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Worried2ndary

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I have two partners - my husband and my GF (I'm her secondary and she's mine). I will try to make this as non-complicated as possible. There are three major players in the issue I'm trying to help with - my GF, her H, and her H's GF. I tried coming up with good labels but I couldn't do it, so just to be as clear as possible: GF is _my_ partner, H is _her_ husband, and HGF is her H's GF. Clear as mud, right?

GF and H were in a triad with HGF, but their triad broke up over a year ago when HGF demanded equal rights to the H and refused to be a secondary anymore (including demanding the right to have kids with him, which, no. Not okay.)

Ever since the triad's breakup, H did not want to break up his relationship with either of his partners from the triad, and has been delaying any decisions about any of HGF's demands. He has also been delaying any decisions that GF has asked him to make, and has not been supportive of her issues with HGF.

H has refused to promise to not have children with HGF, and he has dragged his feet about resolving the problem because he wants to be with both GF and HGF, and he wants things to go back to the way they were, which is not possible due to HGF's behavior, which has totally alienated GF. (HGF is abusive, but H will not admit it; currently HGF's abuse is focused on GF but since it happens when H is not home, H never sees it. I've witnessed it, but as GF's partner, my testimony is suspect because yes, I'm biased in GF's favor.)

In the meantime, HGF has continued to live in the same house with GF and H. So for the last year and more, GF has had to live with someone who is not only her ex, but an ex who is bitter and vindictive and doing her best to break up GF's marriage and get GF's status with H.

GF finally put her foot down about a lot of this stuff in a therapy session tonight, and I got a text from GF right after it was supposed to be over that H is leaving her and she's falling apart. We live quite a distance apart, so I can't just run over there and help her. I just heard from her and she's with a friend, but I admit I'm worried. Not for her safety anymore, but because....

I do not know how to be supportive in this situation. I want GF to be safe and supported, but I am so angry with H and HGF that I can't see straight. I have literally nowhere to go to vent about this, because of the need for anonymity, so I chose here (since nobody here will know who I am and I can use a pseudonym). I also worry that I might be the cause of GF putting her foot down; that it's my fault somehow, because I've been encouraging her to stand up for her rights and for herself. If I had been in the same situation I would have had a nervous breakdown long since.

I could just use some help helping her, and help dealing with the guilt I'm feeling.
 
Worried2ndary said:
I could just use some help helping her, and help dealing with the guilt I'm feeling.
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Hello and welcome, I hope you find the support that you need here. I don't know that you can do much beyond being a shoulder to cry on at this point. Ultimately, unfortunately, you can DO or SAY anything that changes ANYthing about someone's relationship with someone else...that is for THEM to figure out.

As to your guilt, that is something, that you CAN address. Encouraging someone to stand up for themselves and "put their foot down" is not bad advise. If you had read about the same situation here and not been a direct participant, would you not have given the same advise? So...you vent here and try to give the most objective advisc that you can. When something hits too close to home, you acknowledge it and move on.

From your post, it seems as though the situation HAD to implode at some point...Did your "advice" precipitate that at this particular time? Maybe. But your GF is (presumably) a grown-ass woman. She had the capacity to weigh your advice and decide to act on it (or not).

MY advice (For What It's Worth)...let the chips fall where they will. You cannot control anyone's responses. Be as fair and objective as you can. Provide your (measured) opinion when asked for it and otherwise just provide a sympathetic ear.

PS. I have plenty of opinions about the other players in your scenario and what they COULD do, but they are not the one's here asking for advice!
 
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I am sorry you deal in this worry.

Please see your own doctor/counselor if you need help doing your own self care and help sorting the anger and guilt.

(HGF is abusive, but H will not admit it; currently HGF's abuse is focused on GF but since it happens when H is not home, H never sees it. I've witnessed it, but as GF's partner, my testimony is suspect because yes, I'm biased in GF's favor.)
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Asking for a coprimary model is not abusive but if you witness more going on that IS abuse? NOBODY deserves abuse. Keep that in mind. Remember it is a GOOD thing GF finally hit her limit and wants to LEAVE abuse.

In the end, she makes her OWN choices. Keep that in mind too. You could talk til you were blue in the face, and she could still choose to stay.

In the middle of this page, there are articles for "How to support female victims of intimate partner abuse"

http://speakoutloud.net/articles

Keep encouraging her to do what is best for her own health and to keep working with her counselor. Don't be surprised if she ping pongs between stages. Also don't burn too many bridges in the event her husband wakes up and he and GF get back together and try to heal from the HGF experience.

From a distance, do what comforting things you can.

http://goodlifezen.com/21-ways-to-comfort-a-friend-in-crisis/

Even small kind things like mailing her care packages so she knows you are thinking of her. A new toothbrush and washcloth and soap in her favorite color so while she's staying with the friend she has things of her own? A gift card so she can buy some clothes?

Keep doing what you are doing -- comfort in, kvetch out.

Galagirl
 
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Just want to say so far you are doing great. You gave excellent advice to GF. That might be more obvious to us than it is to you, at the moment. As was said above, it was bound to happen eventually, or GF would be stuck in a horrible relationship, which is not good.

I have LDRs so I know how frustrating it is to not be able to be there physically when a partner is going through a rough time. The best you can do is be supportive and sympathetic.
 
It's very tough when a marriage ends, I know that from experience. Your GF is in a raw emotional state and needs to just ride the waves of feelings as they come up.

H obviously sees value in his relationship with HGF, and really, there is nothing anyone can do about it. In your eyes, she was abusive and wanting things that it wasn't her place to want, but it would seem that they don't see it that way.

Do you consider her behavior abusive mostly because she was vocal and adamant about not wanting to be second fiddle to his wife? There is absolutely nothing wrong with a girlfriend of a married poly man wanting equally respectful treatment and allotment of his time as his wife gets. She is a human being, and loves him, too. Personally I wouldn't want to be treated as if I was less important and had less rights than anyone else.

Yet, you describe her wants as demands, as if she was way out of line for asking. All a matter of perspective.

Think about it -- in actuality, it was extremely generous of HGF to defer to the wife by asking for permission to get pregnant. It is her body, after all, and no one can tell a woman what she can or cannot do with her own body! She could have just gotten pregnant anytime she wanted - it's not up to anyone else whether she does or not, least of all your GF. But instead she asked. And waited and waited and waited for something she really wants. I'd say that's rather patient of her.

IMHO, things were just hanging in limbo until the inevitable implosion, created not by you nor by HGF, but by the unfair parameters everyone was expected to stay within.

But you want to know how you can comfort your GF. So, if I were you, I'd do my best to let go of the harsh criticism and blaming of the HGF and H, and just be there for your GF, allowing her space to feel what she feels, but without adding fuel to the fire by pointing fingers (because there are always two sides to very story). Be as neutral as you can be.
 
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You have the right to be concerned for you girlfriend, but her relationship with her husband and her exgirlfriend really aren't any of your business. HGF has every right to speak up for her rights as well, and it really isn't any different for her than it is for your GF.

It can be terribly painful when something like this happens, but relationships do change over time and just because someone starts as a secondary doesn't mean they and their relationship are always going to be that way. Relationships and people change over time--it's just a fact of life.
 
Sorry for the double post--I wanted to add more to my previous one but it won't let me edit for some reason.

Nycindie is very, very right to point out that HGF has the right to make her wishes known, as does H. H was put in an untenable position in which he was being pulled in two directions, and I don't envy him one bit. No one should have the right to control another person's life--it's just as bad as being forced to alter one's sexual orientation or gender, purely based on that third party's feeling of what is or is not okay.

I hate the terms primary and secondary because it confers a lesser value to the "secondary" relationship. They are certainly going to be different, but not of lesser value to those parties involved.

And as for whether a person is abusive or not, just remember there are two sides to every story. No one ever wants to paint themselves as a villain, but from HGF's point of view maybe GF's attempts to rob her of her personal autonomy within her relationship is...well...wrong.
 
Hi Worried2ndary,

Sorry you are going through such a stressful time. It sounds like a really messy situation, and I'm sure it is frustrating for you to be living so far away from your GF at this time.

As others have indicated, your options are rather limited here. About the best thing you can do for your GF is be a listening ear ... without injecting your own opinion unless she specifically asks you to do so. I think mainly the thing to do is just to reaffirm to her that you love and support her. Sending her care packages is a cool idea too.

I would also encourage you to keep on posting here on this forum, so that you can get updated support and advice. Right now we don't know a lot of the details of what has happened, and knowing more details could make a difference in what we'd say.

Regardless, I hope things work out for you, and for your GF.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
There is a lot going on here. And a lot of background we don't know.

Your gf was in a triad that went bad, as most of them do. We don't know how long the happy triad went on before it went down the tubes. We don't know which woman fell out of love first... or never was in love.

We don't know how long the triad "dated" before choosing to move the GF in... and if the move gave her the idea she was now a co-primary, not a mere secondary.

We do not know if the original couple, your gf and her h, have children, how much of a history they have, what their ages are, whether your gf has a career and enough money to live on now that her h is leaving her. Or threatening to. And where will HGF go? I assume they'd move out together?

We also do not know how long you and your gf have been together. Did she enter into a relationship with you before, during, or after the triad formation and dissolution? Just how much time has gone by here, how much history do you all have?

IMO, whatever the answers to these questions, things are coming to a head. If H and his GF move out, the "abuse" your gf has suffered will be lessened, if not ended. That is good.

If your gf's H has fully chosen his GF over his wife, at least it's a definite break. (Sometimes people change and marriages end, even without another lover in the mix. Divorce sucks, but health and happiness can follow.) Then your gf is free to rebuild her life without the strain of living with her ex lover who is her H's lover. That sounds like a good thing. If he already has kids with your gf, he will be obligated to support them, share custody, etc., while perhaps planning more kids with his gf. I hope he's up to that job!

If your gf's H has been completely swept up in the NRE of it all, with little rational thought, but merely going with his romantic feelings, and his lust for her new(er) partner, then he's not much of a man to do poly with, and she is well rid of him. If he leaves his family home and comforts and has to start paying for an apartment elsewhere with his "cowgirl" gf, he might start to get some real doses of reality separate from the sexy illusory romance of the original triad. On the one hand, 2 hot women that I love, in bed with me, pleasuring me. On the other (new) hand, I abandoned my wife, and my new gf wants kids (spit up, crying, diapers, sleepless nights, less time to shower or have romantic dates, no energy for sex, etc.)
 
Worried2ndary said:
HGF demanded equal rights to the H and refused to be a secondary anymore (including demanding the right to have kids with him, which, no. Not okay.)
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Pesky secondaries. They do get out of hand sometimes and start thinking they're real people in real relationships.

Did GF also 'demand' to be treated like a real person by H, or did she just expect it? If poly is really about relationships, why is it 'no. Not okay' to want a child with the man you're in a relationship with?

...[H] has not been supportive of her issues with HGF.

....(HGF is abusive, but H will not admit it; currently HGF's abuse is focused on GF but since it happens when H is not home, H never sees it. I've witnessed it, but as GF's partner, my testimony is suspect because yes, I'm biased in GF's favor.)
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Unfortunately, the word 'abusive' has been, pardon the choice of words, abused greatly in recent years. What kind of abuse are we talking about?
*Burning GF with cigarettes, locking her in closets all day, beating her?
*Tearing down her character unjustly, spreading untrue stories behind her back, alienating all her friends from her?
*Moving things around the house and messing with light switches and making disturbing phone calls to terrify her and make her think she's losing her mind?​
Or is she trying to talk to her or standing by her desire to have a child and stay in a relationship with someone who clearly also wants to be with her?

So for the last year and more, GF has had to live with someone who is not only her ex, but an ex who is bitter and vindictive and doing her best to break up GF's marriage and get GF's status with H.
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Is it possible HGF is on a forum somewhere getting advice on living with an ex who is bitter and vindictive and doing her best to break up her relationship with H?

I could just use some help helping her, and help dealing with the guilt I'm feeling.
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My suggestion would be to help GF see that HGF is a human being who does not deserve to be treated like a 'secondary' with lesser rights and status.

FWIW...obviously I don't know the situation. Maybe HGF really is doing awful, terrible things to GF. However, your opening words are screaming couple privilege. I'm sure some things are being said about me, too, by at least the wife of my ex-boyfriend, because I had the gall to believe him when he said it would be like any relationship, and I would be treated like any girlfriend. She became jealous and insecure and started playing games to make sure I knew I was just a toy, not a real person, not a real girlfriend, not worthy of real respect.

Sorry, no, I'm not a mere toy to sedate and entertain him while she's out with other men. Neither is HGF.
 
If you want to jump on the kid thing, that is a huge issue. I'd be concerned about it like she worded it. The law is not in her favor and in some states she'd probably have to pay child support if this happens while they're still married, or not finished with a divorce.
She'd legally be pushed out. And honestly it sounds like the husband dismissed her after saying he wasn't going to refuse having no kids with his girlfriend. Granted there is a slight hierarchy feel to it, how does one make that quick a decision on kids when you have a wife and a GF? Sure she reacted badly to that but who the fuck wouldn't?

That's probably why abuse is being applied to everything else whether it covers it or not. Because the husband is shutting her out about it. That is terribly suspicious and if that was me my first thought would be: "What did she say to him?". Especially if she was made to think they were having kids or they were childfree (Idk, just covering all bases), but all of a sudden the tables are turning and he blows off having a discussion. So yeah, what did she say to him?
He already gave his answer, and pretty much threw this weight around: "You're either good with that or goodbye". Which is what happened.

I too would like some examples of the shit-stirring from the husband's GF, before I say anything else.
 
It's been a while--I hope Worried2ndary and their loved ones are doing okay.

It's always tough when something like this happens, so whatever the outcome is (for whatever reason) I'm sending good energy your way.
 
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