As we have been together longer, we lost the need for too many people outside of our relationship. We share most everything. We are together evevery chance we get, sometimes not talking even. Soon we will be working together and she is looking forward to that as I am... especially if she wears more sundresses to work
My fiance's best friend
- Thread starter Self
- Start date
Re: best friends on the messy list ... sounds like just the opposite of what Snowbunny has told me; namely, that if I were to find an additional partner, Snowbunny would prefer that it be someone close to her. She even indicated that (either of) her sisters would be ideal in that role. [shrug] Different strokes.
Is Snowbunny an ex-Mormon too?
Thank you. All of your advice was excellent. I wish I had read it before having the earlier conversations.
Yes, you are right that best friend, let's call her Annie, is just the lens through which I discovered and identified something in myself. But I'm also deeply in love with her. Can't stop thinking about her, pit of the stomache in love. Off and on, Going on at least a year now.
That said, fiancé-now-wife, let's call her Joy, is still the face I want to wake up to, take care of, love, protect, provide for, spend my life with, etc.
I've come to the realization that I may only get to have a physical relationship with my wife, but she understands that I love Annie too.
I don't think she totally understands, or wants to understand; that in a perfect world I would love and provide and celebrate love and life with both of them as completely as I am capable of.
But maybe we will get there someday.
Sometimes she says weird things out of the blue that make me think she gets it fully somewhere inside, but i never know what to make of them.
I openly tell them both I love them, and Joy is fine with that.
In private moments on special occasions Annie and I tell each other we love each other. It feels amazing. I don't know know what that means.
Most of the time I feel pretty in control of the whole thing, and content. Sometimes, though, I feel like I want to burst.
like an oyster with a pebble inside, only I don't know if I'm making a smooth beautiful pearl from constraining my love for Annie, or if it's just a jagged stone tearing me up inside.
I'm sorry if I'm just rambling, I just need to get some of this out today.
Better than telling Annie I'm in love with her, or sending vaguely flirty emojis all day....
Hmmm... Annie has been dating off and on the whole time. Including some open/poly relationships, some better, some worse. Most worse I guess. One had a lot of rules and seemed un satisfying. The other was more like an elaborate justification for her bf to not use any self control.
I definitely want to avoid that.
I'm just admitting that I am very capable of loving many people. That's a good thing, right? With women, it does seem to go almost hand in hand with sexual attraction, but I love men too, in a similar exciting intimate way, just without the romantic sexual element. Actually, and this is the first time I've really examined this idea, I'm "attracted" to atleast as many men right now as women. I just don't want to have sex with them.
I'm really working on expanding my heart lately through practice and meditation and study. It's definitely working, and I feel more whole and complete for it, more attractive, more able to love, more open, more honest. But it often kind of seems at odds with my marriage.
Which to be honest, more often seems like a paternal/parental relationship. :/
Just venting....
Everyone needs bad examples, right? How not to do something, even with the best of intentions? I think I'm that guy. Your welcome.
So still newly! married to Joy but head over heels for Annie, my life continues...
I tried a few months before the wedding, but when it looked like shit was going to hit the fan I chickened out. I did say I loved Annie, but when pressed I described it as an intimate friend love, which is a partial truth.
But that came up yesterday ! And shit is basically just hanging in the air here. I'm reading radical honesty to try to do a better job communicating. I'm realizing I've been pretty poor up to this point . I'm trying to get a grip and take responsibility here. But I think it's going to rocky
But that came up yesterday ! And shit is basically just hanging in the air here. I'm reading radical honesty to try to do a better job communicating. I'm realizing I've been pretty poor up to this point . I'm trying to get a grip and take responsibility here. But I think it's going to rocky
Well it's all out now! After lots of tears, we made a little progress. No one is talking about divorce yet. So that's good. I guess it went about how I would expect. She did ask if I thought about annie when we had sex. I answered honestly (sometimes) and that really hurt her. I'm sorry she feels like I betrayed her with that. I'm not sure if that's fair, I've never asked what she thinks about. She has been sort of sexually controlling in the past. Sometimes Telling me not to masturbate because she wanted it all for herself.
That's off topic...
She was cautiously interested in a threesome, but not with Annie. But she also said she had masturbated to a fantasy of the three of us a long time ago... So there's that.
I feel better, but I also feel like a selfish asshole. I'm not asking for anything, I just want to be radically honest, and build on that. It's a new idea for me.
Out in the light now, blinking and feeling kinda naked.
That's off topic...
She was cautiously interested in a threesome, but not with Annie. But she also said she had masturbated to a fantasy of the three of us a long time ago... So there's that.
I feel better, but I also feel like a selfish asshole. I'm not asking for anything, I just want to be radically honest, and build on that. It's a new idea for me.
Out in the light now, blinking and feeling kinda naked.
You told her the truth, which I think is the right thing to do. Possibly you can talk about it some more, maybe not right away but sometime.
I can't tell how strongly opposed Joy is to poly yet. It's possible she'll never say yes to it, and then you'll have to decide what to do.
I can't tell how strongly opposed Joy is to poly yet. It's possible she'll never say yes to it, and then you'll have to decide what to do.
GreenAcres
New member
I think it's worth noting that "radical honesty" doesn't mean saying absolutely everything in your head, and doesn't mean disregarding people's feelings to make yourself feel better. Consider your motives before speaking--being honest to assuage your own conscience isn't always a reason to say something particular.. There are many other options than saying "yes, I think about your BFF when I have sex with you," that are still honest, and will keep the conversation on-track. When asked that question, you could have honestly said "That kind of question isn't honest communication. It's a verbal and emotional trap, a form of manipulation, because you do not really want a discussion about it. There is one right answer that you have scripted out in your head. If your need is to know I am present during our sexual encounters, that I enjoy our sex, and that I value it as special, the answer is yes. If you want to discuss sexual fantasies, we can do that at another time." Also, if you find that you aren't engaged during sex, telling get you think about get best friend I'd taking the onus off of you to be an engaged lover, and putting it onto her, which isn't useful and is probably hurtful. The more honest answer is that you aren't present and engaged when you're with her, which is a problem whether or not you're poly.
Her question was unfair, and designed to elicit a pre-scripted response in order for you to not "fail" a "test." That is manipulative. But, frankly, she probably has no idea she's doing it, because this kind of dishonest communication is ingrained in our culture (as much as I hate to say it, especially, I find, in culture surrounding women). Rather than give in to that, break the script, and work toward *actual* honest communication, rather than blunt-but-pointlessly-hurtful communication that isn't addressing the issues.
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Thank you GA, yes, that all makes sense. At that point in the conversation ( which has taken 2 days and most of both nights now, with lots of ups and downs), I was exhausted, and while a diplomatic answer like yours would have been better, she might have reacted as angrily to the evasion as to the truth. I think I did ask her not to pursue that line of questioning, but she was adamant.
Things are getting better. We had two really bad nights of heartbreak and tears, but it's always better in the day when she can talk about it, I think she's emotionally exhausted ( I know I am) , but we are on the same page now, and this morning she told Annie I had told her I was in love with her. But now instead of her resenting Annie and feeling inadequate, which was yesterday, they are friends again and have spent all morning together walking Annie's dog. Joy is amazing! And Annie and I love her so much. We keep telling her and I think she feels it. Joy is also definitely interested in a threesome in the future, not with Annie, which is fine. That's just incredibly exciting!
Thank you again to you wonderful people for encouraging and inspiring me!
I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my chest.
GreenAcres
New member
I am glad it's going better for you, I hope that continues.
I think you missed what I was saying, however. I wasn't suggesting evasion, I was suggesting honest communication and enforcing boundaries. Again, radical honesty is a route to better, honest communication, not a route to not taking responsibility for actions, words, or deeds. Those two things get mistaken a lot, because blurting is easier. I encourage you to keep exploring better communication, as well as how to be present and engaged with the person you are with at a given moment, both with Joy and just in general, because you're going to need it if you're going to be a successful hinge. Your situation is particularly precarious in that it has a LOT of baggage, and even more "risk" than normal if things go wrong; so, don't just fall back on excuses instead of communication. If you're too emotionally exhausted to have good communication, the honest answer is to say *that.* And schedule a time for a more rested, reasonable conversation.
Trust me, been there, done that. It's easy to say "well, but that turned out okay," and keep on with poor communication, but that will always come back to bite you in the butt at a later time, whether it's a return of the old conversation or a new issue. You've seemingly got a break in the drama, so now is a good time to take some space and evaluate how you'll be a good partner, and a good hinge (not the same thing).
I think you missed what I was saying, however. I wasn't suggesting evasion, I was suggesting honest communication and enforcing boundaries. Again, radical honesty is a route to better, honest communication, not a route to not taking responsibility for actions, words, or deeds. Those two things get mistaken a lot, because blurting is easier. I encourage you to keep exploring better communication, as well as how to be present and engaged with the person you are with at a given moment, both with Joy and just in general, because you're going to need it if you're going to be a successful hinge. Your situation is particularly precarious in that it has a LOT of baggage, and even more "risk" than normal if things go wrong; so, don't just fall back on excuses instead of communication. If you're too emotionally exhausted to have good communication, the honest answer is to say *that.* And schedule a time for a more rested, reasonable conversation.
Trust me, been there, done that. It's easy to say "well, but that turned out okay," and keep on with poor communication, but that will always come back to bite you in the butt at a later time, whether it's a return of the old conversation or a new issue. You've seemingly got a break in the drama, so now is a good time to take some space and evaluate how you'll be a good partner, and a good hinge (not the same thing).
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SchrodingersCat
Active member
GreenAcres, is there somewhere we can look up a formal definition and how-to guide for the type of "radical honesty" you're describing? Without instructions, I don't know how anyone could be expected to follow your advice to do "radical honesty" and not blurt out everything in their head, since that's exactly what I think of when I hear the term "radical honesty" and frankly, it's why I think "radical honesty" is bullshit. The only thing I can find online is this and it doesn't say anything about techniques to go about it in a way that's not just blurting out your incoherent thoughts, which is my understanding of "direct, complete" and "what you think." I'm sure there's more to it, but just throwing buzz words around doesn't give people any tools to do it effectively and without hurting people.
I prefer non-violent communication. It teaches people to focus on their needs and feelings, and not share their thoughts which are usually red herrings. Thoughts give you an inner clue to your feelings and needs, but they're not direct translations and require a lot of self-inspection to get to the core issues. See https://www.cnvc.org/ for more info, and here's a a free instruction guide and another free information booklet.
You can be honest and enforce boundaries while still evading the direct question. "Do you think of other girls when you fuck me" has two possible answers: yes or no. Anything else, no matter how honest and practical, is an evasion of the direct question. Your response was a sophisticated wording of "I refuse to answer that." And when someone's playing the manipulation game, refusing to answer the question is answering the question.
I prefer non-violent communication. It teaches people to focus on their needs and feelings, and not share their thoughts which are usually red herrings. Thoughts give you an inner clue to your feelings and needs, but they're not direct translations and require a lot of self-inspection to get to the core issues. See https://www.cnvc.org/ for more info, and here's a a free instruction guide and another free information booklet.
You can be honest and enforce boundaries while still evading the direct question. "Do you think of other girls when you fuck me" has two possible answers: yes or no. Anything else, no matter how honest and practical, is an evasion of the direct question. Your response was a sophisticated wording of "I refuse to answer that." And when someone's playing the manipulation game, refusing to answer the question is answering the question.
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Googling "radical honesty" leads to the official Radical Honesty website, which doesn't have a huge amount of information about the theory (it's mostly "buy our books and attend our workshops"), but the basis seems to be that lying causes stress and telling the entire truth without holding back makes everything better.
There's also one point in the FAQ where the person who developed the technique appears to advocate getting pissed off at people who don't like the truth you tell them or the way you tell it, and where he advocates confronting people about things that might have happened years or even decades ago and telling them how you feel about it.
So yeah... reading that, I'm not seeing how that doesn't equate to "say whatever's on your mind as long as it's true, and who cares what the other person thinks." Hopefully GA will clarify.
There's also one point in the FAQ where the person who developed the technique appears to advocate getting pissed off at people who don't like the truth you tell them or the way you tell it, and where he advocates confronting people about things that might have happened years or even decades ago and telling them how you feel about it.
So yeah... reading that, I'm not seeing how that doesn't equate to "say whatever's on your mind as long as it's true, and who cares what the other person thinks." Hopefully GA will clarify.