Marriage as an excuse

[greenhat]

Backstory: I've been in a polyfi triad with a married couple for two years. We started with no hierarchy but over time have realized that there is a natural primary/secondary structure in place with me as the secondary. I don't like it, but it is what it is. We've talked about opening up so I can find a primary of my own, but not everyone is comfortable with the idea. Anyways, that's not the problem I'm here to write about....

My boyfriend and I had an argument this morning because he'd told my girlfriend (his wife) about what I had thought was a private conversation between us. I hadn't explicitly stated that the conversation in question be kept between us-- admittedly I make the mistake of assuming other people place privacy on the same pedestal that I do. But it still bothered me, in part because I don't hear about their fights and misunderstandings-- those are kept private by default, so why aren't ours? But also because when he told me about telling her, it was in the context of "no you're wrong, and GF thinks so too" which just felt like a fight between he and I suddenly became something that was two-against-one.

After I let him know I would appreciate him keeping our conversations between us in the future, my boyfriend says that I shouldn't expect him not to tell my girlfriend things because they're married. He's thrown this at me before (I've even been told I shouldn't expect my feelings to carry as much weight as either of theirs, because they're married). My girlfriend does NOT feel this way, but my boyfriend still uses their marriage like a weapon against me in fights sometimes.

It's not that I don't want to tell my girlfriend things. She and I have our OWN private conversations. They have their private conversations. But because they're married I shouldn't expect he and I to be able to have the same?

I feel like "because we're married" is a great response to "Hey, why do you guys have those rings on your fingers?" and little else. But maybe I'm wrong, and maybe I'm not entitled to privacy or other things because they're married. No one in my life really understands this relationship, so I'm posting here for maybe some perspective and to feel a little less like I'm crazy for feeling this way.

 

[powerpuffgrl1969]

You're not crazy. The relationship is teeming with couples privilege. I have little to offer in the way of practical advice, but expecting a private conversation to stay private is NOT unreasonable.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry you struggle.

My boyfriend and I had an argument this morning because he'd told my girlfriend (his wife) about what I had thought was a private conversation between us. I hadn't explicitly stated that the conversation in question be kept between us...

I am glad you spoke up. Did he agree to keep things private? That part was not clear.

when he told me about telling her, it was in the context of "no you're wrong, and GF thinks so too" which just felt like a fight between he and I suddenly became something that was two-against-one.

I don't know why he's trying to make it be a "right" or "wrong" thing. You are not wrong to have a preference for keeping things private. You are allowed to have your own preferences.

After I let him know I would appreciate him keeping our conversations between us in the future, my boyfriend says that I shouldn't expect him not to tell my girlfriend things because they're married.

If he means "You should not expect me to keep conversations private in future because I am not willing to do that" then he could say that. Not blame-shift on to the GF or the marriage. Sheesh.

He's thrown this at me before (I've even been told I shouldn't expect my feelings to carry as much weight as either of theirs, because they're married). My girlfriend does NOT feel this way, but my boyfriend still uses their marriage like a weapon against me in fights sometimes.

Why is someone who presumably loves you behaving like that?

Have you and GF tried talking to him about this together? So he cannot use her or the marriage as the scapegoat for him not wanting to take ownership of his own choices/behavior?

I cannot imagine that she'd be happy with him using her or their marriage as a scapegoat thing so he doesn't have to take personal responsibility. Or as a blame shifting thing. Or as a weapon.

None of that sounds like loving or kind behavior toward either one of you.

It's not that I don't want to tell my girlfriend things. She and I have our OWN private conversations. They have their private conversations. But because they're married I shouldn't expect he and I to be able to have the same?

He is not the boss of you. You can expect whatever you want. They are YOUR expectations, YOUR personal standards for people you will and will not date. He either makes the cut or not. He doesn't get to set the bar. It's YOUR bar.

I think you can request that he meet that expectation.

• If he is going to meet it now? But is grumbling along the way? You could ignore the grumbling part of it for now. Enjoy that you will be getting private conversations from this point forward. Then address this communication style at a later date from cooler heads.

• If he is not going to meet it? Rather than get too hung up on how he is declining it with his communication style by blaming the GF or the marriage or whatever? You could focus on the fact that NO. He will not be keeping your conversations private. You could figure out is this is a deal breaker thing for you and you don't want him as a partner because he doesn't make the cut. Or if this is not a deal breaker and you are willing to live with this behavior from him and live with no privacy. And lower your expectations.

But you are still the boss of of your expectations. Not him.

I feel like "because we're married" is a great response to "Hey, why do you guys have those rings on your fingers?" and little else. But maybe I'm wrong, and maybe I'm not entitled to privacy or other things because they're married.

I don't think you are crazy for feeling this way. You are not a second class citizen. Each dyad needs privacy, respect, etc. Your GF manages to provide this and it sounds like you get along ok with her.

I might be wrong, but to me it sounds like he's blowing fog and dissembling.

If I were in your shoes? I'd be annoyed if BF was not owning his stuff and "passing the buck" on to other people (his wife/your GF) or institutions (marriage.)

When I request "Could you be willing to keep things between us private?"

I'd much rather hear things straight up like "No. I am not willing to do that."

I do not want to be talked down to or be given the run around with stuff like

• "No, you are wrong to expect things like that"
• "No, your feelings don't count as much as ours"
• "No, you should not expect me to keep things private between us because I'm married"

Sounds like he flips things around on you in order to avoid taking personal responsibility/ownership like...

• "No. I am not willing to do that. "
• "No. I am not willing to consider your feelings. "
• "No. I will not keep things private. "

You can expect things. He is just not willing to meet your expectations.

Your feelings count just as anyone else's. He is just not willing to recognize that in this relationship or take them in consideration.

You can expect people you date to keep things private between you. He is just not willing to do that.

And in his communication style? He also doesn't speak straight up. He does runaround stuff.

It doesn't sound like he meets your personal standards at this time. You could ask him to stop doing these behaviors and start doing others. And if he still will not?
You may have to evaluate if this is something you want to live with or not.

Maybe you just want to date the GF who IS meeting your personal standards. And have a peaceful break up with the BF that does not. Skip the hassles and focus more on the good stuff.

Galagirl

 

[Marcus]

He's thrown this at me before (I've even been told I shouldn't expect my feelings to carry as much weight as either of theirs, because they're married).

I wouldn't call this a triad. I would consider this to be a primary couple and their mutual secondary.

Love it or leave it. Sounds like he has made his position crystal clear and doesn't give a shit how you feel about it.

 

[breathemusic]

Agree with Marcus. I think the only options are to accept a lower level of expectations and learn to be ok with a secondary and them having a lot of Couple Privilege, or if that relationship style isn't one that you can be ok with, then run like hell and find someone(s) who will meet your expectations.

 

[greenhat]

You're not crazy. The relationship is teeming with couples privilege. I have little to offer in the way of practical advice, but expecting a private conversation to stay private is NOT unreasonable.

Thank you!

I am glad you spoke up. Did he agree to keep things private? That part was not clear.

He said that if I prefaced a conversation with something like "please keep this between us" that he would keep it private. I can understand that and am willing to do it. I did let him know that as a private person, my default is, if I'm telling someone about my feelings I want that kept between us. That's the part he's not willing to meet. I feel a little upset because we've had a number of conversations over the past two years, and after learning about our different mindsets here I'm sure there are things I wanted private that were not.

If he means "You should not expect me to keep conversations private in future because I am not willing to do that" then he could say that and take ownership of his behavior.

I have had that argument with him before and it just falls on dead ears. He insists he's not dodging personal responsibility when he uses the marriage as an excuse for why he did or didn't do something. It does feel good to see someone else saying it, too, because sometimes I really wonder if I'm just being unreasonable.

GF does feel it's wrong of him to use the marriage as a weapon. But I don't think she really wants to get involved.

You definitely gave me some stuff to think about-- thank you!

Love it or leave it. Sounds like he has made his position crystal clear and doesn't give a shit how you feel about it.

I hate that this is true, but I know that it is.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi greenhat,

From your description, I gather that your boyfriend is acting really snooty toward you. I don't know if he and your girlfriend are a package deal, but I would break up with him if possible, and not have anything to do with him in the future. But maybe you are willing to endure his shenanigans in order to hang onto your relationship with his wife. And maybe he acts awesome when he isn't using his marriage to excuse himself. I don't know.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to have an expecation of privacy. But obviously he doesn't see it that way, and I doubt he ever will.

With sympathy,
Kevin T.

 

[Shaya]

Hi GreenHat,

On the offchance you haven't come accross it before, here is Franklin Veaux's proposed secondary bill of rights.

If there's love between you and he, and a commitment to make things better, then things can change. I tend to recommend reconcilitation over breakup but that's just my bias speaking.

Best wishes,
Shaya

 

[GalaGirl]

He said that if I prefaced a conversation with something like "please keep this between us" that he would keep it private. I can understand that and am willing to do it. I did let him know that as a private person, my default is, if I'm telling someone about my feelings I want that kept between us. That's the part he's not willing to meet.

If you are going to stay, then you may have to tell him each and every time that you want something kept private. Like each and every time you have to put change into the soda machine to get soda out of it.

Perhaps after enough times of "each and every time" he would become more willing to accept it as "default setting" for you. Like "this is the plan until further notice." Like the phone. Most people I know have cel phone plans and just pay by the month. "Plan A" is their cel phone plan until further notice. Maybe someday they want to bump up to Plan B, or Plan C, but right now? They just want Plan A. They aren't taking out a new contract each and every time like sticking a quarter in an old pay phone to get to make a call.

Or maybe you decide to simply not tell him anything private so he has nothing to blab.

Otherwise the only other thing I can think of is to stop dating him because he doesn't meet your personal standards and you don't want to be dealing with this junk any more.

Galagirl

 

[MsEmotional]

I have to admit that it is difficult, after a long period of spousal privileges, to adjust to keeping things private from my spouse. I get it that confidentiality is the default for a lot of people, but it isn't for me. Everyone I know who is married has the same deal with their spouses -- in fact, yesterday I told my friend about being poly and she immediately said, "yeah, I definitely will keep his confidential. I won't tell anyone -- except [my husband] of course, because, you know, spousal privileges." You just kind of assume that your spouse is an extension of yourself and that anything that anyone tells you is fair game to share with your spouse.

It has been really difficult to not blab stuff from my boyfriend to my husband -- it's just what's I am used to doing. I am adjusting to this new mindset and it sounds like your boyfriend needs to adjust to new boundaries around you as well.

I am not at all saying that his position is justified -- especially in light of his other comments about their feelings being more important than yours, it seems like this is part of a bigger problem. But dealing with this issue specifically, I would probably just start saying "I'd like you to keep this between us" like a broken record until it becomes the default that you are expecting from him.

 

[BathedInSalt]

I also agree with Marcus and Breath. I have zero experience with this in any real way, but if I were in a triad I would assume that the "couples privilege" of what one know the other knows would apply to all three partners...a triad privilege.

I know I've use that privilege and I assume that if I tell something to one of my girls she might talk to her husband about it. I don't take it as a slight against me or our friendship. I just see my friends partner as her confidant, her sounding board. It just makes sense to me that they talk.

I also support everything Gala Girl says, she's really good at removing the BS from a scenario and once you just look at the facts and you realize it's ok to be you and ask for what you want the next steps be path clear.

good luck and I'm sorry you're having to deal with the ice feelings right now

 

[Ravenscroft]

Discussing "couple privilege" as though it's somehow natural or inevitable, or at all desirable in a poly context... sorta creeps me out.

Anna & I had an explicit agreement that if we felt the need to process some difficult feeling we were having over another lover, we could freely turn to each other for advice, AND anything said was "privileged" in a legalistic sense in that it would go no further. Maybe we simply needed a safe place to vent some frustration so as to view the situation more clearly; in that case, we agreed we'd try to not let the momentary negatives prejudice us against the other.

In relationships, mistakes & misunderstandings happen. It's how individuals deal with them -- not the OUTCOME so much as the PROCESS -- that indicates the relationship's quality.

I'm seeing some really poor process.

 

[FallenAngelina]

Love it or leave it. Sounds like he has made his position crystal clear and doesn't give a shit how you feel about it.

I hate that this is true, but I know that it is.

Yeah, call it couple privilege or just a crappy way to treat a human being. Why do you want to be in a relationship where your partner doesn't give a shit about your feelings? "Poly" is no reason to stay where you're devalued. A lot of people seem to be forgetting about the "amory" part of poly.

 

[icesong]

I have to admit that it is difficult, after a long period of spousal privileges, to adjust to keeping things private from my spouse. I get it that confidentiality is the default for a lot of people, but it isn't for me. Everyone I know who is married has the same deal with their spouses... snip ...I am adjusting to this new mindset and it sounds like your boyfriend needs to adjust to new boundaries around you as well.

Ha, well, if you count people you've discussed this stuff with online, you now know a decent number of people who DON'T have that arrangement - although I do agree that it's tremendously hard to change that habit. Luckily my partners are fairly easy going in that respect - I have other acquaintances who are fiercely protective of their privacy in ways that I don't understand and have a hard time complying with. Knight was worse in this respect - back during the years we were in quads, I used to end up with more information about my male partners via things their wives told Knight than what they'd tell me. (This was very much not a good thing for SO many reasons, and in retrospect it'd have been better had I not known - something the OP might want to point out to her boyfriend, actually, that not only is the BF betraying your trust but possibly negatively affecting her relationship with GF).

 

[BathedInSalt]

Discussing "couple privilege" as though it's somehow natural or inevitable, or at all desirable in a poly context... sorta creeps me out.

I'm new to this concept, I am very interested in being schooled on the subject.

 

[Shaya]

I'm new to this concept, I am very interested in being schooled on the subject.

Not sure if this touches on what you're looking for BathedinSalt. It's an article on the spectrum of control being the defining difference between monogamy and relationship anarchy with most of the other common relationship styles plotted on a spectrum of control between these two extremes.

I don't personally have a problem with couple privilege - monogamy comes with a shit load of couple privilege, much of it legally sanctioned even. Swinging comes with couple privilege. Even friends with benefits comes with couple privilege. These are all valid relationship styles where couple privilege may not pose many problems. To me, problems with couple privilege seem to arise as you head further along the control spectrum towards relationship anarchy. To me, the issue of control in a relationship as described in the linked article, closely mirrors that of the acceptance of couple privilege. Equivalently, monogamy often focuses relatively more on the relationship whilst relationship anarchy seems to focus relatively more on the individuals in the relationship.

Just my thoughts. Happy to be corrected by someone who has thought more about this than I have. I'm still learning here.

 

[vinsanity0]

I think it is natural to confide in the other half of a couple. The problem here is that other half is also your other half (or third). But to throw something you said in her face sounds like triangulation.

 

[BathedInSalt]

Not sure if this touches on what you're looking for BathedinSalt. It's an article on the spectrum of control being the defining difference between monogamy and relationship anarchy with most of the other common relationship styles plotted on a spectrum of control between these two extremes.
.

I have some thought about the article, not sure if it's ok to derail this thread though.
I still don't quite understand couples privilege.

Another thing I was thinking about though specific to the OP is how easy it would be to feel ganged up on if your partners were speaking critically of you. Is that part of what's happening?

 

[SchrodingersCat]

I'm confused. Was the "private" conversation about the relationship, or something unrelated about you personally that didn't direct affect the others?

Because if you and the boyfriend had a conversation about the relationship, then that affects the wife as well (being as it's nominally a triad). I personally value openness and transparency far above privacy, when it comes to communication and relationships. It's a short slippery slope from privacy to secrecy, and asking people to keep secrets from their spouses, especially when those secrets affect the spouse, is not kosher in my books.

I'm not saying that justifies the way he turned it around as a "no you're wrong, and GF thinks so too," which is just juvenile and petty. But I don't think it's reasonable to expect to keep a conversation about your relationship "private" from one of the people in the relationship.

expecting a private conversation to stay private is NOT unreasonable.

If you want a conversation to be private, you have to make that clear BEFORE you have the conversation.

That said, the boyfriend isn't blameless. I take the accountability to tell all my partners that my husband and I have no secrets, and that he's my sounding board for everything. If someone wants to have a secret from my husband, then they'd better keep it secret from me too. Especially regarding things that affect him too. Call it couples privilege if you want, but that's how our marriage works. Anyone who comes along is free to accept it or keep walking. Open honest communication is the cornerstone to a good relationship. If something in another relationship is bothering me, I'm human and I'm going to "take it home" with me. If I can't talk to my husband about what's bothering me, he's going to think it's something to do with him. If I say "I can't talk about it" then it sounds like I'm sneaking around at something.

I don't actually understand why people in 2017 still have an expectation of privacy, what with technology, the government, and hackers being what they are. It's just not a realistic expectation given the current reality of the world. It's like expecting capitalist businesses to put employees or the environment above profit -- it's a nice pipe dream, but it's just not realistic given the situation we find ourselves in. So I look forward to the day that we drop the charade and move into a culture based on transparency rather than secrecy. But I digress.

I have other acquaintances who are fiercely protective of their privacy in ways that I don't understand and have a hard time complying with

I'm with you. My inclination is that the only way to keep a secret is to tell exactly zero people. People who confide in me and then expect me to keep it secret, but don't tell me that explicitly, I just don't understand. It's like, if this is secret or private, then why are you even telling me?

 

[powerpuffgrl1969]

Did you read "The Circle" by Dave Eggers? (made into a terrible movie this year.) I very highly value my privacy. I also respect the privacy of others. Complete transparency sounds absolutely horrifying to me.

I don't go through my husband's phone or e-mails, and I expect him to afford me the same consideration. Unless there was something life-threatening going on, I wouldn't go through my kid's stuff, either.