Lack of attention

[Inthedark]

I think I'd flat out ask her if she wants a divorce...because it sure doesn't sound like she wants a husband any more! She seems intent on hurting you. Sometimes, in relationships, I think if we let resentments build without addressing them, it can reach a point where the relationship is not salvageable. At least, not in it's current form. I really think that may be where you are. I can't help wondering if her actions aren't motivated by resentment and anger, and a desire to 'even the score'.

I'm not there yet. I don't want to hear the answer. Plus, with all the times it has been said (as recently as last month, in fact) I can't trust that that is truly how she feels. But most importantly, I'm not there yet. I think that for all her life she has been looking for the storybook romance, the knight in shining armor. I was that guy at one time. I think I still am. I'm the guy that has always saved her. Unfortunately, now she believes that she needs saving from me.

I don't resent her. I don't hold grudges. I don't know if I have the capacity to resent her. I am an American Soldier. As such, I will never stop fighting for what is good and right. In this situation, I will not stop fighting for our marriage.

 

[Ivylein]

Why is he the one being expected to do all the work? He is quite clearly trying to do a great deal of accommodating to his wife's needs. The remark, "He needs to make himself for attractive to her" was rather cruel and unnecessary.

Umm, because what he is doing right now is not working?

Seriously, the choices are make it better or break up. If he wants to make it better, he's got to get more creative. This dom person of hers needs a wake up call that he's not in charge.

 

[Inthedark]

Update

Interesting things have happened. During last evening's activities, I was made to take a video of my wife in the act. This morning she said something that made me suspect that this whole thing was a task she had been given. While driving my son to school, it occurred to me that the video was for the Dom. So, to protect myself, I told my wife that I did not consent to the video being sent out. When I got home, I was informed that a Facebook chat had been set up so that Mr. Long and I could clear the air. My wife, who was very clearly upset, left the house for work. Now I am in a chat with the man himself trying to salvage the situation. I am going to be the bigger person and I am going to make things right for all three of us.

 

[Inthedark]

If he wants to make it better, he's got to get more creative. This dom person of hers needs a wake up call that he's not in charge.

First, I appreciate your advice. Second, I have not been very explicit about what I have been doing. I have certainly stepped up my game and continue to do so.

As far as the Dom, what would you suggest? I think (if you read my last post) that texting that I do not consent for her to send out a video which shows my body was pretty powerful. Because I texted it, I now have a record that my consent was not given. Because I used the term consent and not permission, I have legal footing. If the video is now sent, I have legal ground for a civil or criminal complaint. To me, that is "in charge," at least of this one little thing.

 

[PhoenixStGeorge]

Wow, this all sounds so hard. FWIW, I think you're doing everything right. As right as a husband can be, anyway. You're still human.

To explain the source of my perspective, and a story, in case it helps: I'm my husband's second wife. Once upon a time, I, and many others, looked up to his first marriage as an ideal worth working towards-- they seemed happy, they were open, and they seemed to make it work. It wasn't poly, mind you, just open. But it was open in a very flawed way that eventually took its toll, and after a kid was born, to boot. That they split up is ultimately so very much better for everyone involved, even the kid (LOVE her, just my version of children-shorthand), even though she now has two homes and way more road miles logged than any kid should have.

Fast forward to now, ten years together and six married, he and I had a mono-except-for-one-old-friend relationship for a long time, evolved to non-monogamous, now polyamorous (I'm mostly just poly for our GF, rather than as a classification, he's more just poly), in a triad.

What went so terribly wrong in his first attempt at non-monogamy was that they prioritized being faithful to the letter of the law/their openness rules, but not the intent. Unfortunately (not for me!), ultimately, while I know from experience that he was capable of evolving to a truly poly place full of compersion, I don't think she was ever capable of that or ever will be. I think what she wanted/wants is to be completely unrestricted, allowed and able to do whatever she wants, whenever, not to prioritize anyone else over herself.

How do I think this relates to you? Well, I'm not entirely sure it does. But from what I've read that you've written here, I wonder if your wife is not the same, not unable or unwilling to prioritize you or the kids over herself. Rather, I know that I revel in prioritizing my husband and kids over myself. I call it caring/loving. But I also need times when I am prioritizing myself or I will get lost. Perhaps your wife needs to straighten out her equation, feel more comfortable that it's ok to make herself the priority (I suspect her defensiveness can come from an insecurity that what she wants is wrong), thereby becoming able to feel more comfortable making you or the kids a priority in other moments.

It's hard for me to react in the context of this weird new dom thing. That reads to me like there are so many layers happening right now that the base of sorting out her own formula of priorities may not be possible. I wonder how she can do some real work on herself in a way that lifts off layers of guilt for how she's treating you and the kids (unfair though that treatment may be), without it feeling like a punishment of being expelled from your home/family. Does she have a confidant she can use as a sounding board who understands open lifestyles, but is not a lover?

 

[PhoenixStGeorge]

Oh, and as you're in chat with him now, a question for you-- how do you feel about submitting?

(I'm a little concerned for the kids, but setting them aside for now, hoping they are being shielded and protected from all this.)

I ask because you seem so intent on saving your marriage, and very willing to be the bigger person, that I wonder what might happen if you played along. It may very well endear you to your wife, give you a new (sub) experience you might enjoy, and allow you to work through this with less conflict. Of course, that depends on how upstanding vs cowboy this dom guy can be...

 

[PinkPig]

Of course, that depends on how upstanding vs cowboy this dom guy can be....

As I was told when I was concerned about a possible cowgirl, no one can rope away a man or woman without his/her consent. A cowgirl/cowboy can certainly bring drama to a relationship, but only if the other party allows it. If the dom is a cowboy, it's because the wife is willing to go.

 

[Inthedark]

Phoenix, thank you for sharing your story. I think that is exactly where my wife is, at least right now. I am 100% ok with being submissive to my wife, but not to her Dom. I may be on the verge of working this out.

 

[GalaGirl]

What do you think?

I think that this...

Unfortunately, the specter of divorce has been hung over my head so many times in the last 16 years that it has become like the story of the boy who cried wolf. I can't believe it. Therefore, at some point I am going to get eaten up and no one is going to come to my rescue!

... is emotional abuse. You might not identify it as such, but it is.

If you can already see that you will get eaten up at some point if you continue this way, you could take steps to rescue yourself. You are responsible for your own emergency preparedness. You could change your behaviors.

I think that this...

I told her that I was committed to giving her everything that she wants.

is an unhealthy commitment for you, as written. For it to be healthy for all, it needs to be more like, "I am committed to 1) meeting my wants and needs first, so I run on a full tank of gas and I don't burn out. Then 2) I can help you attain your reasonable, rational wants and needs." And she could do the same back.

If she wants you to do it all while she does nothing, that is not you helping her. That is you doing it all. You say no.

If what she wants hurts herself or others, you could say, "No, I will not participate in that."

If she's hell bent on going there anyway, you could step aside and let her go, because you have to meet your own need first-- the need to stay healthy and sane for your sake and your kids' sake while she's off doing whatever.

When she said, "From now on, if you want anything else, you have to ask (my dom's) permission."

I think you could have said, “No, thank you.” You said it yourself--

To me, it is funny that I am expected to show this man deference and respect when he has shown me none.

They can have disappointed expectations, then!

You do not have to sign up to be his sub via her. You do not have to defer to him and show him respect.

I think you could delete/destroy the sex video. Then she cannot send it, even if she's already promised not to. And don't make any new ones.

All this said, I believe that this whole thing equates to the loss of my primary status. I am now reduced to being a roommate. Granted, a roommate that pays all the bills, provides food, shelter and transportation, cooks, cleans, packs lunches and irons her scrubs every morning before work. Is it wrong of me to expect, if she has transferred primary status to him, that he start providing for her?

That doesn't sound unreasonable to me. Few people want to be doing the lion's share of work for very little in return.

You could tell her you plan to relieve yourself of this imbalance. You plan to only pay your fair half starting on X date.

Either she pays her own way for her half, or she shares the costs with him, or she gets him to pay all her bills. That is all her deal to solve.

You could choose not to pay more than your fair half anymore, then get on with removing yourself as her roommate, and take the kids with you. Whatever chores you do around your home are for you and the kids, not for her.

Either seek a temporary separation, or file for divorce. Don't be there for these shenanigans. See a professional to help you -- a counselor, mediator, lawyer, whoever you need to get back some perspective. You are being treated poorly. You tolerating it doesn't "prove" you are her best knight in shining armor. (Do you suffer from "white knight syndrome" stuff?)

I think if you are being offered the role of “Be my dom's other sub, be my roomie, and pay all my bills” you could say “No, thank you. This does not work for me. We need to separate for a time so you can be free to do your thing, and I can be free from it affecting my life."

Whether or not a trial separation becomes permanent, or if it is just temporary and she comes to appreciate you more -- be willing to find out, so you can be healthier.

Why? Because--

I absolutely hate it! I do not like living this way or feeling this way.

Remember you wrote that earlier?

To answer your question, all options in regards to saving this marriage have not yet been exhausted, therefore, I will not quit. So, yes, I am waiting for her to make a move.

I think she is making a passive-aggressive move. She may be trying to make your life so hellish you will be the one to file for divorce.

I think you could use a different strategy in that case.

This "I will not quit, no matter what" go-go-go strategy can get exhausting. Step back, regroup, head to new location, and wait. That's not quitting. It's using a different strategy.

Surely, as a soldier, you realize that not all maneuvers are "chase the other side around the map." Sometimes you predict where they will end up, and go there first and wait for them to arrive.

I'm not there yet. I don't want to hear the answer. Plus, with all the times it has been said (as recently as last month, in fact) I can't trust that that is truly how she feels.

You wanting a separation, or filing for divorce at this time, would not be about how she feels. It would be about you and the kids getting away from this crazy stuff and you getting some healing time.

Right now, you seem to be hanging around for scraps. You are subsuming yourself to the relationship because you are afraid to face your fear that it is over.

You keep wanting to "fight for it" to return to something healthy. You do not seem to want to accept that even if you fight 100%, if she's just not interested in participating in a healthy marriage anymore, you cannot force her. She is not putting in her 100% share.

What you can do is get you and the kids away from the

• Criticism
• Defensiveness
• Contempt
• Stonewalling-- no feedback or information

I know you want to “take the high road” – but there's another high road. There's removing you and the children from all this crazy. Love her from a distance. Step aside and let her make her mess.

If she ever comes back to her senses, then there's healthy you and kids to return to. Better than a run-down-depressed you who was trampled on during the mess-making because you chose to stay in the line of fire!

To me, is funny that I am expected to show this man deference and respect when he has shown me none.

To me, it is funny you keep focusing on the Dom and the wife, but not the little people-- the kids and their well-being, or you and your well-being.

I think you could defer dealing with all the dom/wife crazy stuff and focus on your and the kids' well-being. I think you could start behaving in a way that demonstrates self-respect. Get yourself and the kids to higher ground, safe and secure, out of the splash zone of this mess.

She's starting to use you as a plaything in her game with her dom because you allow it.

SAY NO. Then get out of the way. Separate or file for divorce. Let yourself heal from all this poor treatment. And on her end, let yourself be missed, because she sure isn't appreciating you when you are there, "no matter what," and I don't see where she would come to her senses without feeling a loss first. She takes you for granted. So don't be there. Let the loss be felt. Then let the chips fall where they may.

It isn't unheard of for divorced people to get married to each other again. I personally know two couples who did that. But they seriously needed that time apart in order to grow and become able to be together again peacefully.

I think instead of avoiding your fear, you could face it, take better charge of your life, take better care of yourself and your kids while your wife is all.... weird.

I'm sorry you have to deal in this. But you still have to deal with it. Don't run way from it/avoid dealing with it.

Galagirl

 

[Tinwen]

Oooooh, crap. Not only because I had a fight with my dom just now about how controlling my outside relationships was disrespectful to the third party-- your writing is very upsetting to me.

"From now on, if you want anything else, you have to ask permission." Endorphins running high, I thought that maybe the contempt in her eyes was actually a dark playfulness. ... So I asked, "Ask you?" She said no. So I asked, "Ask him?" referring to her online Dom. She said yes.

Uaaa. Bad. I agree that this equals loss of primary status.

I also perceive it as quite disrespectful. I don't know if from him or her. Either she really does want to make you her secondary now, and has told her dom so (humiliating you in the process), or he's being totally out of touch with reality.

I would also consider it perfectly reasonable to withdraw from contact and go live and process elsewhere for a few days or weeks, if you can sort out caring for the kids. She might realize what she feels, what she is losing, etc.

There was a flash of anger and jealousy and pain, but I reined it in.

It's perfectly fine to feel pain about that. It's perfectly fine to express it to your wife, though preferably in a controlled safe environment (therapy), or in a controlled manner.

I told her that I was committed to giving her everything she wants.

Seriously, I would take a huge step back from this view now. Being supportive does not mean sacrificing yourself!

Stand your ground. If submitting to him is more than you can take, you must tell her.

She won't accept it immediately. Try to be ok staying in conflict for a while, not accusing her of being bad, but making it clear you mean it. (I'm not sure about the best way to do that.)

Is it wrong of me to expect, if she has transferred primary status to him, that he start providing for her? Am I wrong in wanting him to pay for her car, food, half of the mortgage? Shouldn't he put her on his health insurance? I've never not been the primary, so I'm not sure.

If you can take not being primary, but would build up resentment about this? Stand your ground, and tell her you don't consent to pay for everything under these circumstances. She will feel the consequences of not treating her husband as a partner. Your money is your money. You can tell her that you are not ok paying for everything, now that she has degraded your role in her life to coparent/supposed-to-be submissive/whatever. You can demand she pays at least more than she did. She got a better job, so the balance is shifting anyway. You might be ok for paying for family food, but not her car or anything else, and it's reasonable to tell her to pay more of the mortgage then she does.
However, I don't think it's reasonable to expect her dom to do it. Let it be her problem, to pay for it herself, or ask him for support. (I doubt he will.)

I don't know if firming up you boundaries in this case (highly recommended!) will break your marriage. It will certainly get things moving. She might say "Ok, if it's not like I want it, than I'd rather divorce." Or, she might actually gain some respect for her husband, because he has a spine and can speak up for himself.

I'm very sorry this is happening.

I am curious about your chat now.

 

[Tinwen]

I don't see where she would come to her senses without feeling a loss first.

Yes, this was one of my main points, as well. This is one of the point where fights, however terrible, are useful.

 

[powerpuffgrl1969]

Ivylein, he cannot carry 100% of the relationship. He has been creative, deferential, and patient. Have you not read all of his posts? I'm with GalaGirl and Tinwen that enough is enough. There's a difference between polyamory and manipulation.

 

[PhoenixStGeorge]

As I was told when I was concerned about a possible cowgirl....no one can rope away a man or woman without their consent. A cowgirl/cowboy can certainly bring drama to a relationship, but only if the other party allows it. If the dom is a cowboy, it's because the wife is willing to go...

Fair.., however, my post wasn't really about whether he's a cowboy, it's about whether he's a fair playmate who might allow for this to turn into a fun experiment, or whether this dom guy is truly toxic and unable to treat Inthedark and their marriage with respect, regardless of the dom/sub context.

 

[Spork]

I think it's very important to break out of the cultural construct where women are usually the abuse victims in relationships.

My friend, I ask you to imagine a couple where the man is treating the woman as your wife has been treating you. Humiliating her. Making her live with the possibility of sharing explicit photos and/or videos with someone she did not consent to, doesn't know, expecting her to be part of a power-dynamic relationship with someone she didn't consent to and doesn't know. General contempt and disregard.

These things are emotional abuse.

Now, I have said it before, the difference between BDSM (and all associated power-exchange activities) and abuse, is CONSENT. So the only thing that matters is what you consent to, and what you do not. Be honest with yourself, and with her. Is it only fear motivating you to try and "take the high road" and put up with anything and everything? Fear of breaking up the family? Fear that she will get custody and you'll lose your kids? Fear that you won't find someone else?

Figure those things out, and once you have, maybe see a lawyer about the custodial stuff. Get a free consult. They can at least give you an idea what to expect, since CO is a no-fault state. You should not live in fear or make your life choices based on fear.

If you consented to being her sub, to being humiliated because in some way it gratifies you, to being a toy in her game with her Dom, then (so long as it's honest and not motivated by simple fear of loss) fine! You do you.

I just don't like to see you accept things that are hurtful and abusive to you, because you are afraid of the alternative.

Also, yes, it is unrealistic to expect him to pay for stuff. She is a person. How her expenses get paid can be HER problem if you're not covering it. She is not an object that another man's hand has come and snatched from yours, she is not a dependent (whatever the Army says) and she can darn well pay her own bills or live with the consequences, if it comes to it. No man buys her love, sex, primary status, etc., with his paychecks.

 

[Inthedark]

I am very curious about your chat now.

It's interesting, to say the least. He is being a little passive-aggressive. He is trying to rush me into an agreement. We have given each other one concession, and now he is expecting that I will accept everything that he wants. I just asked him what I get if I allow this power exchange. He gets what he wants, my wife gets what she wants, but what do I get?

It would be really easy for me to turn off the internet and cancel our phone service. Just saying.

 

[kdt26417]

Re (from Inthedark):

What do you think?

Oh God. I don't normally recommend divorce, but I am sorely tempted. A wife should not treat her husband the way your wife is treating you.

Re:

Is it wrong of me to expect, if she has transferred primary status to him, that he start providing for her? Am I wrong in wanting him to pay for her car, food, her half of the mortgage? Shouldn't he put her on his health insurance?

I completely agree with you. Although, being in the right doesn't always mean that the other people involved will work with you.

Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[kdt26417]

Another thought occurs to me. Even if you don't sue for divorce, you should get a consultation with a lawyer. Find out what your options are. Find out what you can expect as far as the Law is concerned. Your wife is playing hardball with you. Protect yourself if you can.

 

[Spork]

Another thought occurs to me. Even if you don't sue for divorce, you should get a consultation with a lawyer. Find out what your options are. Find out what you can expect as far as the law is concerned. Your wife is playing hardball with you. Protect yourself if you can.

Yes.

Even though I had little desire to actually PAY a lawyer and go the hostile divorce route, I really wanted to know what to expect out of the whole thing.

So... Colorado courts don't give a fig about anybody sleeping around. That might come into alimony discussions, but not child custody, initial settlements, who gets the home, etc. The first and main thing is "What is best for the children?" If they are of a certain age, they might simply be asked which parent they wish to live with (teens usually are) and while that won't override any evidently unfit parenting, it can hold weight. After they determine who has primary custody, then they look at who NEEDS what for the sake of the kids. The house, mainly. If one spouse is awarded the house, then they usually have to refi if both names are on it, to get the leaving spouse off the loan, and pay out any equity owed to the other spouse. If neither spouse CAN refi the house, then it's usually court ordered to be sold and the profit or loss split 50/50. Then there are categories of things that belong clearly to one spouse or the other, and marital property that is split 50/50. Child support and visitation is all worked out, and finally the big one...spousal maintenance (alimony.) Women don't automatically get it, sometimes they have to pay it. That is the biggest piece that can be contested and fought over.

If you can agree on absolutely everything, you don't need to hire anyone, just do a heap of paperwork and file it and pay the filing fees. If you can't agree but aren't severely hostile about major issues, you can do mediation, which usually costs less, and if you are seriously fighting about things, then get lawyers. Also, you can do legal separation, which is very similar to divorce, or you can do the divorce thing. In either case, you have to divide assets, liabilities, custody, etc all has to be settled, but the difference is that for separation, you can't remarry, you still inherit like married people, and there may be SOME insurance policies you can continue to share. In CO, that is the only difference. It is easy to modify a separation into a divorce after a certain time has passed.

So, that's the facts, Jack.

That's what I got out of my consultation.

But you, if you do one, and you should, need to mention that you have documented treatment for mental health issues, and she might try to use that against you, and you want to preserve your parental rights, etc.

Again...not saying that any of this is inevitable. But I'm saying that you should strengthen yourself for the possibility. That saying, "Pray for peace, prepare for war," as it were.

 

[aussiekate]

Inthedark: I'm beginning to get quite worried about you. I really feel compassion for you, and I think that I'd quite like you. I'm much newer to non-monogamy than you, and things aren't going perfectly in my life right now - as you'll see from reading my posts - so take my advice for what it's worth, but I have been with my husband for 24 years and we do love each other very much, and one thing stands out very, very clearly to me:

You don't have a clear vision of what you want, and are being reactive.

You are allowing your wife to emotionally abuse you.

Your only objective seems to be framed in the negative and vaguely, and goes something like: "I can't let this marriage fail!"

It's somewhat analogous to the military goal: "We can't let Saddam keep doing what he's doing!" And I think we both know that that negative and vague goal didn't work out so well.

Your situation goes much broader than this particular Dom of your wife's.

You need to get really clear on what you want from life, and whether your wife's longer-term goals and needs are compatible with yours.

Whatever your particular needs are, everybody needs to be treated with dignity and respect, and it seems to me that you're not getting that, and you need to start insisting upon that, starting today.

I get that you want your marriage to work, and I sincerely hope that that's possible. But to quote Dr Phil - who I frequently disagree with, but I love this quote - "the only thing worse than wasting 16 years with the wrong partner is wasting 16 years and one day".

You need to find out ASAP whether a) this is the right partner, and get working on fixing things so it's a healthier relationship, or b) this is the wrong partner, and start moving on and making space for the right partner.

 

[Ivylein]

powerpuffgrl1969 what is your problem?

Are you involved in this situation?

Have you offered any advice of your own?

Do you realize a full 28% of everything you've ever posted is to rag on me?

I'm seeing InTheDark as a guy who wants to save his marriage, and is coming at it in an adversarial way. That's not going to fair well for him.

If he doesn't want to change the way he's handling this in order to make it work, he might as well go see a lawyer tomorrow.

Back off.