Navigating lying, baggage, and love

Pimvanloen

New member
Dear people,

Let's start off with: I wouldn't call myself or my relationship polyamorous at the moment, but it's definitely a monogamish/monogamish-curious one. I hope no one is offended by my posting here - but so far I have not found any community (not in real life and not online) that has so many people who I resonate with, who are able to look at relationships outside of compulsory monogamy and toxic standards, and that are so eloquent in their responses and emotional maturity. All of these things, I really need right now.

Some time ago, I wrote this post, and even though many things are still part of my baggage (attachment trauma, yadi yadi yada), I must say that me (and my partner) have come a pretty long way. But it wasn't without trouble. I hope I can summarise it for you in an understandable way:

I met a pretty unique person some time ago. We started out poly (he had another partner back then, who he was in a relationship with but didn't want to be. Unfortunately, because of a pretty abusive situation, he had to stay in that relationship for quite a while), but transferred to monogamy. After a year of us seeing each other, my attachment fears started to come up (referring to the same post again). I had only been in quite short relationships up until that point (one or two years, until NRE runs out apparently) and had... a shit ton to learn. And I still do - NRE is a pretty strong thing. However, I found out that my partner was very similar, which gave rise to a BUNCH of anxiety. I was absolutely sure (because of my parent's relationship as well) that he would leave me for someone. I worked on it in therapy, and though I'm still not over yet, I'm slowly becoming better at it.

Fast forward: something really traumatic happened to him (a war in his home country) and he started to fall into his old, toxic patterns. Even though we were monogamous at the time (or monogamish; having threesomes was one of our big wishes), he started to become really, really horny about many people. He developed crushes. He was running away from his bad feelings by diving into sexuality. I guess that's his baggage. After weeks of struggling with this, he kissed someone. Turns out: he felt extremely guilty, bad, and wasn't giving him anything good. He told me after two months (he was scared to lose me and was sure he did not want to pursue it more), and the dishonesty was immensely triggering for me. My avoidant tendencies started to come up (my attachment is disorganized), and I wanted to kiss someone too (I know, pretty childish, but it was hard). After months of healing and conversations, and him being absolutely sure he did not want to go this old pathway again, we started to become better. I did not believe in this toxic idea of "once a cheater, always a cheater", and understood his struggles. I desperately wanted to break free from society's harsh standards for relationships.

However, one week ago, something similar happened. It was not "cheating" in a classic sense, and he definitely does not see it that way. But I feel it the same.
He breached a pretty big boundary by going into my drive to find nude photos of a girl he wanted to fantasize about (I shot them, I am a nude photographer). There's two things that really hurt me about this:
1. He lied to me, and broke my trust and privacy - it was my folder, after all
2. He wanted to have the fantasy about this girl and do something secretive, and it hurts my self esteem.

Now, I know what it means to have boundaries, but have absolutely zero idea what to do if they are crossed. Do you break up, despite the great things that you share? I am starting to doubt this relationship. That's a scary thing.

A second question that I have, is whether the boundary number 2 that I just described, can be a boundary at all. I have this great divide within myself that I do believe in some form of "non-normative" relationship, one that is driven by fantasies, adventure, etc. That doesn't have security and absolute monogamy as a priority. But boy, does it hurt when you find out someone is fantasizing about someone else this way. How would you deal with that?

Besides these two things, he has been great. He gives a lot, he loves to spend time. He genuinely loves me. He has been one of the sweetest lovers I ever had (and then very randomly, he does this very unsweet thing). That's what makes this all the more confusing. But my trust in his ability to be honest with me... has grown smaller. Even though it feels like a very hypocritical thing, as I have trouble with that as well (though, no cheating on my part).

Love,
Pim
 
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Welcome back. Of course you can post here, we're happy to lend our perspective.

1. I trust you have now passworded your client file since he breached their right to privacy even over and above yours (in my opinion).

As to what else to do when a boundary is breached... that is something you need to agree *with yourself* when you set the boundary. "Don't look in my work folder" is a rule. The rule was broken, not a boundary. Boundaries are about the way you allow people to treat you. If someone treats you in a way you don't like (crosses your boundary) then you can do anything from speak up and let them know you don't like that to never seeing them again. It rather depends on how involved you are with them at the time and how you will allow yourself to be treated in the future. Is this something you feel you need to leave your partner over, or will smaller changes do the job?

2. Is the issue here for you that he had a private masturbation session to *a* nude photo or to *your* client's nude photo? It sounds like you are more upset that he masturbated without including you. That he thought about someone else without telling you.

First up, it is completely normal for couples to masturbate without each other, thinking about whatever they wish. This isn't a slight against you. The secret was that he was using your client file for the purpose. I'm pretty sure you're going to keep that secret from your client...

You are experiencing hurt feelings because somehow you found out what he did. Your trust was breached, professionally, but moreover I suspect you are having a bunch of thoughts around "why did he seek out those photos, why couldn't he think about me, why am I not enough?" These are very common thoughts if you are in the monogamous mindset wherein couples should be so completely entangled with each other that they are effectively one identity. This is still pretty common to the point that (celebrity) couple's names get mashed up into one word. Media perpetrates the notion of a healthy relationship being one where the couple in question only have eyes for each other. The reality is, healthy relationships don't diminish a person's autonomy/control a person's sexuality to the point that they can't masturbate. John is still John and Jane is still Jane, both have privacy without calling it secrecy. Furthermore, the John + Jane relationship is defined by what John and Jane want, not by societal/religious expectations.

I'd suggest having a frank discussion with your partner about both of you desires regarding private masturbation. Are you so shaken by him doing so because you don't? (You don't need to answer that here, just food for thought). What level of self awareness do you have around your own sexuality? You wrote in your other thread that these shared threesome fantasies excite but also scare you.

So, very recently, we developed some fantasies that both turn me on and hurt me at the same time (?!). We talk about secret situations in which we're having a threesome, and even more recently we talked about him making love with someone else, and I helped this fantasy (meaning, I talked about it with him, turning him on).

This is also common enough that there are descriptors for it. It may be time for a little adult sex ed here. Especially if you haven't delved deeply into it before and what you are experiencing is perturbing you.

So, bottom line is, somehow you caught him fantasising about someone else without you and this challenged a core belief you hold about how coupledom should work. Sure, you could end the relationship over it but to my mind, that is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Personally, I'd see it as an opportunity to further explore your core beliefs, their origin, their value, and their alternatives. You might just open up a world of possibilities that you deeply enjoy.
 
Welcome back. Of course you can post here, we're happy to lend our perspective.

1. I trust you have now passworded your client file since he breached their right to privacy even over and above yours (in my opinion).

As to what else to do when a boundary is breached... that is something you need to agree *with yourself* when you set the boundary. "Don't look in my work folder" is a rule. The rule was broken, not a boundary. Boundaries are about the way you allow people to treat you. If someone treats you in a way you don't like (crosses your boundary) then you can do anything from speak up and let them know you don't like that to never seeing them again. It rather depends on how involved you are with them at the time and how you will allow yourself to be treated in the future. Is this something you feel you need to leave your partner over, or will smaller changes do the job?

2. Is the issue here for you that he had a private masturbation session to *a* nude photo or to *your* client's nude photo? It sounds like you are more upset that he masturbated without including you. That he thought about someone else without telling you.

First up, it is completely normal for couples to masturbate without each other, thinking about whatever they wish. This isn't a slight against you. The secret was that he was using your client file for the purpose. I'm pretty sure you're going to keep that secret from your client...

You are experiencing hurt feelings because somehow you found out what he did. Your trust was breached, professionally, but moreover I suspect you are having a bunch of thoughts around "why did he seek out those photos, why couldn't he think about me, why am I not enough?" These are very common thoughts if you are in the monogamous mindset wherein couples should be so completely entangled with each other that they are effectively one identity. This is still pretty common to the point that (celebrity) couple's names get mashed up into one word. Media perpetrates the notion of a healthy relationship being one where the couple in question only have eyes for each other. The reality is, healthy relationships don't diminish a person's autonomy/control a person's sexuality to the point that they can't masturbate. John is still John and Jane is still Jane, both have privacy without calling it secrecy. Furthermore, the John + Jane relationship is defined by what John and Jane want, not by societal/religious expectations.

I'd suggest having a frank discussion with your partner about both of you desires regarding private masturbation. Are you so shaken by him doing so because you don't? (You don't need to answer that here, just food for thought). What level of self awareness do you have around your own sexuality? You wrote in your other thread that these shared threesome fantasies excite but also scare you.



This is also common enough that there are descriptors for it. It may be time for a little adult sex ed here. Especially if you haven't delved deeply into it before and what you are experiencing is perturbing you.

So, bottom line is, somehow you caught him fantasising about someone else without you and this challenged a core belief you hold about how coupledom should work. Sure, you could end the relationship over it but to my mind, that is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Personally, I'd see it as an opportunity to further explore your core beliefs, their origin, their value, and their alternatives. You might just open up a world of possibilities that you deeply enjoy.
Hey! Thanks for your reply. It was a delight to read, and I'm very happy about the perspective that you are bringing in. My folders had passwords, but it was on my computer, where I was logged in. Honestly, I feel that I should trust that my partner wouldn't go into these files, in my own home.

I wouldn't say that the fantasy itself hurts me that much (okay, on a feelings level, it's something I'm working on. But rationally I would never say he cannot). It's the fact that this fantasy was SO important to him that he was willing to breach my privacy to fulfill it. I feel completely disregarded - THAT's what brings up this specific jealousy. It just feels... asshole-ish.
 
Thank you for clarifying that, it will help guide future responses a lot more. Have you had this conversation with him yet?
 
Thank you for clarifying that, it will help guide future responses a lot more. Have you had this conversation with him yet?
I did. He said he understood it, and we tried to reflect together why he was doing it this way. Some things came up about sexuality, that he enjoys voyeurism, and he has these moods in which he wants to "shake up the boring routine of his life" by doing something risky like this. Seems like it's a pattern. It just... already happened three times, something similar (unconsentually taking a screen shot of me during an intimate video call - talked about it, I guess it stopped. Kissing someone without talking about it first - talked about it, I guess it stopped). But now this again. I don't really understand how someone can call this "love", when they are disregarding you for their pleasure.
 
It sounds like you are more upset that he masturbated without including you. That he thought about someone else without telling you.

First up, it is completely normal for couples to masturbate without each other, thinking about whatever they wish. This isn't a slight against you.

This.

And I'm of an age now where I strongly agree that ideas that promote the idea that fantasies and masturbation are "cheating" drastically alter expectations and to some extent, ethics. Things that would apply in relationships without those values don't apply within them.

I can only give this exaggerated example given the context of the thread. I think we can all agree it would be wrong to clear your spouse's personal savings and flee to start a new life using them. However, if we add the context of an long term abused spouse who has never had access to their own money getting the courage to make such a bold move, we might even fight against any legal proceedings they face as a result.

We understand that people act in ways outside their norm when subjected to unreasonable conditions over a long time. Even if they don't fully understand what makes those conditions unreasonable. It's something like a microaggression.
 
Let me rephrase some of the things I said, since I just had a shower and... shower thoughts make things more clear!

I definitely don't mean that I'm against him having fantasies. Though I didn't underline this part clearly enough, we actively fantasize together, watch porn together, we went on some useless dates with girls. It's all new for me, and for him as well - we are learning and navigating our insecurities. I don't think it's a case of underdeveloped relationship expectations (but I'm really open to be corrected if I'm wrong!).

What I really, really desire is not a relationship in which no one is attracted to anyone else. Heck, I would even think that's boring! (I'm quite into finding some scary and jealousy-provoking scenarios, because unfortunately, it turns me on).

But what I really, really desire is to trust that my partner is open with himself and reflective and mature enough to communicate with me, to not keep falling into these "I'm scared to lose her so I will not be completely honest with her" (happened many times) thought patterns. Over the past year I've come really far into understanding and opening myself up to a non-monogamy or monogamish kind of relationship. It really resonates with me. What I don't understand is why my partner wouldn't come to me and asked me if he could have pictures. If he could kiss someone. It all seems discussable to me. I guess he keeps not understanding this, or lives in this idea that the things that he wants or thinks about are a no-go. But open communication could be so beautiful!

How do I even fix this? Is it that we did not go over the possible scenarios that could happen, and that he doesn't understand when a boundary is being crossed, therefore not discussing it with me?
 
So this is his third time doing something in itself comparatively minor but in the big picture he is building a pattern of behaviours. Welcome to exploring you boundaries. How long will you let yourself be affected by his behaviours? How many foul balls before you take a walk? What will that look like? Ending the relationship or evolving it to the point that these things feel inconsequential to you?

The way I practice polyamory is that my partners can do whatever they like with their minds and bodies. We are simply courteous to each other so as to not deliberately hurt the other person. If there is any hurt, we deal with it. As for a screenshot during an intimate call, well, so long as he's the only one with access to that picture, all good and I don't need to know if he's even taking them. But I didn't always feel like that, I became more comfortable with it the more I grew into my relationship/s. I examined my personal concerns and redefined my boundaries for each relationship. I grew trust with my partners, together. It sounds like your trust in your partner is diminishing over time. How could you turn that around? Do you even want to turn that around or are you starting to look for enough validation to leave? It can be hard to leave a relationship that isn't inherently bad, but you're just over it and ready to move on and grow in directions that you can't while you're in that relationship.

What do you really need?
 
but transferred to monogamy. After a year of us seeing each other, my attachment fears started to come up (referring to the same post again). I had only been in quite short relationships up until that point (one or two years, until NRE runs out apparently) and had... a shit ton to learn. And I still do - NRE is a pretty strong thing. However, I found out that my partner was very similar, which gave rise to a BUNCH of anxiety.

This part isn't exactly clear. Why did you transfer to monogamy? Was it because these fears rose? What prompted the change that led to the point that he had to discuss it with you before he acted on his attraction?
 
What I don't understand is why my partner wouldn't come to me and asked me if he could have pictures. If he could kiss someone. It all seems discussable to me.
Perhaps because these transgressive acts are his big turn on?
 
This part isn't exactly clear. Why did you transfer to monogamy? Was it because these fears rose? What prompted the change that led to the point that he had to discuss it with you before he acted on his attraction?

We both desired a monogamy-kind-of-setup. We are open to finding out how to stretch that container, but both of us didn't feel like we had the skills yet to create a different kind of relationship (the polyamorous relationship in which we started was a big, big disaster).
Perhaps because these transgressive acts are his big turn on?
Hm. Good one. So I guess I shouldn't expect to change that, haha. I mean, that wouldn't be healthy.
 
Honestly, I feel that I should trust that my partner wouldn't go into these files, in my own home.
Btw, I agree with this completely. I don't go onto my husband's computer and he doesn't go onto mine. The only circumstance in which either of us would do that is in event of serious incapacitation or death.
 
I guess it depends what kind of transgressions you are willing to live with.
 
Hi Pim,

One consequence you could attach to a boundary is that if he crosses the boundary (e.g., if he violates your privacy to get at a nude photo), you will have a temporary breakup with him. That is, you will go live somewhere else for a few weeks or a few months. And maybe you will also go no-contact with him during that time. You will also use the time to reevaluate your relationship with him, and decide whether you want to resume that relationship at the end of the temporary breakup. I realize that what I'm describing would cost money, and/or maybe it would involve living with your parents, or other friends/family, for a few weeks or a few months. I don't know if that's something you could do. But I thought I'd mention it just in case. There are ideas that are smaller than breaking up for good, but also larger than doing nothing.

Based on what I've read here so far, I don't think he will ever stop going behind your back. He doesn't think he can get your permission, so he just does it, whatever is going to float his boat. You have to think about whether this pattern of behavior is something you can tolerate in your life -- for a year, for ten years, for fifty years, or what have you. In order to lay the foundation for the kind of future you want to have, you may have to make some changes in the present.

Such, at least, are some of my current thoughts.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
I agree with Evie. It sounds like the sneaking around is a turn-on, or a kink for him. It probably stems from those childhood/teen years where you had to sneak to masturbate, to get to porn, to finally have sex with a partner. Even if you're out of the family home and living with roommates, you need to "sneak," or at least be discreet. And heaven forbid you have kids, once they get past the age of 3 or so, you always run the risk of getting caught, being asked questions, grossing them out, or even somewhat traumatizing them.

For me, kink can operate as a kind of healing therapy. If you're aware he gets turned on by sneaking, practicing open and honest non-monogamy with a tolerant partner such as yourself is not going to cut if for him, unless and until he works through this particular kink. (And maybe he doesn't want to do that.)

You could face it head-on. "I know you get turned on by doing stuff behind my back. Risking getting caught and being found guilty and receiving 'punishment' is your kink. Is there a way we could play with this?" You could play-act the sneaking, the capture, the interrogation, the punishment. I know for a fact interrogation is a definite kink some people do in kink clubs.
 
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