Lopsided relationship

[NicoleSpiral]

Hi everyone, I'm new here

I have no experience with polyamory but I've been thinking about it lately. I'm unsure if it's for me or if I'm looking into it for the wrong reasons. I'd appreciate other perspectives. I'll try to keep my story short.

I'm in love with my best friend. We have a deep connection and have helped each other through huge obstacles in life. He's the most important person in my life right now. We used to be cuddle buddies and we also had a physical relationship before he ended it because he started seeing someone else. We were always very honest about our feelings with each other and we talked about the fact that while he loves me, he doesn't have romantic feelings for me. I do. Still when we were "together" we had fun and loved being able to talk about deep and personal things that we didn't share with other people. I miss it even though we still spend a lot of time together. He is also no longer with his ex. The pull I feel toward him is so strong I often think "why can't we just go back to the way things were." We don't have to be exclusive. Neither of us would be getting our romantic needs met from the relationship so maybe we could take our relationship up a notch but continue to date others. Is this a horrible idea? I was devastated when he ended things before because it meant that I couldn't be close to him anymore. I know he had considered polyamory before. He doesn't experience romantic attraction very often and thought that maybe being with multiple people who don't expect romance back would be better for him.

Has anyone been in a relationship where you loved someone in a way that they couldn't love you back but you had those needs met by seeing someone else that did at the same time? Or is it unhealthy to have a lopsided relationship like this? We have no problem with communication and I will talk to him about these thoughts I've been having but I just wanted to get perspectives from the poly community before doing so. Thanks!

 

[opalescent]

I think that regardless of if poly would work for you or not, you will not get what you deserve out of this relationship. You are in love with him but he is not in love with you. You have a deep, intimate relationship but not a romantic one. You would basically never get what you want from him because he does not have that to offer to you. So I would be really hesitant to say 'go for it' because I just see a situation where you will always want more than he can give. And that's a recipe for pain. Now, perhaps, that pain would be worth it. Maybe you could have a physical relationship and an intimate one without longing for that last sector of romantic connection. I know I could not do this without really damaging myself. Perhaps you can. But if you are like me and can't go into this without longing, I gently suggest remaining deep, intimate friends with this man and seek romantic connections elsewhere.

 

[vinsanity0]

Many years ago I was the guy in your scenario. I loved my friend as a friend. The sex was great as well. I didn't feel the same romantically as she did. This was all way before I knew that poly could be a thing. We always remained friends even when one of us dated someone else. If we were both single we had benefits. I actually met my first wife through her. She was the maid of honor at our wedding.

Looking back, I wish we had known about poly. I think it would have worked out great, though my first wife probably wouldn't have gone along with it.

 

[JaneQSmythe]

From the other side...

One of my "rules" for myself back in the day when I was actively avoiding relationships and only interested in FB/FWB/NSA sex was that I would not have sex with someone if I thought they might be wanting more than that (I also had a "rule" about sleeping with someone more than three times for that same reason).

It seemed unfair to me to offer "nibbles" if they wanted a full bite! - it seemed like a set-up for heartbreak and drama. My advise would be to keep things at the platonic level so you can have the "freedom" to find someone who wants the same things as you do in a relationship.

 

[IndieSolo]

Don't romanticize the intimacy you had with him - romance and intimacy are two different things!

 

[GalaGirl]

I am sorry you struggle.

Has anyone been in a relationship where you loved someone in a way that they couldn't love you back but you had those needs met by seeing someone else that did at the same time? Or is it unhealthy to have a lopsided relationship like this?

I wonder if maybe you already know that a lopsided thing like that is unhealthy and you are maybe hoping to be convinced otherwise?

He's the most important person in my life right now.

YOU could be the most important person in your life.

I am going to guess. I might guess wrong. You correct me, ok?

Because to me? That post sounds like your ex broke up with you, and you hung around the edges of his orbit as his "friend" but really pining away and not moving on.

To me the post reads like you see his recent break up as an opportunity to latch on to the ex lover now that he's single again. The post reads like you so badly want to be his lover again you want to offer yourself as a "FWB in a poly model" so you can get to be his lover, and thus prevent him from breaking up with you again. Like "See! You can still be dating other people! AND you can still keep me!"

Even though you know already ahead of time that he doesn't have romantic interest in you.

Is that the case?

If so? No. I honestly don't think that is healthy. I think firmer boundaries, not more fuzzy ones would be better for you. I think it would be healthier to process the previous break up, maybe not try to be such tight friends while doing that. Give it some time and space apart first so you could accept it better and really move on. Not be making him the center of your world and still trying to "square peg round hole" with this person. Or hanging around in his orbit on the edges pining away.

If you are his friend, be his friend. Don't be saddling him with this stuff when he just broke up with someone. How's that kind?

If he's that close of a friend, he's going to see through all that if you offer FWB.

If he takes advantage knowing you have romantic feelings, he's not really much of a friend.

If you want to date him properly, get healthier first, then ask him out properly.

Not this wonky sounding offer of "come make do with me." It's not self-respecting behavior and slightly desperate sounding. It's not attractive. Don't subsume yourself to a relationship. That's not healthy.

I wish I could think of a nicer way to say that.

Galagirl

 

[vinsanity0]

While I agree that it can be unhealthy, I don't agree that it is by definition. Besides my previous example, there is Elle. I love her dearly, but there is no way she is willing to give me a committed romantic relationship because of several reasons. Even though that is what I would like, I am happy with the friendship we have. I would never want her out if my life.

 

[GalaGirl]

Even though that is what I would like, I am happy with the friendship we have.

That's the thing. OP does not sound happy. OP wants more than friends at this point in time. And that unfullfilled want seems to be causing her pain. Yet she seems unwilling to deal with it head on.

I think she could become more firm of purpose.

• She wants romance and him as a BF? Go for that then, not this FWB offer thing. Ask him out properly. Maybe he's changed his mind.
• She wants to let this lingering crush thing go? Then take a proper time out to let it go. Focus on her self care rather than making him her focus. Then could reengage later on as friends without that lingering want causing continuing pain.

She's already been doing "neither here nor there" for a while -- and it's led to not fun feelings.

Going for more fuzzy confusion of feelings as FWB? Neither here as a platonic friend nor there as a proper GF?

I don't think that's a good idea. Don't ADD to the load. Take away from the load.

NicoleSpiral -- I hope you are able to discern what it is you want most. I just don't think this situation is a fence sitter.

GL!
Galagirl

 

[Magdlyn]

I have such a hard time understanding FWB statuses.

If you have a deep intimate connection, and great sex, what about that is NOT romantic? What is the missing factor?

I don't have any FWBs, only lovers. Even if I am not in love with them, and vice versa, I have to have fond feelings for someone or I will not desire them. Even if it's only a first or second date, there has to be that spark, that chemistry, or there won't be a second date.

Maybe I will never understand it. Maybe it's a generational thing, an evolution of the sexual revolution that started in the late 60s.

What would be the factor to make it "romantic," beside deep emotional caring and sharing, plus great sex? To me, those 2 factors make for romance by default.

Gifts? Actual dates, not just hanging out talking and fucking? Or more relationship escalator things like weekends away, meeting each others' families?

Other people here seem to automatically know what you're talking about, but I am afraid I don't.

 

[Velope]

I'm glad to have come across this thread as I can relate to it so strongly.

NicoleSpiral, what you are contemplating was my reality for the last several months, with some differences here and there, of course. Being very open to letting a relationship just be whatever it naturally is inclined to be, myself and my friend engaged in something deeper than FWB, but not a official boyfriend/girlfriend relationship either. We too started out as reasonably close friends and cuddle buddies. It was a glorious couple of months, we had challenges of course, but we worked together very well. So many times I felt like it was such a shame he was not romantically interested in me because we were just so darn functional, of course many of my friends had doubts but plenty of them were just in awe. We weren't even in a committed relationship but ours seemed so much more stable than some of their's.

Of course, it was that way... until it wasn't. I don't know how I had expected things would go down when he finally found someone? He's mono for the most part, so I knew he'd meet someone and we'd have to give up that level of intimacy between us. However, I suppose I felt we were such good friends and I trusted him so much, that I felt he would be considerate of my feelings. It's a blow to have any relationship downgraded, whether friendship, romantic, sexual etc.

However instead what happened was one day everything was as it had been and then the next he met someone and had planned a date within the next few days and how I was told was basically "I met this girl I think I might really like" and that was it. I gave it ten minutes of following conversation before I had to ask: "So what does this mean for us?" And it was an abrupt end to everything between us that I had become used to.

When I became upset, wishing to have had some warning, or a fazing out period or something he just seemed to not understand. Despite everything we'd had together, he had held fast that it was always the deal that he could change everything at a moment's notice if he met someone. He claimed it was just sex that was going and that everything else would remain the same, how often we talked, how often we saw each other, other platonic affection.

But for me it wasn't a simple matter of brushing away the sexuality, it was like ripping a plant out of the ground and bringing up a big chunk of dirt with it. My trust was shattered, he told me also on a particularly bad night, the worst timing. I was having a crisis about well... everything, adult things. Money, job prospects, future, housing, personal self worth. Talk about the worse timing ever. He maintained was just trying to be honest and that it couldn't wait because he had the date in two days.

I felt betrayed more by how he went about it than the actual act but now after we have had so many difficulties. While I don't regret the months we had, I fear very much for our friendship. To be honest there's not a lot left of it, all the important foundations aside from interest aka trust, comfort, care & security were all thrown into question. I feel a bit like I don't even know this person anymore.

I feel very much like Magdlyn described, and so maybe it's not so much a generational thing haha (I'm 23) but for me it seemed very much like despite all that was said, the relationship was romantic. It had all the symptoms and he even said at one point that he would behave no differently in affection, time spent together/talking etc etc towards someone he WAS romantically attracted to. So, it's still difficult for me to understand how it was NOT romantic for him, aside from his saying so. I have no understanding of what was missing? Close affectionate bond/relationship + sexual attraction = ...romantic attraction? No somehow?

Ultimately, I would advise you not to pursue this with your best friend, even if like me you feel so compelled to. I know that, as I did, you might feel convinced that the risks are worth it but REALLY consider. is loosing your friendship with this man worth it? You already know how it feels in the aftermath and it'll only be worst the second time around. </3

 

[NicoleSpiral]

I am sorry you struggle.



I wonder if maybe you already know that a lopsided thing like that is unhealthy and you are maybe hoping to be convinced otherwise?



YOU could be the most important person in your life.

I am going to guess. I might guess wrong. You correct me, ok?

Because to me? That post sounds like your ex broke up with you, and you hung around the edges of his orbit as his "friend" but really pining away and not moving on.

To me the post reads like you see his recent break up as an opportunity to latch on to the ex lover now that he's single again. The post reads like you so badly want to be his lover again you want to offer yourself as a "FWB in a poly model" so you can get to be his lover, and thus prevent him from breaking up with you again. Like "See! You can still be dating other people! AND you can still keep me!"

Even though you know already ahead of time that he doesn't have romantic interest in you.

Is that the case?

If so? No. I honestly don't think that is healthy. I think firmer boundaries, not more fuzzy ones would be better for you. I think it would be healthier to process the previous break up, maybe not try to be such tight friends while doing that. Give it some time and space apart first so you could accept it better and really move on. Not be making him the center of your world and still trying to "square peg round hole" with this person. Or hanging around in his orbit on the edges pining away.

If you are his friend, be his friend. Don't be saddling him with this stuff when he just broke up with someone. How's that kind?

If he's that close of a friend, he's going to see through all that if you offer FWB.

If he takes advantage knowing you have romantic feelings, he's not really much of a friend.

If you want to date him properly, get healthier first, then ask him out properly.

Not this wonky sounding offer of "come make do with me." It's not self-respecting behavior and slightly desperate sounding. It's not attractive. Don't subsume yourself to a relationship. That's not healthy.

I wish I could think of a nicer way to say that.

Galagirl

Thank you for this. These are all the doubts that have been floating around in my head but I haven't been listening to. Sexual attraction is so rare for me (I'm demisexual) so now that I finally experienced it I'm having a hard time letting go. Also he was super slow and gentle with me in that department and always wanted to make sure I was having a good time which is sadly the first time I experienced that. Along with the fact that I felt so important and needed because I helped him get through the hardest time in his life.

His ex broke up with him a while ago and he's processed and moved on and has started the dating process which he is frustrated with. He's somewhat aromantic or grey-romantic so it's difficult for him as well. I'm frustrated with dating too and want a cuddle buddy that I'm comfortable with ...he's the only one I felt comfortable doing that with so that's when I thought I'd ask him to be cuddle buddies again. But then I thought it might be a slippery slope. Then I started convincing myself that i would be fine with that.

I think he would say no. He already feels guilty about the fact that I'm in love with him and he is not in love with me. And when we spend time together he tries to make sure that there isn't much physical contact besides a hug goodbye. It's unfair of me to ask him to hurt me. It's insulting to both of us. That's not good for either of us and our view of ourselves.

I just have to accept that our friendship will never be as intimate as it used to be and I can't talk to him about everything anymore. I need a new best friend. Which sucks.

 

[NicoleSpiral]

I'm glad to have come across this thread as I can relate to it so strongly.

NicoleSpiral, what you are contemplating was my reality for the last several months, with some differences here and there, of course. Being very open to letting a relationship just be whatever it naturally is inclined to be, myself and my friend engaged in something deeper than FWB, but not a official boyfriend/girlfriend relationship either. We too started out as reasonably close friends and cuddle buddies. It was a glorious couple of months, we had challenges of course, but we worked together very well. So many times I felt like it was such a shame he was not romantically interested in me because we were just so darn functional, of course many of my friends had doubts but plenty of them were just in awe. We weren't even in a committed relationship but ours seemed so much more stable than some of their's.

Of course, it was that way... until it wasn't. I don't know how I had expected things would go down when he finally found someone? He's mono for the most part, so I knew he'd meet someone and we'd have to give up that level of intimacy between us. However, I suppose I felt we were such good friends and I trusted him so much, that I felt he would be considerate of my feelings. It's a blow to have any relationship downgraded, whether friendship, romantic, sexual etc.

However instead what happened was one day everything was as it had been and then the next he met someone and had planned a date within the next few days and how I was told was basically "I met this girl I think I might really like" and that was it. I gave it ten minutes of following conversation before I had to ask: "So what does this mean for us?" And it was an abrupt end to everything between us that I had become used to.

When I became upset, wishing to have had some warning, or a fazing out period or something he just seemed to not understand. Despite everything we'd had together, he had held fast that it was always the deal that he could change everything at a moment's notice if he met someone. He claimed it was just sex that was going and that everything else would remain the same, how often we talked, how often we saw each other, other platonic affection.

But for me it wasn't a simple matter of brushing away the sexuality, it was like ripping a plant out of the ground and bringing up a big chunk of dirt with it. My trust was shattered, he told me also on a particularly bad night, the worst timing. I was having a crisis about well... everything, adult things. Money, job prospects, future, housing, personal self worth. Talk about the worse timing ever. He maintained was just trying to be honest and that it couldn't wait because he had the date in two days.

I felt betrayed more by how he went about it than the actual act but now after we have had so many difficulties. While I don't regret the months we had, I fear very much for our friendship. To be honest there's not a lot left of it, all the important foundations aside from interest aka trust, comfort, care & security were all thrown into question. I feel a bit like I don't even know this person anymore.

I feel very much like Magdlyn described, and so maybe it's not so much a generational thing haha (I'm 23) but for me it seemed very much like despite all that was said, the relationship was romantic. It had all the symptoms and he even said at one point that he would behave no differently in affection, time spent together/talking etc etc towards someone he WAS romantically attracted to. So, it's still difficult for me to understand how it was NOT romantic for him, aside from his saying so. I have no understanding of what was missing? Close affectionate bond/relationship + sexual attraction = ...romantic attraction? No somehow?

Ultimately, I would advise you not to pursue this with your best friend, even if like me you feel so compelled to. I know that, as I did, you might feel convinced that the risks are worth it but REALLY consider. is loosing your friendship with this man worth it? You already know how it feels in the aftermath and it'll only be worst the second time around. </3

Thank you for sharing your story. We definitely have a similar one. It's good to know that someone understands what it's like. I struggled so much with confusion around how he didn't love me back when it was obvious he made me a priority in his life, we spent all our time together, he told me things that he never told anyone, and he was sexually attracted to me.

But recently I was researching online about my sexuality (I'm demisexual meaning I'm not sexually attracted to people until I form an intense emotional bond with them and even then it might not happen)... I stumbled onto romantic orientations. There are people who identify as aromantic meaning they aren't romantically attracted to anyone and don't get romantic feelings and don't want romantic relationships. They can love, but not in that way. There are also grey-romantic people (like my friend) who experience romantic attraction very rarely, just like I experience sexual attraction very rarely. Maybe your friend falls into this category as well and just doesn't see why you don't see your relationship the way he did?

Thank you again for your story and advice, which I am taking. I hope you find someone who will love you back the way you need to be loved <3

 

[GalaGirl]

Thank you for this. These are all the doubts that have been floating around in my head but I haven't been listening to.

You are welcome. I am glad you took it like I meant it -- firm but kindly.

When you KNOW something deep down, be honest with yourself and don't try to talk yourself out of it. Take a firmer hand with yourself in that regard. Don't start being dishonest with yourself or ignoring yourself. THAT would be a really bad slippery slope.

I just have to accept that our friendship will never be as intimate as it used to be and I can't talk to him about everything anymore. I need a new best friend. Which sucks.

You want to dump him as your best friend? Why? Now you seem to go the other way. Don't make these things bigger than they have to be. Go easy on yourself in that regard.

You are not able to tell him...

"Hey friend, I need a time out for a little while. I hope you understand that. Don't think I am shutting you out. I value our friendship deeply and don't want to change that. I just need some head space for like X weeks. Your recent break up is triggering me and I realized that I haven't totally processed letting the crush thing go. So I need some time alone to do that and lay it to final rest. It is not something you did. It's something I didn't finish doing.

Let's pretend I went on a vacation for __ weeks. No calls or emails or texts. I'll see you when I get back ok? We can go to a nice lunch and catch up. What date works for you?"​

Best friends can go on vacation away from each other and it isn't the end of the world or the friendship. Set the lunch date and then take the time out you need. Don't make him your focus -- really be like you went away on vacation, and look forward to a nice lunch out when you are back. Lay the crush to rest and then carry on as best friends. Do some things you don't normally do -- take in a museum exhibit or see a play or take a hike or an art class. Shake up the routine.

When you return from the mind break? This time maintain firmer boundaries for your behavior -- hugs and kisses with friend reserved for goodbyes, birthdays, graduations, xmas, etc. Def no sex.

To me behavior happens, and then feeling ensue. If you don't like the romantic feelings inspired by certain behaviors with him because he doesn't feel that way about you and then you are stuck left pining? Don't be doing those behaviors. Then those feelings don't bubble up.

Galagirl

 

[Magdlyn]

I don't know what romance is for some people! I guess to me, romance is the trappings, flowers, incense, cuddling in front of a fire, candlelight dinners, long walks on the beach or under the moon, riding horses naked? lol

I tend to think men are less romantic than women. All that is "that mushy stuff" they would jeer at in movies when they were in 6th grade and girls had cooties.

But grey romantic? Aromantic? Does that mean you can't love deeply? It's always more surface, casual? But if you're sharing deep feelings, and supporting each other through hardships, doesn't that deepen a "romantic bond," unless you're a user, or self centered, like a narcissist or the way some people with Asperger's can be?

 

[Tinwen]

I have such a hard time understanding FWB statuses.

If you have a deep intimate connection, and great sex, what about that is NOT romantic? What is the missing factor?
...

What would be the factor to make it "romantic," beside deep emotional caring and sharing, plus great sex? To me, those 2 factors make for romance by default.
...
Other people here seem to automatically know what you're talking about, but I am afraid I don't.

I would like to ask much the same questions. Nycindie, what exactly did you mean by not confusing romance and intimacy?

I shall take a guess. Besides sex and emotional intimacy (being able to be open, trust, feeling well together...), romance is the attachment part, along with some ilusions. Romance is wanting to have the other in your life forever. Romance is, when you cannot get the other out of your mind no matter what you do. (Happened to me even after a short physical encounters with a man I didn't really know ... does that mean I cannot be physical without romance?) Romance is wanting to be together every free minute and making the other priority pretty much over everything like in the first weeks of a relationship.
Is that it?

 

[Magdlyn]

I would like to ask much the same questions. Nycindie, what exactly did you mean by not confusing romance and intimacy?

I shall take a guess. Besides sex and emotional intimacy (being able to be open, trust, feeling well together...), romance is the attachment part, along with some ilusions. Romance is wanting to have the other in your life forever. Romance is, when you cannot get the other out of your mind no matter what you do. (Happened to me even after a short physical encounters with a man I didn't really know ... does that mean I cannot be physical without romance?) Romance is wanting to be together every free minute and making the other priority pretty much over everything like in the first weeks of a relationship.
Is that it?

Thanks for your opinion. I appreciate you trying along with me to figure it out!

I'd say I have a very romantic relationship with my live-in gf miss pixi. But after almost 7 years together, we are well out of NRE. I do NOT have the feeling I need or want to be with her every minute. In fact, since I am poly, I love the variety I can have in our relationship. I can seek and find other partners, spend time with them every week, gods willing, and so can she. And we both have OSOs now. I enjoy my me-time when she goes to her bimonthly overnights with her bf. She sometimes gets separation anxiety when I go somewhere, but then again, she can also enjoy her me-time when I am away.

I'd love to have her in my life forever, and I probably will. But we haven't made specific vows to be together forever. Lots of poly people also agree, the commitment is for now, and for as long as the relationship is healthy and brings joy to both partners. We don't just rest on our laurels and take the other for granted because of some assurance from a marriage vow that this coupling is for life.

But maybe with your current bf, or bff or whatever he is, he doesn't have a deep enough feeling for you of desire, attachment, "can't get you out of my mind" kind of thing.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi NicoleSpiral,

Re (from OP):

"We don't have to be exclusive. Neither of us would be getting our romantic needs met from the relationship so maybe we could take our relationship up a notch but continue to date others. Is this a horrible idea?"

I don't suppose so. But even if it was the best idea ever, you're still in the same predicament if he doesn't want to do it.

I think GalaGirl gave the advice I agree with the most. Don't drop this guy as a best friend, but make a complete break in the romantic department.

Who knows what will be decided if the two of you talk about it, though.

Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[IndieSolo]

Nycindie, what exactly did you mean by not confusing romance and intimacy?

Here is how I see them.

Intimacy is closeness and sharing deeper parts of yourself with someone (and they with you). It is an exchange involving familiarity, a deep rapport, and even a little risk-taking. By that I mean, certain levels of intimacy allow us to risk letting people see parts of ourselves that perhaps others don't see or are not allowed to see. A dynamic between people becomes intimate when they both let themselves be seen and be vulnerable with each other.

There are different kinds of intimacy - sexual intimacy is one way to be intimate physically, since sex is a form of communication, but platonic friendships are intimate, too. You can have intellectual intimacy with someone, which is essentially sharing thoughts, philosophies, and ideas to such a degree that you become closer to each other. Workplaces can be intimate (over time or through intense periods of concentration on a particular goal or project) because people working closely together eventually know each other pretty well and let co-workers see parts of who they are that they normally wouldn't.

Romance, on the other hand, is the outward expression of love and/or affection. I see it as demonstration of feelings, and also meeting the expectations we place on having affectionate or loving feelings expressed to us. It can involve a lot of "smoke and mirrors" to set a mood or atmosphere and is often about proving one's loving or affectionate feelings. We often ask people here, "does your partner still romance you?" which generally means the dinners out, flowers, buying presents, doing chores for them, etc.

Romantic gestures seem to signal that a relationship is at a certain level of love. People generally feel that, without romance they aren't sure about the deeper feelings they might share with someone. "He isn't romantic with me anymore, so I think he has fallen out of love with me." Romantic entanglement involves a lot of fulfilling of fantasies, or encouraging those fantasies, such as professing that you will stay together forever -- but it's a totally different thing than true intimacy is. For me, personally, I don't want romance as much as I want intimacy in my relationships.

When I said to the OP not to romanticize the intimacy she shared with her friend, I meant that intimacy is closeness that they already have, but that romanticizing it places unnecessary expectations on it. It's something we see a lot in the workplace or in Hollywood, which is a good example I wrote about in another thread on intimacy (where I used the word "sexualize," you can replace it with "romanticize" ):

. . . I also think that vulnerability is a key element of intimacy, and that Western society doesn't have a clue about how to "handle" intimacy in all its forms. I will offer examples of what I mean by that.

Oftentimes, we will read that two actors met on a movie shoot or while appearing in a play together and got involved in a torrid love affair, only for it to all fall apart after the film or play is over. A film shoot, especially if far away from home, or a stage production, is an intensely intimate setting, where people are in close proximity with other people for an extended period, actors let their guard down to dig deep into parts of themselves in order to portray characters, and crew members have to cooperate closely with one another, all while everyone is, at the same time, immersed in this insulated small world working together on the project, and perhaps meeting personal challenges that they wouldn't normally have in their everyday life. They eat all their meals together, look out for each other, take risks, and find camaraderie with folks they never would befriend in real life. If one person catches a cold, everyone does. It is intense and it is intimate. So, oftentimes, two co-stars will start up a romance out of that situation, but it doesn't last after the film shoot or play ends.

Or we know people who met at an office job, and had to work closely together on some project, having become immersed in each other's "work life" in an intense way, and thought that the level of intimacy they experienced during this process was a basis for a relationship, so they start dating. But if one of them moves on and leaves the job or even just transfers to a different department, the relationship fizzles. This is because they tried to build a romantic relationship, not out of a connection that could be a strong foundation but, rather, out of the intensity of feelings they experienced in an intimate setting.

My theory is that people have a tendency to get confused about intimacy in a setting that is simply interpersonal and not sexual; they then try to turn the intimacy they shared and experienced together into a romantic and sexual relationship because they don't know what the hell else to do with all this closeness and revealing of themselves that went on during whatever situation they were in. They became vulnerable with each other, and then got confused about the intimacy. And especially if there is close proximity and some touch, even just hugs or hand-holding, for example, it is even more confusing because Western culture, or at least in North America, is much less comfortable with non-sexual touch and most people don't know how to handle it. So instead of allowing themselves to experience the intimacy, they rush into sexualizing it. They have sex and try to make relationships out of it. But when the intense situation, in which they first experienced the intimacy together, ends - whoa! - then they have the real person in front of them with whom they aren't actually compatible for the long term, and they didn't see that before because they don't really know each other as well as they thought they did, and they rushed into sex and let all those chemicals cloud their judgment and ability to see the actual person for who they are.

The initial period of intense intimacy was based on one aspect of who they are, the vulnerability might have been scary or risky and exciting to feel and share, the sex was based on confusion about what intimacy is, and then ultimately, the relationship didn't have enough of a solid footing to stand alone. Now, of course, some people are right for each other and make it work for years afterward, but more often than not, it doesn't happen. I think that, when intimacy - emotional, intellectual, sexual - can develop over time, in all aspects of being with someone, then there is a basis for a solid, loving relationship. And intimacy can keep growing. But, just because there is such a thing as sexual intimacy, we shouldn't just equate intimacy, per se, with sex or romance. We can be intimate in many ways.

More often than not, if you take an intimate experience and want to turn it into sex or romance, you will wind up saying, "What was I thinking?"

 

[vinsanity0]

I don't know what romance is for some people! I guess to me, romance is the trappings, flowers, incense, cuddling in front of a fire, candlelight dinners, long walks on the beach or under the moon, riding horses naked? lol

I tend to think men are less romantic than women. All that is "that mushy stuff" they would jeer at in movies when they were in 6th grade and girls had cooties.

But grey romantic? Aromantic? Does that mean you can't love deeply? It's always more surface, casual? But if you're sharing deep feelings, and supporting each other through hardships, doesn't that deepen a "romantic bond," unless you're a user, or self centered, like a narcissist or the way some people with Asperger's can be?

It varies with everyone. Elle hates flowers, Cat loves them. Sprite's idea of romance is buying a whip especially for her...lol. I think romance is more about how you show your love and not if you can love. Complicated subject.

 

[KC43]

Thanks for posting that, Cyndie. It's along the same lines as how I see the difference between intimacy and romance, and I started to post my version a few times but couldn't make it coherent.

I would also say that on the emotional side, intimacy can include many different forms of love (deep friendship, familial love, etc.), while romance is mostly, if not solely, being "in love."

Mags, about grey romantic and aromantic... Having emotional intimacy, or even physical intimacy, with someone when you're grey-ro or aro wouldn't deepen a romantic bond because there wouldn't be one. Aromantic, as I understand it (one of Country's friends identifies as aromantic, and explained it to me for a book I was working on), is somewhat akin to asexual; with asexuality, you don't experience *sexual* attraction, with aromanticism, you don't experience *romantic* attraction. You might form deep friendships, or you might lust after people, but "falling in love" isn't a thing that happens.

Grey romantic, I believe, would be when you *generally* don't experience romantic attraction, but you might for a specific person, along the lines of grey-asexuality being when you don't usually experience sexual attraction but for a specific person you might.