thought I would die. I didn't, I'm here, scarred but healthy and happy.

Try to get some sleep
Mono
 
By now most of you probably know what has transpired over the last few days. I am heartbroken for my husband, for myself and for our marriage. I came on this site looking for advice and to learn about polyamory. I wanted to make my husband happy. Instead, we are all now hurting.

I have been my open and honest self. I have worn my heart on my sleeve. I have written about my problems, feelings, experiences. I have put it all out there. I have not said anything on here or in a PM to anyone that I would not or have not said to MG. I have not tried to turn people against her. I have not asked people to take sides. I have not PM'd people who reply to something MG said to present my side of the story. I have not hidden anything. This is not a political campaign where I feel I have to run person to person tearing my opponent down. This is our life. This is our marriage.

You are all going to pick sides - it's natural. But it's not fair if you are only getting half the story. MG has had the opportunity and ability to see what I have posted and to respond on here or to me in private. What she writes in PM or email is one sided because I don't have the ability to respond.

Have my posts been dramatic and whiny at times? Yes they have. But the pain, jealousy, resentment, low self esteem and anger I have experienced over the course of the last 18 months have been unbearable and overwhelming. Some of you can understand and some of you can't.

Poly isn't for everyone. It's not for me. But unlike some people - I'm not judgmental. I wish you all the best and I hope things work out for everyone.

Thanks to those who have reached out to me.

Goodbye - Kat
 
Goodbye Kat

Actually I don't think that most people do know what has transpired over the last few days. I certainly don't. Lots of people have invested time and emotional energy reading your posts and trying to give you support and I don't think it is very fair of you to finish it in this way. The last we heard you were holed up in a hotel. You've said polyamory isn't for you, so all I can conclude is that you have decided to end your marriage? I'm sorry about that but I wish you all, all the best and hope you have learned from this experience and can take what you have learned into your life changes, whatever they will be.
 
sage said:
Goodbye Kat

Actually I don't think that most people do know what has transpired over the last few days. I certainly don't. Lots of people have invested time and emotional energy reading your posts and trying to give you support and I don't think it is very fair of you to finish it in this way.
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I can understand Kat not wanting to post anymore. In any case she was not posting up to entertain us. Our emotions are unimportant . She is probably feeling really down.
Really sorry it has come to this for you Kat.
God bless you.
 
I read in "How are you doing" that MG and 2R broke up.

This thread is now closed. KT knows how to reach me if she wants it re-opened.
 
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KT asked to have the thread re-opened. She says she will update/respond soon for those who are interested.

Please respect the blog space. thx
 
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