Long distance issues for this unusual V.

lunabunny

New member
The backstory of our poly-fi V triad is described in the Introduction thread under the title "The Accidental Polyamorist". Our beginnings were unusual to say the least, if not strictly unique.

To sum up: I met my long distance male lover, J, on a social media site three or four years ago. We were just friends until we began private messaging around two years ago. Although I attempted to ascertain J's personal circumstances, I did not discover he was already involved with a mutual online friend, B, until he and I had already declared our love for each other. B's and J's relationship was also long distance but had progressed to real life meetings which included sex, unbeknownst to me. Unfortunately, while J considered them to be close friends with benefits only, B believed they were true soul mates in deep mutual love.

This situation blew up when I more or less guessed what was going on and asked her (B) for confirmation. At this point J essentially "chose" me over B and he and I began online "dating" in a very intense way. We committed to each other almost immediately which naturally left B heartbroken and lost. I felt for her, truly, but my feelings for J were undeniable and vice versa.

J wanted to be the best partner he could be for me, and despite a history littered with substance abuse issues and other problems, he voluntarily checked into a residential rehab for many months. This might have severely hampered our developing relationship yet the following six-eight months were some of the happiest of my life. J had remained platonic friends with B throughout that time, although she had blocked me on social media. I was skeptical of their motivations for wanting to stay in such close contact, yet it didn't affect J's and my blossoming relationship in any overly negative way.

Eventually J encountered several major life changes that resulted in a notable decrease in time spent together, to a point where I began to feel my needs for time, affection and intimacy were not being met by him. Confused and sad, I spiralled into depression. Once B had recovered enough to allow me back into her life, she and I began confiding in each other until there came a day when we both "just knew" we'd crossed the boundary from friendship to something else. So I confessed to J and asked permission to become involved with B - to which he enthusiastically capitulated. His agreement left me feeling simultaneously relieved AND disheartened. (How could he want to "share" me? etc.) Nevertheless, the two relationships established themselves side-by-side, as stressful as maintaining them has sometimes been, and my relationship with B is now over a year old.

During this time TWO major unrelated issues have presented themselves:

- J's growing unavailability has worn me down emotionally to a point where, last November, I had a breakdown and had to stop working. (I was also suffering some concurrent health issues which are on their way to being resolved now.) He answers messages haphazardly, spends a fraction of the time chatting to me than he used to, and rarely shows an interest in any sexual activity, let alone initiates it.
Yes, I am sure he does not have anyone else. And yes, I have addressed this issue with him time and again, to no avail. He DOES tell me more often than he WAS that he loves me, however, although he remains very inconsistent when it comes to communicating. More worryingly still, I recently discovered he had not been honest about remaining completely clean this past year. Substance use has reared its head again, probably suppressing any other head-rearing that I'd hoped to spark.

The second issue is this:

- B made it clear from the moment she and I got together that she'd "ideally" love to have something with BOTH J and I - our own happy little family - eventually. I've always been somewhat wary of B's motives but I do love her and I could see the sense in it since she and J used to be an item and I am "with" the both of them now. So, wishing to please her, I agreed to consider her request, vacillating back and forth until I somehow found myself promising to "try it and see" when all three of us were to meet for the first time in person in April this year.
Unfortunately, though the individual meetings went extremely well (including great sexual chemistry with each in a "real life" setting), our attempt at threesome sex was less stellar - for me - as I suspected it would be. I was too nervous and off-put by a past bad experience to really "go with the flow" and the next morning felt horrible, sickened, dirty and jealous. I hadn't been able to relax and enjoy myself, but had instead dissociated and "gone along" with it with a smile plastered on my face, despite wanting to scream "no no no!" the entire time. The next day J and B both felt terrible when they realised how I really felt, and eventually after many discussions and arguments once I returned home, we've decided NOT to force this to be a triad in that sense, but instead to remain a V.

My problem is, those two are due to go away on a short trip in a couple of weeks - something they've done several times before even after their sexual relationship ended - and I'm dreading it. These "fun" catch-ups always sadden me because I can't join them (I live in another country) but after our last threeway encounter, I'm feeling especially insecure and vulnerable about them getting together without me. Moreover, in light of J's emotional absence and lack of interest in (cyber)sex these days, it just feels so unbalanced and "unfair" that B gets to enjoy his company in close quarters while I cannot. To clarify, they've both assured me they will not be engaging in physical intimacy beyond hugging, kissing in greeting, possibly holding hands and the like - and I believe them - but in the past I've had issues with their "platonic intimacy" going too far (ie: bed sharing, foot rubs, massages, walking with arms around each other, laying with heads in lap etc.) Neither believe these things constitute going too far, but that kind of behaviour between former lovers makes me anxious and uncomfortable.
 
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I am so confused. Could you answer a few questions that might help me understand your situation?

1. Are you and B currently in a relationship with each other?
2. Are you and J currently in a relationship with each other?
3. Are J and B currently in a relationship with each other?
4. You describe yourself as a V -- who is the hinge in your V? J, B, or you?

I am just really confused because it sounds like you all are (or want to be) in a closed triad. You don't have to have 3somes in order to be a triad. There's nothing that says that the sex you have with each other has to happen at the same time.

Aside from my confusion about who is interested in whom/what, I see the biggest red flag here to be the substance abuse and the fact that J doesn't seem to be a very honest person -- both with you and with B.
 
Hi, MsEmotional, thanks for your reply. The full backstory of my relationship is in the Introduction section, but I can see how my explanation above could be confusing.

1. Are you and B currently in a relationship with each other?
2. Are you and J currently in a relationship with each other?
3. Are J and B currently in a relationship with each other?
4. You describe yourself as a V -- who is the hinge in your V? J, B, or you?

To clarify: J (m/58), B (f/56) and I (lunabunny/f/49) consider ourselves to be in a closed V - with me as the hinge. I am currently in sexual/romantic relationships with both J (for the past two years) and B (for one year).

J and B are former lovers. When I first "met" both of them online those two were secretly involved in a FWB arrangement, complicated by the fact that B was deeply in love with J and considered him her "soul mate".

When J and I fell for each other, an emotional mess ensued which resulted in J and B parting ways, while he and I embarked on a relationship. Those two remained platonic friends although B was devastated by the dissolution of their arrangement.

J, who struggles with addiction and ADHD, went into rehab and got clean. He asked me to marry him quite early on (although distance and other issues prevent this from happening right now.)

About seven months into my relationship with J, B and I renewed our acquaintance and gradually grew closer until it became obvious there were genuine feelings between she and I. Meanwhile J had pulled away somewhat as various complex issues resurfaced in his life. He gave me the go-ahead to begin a relationship with B *concurrent* with ours (J's and mine) and here we all are.



I am just really confused because it sounds like you all are (or want to be) in a closed triad. You don't have to have 3somes in order to be a triad.

Yes, we ARE in a closed triad, albeit one that is mostly conducted online due to distance. (I live in a different country to both of my lovers, while they live on opposite sides of the USA.)

We HAVE all met in person at various times, and each person has engaged in sex with the others individually AND as a group (threeway sex occurred once in "real life", recently, and 2-3 times in cyber form prior to that.)

As I've said elsewhere on this forum, I AM aware that 3-way sexual activity isn't a prerequisite of any triad, however it is something B made clear she wanted to try, with an aim of working towards a fully integrated poly-fi triad, so (against my instincts) I agreed to give it a go for her sake, as did J.

Those two took the threesome in stride (especially B who found it extremely pleasurable and satisfying), however it affected me really badly and I have since delineated firmer boundaries/hard limits relating to group sex and intimacy between J and B.

Current problem: In two weeks my lovers will be going away on a trip together, without me. This will be the first time they've seen each other since the ill-fated threesome, and while I trust them both not to break the boundaries I've put in place re: no intimacy between them (they're the "ends" of our V), I am still terribly nervous and know I'll spend those five days curled in a ball, "seeing" what happened last time and worrying unnecessarily. (Yes, I have clinical depression and anxiety.)

I see the biggest red flag here to be the substance abuse and the fact that J doesn't seem to be a very honest person -- both with you and with B.

You are right of course. Alongside his no longer meeting my needs for communication or sex and the (now more or less resolved) issue of group sex, detailed above, J's drug use and suspect level of honesty surrounding difficult topics are/have been major points of contention in our relationship.

While in many ways, J is the sweetest and most honourable man you could meet, he is pretty conflict avoidant and simply cannot stand to be the source of another's pain. This is admirable in some ways, however these traits have caused him to lie-by-omission in the past, and generally not want to address important topics if he suspects doing so will greatly upset the other person. In other words, he'd rather sweep things under the carpet than "get real".
 
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It sounds like you'd do well to seek local partners with better communication skills. A long distance and distant male partner, a long distance female who loves him who loves her not... doesn't sound ideal.
 
I'm not sure why you have the boundary in place that they cannot have intimacy together. And they are going on vacation together? This is a situation that is set up to fail.
 
It sounds like you'd do well to seek local partners with better communication skills. A long distance and distant male partner, a long distance female who loves him who loves her not... doesn't sound ideal.

You're right, it's not ideal, especially from that perspective.

I am not on the lookout for love or partners, however. Frankly, I don't identity as "poly" despite my current situation, which I've written about in more detail in the Introduction section.

I just happened to fall in love with this particular person (J) quite unexpectedly, and he with me. B was a mutual friend of ours, and a very close friend and former casual sex partner of his, with whom I gradually developed a strong love bond as well.

None of us three have any motivation or desire to find other partners for love or sex outside of the group. We are committed to making this work. J stresses patience, but I haven neither his calmness or optimism. We have divergent needs, he and I, in terms of time spent communicating. B's needs align better with mine. She and I have begun to forge a new understanding and repair damaged trust over the past month or so, but there's some way to go yet.
 
I'm not sure why you have the boundary in place that they cannot have intimacy together. And they are going on vacation together? This is a situation that is set up to fail.

Thanks for responding. I know it must sound confusing, as parts of my story/explanation are in this thread and other parts in my Introduction.

What I may not have explained is that J and B have been on vacation together several times already (since their "breakup" in 2015) without engaging in sexual intimacy.

They are not currently involved in a relationship with each other except as ends/arms of our V. They love each other but are not IN love. (Though by her own admission, B struggled to get over J for a long time after their breakup.)

And yes, she was the one who pushed to include intimacy between them as part of our group deal, but now claims she regrets this after seeing how badly I was hurt after the threesome.

For his part, J could "take or leave" the sexual side with B. He was only going along with it because he thought that was what she and I both wanted. (While I only agreed to TRY to please B.)

J has a lower libido than B or I and isn't overly motivated towards sex, especially with someone he isn't in love with. Therefore, I can't see a reason to make intimacy part of the dynamic between those two, if all parties are not enthusiastically on board and it's just going to cause hurt and complications.
 
And yes, she was the one who pushed to include intimacy between them as part of our group deal, but now claims she regrets this after seeing how badly I was hurt after the threesome.

For his part, J could "take or leave" the sexual side with B. He was only going along with it because he thought that was what she and I both wanted. (While I only agreed to TRY to please B.)

FWIW I think that is the take home nugget.

In this V people agree not push for things. They request. But not push.

And people do stuff from a "joyous yes" place because they want the thing themselves. Not just go along with stuff trying to make other people happy. Stop being people pleasers.

Could call it a learning experience.

And maybe step further back to examine motives. Is she dating you for you? Or just in hopes to secure access to him? When he is still meh about her?

Be more clear and firm about what this is. An earnest V for all participants? Or a V for two but a wannabe triad for her? If you guys are not all the same page this thing doesn't sound like it will fly well. It sounds like you would be working at cross purposes.

Galagirl
 
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I'm not sure why you have the boundary in place that they cannot have intimacy together. And they are going on vacation together? This is a situation that is set up to fail.

Okay, I think I just realised I have the boundary in place because I fear that engaging in physical intimacy (on top of spending time having fun as friends) will somehow change their relationship from one of great friends with a deep, almost spiritual connection, to romantic partners with an emotional love bond, akin to the one I share with each of them.

Why would this be a problem, you experienced poly people may ask? Well, as J and B live so much closer and are therefore able to spend more time together in person than I can with either of them, I fear they would grow exponentially closer if they could also be intimate, causing me to fall further down the food chain in importance. I fear I'd lose the special bond I have with both of them, as I simply cannot spend much time with either of my lovers in real life at this present time.
 
FWIW I think that is the take home nugget.
And people do stuff from a "joyous yes" place because they want the thing themselves. Not just go along with stuff trying to make other people happy. Stop being people pleasers.
Could call it a learning experience.

I agree completely. We have all definitely learnt from it. Unfortunately, it took many many angst-filled months, a diagnosis of depression and boundary-breaking threesome to understand that agreeing to something that goes against one's nature to please a lover will NEVER work. Hence hard limits and boundaries recently enforced.

And maybe step further back to examine motives. Is she dating you for you? Or just in hopes to secure access to him? When he is still meh about her?

This was the exact source of my long-standing mistrust of B's motives, as I believe I've explained elsewhere in one of the threads.

She claims it was never so, but contradicted herself and her own stated wants and needs at so many points, it almost felt I was being gaslighted (an exaggeration, but you get the point I hope.)

I now believe she was simply love-starved for so long and SO hurt by J's earlier actions, she felt unattractive, unloved and excluded, and was trying redress the balance by forcing our triad into a shape that felt "fair" to her. I believe B now recognises her own motivations and regrets the way she went about things. To clarify, we have recently reverted to our V model, with all intimacy between B and J off the table for the foreseeable future.

It's only been in the last couple of weeks we've really reached a resolution about all this that we are ALL on board with, but I am still a little nervous about their upcoming trip away, because the thing hasn't been tested yet. I guess my depression and anxiety (diagnosed) has exacerbated feelings of insecurity brought on by all this, although I recognise my mental health issues are nobody's "fault" and that I still have a lot of individual work to do.
 
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It's only been in the last couple of weeks we've really reached a resolution about all this that we are ALL on board with, but I am still a little nervous about their upcoming trip away, because the thing hasn't been tested yet.

Then you risk it in order to test it.

  • They follow through on their current agreements and you come to find that you can trust them at their Word. So you continue to date them.
  • Or you find they break agreements. And you find that you cannot trust them. So you do not continue to date them.

I get that the emotions are hard to FEEL. But the actions seem straightforward.

Your boundaries are for YOU to respect. Not them. You make personal boundaries for what you will and will not put up with to protect you from too many shenanigans. If your personal boundary is

"I cannot be in a V with people who don't keep their Word"​

and you find they don't keep their Word? The natural consequence is that you choose to bow out. With regrets maybe, but you bow out all the same in order to respect your personal boundary.

They can keep on playing fast and loose with their Word and doing more shenanigans if they want over there away from you. But you at least out of the line of fire. You made yourself "un-dingable."

I don't like it when people say one thing and do another. If they lack integrity and their words and actions don't match? Believe the actions. Because talk is cheap without supporting actions.

I guess I don't know why you would choose to date his ex in the first place -- who was love sick for him thinking what they had was more than it was. What makes this kind of person a healthy dating partner for you when she sits around telling herself stories? :confused:

When you add this extra data to it?

I now believe she was simply love-starved for so long and SO hurt by J's earlier actions, she felt unattractive, unloved and excluded, and was trying redress the balance by forcing our triad into a shape that felt "fair" to her.

It sounds like she tells herself stories and is not honest with herself. AND she's desperate. Being "desperate" like that is not attractive or healthy to me. :(

In future that may be another personal boundary for you:

"I don't take up with or continue with love starved people who have mental health things to address before offering themselves as dating partners. I wait for them to become healthier first."​

I guess my depression and anxiety (diagnosed) has exacerbated feelings of insecurity brought on by all this, although I recognise my mental health issues are nobody's "fault" and that I still have a lot of individual work to do.

I would spend your energy here. If your mental health conditions are making it so you cannot make sound decisions about the quality of partners you pick to date... maybe you step back from dating entirely for a while to get all that sorted?

Neither one of them sounds like healthy people. He does lies of omission, and doesn't tell you he's also dating her. (Back at the beginning.)

And then she's not honest with herself and desperate.

How's either one good company for you to keep so YOUR mental health remains stable and on firm footing? :confused:

I hope things get better for you. I encourage some soul searching though about (what is actually healthy for you) and not only (what keeps this V going.)

If you cannot work things out with these people so you can be mentally healthy participating here? You may have to value your health and well being above being here with them.

Galagirl
 
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J's growing unavailability has worn me down emotionally to a point where, last November, I had a breakdown and had to stop working. (I was also suffering some concurrent health issues which are on their way to being resolved now.)

No. Own your issues. Whatever J was doing, if you had a breakdown bad enough to require a leave of absence from work, then there's a lot more going on with you than an unavailable boyfriend.

It sounds like you made yourself dependent on him for emotional fulfillment. Your need for affection and intimacy is your own responsibility, not J's. If he is unable to meet your needs for whatever reason, you don't get to blame your breakdown on him. You have the responsibility to meet your own needs, or to find people who who are willing and able to meet them. Your needs are not J's responsibility.

In relationships, we're allowed to make requests. e.g. your request that J express his affection for you more frequently (more "I love yous"). But just because you made a request, doesn't create an obligation for J to fulfill it. If he's unwilling or unable to fulfill your request for more I love yous, then you have to respect his autonomy and accept that.

If J is unable or unwilling to provide you with more time and attention, then you have choices: (1) learn to be happy with the time and attention is willing and able to share with you, or (2) get your needs met by someone else who's willing and able (with or without breaking up with J).

The next day J and B both felt terrible when they realised how I really felt, and eventually after many discussions and arguments once I returned home, we've decided NOT to force this to be a triad in that sense, but instead to remain a V.

There's no rule that says three who are romantically involved with one another have to be in "one big happy family." There's nothing wrong with three pair-wise independent relationships that happen to be with the same three people. If J and B want to date, you don't actually get a vote. You don't own them, and they were in a relationship (of sorts) before you showed up. If they want to date, they can date. Doesn't mean you have to ever go on a date with both of them at the same time, or even hang out together for a movie. If you want to, that's great. But don't feel like their relationship should force you into any behaviours you're not comfortable with.
 
Luna, putting aside B's possible ulterior motives and your need to control their relationship (I'm a practicing mono by the way, but even I'm not sure why you are playing with fire about this), would you be okay with either J or B having OTHER partners aside from yourself?

This whole situation just reads as unfair to me, somehow. In your intro thread, you had described J and B engaging in behavior you didn't like on their previous trips. So, it seems you are waiting for them to do it AGAIN. What will you do if they step over the line on this upcoming trip?

Why did it seem like a good idea to get involved with B in the first place, knowing she still felt the way she did about J and you weren't having it?

At some point, a relationship(s) just becomes more about drama than joy. If the drama is what draws you to this situation, then that is completely up to you. Just don't mistake drama and agonizing intensity for a healthy, loving relationship.
 
Then you risk it in order to test it.

Your boundaries are for YOU to respect. Not them.
If your personal boundary is

"I cannot be in a V with people who don't keep their Word"​

and you find they don't keep their Word? The natural consequence is that you choose to bow out. With regrets maybe, but you bow out all the same in order to respect your personal boundary.

I don't like it when people say one thing and do another. If they lack integrity and their words and actions don't match? Believe the actions. Because talk is cheap without supporting actions.

I understand what you're saying and I agree with you. The month I recently spent together with each of my lovers person, including the time spent as a group, was a litmus test of sorts.

We have since renegotiated the terms of our V and I am satisfied they each will respect those that are now in place. If not, as you say, I have to make that choice of whether or not to bow out of the relationship for good.

I guess I don't know why you would choose to date his ex in the first place -- who was love sick for him thinking what they had was more than it was. What makes this kind of person a healthy dating partner for you when she sits around telling herself stories? :confused:


AND she's desperate. Being "desperate" like that is not attractive or healthy to me. :(

To answer the first part of the above, I guess because other than this one issue, B is an amazing woman: highly intelligent, artistic, funny and fun. Our world views align very closely and I've never had more interests in common with anyone apart my sister (we have a very sisterly relationship in some ways). We have great sex AND she is very emotionally supportive in general - and surprisingly supportive of my relationship with J.

She is actually a very proud person and had a LOT of work of her own to do before she could admit the reasons she clung onto this "idealised" albeit unrealistic-under-the-circumstances vision of what our poly family could be. However, as of the past couple of weeks I finally believe she has done that work and is in a more secure place herself, therefore can be trusted.


I would spend your energy here. If your mental health conditions are making it so you cannot make sound decisions about the quality of partners you pick to date... maybe you step back from dating entirely for a while to get all that sorted?

Neither one of them sounds like healthy people. He does lies of omission, and doesn't tell you he's also dating her. (Back at the beginning.)

And then she's not honest with herself and desperate.

How's either one good company for you to keep so YOUR mental health remains stable and on firm footing? :confused:
Galagirl

I've had lifelong issues with anxiety and occasional flare-ups of depression, but my mental health had been more or less stable UNTIL I unexpectedly found myself in this situation - polyamory - which has been stressful as I have always identified as mono.

The internal conflict has affected me quite negatively and I am still adjusting to, and trying to accept, that I am responsible for the nature of my own current situation.

Moreover, being lied to or cheated on are NOT things I have ever been able to forgive or forget easily. In fact, in the past I've really been quite intractable on these issues and have left relationships the minute a serious breach occurred.

This time, I am trying to be more accepting and tolerant of other people's foibles, issues, lapses...because I acknowledge that everybody is fallible, including myself. However, I recognise there are limits to tolerance am not unaware of when I'm "being taken for a ride". This - me asserting my rights and putting in place boundaries and insisting my questions be met with honesty and detailed explanations - have been both the CAUSE of multiple arguments within my current relationship paradigm, and also the CURE for hashing out agreement on the aforementioned issues of shared intimacy among others, as of recent days.
 
No. Own your issues. Whatever J was doing, if you had a breakdown bad enough to require a leave of absence from work, then there's a lot more going on with you than an unavailable boyfriend.

Yes, there is, or was. As I stated, I have been having some health issues and recently (two weeks ago) underwent surgery.

It sounds like you made yourself dependent on him for emotional fulfillment. Your need for affection and intimacy is your own responsibility, not J's.

In relationships, we're allowed to make requests. e.g. your request that J express his affection for you more frequently (more "I love yous"). But just because you made a request, doesn't create an obligation for J to fulfill it.

I understand the logic and ethics of the point you make, and am working on taking responsibility for my own decisions and happiness; something I've never had trouble doing in the past FWIW.

However, I must add here that J. behaved in certain ways and made unprompted promises that he lived up to for long enough that I came to expect that same level of effort and reciprocation to continue. Then without warning, and for no apparent reason, he changed.

What happens when you FEEL a partner is making less effort to spend time or engage in behaviours and activities that were once mutually enjoyed, yet they DENY having changed and/or consistently promise to do better but do not or cannot keep that promise? Yet they still tell you they love you AND mean it?

I know J still truly loves me, and I him, but he has an attention deficit and some issues with substance use, and once NRE wore off for him, he became far less interactive.


If J is unable or unwilling to provide you with more time and attention, then you have choices: (1) learn to be happy with the time and attention is willing and able to share with you, or (2) get your needs met by someone else who's willing and able (with or without breaking up with J).

And option 2 is exactly what I did, albeit reluctantly.

A few months after he became more distant, I turned to B for advice and consolation and that led to a relationship between she and I. Totally unexpectedly, as neither of us had ever had a same-sex relationship before. It is a very loving, interactive and fulfilling relationship, but as described, is complicated by the fact that B and J used to be intimately involved.


If J and B want to date, you don't actually get a vote. You don't own them, and they were in a relationship (of sorts) before you showed up. If they want to date, they can date.

But don't feel that their relationship should force you into any behaviours you're not comfortable with.

They don't wish to date each other as a couple/pair. Before we agreed to try a threesome/triad, J stated that he was only interested in engaging with B in an intimate way if it was as part of occasional group sex/play, and specifically if *I* wanted that to occur.

I believe B would be (or would have been, until very recently) more open to renewing intimate involvement with J in a number of flexible ways, but not necessarily as part of a self contained dating/dyad. She often reassured me that she had no desire to come between J and I, and didn't want him for herself.

Yet until the recent fall-out, post-threesome, she had made it clear that being able to include him in intimate touch/play (from hugging and kissing, up to and possibly including penetrative sex) would be her ideal scenario.

I recognise that B had every right to express her desires and state her ideal relationship and that I did not have to agree to go along and try it on for size if I felt as uncomfortable as I did. However, I think guilt over the end of their relationship caused me to feel I "owed" it to her to try. We have ALL learnt from this experience and are trying to move on, re-establish trust and delineate boundaries and ground rules we can all live with.
 
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Luna, putting aside B's possible ulterior motives and your need to control their relationship (I'm a practicing mono by the way, but even I'm not sure why you are playing with fire about this), would you be okay with either J or B having OTHER partners aside from yourself?

This whole situation just reads as unfair to me, somehow.

That's an interesting multi-layered question. The answer to the first part is simple: none of us are interested in dating outside the group, probably ever.

Probably because none of us, with the possible exception of B, truly identifies as poly. We simply found ourselves in this situation where we each feel either romantic love and/or a deeper-than-friendship connection with the other two, and the bond as a unit would be more likely to devolve into a monogamous situation with one or the other, than expand to include more lovers.

Having said that, I would feel less okay about J taking another lover, than I would about B being with someone else, for a number of reasons:

- J and I started out as the primary relationship and are engaged. He has a lower libido than me and states that he is not interested in anyone else as romantic or sex partner.

- There is a more or less unspoken OPP within our triad, and J is hetero, so that would preclude any other male becoming involved in our future domestic situation (we're currently long distance). J was fine with my involvement with B as she is not only a woman, but also his best friend and a former lover, so he feels really comfortable being around her.

- B is still legally married and living with her husband with whom she hasn't had a sexual relationship for many many years (his choice). If I were to be okay with either of my lovers taking another lover, it'd be B for these reasons, however the guy would almost certainly be a FWB and not be part of our proposed domestic set-up.

In your intro thread, you had described J and B engaging in behavior you didn't like on their previous trips. So, it seems you are waiting for them to do it AGAIN. What will you do if they step over the line on this upcoming trip?

Yes, to some extent that is the fear, especially after witnessing them engage in intimate acts in person, and noting their level of comfortability. I really do not believe they will overstep this time, but I am wary due to past breaches.

What I would DO about that would depend on the magnitude and nature of any breach, should it occur, so I can't answer that here, sorry.

Why did it seem like a good idea to get involved with B in the first place, knowing she still felt the way she did about J and you weren't having it?

At some point, a relationship(s) just becomes more about drama than joy. If the drama is what draws you to this situation, then that is completely up to you. Just don't mistake drama and agonizing intensity for a healthy, loving relationship.

I know exactly what you mean, and I have to chuckle a little because a.) I DIDN'T think it was a good idea at all. To use a tired cliché "it just happened". And b.) If you knew real-life me, you'd know that I'm am normally about as laid-back and anti-drama oriented as anyone can get.

In over twenty years of marriage, my husband and I barely ever said a cross word, had regular good sex and never displayed any jealousy toward the other one, yet we grew apart and eventually separated.

That's why this entire situation feels so foreign to me and I've been having a difficult time even accepting that I am now in a fully-fledged poly relationship. In some ways it feels like it's happening to someone else, and I am beginning to question my sanity. Is this normal for first-time polyamorists?
 
What happens when you FEEL a partner is making less effort to spend time or engage in behaviours and activities that were once mutually enjoyed, yet they DENY having changed and/or consistently promise to do better but do not or cannot keep that promise? Yet they still tell you they love you AND mean it?

When talk and action do not match? You could believe actions.

They might love you but they don't put in enough action for you to feel happy participating here.

I know J still truly loves me, and I him, but he has an attention deficit and some issues with substance use, and once NRE wore off for him, he became far less interactive.

Love alone is not enough to sustain a relationship. I'd wait to sort all this out before getting married. Don't add more things to an already stressy thing.

I've had lifelong issues with anxiety and occasional flare-ups of depression, but my mental health had been more or less stable UNTIL I unexpectedly found myself in this situation - polyamory - which has been stressful as I have always identified as mono.

And...

That's why this entire situation feels so foreign to me and I've been having a difficult time even accepting that I am now in a fully-fledged poly relationship. In some ways it feels like it's happening to someone else, and I am beginning to question my sanity. Is this normal for first-time polyamorists?

If you identify as mono, why try to do poly?:confused: If you accidentally fell into something you don't like, you can get yourself out. Be more firm of purpose.

It sounds like a mess of stress you do not want.

It's not supposed to be THIS hard. You having mental health flare ups when you were previously ok and having all this stress? You don't have to be raked over the coals just to do poly. Sometimes the price of admission is ok, and sometimes the price of admission is too high. You'll have to figure out if this level of stress is worth it. Don't gamble with your health.

The internal conflict has affected me quite negatively and I am still adjusting to, and trying to accept, that I am responsible for the nature of my own current situation.

Yup. We are all responsible for our choices and what we get ourselves into.

If you got yourself into something that feels yucky, you can choose to get out.

Moreover, being lied to or cheated on are NOT things I have ever been able to forgive or forget easily. In fact, in the past I've really been quite intractable on these issues and have left relationships the minute a serious breach occurred.

Sounds like strong personal boundaries to me. You could follow that.

This time, I am trying to be more accepting and tolerant of other people's foibles, issues, lapses...because I acknowledge that everybody is fallible, including myself.

It is possible to accept people make mistakes and forgive them without choosing to continue to date them.

It is also possible to put a number on it. Say 3 strikes. But after that if the same issue keeps coming up you bow out. Because it's not going to be 300, 3000, 3 million second chances, right? I suggest you pick a number and if it hits that number you walk away even with regrets.

You cannot let your soft feelings for people cause you to throw yourself under the bus. There is a point where you say "I love you, but not even for you will I continue in something that hurts me."

However, I recognise there are limits to tolerance am not unaware of when I'm "being taken for a ride".

Glad you see that.

This - me asserting my rights and putting in place boundaries and insisting my questions be met with honesty and detailed explanations - have been both the CAUSE of multiple arguments within my current relationship paradigm, and also the CURE for hashing out agreement on the aforementioned issues of shared intimacy among others, as of recent days.

Keep sorting it out then.

Ultimately they each meet your personal standards for communication in healthy relationships and things get better. Or they don't meet your personal standards, so you move on.

Galagirl
 
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You're in a difficult situation, lunabunny, with too many pieces being juggled, by which I mean there are many yellow flags of instability. Doesn't mean it can't be done, but it's going to be tough. To my mind, the following are all examples of things that can be unstable.

  1. In your V/Triad, B and J both seem more okay with forming a relationship with each other though B doesn't really want it. I get the sense he doesn't mind if it happens naturally, but you have put the veto on it and he feels his first responsibility is to you. This is potentially unstable because people don't like being told what to do by others.
  2. The relationship between B and J began (or was ongoing) without your knowledge. J essentially was in a relationship with B before beginning his relationship with you but did not disclose this to you until you found out yourself. You have pointed out that there may be residual trust issues from the fallout of this, and I feel the lack of trust can lead to instability. I think you identified lack of trust as why this upcoming camping trip makes you so concerned.
  3. J's affections for you terminated his sexual relationship with B. B still wants romance with J. This is potentially unstable because as the NRE that J has for you wears off, she may want B stronger than she wants you, which can lead to a confusing amount of jealousy. You see some of this already in the way she pushed for a sexual triad.
  4. Long distance is always difficult, with my heartfelt sympathies for this additional challenge, LunaBunny.
  5. B has a non sexual relationship with her husband - not impossible to do poly, but depending on her husband's point of view, this could go south quite fast, especially if she gets close to a male. Which may sound sexist or one penis policy of me, but I really don't know her husband so can't say for sure.

Not meaning to throw a wet towel on things, LunaBunny. Just saying it looks really tough. I also think you're already aware of all of this, but sometimes, people use the forums as a sounding board for their thoughts and ideas. I hope I have been a decent sounding board.

Best wishes,
Shaya.
 
LunaBunny, I must say that you have fielded a great number of questions with grace and seemed to have received these questions in the spirit they were intended without getting defensive.

I think all there is to do now is wait and see what happens. You have read and digested all our concerns. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

Good luck!
 
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Love alone is not enough to sustain a relationship. I'd wait to sort all this out before getting married.

"Sometimes love isn't enough" is a truth I've said often enough to friends in the past, but it's hard to hear and really internalise this when it applies to oneself. Sigh.

Having said that, yes, we are not rushing into marriage. I waited almost two years before we even met in person! But that was due to distance, finances, and setting a time-frame in which J had to prove he'd gotten his addiction issues under control.


If you identify as mono, why try to do poly?:confused: If you accidentally fell into something you don't like, you can get yourself out.

It's not supposed to be THIS hard. (...) Sometimes the price of admission is ok, and sometimes the price of admission is too high. You'll have to figure out if this level of stress is worth it. Don't gamble with your health.

Exactly. To a great degree this situation evolved very naturally. I was certainly not intending to be polyamorous. In fact, for a long while the very idea of non-monogamy seemed abhorrent to me. (For ME, you understand. I am open-minded enough to understand the concept as it applies to people wired this way.)

Again, you're right, it's NOT supposed to be this hard. In fact, B said much the same thing to me when she finally recognised just how badly I've been struggling to "be all things to all people", including trying to please her by agreeing to engage in group physical intimacy (something that almost broke me).


It is also possible to put a number on it. Say 3 strikes. But after that if the same issue keeps coming up you bow out. Because it's not going to be 300, 3000, 3 million second chances, right? I suggest you pick a number and if it hits that number you walk away even with regrets.

This is very good, practical advice, thank you. To some extent I've been operating in this vein already, especially in regards to J's drug use.

Seems I need to extend this "three strikes and you're out" limit to the issue of trust. In fact, from the very start, when J was still my only partner, honesty/transparency was pretty much the only "rule" I thought to verbalise.

J essentially was in a relationship with B before beginning his relationship with you but did not disclose this to you until you found out yourself. You have pointed out that there may be residual trust issues from the fallout of this, and I feel the lack of trust can lead to instability. I think you identified lack of trust as why this upcoming camping trip makes you so concerned.

Exactly, Shaya - that is where the trust issues began, and although they went underground for a long while, B's more recent "pushing" to renew the intimate side of their relationship (more or less "through" the context of B's and my relationship) brought up all kinds of suspicions for me regarding her motivations for getting into a relationship with me in the first place.

Here, I must clarify a few things:
- J has never been invested or particularly interested in renewing intimacy with B alone, outside of a stated desire by ME that such a thing transpire between the three of us.
- J has always offered me veto power of his own accord in regards to most aspects of our relationship.
- The potential for renewed/regular intimacy between J and B has been more or less resolved in recent weeks, by me stating that I would be compelled to withdraw from the relationship if that was made a mandatory condition of participation.

B has a non sexual relationship with her husband - not impossible to do poly, but depending on her husband's point of view, this could go south quite fast, especially if she gets close to a male. Which may sound sexist or one penis policy of me, but I really don't know her husband so can't say for sure.

B and her husband are not involved emotionally in any way, so he doesn't really have much say-so. They only live together for financial reasons and because they assist in the care of a grandchild.

Not meaning to throw a wet towel on things, LunaBunny. Just saying it looks really tough. I also think you're already aware of all of this, but sometimes, people use the forums as a sounding board for their thoughts and ideas. I hope I have been a decent sounding board.
Best wishes,
Shaya.

Not being "out" as poly to family or friends has meant it's been impossible to run these issues past them as I normally would when in a personal quandary.

Thus this forum - as well as respondents such as yourself, Shaya - have been invaluable when it comes to providing alternate perspectives on all my little conundrums within the greater conundrum. Thank you. :)

LunaBunny, I must say that you have fielded a great number of questions with grace and seemed to have received these questions in the spirit they were intended without getting defensive.

I think all there is to do now is wait and see what happens. You have read and digested all our concerns. They proof is in the pudding, as they say.

Good luck!

Thank you very much also, powerpuffgrl.

It is heartening to know this board is full of active, solutions-oriented participants. You have all helped me effectively distil my concerns and identify potential answers, as unpalatable as my heart finds some of them right now.
 
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