Lets start a revolution

redpepper

New member
It is not wrong "for me". It is just plane wrong


So.... yea, I'm enthusiastic. I think this is huge. It is the equivalent to "the death of god" (Nietzsche). It is equivalent to the discovery of the steam engine. Left to our biology and stripped from the control of religion, our entire society should have been organized RADICALLY differently.

(Yes, I know, they tried it in the 60s...)

Anyway... my two cents.
wow, more than two cents :D

There are a lot of things that are huge in the world... your personal relationship with your self is not one of them. This is "wrong" for just you. If you have read some of the threads and posts here you will see that...

It is rather disrespectful of other peoples journeys to say otherwise. It's disrespectful I think, to people on this very forum who come here to try and understand... who make an attempt to meet us half way and to look for ways we can work together and be together in this world.

It's akin to born again Christians telling me to find Christ or Jehovah Witnesses coming to my door with fear that I might not be saved and go to heaven when judgement day comes... or whatever, I shut off when they start ..... why? Because it's disrespectful and I am uninterested if I am feeling disrespected. It gets my back up, I get defensive and I immediately am in fight mod rather than in empathy/listening/respect/wonder mod.

Poly is based on some foundations that translate to other areas in life... in other relationships. People come here thinking they are going to talk about poly, but really they are largely talking about basic relationship dynamics and how to communicate and be respectful to one another... while I get and cherish your passion I find it difficult to accommodate your style of delivery.

I say this, as I once delivered my passion in a similar way... the point is to find ways to present your passion to those who don't get it in a way that they find interest in investigating more. Shutting them out by telling them they are "wrong" is not going to do that in my opinion. At least this is what I have learned.

It takes many different people to make a village...

Eagles, some vultures, beavers maybe elephants...I'm sure the list is long..
parrots! the animal for poly... they are, in fact, monogamous

Making people to ask questions is not to attack them.... I wish someone "attacked " me like that when I was 15. Educating and advocating monogamy is, to me, nothing less than imoral.
You know what, when I was 15 I wish I had been accepted as a Lesbian! No one even knew what one was in my small town, let alone that it could occur!!!! That is not immoral! That is just lack of education!

People advocate for what they grew up with. They grew up with it, because it served a purpose... to keep us on the same page. The thing is that once we know there are options its important to explore them, try them on, choose them or not and move forward... I believe in educating others to those options as I go along. How does morality fit with that?

It's like saying to a family of brown haired people who lived out in the wild for their whole lives, never having seen a red head, that they are wrong for having brown hair and should dye it red. *WHA?* confusion would follow. Why not patiently explain that it is an option if they want to chose it...you did and it works for you.... why not say what ever they chose is okay...

You would have them all red heads by the end of tomorrow..!. something tells me you would be forced to leave before that happens and would create hatred for the very idea of having red hair. Not to mention created a closet for one or more family members that might of liked to of tried it..... that to me is what is wrong.

I really need to read more about poly... what do you do about kids, if you want them? If you have a main relationship and then 2nds, how is that different from an open relationship?
Are you serious!:eek: .....

Dude.

Please.... please....:confused: with all due respect to all of us here... please do some reading and researching before telling people they are wrong and immoral... HA! *head shake* LOL.... :)

Look, you are totally welcome here. don't get me wrong. We all have our journey, but I just lost a year of my life over your posts only to find out you think you should find out more about poly??? K, that hasn't happened to me for a while on here... :D

carry on. good luck. :)

*sigh*:)
ha!

*moving on*
 

disillusioned

New member
Hmmmmm

We are talking on two different levels here. You talk about "options". If you are gay, is it an option for you? Do you opt to be gay? Or were you born with the option to be gay and then you decide on which side you are on?

I understand that you guys here are poly and you feel that its a choice that you made. I'm here because I realized something else - that we are All, by nature, not monogamous creatures. This mainly relates to sex and I'm talking purely on the academic level of facts,logic, my personal experience etc. And it has nothing to do with choice - it is biological determinism. You don't have the "option " to not eat. You don't have the option to decide if you want to die after X years or live for ever. Nobody asks you... that's just life. And if you were born gay....? That's not an option for you either, right ?

Is it immoral to tell a little boy that he should not "like " other boys because it is "wrong " and he should no be gay? I think yes.

I think it is immoral to "teach " monogamy. I think it is more immoral than teaching "god " because "god " works against our mind and freedom but monogamy works against our body. It is so ingrained into us that even here, on a poly discussion board, I need to defend myself and explain my meaning 5 times.
 
Last edited:

disillusioned

New member
Also, I think realizing that we are not monogamous creatures can only help you guys here, because it explains everything.... why people want / need more than one relationship, why you can have feelings towards two or more people...

I understand that many of you guys feel "special " and more mature than others, and "different ". Then I come along and say "no... you are not different at all ". I understand why this would make you to not like me...

You are special because you were strong enough to see thru the lies. Now be strong enough to realize that you are NOT special in that we were all born non monogamous, and that this is all pure biology and nothing else... and that being poly is a RESULT of this non monogamous nature.

Are you here just to comfort each other or do you also want to find out the reason for all of this and why you are how you are?
 
Last edited:

MonoVCPHG

New member
I understand that many of you guys feel "special " and more mature than others, and "different ". Then I come along and say "no... you are not different at all ". I understand why this would make you to not like me...

You are special because you were strong enough to see thru the lies. Now be strong enough to realize that you are NOT special in that we were all born non monogamous, and that this is all pure biology and nothing else...

It's not that people don't like you disillusioned..it's that you are making blanket statement about every person in the world when the only person you know is yourself. I think it is great that you have done some self research and read some literature, but you're "I am right" attitude makes your opinions seem from a place of bitterness and over excitement that you have found something new. The people on this board have worlds of experience in poly beyond what you can hope to achieve simply through reading. They live it...they have learned through personal experience, real exposure to what you seem to have only read about.

You haven't pointed anything out to anyone. We are not all born non-monogamous my friend....just like we are all not born gay or straight. The only person you can speak about with any authority and credibility is yourself. That's it, your true knowledge does not extend beyond your own mind and heart. Your assumptions that you know anything beyond yourself is what creates the need to explain yourself over and over. Learn to accept that other people know themselves better than anyone else and that there are no definites....then your message will be better received.

There is no acceptance to be gained through your approach..only resistance. Show some acceptance, step down from the position of being all knowing about the human race and just share your "experiences" with us. That is the way to show people how good what you believe in is :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

MonoVCPHG

New member
Just read this again....you're getting resistance form a board that is very poly orientated...why is that? You really need to do some heavy reading on here my friend. All your misconceptions about how people think on here is do to not having read the stories and thoughts of those who contribute.

Just trying to help.

Also, I think realizing that we are not monogamous creatures can only help you guys here, because it explains everything.... why people want / need more than one relationship, why you can have feelings towards two or more people...

I understand that many of you guys feel "special " and more mature than others, and "different ". Then I come along and say "no... you are not different at all ". I understand why this would make you to not like me...

You are special because you were strong enough to see thru the lies. Now be strong enough to realize that you are NOT special in that we were all born non monogamous, and that this is all pure biology and nothing else... and that being poly is a RESULT of this non monogamous nature.

Are you here just to comfort each other or do you also want to find out the reason for all of this and why you are how you are?
 
Last edited:

disillusioned

New member
We are not all born gay or straight ... but these are preferences, orientations...

The question if are we monogamous creatures or not is one level deeper. It is about the core, the basis.. what is the underlining nature of our sexual drives and needs. Sexual preferences come way way later down the road. Do you see the difference?
 
Last edited:

MonoVCPHG

New member
We are not all born gay or straight ... but these are preferences, orientations...

The question if are we monogamous creatures or not is one level deeper. It is about the core, the basis.. what is the underlining nature of our sexual nature. Sexual preferences come way way later down the road. Do you see the difference?

I think you are implying that sexual orientation is learned later in life. I am not even touching that one :eek: I must admit I am not sure where you are going with this but ultimately I find it ironic that a monogamous person is defending the valid ideas and experiences of people on a poly board; why is that when I could just focus on my own certainty of monogamy within myself?...because I accept that people are only truly known to themselves, by themselves.

The truth of our individual orientations and preferences resides in each of us..not in the opinions of any person regardless of education or credentials.

To tell people they are a certain way, born a certain way, love a certain way or want certain things is nothing more than dictatorship. This is not a community that abides by that type or authoritative approach.

Everyone is free to express ideas on here. But we are almost always careful to own those ideas and not cast them on to others.

This is where you can develop skills to share your positive feelings and beliefs without causing a natural defensive posture in your audience. If people who are poly react this way imagine what the rest of mainstream monogamous society will react like?

Stop saying "you are wrong" and start saying "look at this wonderful thing I have discovered".
 

disillusioned

New member
I'm not saying orientation is learned, exactly the opposite. It is coded into your DNA and you are born a certain way. And your core sexual and emotional behavior is coded in you too, and I'm saying it is not monogamous.

You are all really nice and open people. I have an advanced degree in the social sciences (but I'm not American as you can tell) so I look at things in an academic and scientific way. I had articles published in my field and won awards for some of the things I wrote. We are just looking at things from a different perspective, you talk about the everyday experiences that people have here, I talk about the nature of our race.
 

FlameKat

New member
I'm not saying orientation is learned, exactly the opposite. It is coded into your DNA and you are born a certain way. And your core sexual and emotional behavior is coded in you too, and I'm saying it is not monogamous.

You are all really nice and open people. I have an advanced degree in the social sciences (but I'm not American as you can tell) so I look at things in an academic and scientific way. I had articles published in my field and won awards for some of the things I wrote. We are just looking at things from a different perspective, you talk about the everyday experiences that people have here, I talk about the nature of our race.

Step down off your soapbox a little here... whether or not we are 'coded' as a species to be monogamous or non-monogamous... it IS somewhat presumptious of you to come in here spouting these things as the be all end all truth of things... particularly on a board that is supportive of both poly and mono people... neither are wrong ways to be... and coding? it may just be possible for 'rogue' coding to be out there - coding people as monogamous... (*noting I do not agree with the OP on this topic - i do not regard monogamy as 'rogue' i am simply relating it in answer to the terms the op was using)

if it is in the DNA it is still possible for people to be born monogamous, just as it is possible for people to be coded poly... it doesn't matter in the end - because in the end we each are who we are and that is what is at the heart of places like this - helping each of us accept ourselves as we are... and our partners.. however many we may have.

Essentially though the reason you are being jumped on and argued with is the patronising air to your posts... woop de do - you won awards - guess what i got medals in gymnastics and awards in chemistry/physics - doesn't make me an expert or in the slightest authorised to coach anyone in the fields - it also doesnt give me the right to put down the thoughts or opinions of anyone else - in any way shape or form

back up and slow down...

Edit: and the main reason I was answering this thread in the first bloody place... life would be far easier if the relationship 'norms' were not taught socially or in the education system... and by that i mean any relationship - gay/straight/bi/trans/mono/poly whatever ... ALL should be taught or none... I feel the seem about religions... but that is just me and my opinion
 
Last edited:

disillusioned

New member
Annie Hall - Woody Allen -1977

Alvy Singer: Here, you look like a very happy couple, um, are you?
Female street stranger: Yeah.
Alvy Singer: Yeah? So, so, how do you account for it?
Female street stranger: Uh, I'm very shallow and empty and I have no ideas and nothing interesting to say.
Male street stranger: And I'm exactly the same way.
Alvy Singer: I see. Wow. That's very interesting.

***

You keep telling me the same thing - "people are different". If you don't want to have a discussion and try to dig deeper into the nature of relationships and sexuality, in a broader and more intellectual way, that's fine with me. I know, it's hard. The ramifications of such discussion can be devastating, even disastrous. It is much easier to explain everything by saying that people are people and we all have different orientations and that's that. Boy, how much I wish I thought the same way too.

Interested parties can PM me. Thanks
 

nycindie

Active member
Disillusioned,
This is a discussion board. Of course, people here want to discuss and "dig deeper." That's all we do here. Have you read much of it? Look at how many pages and pages of posts there are here, where people are digging deeper. However, what folks are saying here is that you seem to be talking down to anyone with a different opinion or idea, in quite a condescending manner. That is not discussion. That is browbeating.

No one here has said they don't want to discuss the topic you brought up. However, the request has been made numerous times for you to look at the way in which you attempted to engage us and make an adjustment to that. In other words, please dial down the "holier than thou" attitude that you've put forth. Even in your last post, you seem to be saying that you are the one here who knows how to carry on a "broader and more intellectual" discussion, and that reads as maddeningly arrogant. I'm sure many of us here, if not most, would appreciate hearing your perspective and discussing it intelligently, if only your delivery wasn't so confrontational and hard to swallow.

I'm actually wondering if you're just a troll.
 
Last edited:

BlackUnicorn

New member
I guess what the original poster is talking about is a need (some) people have for sexual variety as in multiple sexual partners during their life cycle, which isn't really what inspires the most polyamorous people, I guess. I mean, there is swinging and open relationships for pure variety-seekers. I am someone who considers herself to be a very sexual person, but I would have no problem for at least the next decade or so to engage in polyromance only with no physical relationships with any of my loved ones. Polyamory, for me, is about being able and willing to express 'couple love' towards more than one person at a time. It if it includes sex, great, but for a variety of reasons, not all couples are sexual with each other all the time during the course of their relationship. Love doesn't begin and end in between the sheets.
 

Penny

New member
I read Sex at Dawn. It was fascinating and, in many ways, uplifting. I will not go so far as to bring up my qualifications to have an opinion on this or any of the follow-up research I've done, except to say that I indeed do have such academic qualifications but bringing them up in this context is like saying, hey, look, I'm smarter than you, I can think better than you, so your opinions, observations, and experiences are less valuable to this dialogue than mine.

I have met many people with advanced degrees who are total idiots. Not saying this is the case with the OP, but flaunting a degree doesn't mean anything if it isn't backed up by convincing argument.

If scientists proved that grass was purple, they could publish all the papers they wanted to about it, and yet, as an empiricist, I would still believe that grass is green. After all, it is still green for all practical intents and purposes.

Sex at Dawn focuses on our polyamorous natures, but it also demonstrates that humans evolved to have a mixed reproductive strategy. This does not exclude monogamy as a viable option. Certainly we were meant to be much more egalitarian in our sexual practices, and certainly polyamory is natural, but you cannot tell a person who feels, even after deep self-reflection and contemplation, that monogamy is a better fit for them that they are wrong.

I have observed many long-lasting, beautiful and close monogamous relationships. The OP seems to deny that they exist, without presenting convincing evidence to the contrary. I am not that easily swayed into disbelieving the evidence of my own senses, observations, and experience. I have read the book, yet remain unconvinced that these relationships would have gained anything from nonmonogamy.

While he has many interesting points, I find his manner off-putting. Even insulting.

Also, reading one book does not make anyone an expert.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect
 

disillusioned

New member

Haha, interesting. I might be an idiot. But the fact that I won every single award in my department while a student, makes it unlikely. And that's why I brought it up only deep into this discussion, because you kept telling me "you don't understand!" as if I'm an idiot... I don't understand what? That all people are "different" from each other?

If we were monogamous, we would bond with one person until death, never look left or right, never have recreational sex, there would have been no reason for multiple orgasms, sperm wars wouldn't make any sense, pornography would have been at the fringe, escort services none existent... It is just that, for me, yes, for ME, the evidence is so overwhelming that I can't wrap my mind around the idea that it is not "obvious" for everybody.

But then again, 90% of people believe in a "god" so...

OK, I must remind myself how emotional and irrational people are, and move on.... thanks
 

disillusioned

New member
Sex at Dawn focuses on our polyamorous natures, but it also demonstrates that humans evolved to have a mixed reproductive strategy. This does not exclude monogamy as a viable option.

The question is "what is the natural strategy?" (natural as in "what is our real nature?"). Rape has also been, at times, a viable option to reproduce.

Is there a variety of strategies? sure.. you only need to look back 70 years to Nazi Germany, where the state put together tall blond female officers with tall blond male officers, so they would "create" a "perfect Aryan baby". I'm sure it seemed "normal" to them.

But look at high schools today, teen pregnancies... today teens first have sex, THEN start dating.

Is monogamy a viable option? yea...... sure. From all viable options what is the likelihood that it is the most basic and natural option, when you consider all the evidence to the contrary? About one in a million. Even catholic priests can't keep their hands off the cookie jar ! How strong should the urge for novelty be so even the most powerful person in the world won't be able to control it??? Ask Monica Lewinsky....
 
Last edited:

AutumnalTone

New member
I might be an idiot. But the fact that I won every single award in my department while a student, makes it unlikely.

An indirect appeal to authority is still a fallacious argument. There are other folks here with at least the same claim to "authority," so this sort of nonsense won't play well.
 

Derbylicious

New member
Most things with human sexuality are on a spectrum. It might very well be true that the majority of people are non-monogamous by nature but there are absolutely some that are monogamous-till-death-do-us-part through and through and others who are serial monogamists, only able to be with one person at a time. As far as I can see these ways of being are as much genetically encoded (if you want to make that argument) as being poly.

It's the same as the straight to gay spectrum. Most people fall somewhere in the middle. Although they may have a stronger preference one way or the other, under the right circumstances they could be involved with someone who isn't of the normally prefered gender.
 
Last edited:

disillusioned

New member
I'm sitting in a coffee shop now and a couple is breaking up, right in front of me, exchanging bags with what each person had in the other person's apartment. They are of the same nationality as me but we are in another country, so they didn't bother to not be loud thinking that nobody understands them.

God... the irony.

The girl left without looking back. The guy was trying to be hard with her but you could see how sad he was. Too bad, if they only knew it was coded in their DNA maybe they would have been nicer to each other... not hurt, not angry... they could have told each other "That's life, relationships can't last forever, despite what all those songs on radio say..."

Jesus, I wish I was a believer.... I feel like I'm 7 years old again, realizing for the first time that my parents can't answer all my questions. Terrible.
 
Last edited:
Top