Navigating spouse's concerns over my interest in & desire for polyamory

[Sigma_Dennis]

In the last 5 years or so I have become increasingly unhappy. So, earlier this year I started therapy to try to figure myself out.

For several reasons therapy led me to consider whether I am really "wired" for monogamy. So, I went through Dr. Zhana's "Open Smarter" program, I read A LOT, to continued (and still am) talking with my therapist and to ultimately conclude that I am indeed NOT a monogamous person and I have needs, emotional and physical, beyond my marriage. I was at first concerned that I was just being selfish and greedy somehow, but my therapist has helped me to see that that is not so and to accept without judgment that I feel the way I feel. And I am somewhere in the neighborhood of wanting an open marriage or genuine polyamory with another partner in the home.

I've been honest and open with my wife about this while reassuring her that I have taken no action, that I love her very much and I do not want to replace her...I don't. She's my best friend. We have fun together, we have a long, lovely, shared history, and for the most part, we communicate well. She's not a particularly emotional person in the first place, likes only very specific (and not much) touching, is comfortable that her interest in sex is dwindling. She assures me that that is not because of me in any way, that that's just her and she's okay with it. I accept that she's content with things as they are and she's trying to accept that I need more. She wants me to be happy and she doesn't really have hang-ups about me being with other women per se. But she still has the following concerns...and I'm seeking your help to address them:

1. That she feels she's not enough (How do I articulate that she IS enough, within her authentic self as I described above, but that I need something else too? Taht she is not broken, and I am not deviant. We just have a divergence here.)

2. That I'll fall in love with someone else and leave her (I've assured that I WILL NEVER leave her, and I won't. That's a promise and it's non-negotiable. But I can't promise not to love other women. In a sense I already fall a little bit in love with every woman I meet. I've told my wife these things, but how do I really explain and assure her of place and priority in my life?)

3. That others will find out that we're open or poly and she'll be embarrassed (Although I couldn't give a shit less about social consequences, I recognize that's a real and legitimate worry for her. How do I address that?)

So, that's my situation. Even as write and ask these questions I feel like I am still being selfish and that it shouldn't weigh so heavily on me.

But it does...so I am open to and interested in your advice. Even if your feedback is that I'm full of shit...I'll take it. I just need your perspective.

With gratitude.

Dennis

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

That she feels she's not enough

Well she isn't enough. You want to open the relationship because she isn't tactile enough as you said. You literally said she isn't very emotional, doesn't like touch and has a dwindling interest in sex.

how do I really explain and assure her of place and priority in my life?)

That might happen because you could meet someone far more compatible. Someone where you wouldn't feel anything lacking if you were just with them. There's no way to assure her that it will never happen without lying. Not unless the financial burden of divorce is what puts you off. If it's that you can tell her that you'd never make yourself that broke.

How do I address that?)

That's also legitimate. You want to open because your wife doesn't give you enough sex or affection. People finding that out can lead to very harsh criticism of the both of you. They'll say you're selfish and immature for needing sex and that she's cold and selfish for not giving you enough sex. She's absolutely right.


It seems to me that you and your wife have been together a long time and you've just outgrown your romantic and sexual compatibility. That's not a good reason to be poly.

 

[Sigma_Dennis]

Thank you for an honest, thoughtful response.

You're right. She's not enough for me but she says I am enough for her. That's the truth. Which is why I feel selfish & she feels diminished.

And you're right too that I can't predict the future of any relationships or feelings that could develop.

I just know I won't abandon her. Which according to your response means that I stay with her, stay monogamous and deal with it. Fair enough.

So may I ask then, what IS a good reason to be poly?

 

[Magdlyn]

In the last 5 years or so I have become increasingly unhappy. So, earlier this year I started therapy to try to figure myself out.

How long have you been married? Do you have kids?

You've done some research, so you may know that sex between married partners can dwindle because, just like "absence makes the heart grow fonder," "familiarity breeds contempt."

Of course I am not saying either of you feels not fond or contemptuous of the other. But studies with rodents have shown that a male in a cage with a female will have sex with her until they are exhausted, and they'll retreat from each other, groom, fall asleep. But if the first female is taken out, and another one brought in, the male rodent will eagerly have sex with her, and again with a third female and maybe more, until he really is dead tired! lol

I am not sure if the same thing happens with a female and multiple males, but I'd be interested to find out!

Humans are naturally promiscuous, and variety is the spice of life. That is (one reason) why in the patriarchy, males (in power and by force) have made sure they can have multiple wives and concubines, whereas their harem of women are (supposed to be) loyal only unto them. Since women's drive for their one man will dwindle from familiarity, and there is competition for his time, and women's libidos fluctuate during their monthly cycles and during pregnancy, lactation, perimenopause and menopause, this has sort of worked. (Plus the women might be able to have sex with each other or with eunuchs, at least in the olden days.)

A great book to learn more about this is called Sex at Dawn: how we mate and why we stray.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=sex+at+dawn&crid=3U3KI0SHK1ZT8&sprefix=sex+at+dawn%2Caps%2C78&ref=nb_sb_noss

For several reasons, therapy led me to consider whether I am really "wired" for monogamy. So, I went through Dr. Zhana's "Open Smarter" program, I read A LOT, to continued (and still am) talking with my therapist and to ultimately conclude that I am indeed NOT a monogamous person and I have needs, emotional and physical, beyond my marriage. I was at first concerned that I was just being selfish and greedy somehow, but my therapist has helped me to see that that is not so and to accept without judgment that I feel the way I feel. And I am somewhere in the neighborhood of wanting an open marriage or genuine polyamory with another partner in the home.

Having another partner "in the home" is not "genuine" poly. It is not at all necessary to ask your wife to share HER home with a new woman you just happen to have the hots for or are in love with. Many poly people do not want their metamour (partner's partner) to even visit for sex. They want "parallel" poly, not "kitchen table" poly.

... She's not a particularly emotional person in the first place, likes only very specific (and not much) touching, is comfortable that her interest in sex is dwindling. She assures me that that is not because of me in any way, that that's just her and she's okay with it. I accept that she's content with things as they are and she's trying to accept that I need more. She wants me to be happy and she doesn't really have hang-ups about me being with other women per se. But she still has the following concerns...and I'm seeking your help to address them:

If you do open, don't be surprised if she finds a mob of men that want to date her, while you barely get any action for months, or even years.

1. That she feels she's not enough (How do I articulate that she IS enough, within her authentic self as I described above, but that I need something else too, that she is not broken, and I am not deviant, we just have a divergence here?)

I agree with Seasoned. She's not enough. You need sex and more touch in general, and more emotional intimacy as well, it seems. You guys have gone from lovers to just besties, and you want a full romantic connection with someone, or someones.

2. That I'll fall in love with someone else and leave her (I've assured that I WILL NEVER leave her, and I won't. That's a promise and it's non-negotiable. But I can't promise not to love other women. In a sense I already fall a little bit in love with every woman I meet. I've told my wife these things, but how do I really explain and assure her of place and priority in my life?)

Never say never. Marriages break up all the time, for infinite reasons. Many of us promise to marry til death do us part, but half of all marriages end in divorce. You might get so wrapped up in a new and much sexier woman or three that you neglect your wife and she will leave you. Maybe if you have kids she'd be more likely to stay, but be unhappy just to share you. You may not leave her completely, but you will be coming and going...

3. That others will find out that we're open or poly and she'll be embarrassed (Although I couldn't give a shit less about social consequences, I recognize that's a real and legitimate worry for her. How do I address that?)

That can be a real dealbreaker. It's impossible to promise complete discretion. And it's not really fair to the other woman, btw, to be your dirty little secret. Being "out" as poly is a personal choice. Sometimes there is a mismatch in desires to be out. And yes, sometimes people get outed by accident.

So, that's my situation. Even as write and ask these questions I feel like I am still being selfish and that it shouldn't weigh so heavily on me.

We can offer advice and books. Opening Up is another good one. But it's hard to open a mono relationship when just one of the members is really devoted to the idea. Ironically some spouses would rather you cheat in secret than be ethical publicly.

It's good you've had a lot of individual therapy. Have you done couples counseling?

 

[Alluvion]

I second the recommendation for lots of individual and couples therapy.

Polyamory (and other forms of ethical nonmonogamy) change your existing relationship in all sorts of ways that can sometimes be difficult to predict in advance. Change isn’t always a bad thing! But it sure can be scary.

It’s brave of your wife to share these concerns with you. I’m glad you’re taking them so seriously. This isn’t something you want to jump into without enthusiastic consent from both spouses.

How much reading have you done on what to expect? What sort of relationship would you have to offer someone else, how often would you want to see them, and do you genuinely have the time and energy to do so while also keeping up with all of your current responsibilities at work, home, with your spouse, etc?

(e.g. would you be open to having kids with a second partner? Travel with them? Introduce them to your parents? Take them to your company Christmas party? Take care of them if they’re sick/injured? Or are you looking for a less entangled relationship like a friend with benefits who you’ll see once a month? No judgement intended no matter what your answer are, but experienced polyamorous people will often screen heavily for someone whose desires and availability match their own. So this is one of those things you’ll want to have figured out in advance even if you’re open to a lot of different possibilities. I personally do not go on second dates with people who seem like they might be changing their answers to those questions to better entice me instead of being honest about what they can genuinely offer).

I was surprised by how much harder this was than it originally seemed! Relationships are absolutely rewarding, but they’re also a crap ton of work to maintain. I’ve known a few people who stopped doing chores, looking after their kids/pets as often, etc. in the excitement of a new relationship. That’s something that can very, very quickly cause serious damage to your marriage.

Some people do live with all of their partners in the same home, but many, many others do not. There are a lot of different ways to practice polyamory.

Magdlyn’s point about the high probability of your wife getting a ton of attention and you getting very little after opening up is something I highly recommend researching as well. It happens to a lot of men, especially if they’re already married/highly entangled. How would you react if your wife finds a boyfriend (or girlfriend?) right away while you haven’t had a date in a year, for example?

I look forward to reading your updates in this thread if you decide to share them.

 

[kdt26417]

Greetings Dennis,
Welcome to our forum. Please feel free to lurk, browse, etc.

It sounds like you have a really good therapist, I am glad they didn't dismiss your open/poly desires as being selfish or greedy. I know your wife is struggling to understand/accept, but at least you have a therapist whom you can depend on to be objective about things with you.

It won't be very convenient for you to hear this, but my take on it is that your wife *isn't* enough for you. And it's not because of any shortcoming on her part, it's because any one person (including her) can only be one person, and you need more than one person. So I guess what I'm saying is, no, technically she's not enough, but that's not her fault, and you are 100% happy with her for the person that she is. Even while you desire more than one person per se. Hopefully that makes sense.

I don't know if it would help her -- actually both of you -- to read the book, "Sex at Dawn: how we mate, why we stray, and what it means for modern relationships," by Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jethá. It's a really good book, I daresay even a fun book, that explains how humans are naturally nonmonogamous, we're only monogamous because monogamy has been imposed on us as an artificial construct. I don't agree with everything in the book, but I do think it puts a fresh and important perspective on things. No you are not deviant. You are just human.

Another thing that's not very convenient to hear, is that no relationship can be 100% predicted. Some relationships are wonderful while they last, but they are not meant to last for a lifetime. So can you promise your wife that you and she will never break up? well, technically, no. But I think you can promise that you will never leave her for/because of another woman. The thing is, only time can prove 100% that a promise is true. She has to see that you are a man of your word, and the only way she can really see that is by experience. You will just have to keep reassuring her with your words, and more importantly, with your actions. Hopefully with the passing of time she will come to feel more secure about your loyalty.

As for people finding out that you're poly, you can't 100% insure that that will never happen, but you can agree to keep it "in the closet." That is how it is in my household, only a couple of people know of our poly arrangement, and those people aren't the type to blab. To the rest of our friends/family, I am just a close friend, or adopted family, to the married couple with whom I share a house/home. If it was just up to me, sure we'd shout our love from the housetops, but because my two poly companions would not want that, I am okay with keeping it in the closet.

There is something called "poly saturation," it is when you have so many partners that you are spread as thin as you can be, especially if you want to give each relationship the time and attention it deserves. You might find that you are poly-saturated at two partners ... and your wife might be finding that she is poly-saturated at one partner. In that way, it isn't even that she's "not poly," it's just that she has a lower saturation number than you do. Something to think about.

I know I'm partly echoing what the others have said, but I want to leave it at that, as a demonstration of how important some of these points are. I hope you and your wife can work things out, one way or another.

Sincerely,
Kevin T., "official greeter"

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[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

what IS a good reason to be poly?

We had a conversation about this recently. Not everyone agrees with me fully. It is only a few posts long >> https://polyamory.com/threads/not-really-a-blog.135808/post-491206

 

[Magdlyn]

You're right. She's not enough for me but she says I am enough for her. That's the truth. Which is why I feel selfish and she feels diminished.

If and when you start dating, she might want to try it just to see how it feels. Perhaps she will prefer monogamy, but maybe this really great person will come along and her libido will get resparked. Life is so unpredictable. Never say never.

I can't predict the future of any relationships or feelings that could develop.

I just know I won't abandon her. Which, according to your response means that I stay with her, stay monogamous and deal with it. Fair enough.

You can be poly and not abandon her, for sure! Lots of married people are poly and remain happily married. It's much easier though, to meet a new person and agree on ethical non-monogamy from the start, or come to the realization together that you would both like to open.

The best way to not abandon a mono spouse is to learn to handle your NRE (new relationship energy, or infatuation). It can and does make us kind of lose all rationality and obsess about the new and shiny partner. The book Opening Up addresses this in detail.

So may I ask then, what IS a good reason to be poly?

There are plenty of good reasons to be poly! More love, more excitement, different kind of sex, more and different kinds of adventures, more support when you need it (job issues, illness, a death in the family), another caregiver for the kids-- this list goes on and on.

 

[GalaGirl]

1. That she feels she's not enough (How do I articulate that she IS enough, within her authentic self as I described above, but that I need something else too? Taht she is not broken, and I am not deviant. We just have a divergence here.)

You could be honest.

She may be enough HER.

You two may or may not still be compatible.

And even if compatible still? She is NOT enough because you do not want monogamy. You want some kind of non-monogamy/polyamory with more than one partner and she cannot magically become more people.

2. That I'll fall in love with someone else and leave her (I've assured that I WILL NEVER leave her, and I won't. That's a promise and it's non-negotiable. But I can't promise not to love other women. In a sense I already fall a little bit in love with every woman I meet. I've told my wife these things, but how do I really explain and assure her of place and priority in my life?)

I don't promise things like that. "Never leave you." Cuz I will. Despite decades of marriage, if my DH went bananas and started kicking the dog, chasing after minors, robbing banks, and other gross behaviors? I'm out.

I do say that he has a place and is a priority in my life and that I enjoy ____. All the things which make me want to stay. His companionship, that we work well as a team, care and understanding, etc.

If over time either one falls out of love with the other or we become incompatible? We've talked about that and how to part with grace. We are both capable and could stand on our own. So there's nothing to fear here.

3. That others will find out that we're open or poly and she'll be embarrassed (Although I couldn't give a shit less about social consequences, I recognize that's a real and legitimate worry for her. How do I address that?)

She has to assess risk and then how much SHE cares about how other people think. You cannot do that for her. For example, someone with a military job runs a high risk there. So I could see wanting to keep it quiet at work.

I suppose you could start here if these core beliefs are popping up for her. Couple therapy might also help address it.

• If my partner really loved me, (s)he wouldn’t have any desire for a sexual relationship with anyone else.
• If my partner were happy with me, and if I were a good partner/spouse/lover/etc., my partner would be so satisfied that (s)he wouldn’t want to get involved with anyone else.
• It’s just not possible to love more than one person at the same time.

You know she can say "No, thanks" right? That she accepts this is what you need and want now -- some kind of open/poly. And if she wants monogamy? It's time to part ways? Maybe over time become exes and friends if you both want that?

I noticed these things.

I was at first concerned that I was just being selfish and greedy somehow, but my therapist has helped me to see that that is not so and to accept without judgment that I feel the way I feel. And I am somewhere in the neighborhood of wanting an open marriage or genuine polyamory with another partner in the home.

So, that's my situation. Even as write and ask these questions I feel like I am still being selfish and that it shouldn't weigh so heavily on me.

That's twice you are going on about being selfish. Who taught you that thinking about what you need is SELFISH rather than you being concerned about your well-being?

 

[Magdlyn]

Who taught you that thinking about what you need is SELFISH rather than you being concerned about your well-being?

I find that question a bit disingenuous. (I know you though, and know you're asking a rhetorical question.) Of course, our culture teaches us to put others' needs first. That's the message that gets preached from pulpits. It is what many think Jesus and the Bible teaches. My ex h was raised with a heavy-handed push for: Jesus/God first, others next and my own needs last.

This is sick. One's own needs are just as important as other's needs. No more, no less. Only thinking of yourself is selfish and even sociopathic. But you can't live a martyr's life and expect to be happy. There needs to be balance. I prefer the Asian idea of yin and yang, balance in all things. My needs are important, yes, and so are yours. Let's see how we can cooperate and negotiate to meet both our needs as well as possible. I won't be a martyr and bend myself into a pretzel to meet your needs, and vice versa.

 

[GalaGirl]

Yup. It's rhetorical. Because "selfish" vs "selfless?" It misses the balanced place in the middle. Where one is concerned about one's own well being, does their self care. AND seeks to balance that with other people needs and their reasonable requests for help.

So if it applies here, it could bear thinking about here, OP.

Why do you think it's selfish to be concerned about your well being and the things you need to be happy in this life? Who taught you this? Where did you learn this? And how does this play against your wife's needs? How you help each other when/where appropriate? And in acknowledging that some stuff is just NOT your stuff to do or help with?

 

[Magdlyn]

Well, I assume he was taught and learned it from his parents, his church and our "Christian" culture at large. That is my point. It's not necessary to ask. The answer is obvious.

But it's not just putting other's needs first. It's also loyalty. It's also feeling like a perv. It's also probably a bit of sunk cost fallacy.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

I think we also have to bear in mind that many people know exactly why there is discord or mismatches in their relationship. Such as the trope of the exhausted woman ill-supported by her husband who thinks going to work is all he has to do. Even if she works too.

Some people who say "I fear I'm being selfish" KNOW they are being selfish and exactly why their partner will not be up for opening their relationship and it has nothing to do with jealousy or possessiveness.