Married and in Guelph, Ontario, Canada -- Seeking Opinions and Guidance

[jsj]

Hello friends,

My name is J. I am happily married to B, will be celebrating 5 years married in July, and have a pretty nifty little boy named G (I wanted to name him RoboCop, but my wife said it'd be a problem at the border...well played wife).

I wrote a full version of my story, but I got this warning (just to give it perspective).

The text that you have entered is too long (21091 characters). Please shorten it to 10000 characters long.

I admit most won't want to read that.

So I'm going to copy and paste the TLDR; version.

• We are currently unconsciously, non-verbally agreed, monogamous.
• I would say we have a most excellent and satisfying relationship. Emotionally and physically.
• I was not a great partner for awhile. I've put monumentous effort, of my own volition, into improving, and was not prodded to do so. I'm proud of where I am and excited about where I will be. As a partner, father and a member of this family. It's been a rewarding experience.
• Our physical relationship has been very consistent the last 9 months and had a bump since then.
• Wife has a huge lust for a kid 8 years younger than her (he's a kid).
• I recognize, accept and embrace why it happened.
• Checklist on why is obvious. Wife is done breastfeeding. She's hit her mid 30s, which for women can be a huge spike in their sexuality. It's spring, and she hates winter (spring flowers...). She's been pretty much imprisoned with child for the first year, because I was a turd dad. She's off birth control for the first time in 15 years. Also daddy put on the body weight, and she's 5lbs lighter than what she was pre-pregnancy. She's had the same package for 12 years, 2 packages in the last 20. Not really a big deal, but she's slept with a number below the average, and it has crossed her mind about (what ifs---that's cool, I like it). Given all this, and human nature, the eye wanders. She'd hit the goldilocks zone for this kind of thing.
• I am uncomfortable with the management of the situation.
• Their relationship started 5 years ago, but it took a turn 9 months ago, and crossed lines at 7 months, 5 months, 2 months, last week and this past weekend. By lines, I mean milestones in terms of it being "something".
• Wife has been lying to me about it, and lying about where she is.
• Wife has been saying it's platonic, it isn't.
• I've gone through her phone twice (shitty) just to get her to admit what the reality was. Good result. Awful way of doing it. I feel bad. This is not appropriate behaviour.
• We both agree non-monogamy is natural and reasonable.
• I have issues with her accepting reality for what it is.
• I want to get to the next step where I can feel good about her exploring.
• Jealousy exists, but I own it, and is not an issue or affecting me negatively at all.
• I'm putting in a pile of work to grow in this one issue, she is not.
• I've sought guidance from a friend at Kinsey and am seeing a sex therapist to help me navigate this path. She watches friends, and I feel a little disrespected.
• I am 100% okay with physical. I'm okay beyond that. I accept this is going to be more than a one time thing. She thinks it will be in an out burger, and done with.
• I believe he is in love with her, and I think it's a little unethical to ignore that possibility.
• She has asked a friend to "take one for the team and bang my husband so I can get mine on", which is fun and fine, but puts it into perspective. She's also spoken to him about their open relationship, again not platonic.
• Nothing physical has happened yet, despite her having multiple opportunities (at his house drunk 4 am several times).
• This is going to happen no matter what. I want it to happen in a way that respects everyone and our relationship, she thinks it'll be business as usual the next day.
• I do not have trust issues, despite the fact it might seem that way from this short version.
• I am not threatened by this. If she wants to leave, and we can't work it out, she should leave. Likewise I will leave if I feel the same way. We are very open about that.
• Above all, I want my wife to be happy and fulfilled.

I'm looking for any guidance, suggestions, whatever to make this a more positive and rewarding experience.

I'm also very down to share the whole story if anyone wants to read it.

 

[OnceAndFuture]

jsj: Welcome! I had a good friend in college from Guelph.

I'm a little confused: if your wife is looking mainly for a sexual relationship, but "nothing physical" has occurred despite strong temptations, what exactly has happened? Has your wife confessed to what she really wants? Did you admit to your wife that you looked through her phone? And lastly what do you want...is banging her friend (if that even had a chance of happening) really going to make you feel better about her having an emotional relationship with someone else?

Hope you find what you are looking for here.

 

[FallenAngelina]

She's hit her mid 30s, which for women can be a huge spike in their sexuality.

Welcome -

I think it's worth mentioning that this is an urban myth - also a suburban and rural myth by now, it's taken on so much steam in the popular consciousness. Women experience a huge spike in their sexuality any time they find the courage, opportunity and support and for many women, these three things don't come together until well into maturity as an adult. Young men are rewarded at every turn to explore their sexuality. Young women - not so much. Any time a woman finds herself within the regular company of cultural support and positive role models, she will often find a boldness and sexual expression that she never knew she was capable of. Men experience such encouragement and freedom starting in their teens and women usually don't find this (if they do find it) until their child bearing years (or interest) is nearing completion. Hence, the myth that 18 year year old men and 35 year old women are at their sexual peaks. It's just a common assumption, backed up by a poorly designed and much flawed study in Dr. Alfred Kinsey's book "Sexual Behavior in the Human Female" written in 1953 when women were heavily schooled to save their virginity for marriage.

"There isn’t a decade in a woman's life where she reaches her sexual peak." if you're interested in reading more.

 

[GalaGirl]

I am sorry you struggle.

You seem to be owning your past poor behavior. (ex: not being a good dad, snooping in her phone) and have made changes and are taking some positive steps (ex: I've sought guidance from a friend at Kinsey and am seeing a sex therapist)

Thing is, for this to go well, all of you have to be on the same page and own your behaviors. She doesn't sound like she's doing that.

I really don't care for these. I could see where they would bug you.

Wife has been lying to me about it, and lying about where she is.(Not cool.)

I believe he is in love with her, and I think it's a little unethical to ignore that possibility. (I agree. He's not a toy. He is a person.)

She has asked a friend to "take one for the team and bang my husband so I can get mine on" (Friend is an object too? It is her job to make your wife's life easier by fucking who wife says to fuck? And you are an obstacle type object? Are people PEOPLE to her? If that's how wife normally talks/acts I can see why you feel disrespected. Ugh. )

She's also spoken to him about their open relationship, again not platonic. (They do not have an Open relationship. He is a single man, a free agent. He can date who he wants without considering her. If they have anything but a friendship right now, since you and her sound Closed, it would be cheating.)

You seem willing to talk about both Opening the marriage properly or splitting up properly first. Both could be saner approaches. I think she's not appreciating your willingness to be sane about it all.

I suggest you put that out there outright. Over email if you want the date stamp.

"If you do anything at this point in time, I consider it cheating while in a Closed marriage. I have not given my consent at this point in time. Consequences would be that we end it.

I am willing to take 1 of 2 approaches. Either work with me on Opening up the marriage properly, and obtain my consent. Or break up with me before you go there with him. Then my consenting doesn't even apply any more. You are free to do as you wish. Both are cleaner, more responsible approaches to me.

This leading him on while lying to me? Not considering other people's feelings? Treating people like objects? Taking me and our marriage for granted? Not cool with me."​

Then let the chips fall where they may. Expect her to step up and be a responsible adult about it.

But have your emergency preparedness plan ready in case she's decides to play shenanigans.

Galagirl

 

[Spork]

GalaGirl nailed it...as per the usual.

But I wanted to comment on the below about women having a sexual peak...OK, maybe not, but he says she went off of birth control after being on for a long time. BOOM! Hormonal change. And that can definitely cause sudden changes in desire and behavior. When I quit Depo Provera (which is godawful poison) I felt like a crazy person.

Later stages in life can also come along with logistical changes that let a woman more apt to consider sexual freedom and expression. Maybe she was not able to earn much and was dependent as a young person and later her career is established. Maybe her kids are grown up some and less dependent on her. Maybe it's just more logistically feasible to consider alternatives to faithful monogamy if she is so inclined, at a later stage. When I was in my 20's I was so busy scrambling to keep our budget afloat and keep the kids fed, housed, and from killing each other like miniature Spy vs. Spy that I didn't have time to think about what kind of sex I'd like to be having.

=FallenAngelina;322496]Welcome -

I think it's worth mentioning that this is an urban myth - also a suburban and rural myth by now, it's taken on so much steam in the popular consciousness. Women experience a huge spike in their sexuality any time they find the courage, opportunity and support and for many women, these three things don't come together until well into maturity as an adult. Young men are rewarded at every turn to explore their sexuality. Young women - not so much. Any time a woman finds herself within the regular company of cultural support and positive role models, she will often find a boldness and sexual expression that she never knew she was capable of. Men experience such encouragement and freedom starting in their teens and women usually don't find this (if they do find it) until their child bearing years (or interest) is nearing completion. Hence, the myth that 18 year year old men and 35 year old women are at their sexual peaks. It's just a common assumption, backed up by a poorly designed and much flawed study in Dr. Alfred Kinsey's book "Sexual Behavior in the Human Female" written in 1953 when women were heavily schooled to save their virginity for marriage.

"There isn’t a decade in a woman's life where she reaches her sexual peak." if you're interested in reading more.

 

[FallenAngelina]

Certainly, individuals will have individual reasons for increased sexual desire, but the point remains, there is no such thing as biological sexual peak in the mid 30's for women. There is just a confluence of circumstance, opportunity, support and yes, one's physical condition enters in to it as well. Younger women are rarely encouraged to fully explore their sexuality and there's no biological peak in the mid 30s after which comes a decline. Of course individual circumstance will influence this for each individual.

It's important to recognize this because choice is important. A woman doesn't just suddenly develop a taste for sex out of nowhere in her mid 30s. She often has to claim her sexuality in so many ways and that is courageous, not something that she biologically falls into.

 

[jsj]

You are all wonderful people. I respect the answers here.

I admit I bought into the 30s thing, with no actual scientific proof to prove it. My bad. The rest I take as pretty legitimate though. My point is I accept all of it. It's cool. It's good to be alive.

The object thing is an interesting point. I'd say absolutely she doesn't think that, and I'd like to point out a lot of context is missing because of bullet points, but I had not considered that. She has a lot of respect for her friend, and does have a naive view of a lot of things, however I'm not mad at that. We both have a lot of learning to do, and regardless of what her decision is, or her actions, I'm interested in learning myself.

To answer all questions that point to transparency, we've talked about every little detail of things. She says I'm smothering her, absolutely I was. I respect her and have pulled back a lot. I need to respect her space and let her open up as she can, but having said that, I think that there's a lot of work that needs to be done on her part.

The thing is, everyone that doesn't participate in this life style says "it'll never work" or "why does she want this...". I don't buy that, and to be honest if this is what broke us up, I really feel something else would. I'm not at all concerned about her leaving me for him or anyone else. I think we have a very healthy and awesome relationship, just mismanaged everything to do with a single situation. Mismanaged on both sides.

She also told me yesterday I've put her on a pedestal too much, and that it isn't how I normally am with who I date. I agree, I didn't care for them nearly as much as her. I didn't know I wanted to be with them forever, and I didn't start a family with them. I'm not a bad guy for doing that, and she's not a bad person for maybe feeling awkward about it.

Anyway, so much to explore. I don't know what the right answer is, but I've made it very clear that I am not okay with a physical relationship of any sort, until we are both on the same page.

The thing is, she's really okay with the "don't ask/don't tell" cheating thing, which doesn't sit well with me. For me, that's not a relationship, and I believe it's not congruent with how we personally live.

Thanks again for pointers. I'll keep reading here, and checking other posts. This is a boon for people thinking about, curious about, or exploring this lifestyle, and it's good because of good people.

 

[Spork]

I have found myself explaining the difference between poly and cheating to many of my mono friends and family. It's similar in a way to the difference between sex and rape. I know that's a harsh way to put it...but it ALL comes down to informed consent. And like so many interactions between human beings, that is the crux of the matter. BDSM or abuse? Informed consent or lack thereof. A gift, or theft? Informed consent (of the original owner of a thing) or lack thereof. So much of the time, the question of right or wrong comes right down to that, and if we are going to live like civilized creatures in a society, we should really try to respect these kinds of conventions.

So if one is cheating, one is willfully and knowingly doing something that they know would cause their partner emotional pain, generally hiding it or lying about it, and depriving their partner of the chance to make an informed choice...yes, I can accept this, or no, I cannot. That's the morality of it. And a relationship without respect and trust is not one that will usually be happy or lasting.

It seems that this distinction matters to you (and I think, rightly so), so I hope you can establish that point with your wife.

 

[jsj]

I revisited the first reply, and I thought I should answer those questions.


1) if your wife is looking mainly for a sexual relationship, but "nothing physical" has occurred despite strong temptations,
That is what she has said. She says she just wants one time. I don't believe it's going to be one time and I thin there's more involved.
Nothing physical has happened yet, and she says lack of opportunity. There's always people around that know her (he and she work together, I used to work there too....which to me would mean absolute no, unless you are 100% open about it, but even then).
Her text messages involved parts doing things to other parts. Not platonic. I was wrong to invade her privacy though, I will live with that.

2) what exactly has happened?
Basically every month for the last 9 months she goes over to his house until 4am. Inconsistent behaviour.
On 2 occassions she has told me she was at a girlfiend's house, inconsistent behaviour.
She's maintained it's platonic, but then the text messages say otherwise.
She's now actually spoken about a physical relationship with him. To what detail, she hasn't said, which annoys me. I'd have had a script for that talk, but that's me.
I'm upset at the management of this situation, lack of a plan. She's not single. We have no agreement. We have a child. Needs boundaries and compassion. I feel less like partners on this issue.
I dont' think I'm the weak link here though.


3) Has your wife confessed to what she really wants?
Absolutely. She says she wants a one time sexual fling with this specific person, and that they can go back to platonic. She'd rather not do it than jeopardize our relationship and she says she doesn't not want to never talk to him again.
At no point have I insisted or even suggested she not have him as a friend. I'm not her boss. I did tell her what bothered me, I thought she was playing a dangerous game (to the the "typical" 27 year old dude, a drunk chick consistently coming to your house at 1:30am and staying until 4:00am MIGHT want more than just company. Please note, he clearly hasn't done anything because he respects consent, so he is a good person. What I'm saying is mixed messages mostly, and most "typical" guys are going to not overthink this.)
She fully states she doesn't want to leave me. Wouldn't date him if she were single (though she said she might the other day after drinks, but has recanted). Etc etc. Stuff that I'm not concerned about, so the answers leave me unaffected.
I think going back to platonic will be difficult for a "typical" 27 year old guy, but I can admit I don't know. At 27, I was not emotionally prepared for that, that doesn't mean he is/isn't, but it does cross my mind.


4) Did you admit to your wife that you looked through her phone?
Absolutely, and immediately. I felt awful. Still do. This is not who I am. This is not who I act. This is disrespectful. I just needed us to move in any direction. Not justifying it, but my rationalization wasn't to get mad/even, it was to start a healthy conversation. Jury is out on whether it was worth it, but at least we are talking openly about this.

5) And lastly what do you want...is banging her friend (if that even had a chance of happening) really going to make you feel better about her having an emotional relationship with someone else?
I crave physical all the time. Would it make me feel better? No. I like her friend a lot. I think she'd benefit from it, but everything you could say about it being a bad idea is true (is it fair to her to include her in this, etc). So you know, doing it doesn't benefit anyone any more than it does my wife, which should scream "not a good idea". I could do it, and not let it affect me, but I'd feel awful if she couldn't handle it. No idea on that. She's reading the Ethical Slut right now because she's just intersted in knowledge, not pursuing the lifestyle. Will that book change her, no. But it will open her mind a bit. Not to the point that this is a great idea that's for sure.

I want my wife to be happy and fulfilled. If that means physical relationships with other people, I'm happy with accommodating that, but in a safe and ethical way. I don't feel bad about stating that to her or anyone. My safe and ethical is going to be different from other people, but also could be congruent with a lot of people. I am not into to the "don't ask/don't tell" style of things. That to me is cheating. I will not budge on that.

We have an excellent physical relationship, but there are things I'd like to do/try/re-try, that she isn't interested in. Open/poly/non-mon or whatever, would give me a chance to explore my own sexuality a bit, but in a healthy way. I wouldn't cheat on her, not because I'm a great moral person (I started with her while I was trying to get out of my last relationship, that I was still in), but because it isn't congruent with a healthy sustainable marriage.

I now think that consensual monogamy is pretty crazy if you think about it. Why don't we talk about this stuff? We'll talk about what we want on a pizza, but not what we do with ourselves???!? Nutty. I could live without it, but honestly since she brought it up, I feel a lot different about my sexuality and the future of it. So that's a tough battle I'm fighting right now.

 

[GalaGirl]

You seem willing to Open. Could get on with the business of Opening then.

You could spend a lot of time going around in circular conversation about what is "friend behavior" and what is "not friend behavior" but that sucks up a lot of energy and goes nowhere fast.

I happen to agree with you that he's probably more than a friend and she just doesn't want to own that yet. But rather than press that point, and go on a side trip convo? Keep focus and get on with meeting YOUR needs so you can start to feel better.

If she wants to go on telling herself stories... that's her look out.

Your look out? Is your well being. You could also spend a lot of time going around in circular conversation about why she doesn't just talk to you about Opening in the first place.

Or YOU could let that be her problem, take charge, and meet your own need to have Open agreements that you CAN deal with. YOU could just lead the conversation and get on with making the new Open agreements whether she decides to fuck him like a one off or takes him on like a BF.

She wants to think he's a one off. Fine.

Just make your safe and ethical agreements to suit BOTH situations so all bases are covered and you can feel ok enough/safe enough.

http://openingup.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Open-Relationship-Checklist-OU.pdf

http://openingup.net/resources/free-downloads-from-opening-up/

• List who your messy people are that you don't want her dating or fucking -- your boss, your father, etc. She can list hers.
  
• List agreements for childcare, home care, chores, and similar. No dating others and leaving the home partner holding the bag on responsibilities left pending.
  
• List dating money agreements. Because it takes money to date, do sex health labs, birth control, etc.
  
• List time management agreements. Because time is finite.
• List which are hard limits and will NEVER fly with you. (ex: DADT). She can list hers.
  
• List which are soft limits and can change over time as trust is built up. (ex: list whatever those are.) She can list hers.
  
• List how you expect to solve problems/resolve conflicts should any come up.
  
• List your consequences for broken Open agreements. She can list hers.

Then expect her play ball like a responsible grown up.

Sort it out.

Galagirl

 

[FallenAngelina]

(I started with her while I was trying to get out of my last relationship, that I was still in)

Just clarifying: Does this mean that you were cheating on your then-GF with your now-wife?

 

[jsj]

No bullshit from you eh Galagirl? Incredible. World needs more people like you.

I've done the it's this or that, and she's agreed we are in monogamous.

But that little bit of me knows to what extent she'd lie about it, and that's brutal. This is pretty fresh, and to be honest I'm feeling so much better today than I was 2 days ago.

We'll see where this goes.

I probably wouldn't leave her if she cheated on me, because honestly physical doesn't bother me, but at the same time, do I want to not have 100% trust in my partner....absolutely not. A quandry.


She is not owning this situation properly. She admits the lying (it was only 2 times, every other time since then has been open and honest and I 100% trust those situations).


I should expand on lack of opportunity. She asked if she could go hang out with him last Saturday. I said sure. She went over, nothing happened (but the talk). She likes to think she's in control, but someone in control wouldn't do any of these things. Slippery slope.


What I know is, if I was so enamoured/lustful/whatever for someone, I certainly wouldn't be sneaking around like this and playing with fire. I would have 100% have done something by now if I had, because "hey, I'm already cheating anyway, might as well get some."

That's not how I am, but if I had to put it myself in that space, that's probably where I'd be. I don't need to test myself there, I'd probably fail. (drunk at 4am anyway -- sober, I'm good).

This is all a management issue.

Sorry this is a broken record. Y'all have been wonderful. Maybe I'll have some great news in the future.

I'm definitely into pursuing non-monogamy, but not in such a careless/reckless manner, and not that I think anyone would call me a prude about it, but this is my life and I have the right to feel any way I want, and if that doesn't work for a partner they are welcome to leave.

I wonder if there'd be any benefit in her talking to another woman about non-monogamy and what issues they experienced, and methods they employed.

Right now all she knows is her loins are burning for a "kid", she thinks she's in control, she's read 14 chapters of the Ethical Slut, and would prefer a don't ask/don't tell lifestyle.

She's actually questioning what she's missing to make her feel this. Personally I think it's just goldilocks zone, but what do I know?

 

[jsj]

Just clarifying: Does this mean that you were cheating on your then-GF with your now-wife?

Yes this is the case. It was a long time ago, and I regret the way it went down, but she wouldn't break up with me. I broke up with her and she'd just cry non-stop and threaten to hurt herself.

I would handle it differently now, but instead I just agreed to stay with her, because we were living together. I was trying to figure out a way out. That meant moving on without telling her.

A side, sick note. I was actively trying to get her to cheat on me with my friend, who is now her husband. I believe that they did on a specific date (still remember it), and that was before anything with my now wife.

I'm sure that factored into my justification, but to be honest I didn't need it. That relationship was long over.

I'm honest about this now. I was always honest with my wife about it. But clearly it was an immoral act.

I 100% think both of us are totally different now, and I don't believe "once a cheater always a cheater" applies to everyone, because I have moved onto new relationships more than once. When I was naive and not compassionate to my partners. I have a much stronger understanding of everything and a lot more respect for myself and everyone else.

But I understand your point, and it is not lost on me.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm definitely into pursuing non-monogamy, but not in such a careless/reckless manner, and not that I think anyone would call me a prude about it, but this is my life and I have the right to feel any way I want, and if that doesn't work for a partner they are welcome to leave.

You could tell her that.

If you guys Open, you will have to let her deal with her outside relationships as she sees fit. If "playing with fire" is what gets her off about it all? You cannot tell her how to conduct those relationships.

• You CAN focus on how you deal with her and how much you let her behavior affect you by setting YOUR personal boundaries and making her aware of the consequences you will do if she crosses your boundaries.
  
• You CAN change your mind about your consent to participate and your "stayingness."

You could clarify what each of you means by DADT.

• Does she mean it like she's gonna tell you before she next has sex with you if there have been outside partners since the last time you had sex together? A basic yes/no. But she's not gonna tell you when, where, how many times, in what position, etc? That is one thing.

• Does she mean it like she's not gonna tell you jack? Not get her sex health labs done? That is another thing.

Or maybe you just decide to only have condom sex with her. Or only outercourse, or only kissing, or no more sex. Your body and how you share it is up to YOU, not her.

I agree she has some fresh behavior going on. She does not seem to take personal responsibility for her lying behaviors. You seem pretty mad about those and I don't think from the sound of it that she's owned it, apologized, asked for forgiveness, and asked for opportunity to make amends. It's sounding like maybe she wants to sweep some of that under the rug.

You say she's not owning it properly.

• You could spell out what behaviors you expect her to do that you consider "owning it."

In the end? YOU are the one picking her out to be with. If you have chosen a partner who doesn't keep her word, and wimps out on owning it and apologizing when she messes up? You either deal with that happening or you dump the partner so as NOT to deal with it any more.

At this time, you don't want to break up. So that leaves learning how to deal with her behaviors.

ME

FWIW? I do caregiver stuff in turns with other family members. We have to care for our sick people. We have both Alzheimer and BPD relatives who have "truth of the moment." They do not apologize. They do not ask for forgiveness. They do not ask for opportunity to make amends.

• Is it true? Do they mean it in the moment? Sure!
  
• Can they follow through on promises? Do they honestly believe that they can in the moment? Sure!
  
• Do they have object permanence? Nope. Their conditions mess that whole concept up.
  
• Could whatever they said today be lost to the winds tomorrow? Yup.
  
• Do they fuck up? Lordy, yes!

I can either dump them, or learn to deal with them. I deal with it in two ways.

1)Just not believing anything they say so I'm not disappointed later. Meet my own need for sanity and protect my own brain from stress headaches.

• If whatever it was actually comes to pass, I call it a "pleasant bonus."
• If it doesn't happen? I'm not surprised because I don't expect them to keep their Word.
• It's not like I was depending on them for anything. I expect to met my needs myself.

2) When they screw up? I expect them to own it.

Like with a puppy that pees on the rug -- I draw immediate attention to it. I affirm my boundary. Then I spell it out what I expect them to do.

• If they do it. I let it go. Don't hold a grudge. Move on with the day.

• They don't do it? They are looking to pitch a fit and fall in it? I affirm my boundary of "no shenanigans with Galagirl. Have it on your own time. Call me when you are done and ready to get on with the show."

Then I just go outside or go home for the day. I don't come back til it gets done or they are ready to play ball. Sometimes they call that they are ready to clean up the mess, but I have to spell it out all over again because their brains cannot hold details for very long. But they do do it if I spell it out, so rather than fuss about their brains not holding it in, I just get on with spelling it out again.

No point in circle conversations. We want to move it forward, not spin wheels.

I think it is fair they accept my limitations and I accept theirs.​

They used to fight me on this and make a song and dance. ANYTHING to not own it. By now they figured out it is faster to clean it up than to give me song and dance. So they do.

But I also observe with other relatives they will cry crocodile tears and do that whole "poor lil ol me" schtick. Why? Cuz these other relatives are soft targets, that's why. Easy to run right over. I am not so easy.

I just tend to me and my well being, keep me out of the line of fire.

Whenever they go on about whatever? Inside my head I just roll my eyes. I'm not foolish enough to actually believe it. On the outside? I just smile and go "Oh, that's nice" and get on with my day.

Is it a healthy two way relationship? Nope. I accept it as patient relationships.

CONCLUSION

While not the same kind of situation, I see some possible parallels here.

I think you may have to figure out what is acceptable to you or not in this situation with your wife and get on with meeting your own needs yourself.

I think you may have to steer clear of any "song and dance" or any "circle conversations" that are just energy drains. Focus on moving it forward.

You do not have to accept poor treatment of you, but if she's got a certain set of limitations to her abilities? If you see them? Even if she herself does not? You may have to accept her limitations if you plan on being in Open relationship with her.

Just cannot expect a vacuum cleaner to toast bread.

Galagirl

 

[sdguitarguy]

Above all, I want my wife to be happy and fulfilled.

Lots of great commentary above. The only point I would add is that you focus on your own happiness and fulfillment rather than hers.

If you're like me, a caretaker, it feels like you're being selfish. But it makes things much easier and clearer when you understand and communicate your own needs clearly. She seems like she is doing fine taking care of her needs.

 

[kdt26417]

Greetings jsj,
Welcome to our forum. Please feel free to lurk, browse, etc.

I don't have anything new to tell you, other folks have already covered all the bases I could think of and more. Plus, from your description of things it sounds like your head is pretty much in the right place, smart and ethical. I hope you'll keep us posted on how things are going and if I do think of some new ideas I'll let you know.

Sincerely,
Kevin T., "official greeter"

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[Magdlyn]

But I wanted to comment on the below about women having a sexual peak...OK, maybe not, but he says she went off of birth control after being on for a long time. BOOM! Hormonal change.

Hormones play a big part in desire of course! On average, human females, just like other animals, have more desire when we are ovulating. And some women experience more desire as peri-menopause arrives, lessening estrogen and progesterone, while our supply of testosterone comes to the fore. Individual experiences vary, since some women have even lower libidos after menopause, but denying hormonal effects is silly.

Later stages in life can also come along with logistical changes that let a woman more apt to consider sexual freedom and expression. Maybe she was not able to earn much and was dependent as a young person and later her career is established. Maybe her kids are grown up some and less dependent on her. Maybe it's just more logistically feasible to consider alternatives to faithful monogamy if she is so inclined, at a later stage. When I was in my 20's I was so busy scrambling to keep our budget afloat and keep the kids fed, housed, and from killing each other like miniature Spy vs. Spy that I didn't have time to think about what kind of sex I'd like to be having.

Same for me, although I had my first of 3 kids at age 30, and 2 more in fairly quick succession. I had no time or energy for sex, I needed SLEEP.

Certainly, individuals will have individual reasons for increased sexual desire, but the point remains, there is no such thing as biological sexual peak in the mid 30's for women. There is just a confluence of circumstance, opportunity, support and yes, one's physical condition enters in to it as well. Younger women are rarely encouraged to fully explore their sexuality and there's no biological peak in the mid 30s after which comes a decline. Of course individual circumstance will influence this for each individual.

It's important to recognize this because choice is important. A woman doesn't just suddenly develop a taste for sex out of nowhere in her mid 30s. She often has to claim her sexuality in so many ways and that is courageous, not something that she biologically falls into.

You deny the changes that come over a woman when she is pregnant, breastfeeding, carrying, nurturing, cuddling, and expending huge amounts of energy on chasing kids, cleaning up constant messes, trying to make healthy meals, and get everyone into bed every night alive? What is the point of your denial? I could no more "choose" to be highly sexual when my kids were young, or even when I was a teen and 20something, having been born and raised in the repressive 50s and early 60s, than I could have chosen to grow spots like a leopard.

I didn't experience an increase in my libido until 42, not mid 30s. I think that is actually more common. Once the kids were old enough to be safely with babysitters, or for the oldest to babysit the younger ones, and our family bed finally just became mom and dad's bed, and everyone was sleeping through the night, then, and only then did my sex drive go through the roof.

If I had not had kids, maybe I would have had a healthier sexuality earlier? My ex husband also had hangups about sex. He was raised to believe all women never wanted sex, and needed to be tricked into it. So when I showed desire, when I exuded sexuality, once our NRE was past, he actually did things to tamp down my sexuality. If I showed interest in someone else, he'd torture me passive aggressively for daring to look at another. If I got dressed up attractively to go out with him, he wouldn't compliment me. He'd just say, "You look ready to go."

He was raised in north central PA in the 50s and 60s. Oddly though, my current partner is 24 years younger than him, though raised in western NY state near where my ex grew up. She was also raised with the idea women hated men and only put up with them, didn't actually ever love or desire them.

 

[jsj]

Great responses from everyone, much appreciated.

So on Wednesday, wife came back to the table and suggested maybe "we" weren't ready for that kind of relationship. Definitely true that we are not on the same page, so this is a good idea. We explicitly agreed that for the time being we are going to practice conscious monogamy, until a time when it feels right. What is a guy to do? Such a flip flop. But in the words of Walter Sobchak, "At least it's an ethos."

At any rate, had some great talks, and she identified a whole pile of things that she recognizes as why I am the best partner for her. Was great to hear, even I knew them all. Hearing stuff like that from your partner is always a confidence booster.

I don't think we're even near out of the woods quite yet, and this will most definitely be revisited. She's focusing her energy on finding out what she feels is missing in our relationship and why that this happened. I don't personally think anything is missing (except for a lack of honest, but that's been fixed), but reflection is never a bad thing. The thing is that she feels bad for feeling this way, when I have no problem with the feeling, just the execution. When we first started talking about this, she said "husbands and wives don't talk like this", which is so far removed from the paradigm we're discussing. So complicated. I suppose I do not envy that struggle.

I was getting dangerously close to having to make a decision I didn't want to make based on the circumstances, so this will have to do I suppose.

I decided I needed a break, and bought a ticket to LA, because hey, why not?

The biggest issue I'm going to have is some trust, because her DADT involves doing and not talking about it. I admit a significant amount of my anxiety is just paranoia (might be all). I'm not a basket case on this, but I don't typically find myself wondering "what if..." on this kind of thing with her. oh well.

I can't police it. Don't want to. I need to learn to trust her when she says X, even if Y was where it seemed to be going.

I explicitly asked about our relationship status, and posed a few questions to test her convictions, and I suppose they were consistent with what she was communicating. That's a relief!

Life is fun.

Well here's hoping LA is fun, never been. Currently searching air bnb for an appropriate place to crash.

Thanks again to everyone being honest and caring and awesome.

 

[Spork]

No problem at all, OP...man I feel sorry for you having a wife who seems to want to keep things on the DL from you, that sucks. I mean, she is lucky enough to have a husband who is openminded to the notion that she might need things that he doesn't have in his particular human toolbox/skillset (because hey, we're all different and things)...but no, not enough to have that and make respectful choices there, got to try and hide stuff. As though being sneaky is her kink. Well. That's just...not nice.

Sorry man. Hope it all works out in the long run and I hope you enjoy your trip. Good on both of you for your communication, and I hope she lives up to her word.

....

Magdlyn, I suspect that maybe FallenAngelina was trying to establish the notion that there is not some absolute point nearing the end of fertility which, absent all other factors and simply based on *ding! You've arrived!* we women suddenly get all horny, like a 16-20 year old boy.

Well, I can agree sort of maybe. Perhaps it's been debunked by science, though no one asked me, so as with all stats you get online from the "science" people I raise one eyebrow on its absolute truthiness.

But... It remains that so very often in the lives of woman after woman that a confluence of factors comes together in the 30's to 40's where suddenly they want to stand up and claim some selfish happiness, some sexual enjoyment, to stand for themselves instead of putting themselves second, or last, or not in the ranking of priorities at all. From hormone changes, to mental maturity, to kids growing up, etc. I mention mental maturity because I really feel, at age 37, that I didn't know myself very well in my 20's. I feel, in my 30's, like my brain is fully "cooked" and I've lived some and gained some wisdom...I've seen some loved ones die, too...and you finally reach a point where life is just too short to sacrifice happiness for duty forever. There has to be a balance between personal enjoyment, and meeting obligations, and I for one am no longer willing to martyr myself. I feel that my life is a precious gift and as much as I'm obligated to my kids, to give them the best start I can, I'm also obligated to myself, and to leave something behind (art, writing, etc) to show that hey...Spork was here!

 

[GalaGirl]

Ok, sounds like for now you two will remain Closed and practice monogamy while she works on herself.

I think it is at least partially answered here:

She's focusing her energy on finding out what she feels is missing in our relationship and why that this happened.

When we first started talking about this, she said "husbands and wives don't talk like this"

Sounds like she doesn't feel comfortable just telling you this stuff and talking it out in the first place. Which is what you prefer -- you don't have a problem with the feelings. You have a problem with the execution. You want her to ask for your CONSENT to Open first, not go off and cheat on Closed agreements.

I don't know why she thinks husbands and wives don't talk like this. Presumably one's spouse is one's closest person -- why NOT tell them what's going on and that she thinks something is missing? Rather than break agreements and go try to fill it with a cheating partner?

Unless she's being dishonest with herself and with you. And the need that needs filling is the "high." The thrill of an affair, risk of getting caught, getting away with it (not nice -- but it IS an adrenalin high stimulus.)

If that is what she's after, I doubt she's going to say "I am missing something. I am missing cheating thrill highs. Can I have your consent to chase them?" Because it takes away from the cheating thrill.

I guess you could ask her if that's the need she's trying to fill -- thrills/stimulus. Maybe you can redirect her to other activities -- zip lining, sky diving, roller coasters, and so on -- that do NOT break agreements but do provide some exciting stimulus?

If it is some other need, making circling them off this need inventory helps her to articulate what is missing?

Galagirl