New to Poly- Dating a Married Woman seeking advice

[A_Nash_Guy]

Hey Mags, I can absolutely understsnd why someone as experienced as you, and from what I've read other poly people prefer not to get involved with couples that have newly opened up. There is definitely a bit of a rollercoaster as they find their footing, and sort through the many feelings and details.

I feel that Annie and Adam are doing pretty well, all things considered working through the space to allow for polyamory in their mariage. Having some experience with non monogamy through their swinging life I think has helped in some ways.

Certainly, what you're saying is wise about a couple opening their relationship and adding another person if they are having relationship troubles. From where I am and what I see, I'm not sure if the things they are working through are open marriage growing pains, and non monogamy growing pains. Or something more. I'm going to wait before I decide if taking a step back is prudent. We do have feelings for each other and we have an attachment based relationship. With that, I feel being trusted support, safe space, or "safe haven", is an important pillar to maintain and nurture.

Being a counselor for troubles between Annie, Adam is a space I agree that is not my place to provide "advice". And I can definitely understand having trepidation about her sharing with me, as there are most certainly many who might use that trust selfishly for their own destructive ends. I respect the boundaries on advice giving, especially in those areas with her as I would with anyone. In my experience providing "advice" when what someone really needs is just to be heard, so they can sort through things, is not helpful to put it simply.

I have this leaning that who we choose to confide in should be our choice, poly, mono, single, or otherwise. A partner feeling uncomfortable with their SO confiding in someone that they feel safe with, and seeking to control who they speak with. I feel delves into self insecurity, or shame work. Or worse, attempting to isolate their partner. The latter isn't the case here. Additionally I would add that attachment based relationships have many layers of intimacy. Some of those layers are rooted in being vulnerable with what troubles us. Would poly partners asking for sharing restrictions be like asking for intimacy boundaries? I think possibly, and those are in turn feeling boundaries. Since vulnerable intimacy is part of trust and bonding.

Now, a partner that has codependent traits and shares "dirty laundry" with others to enlist supporters is something different entirely.

So while I can understand the black and white of, "hey you're my partner, I'm not comfortable when you do this, I request you respect this, and
not." On the surface is reasonable ask and agreement for most things. But, who we feel comfortable with our partners choosing to confide in and seeking to control that I think is a slippery slope. Which could cause more harm than us getting over ourselves about it, and allowing our partners to heal or process in what are healthy ways.

Lots of words.. Good advice all around, and wise.

Thanks Mags!

 

[JaneQSmythe]

Just as another point-of-view - not all experienced polyfolk rule out getting involved with people newly opening up a marriage. I thought I had posted about this previously - which I had, although the post was a little more vitriolic than I remembered! I, personally, don't avoid poly newbies/couples as a matter of course - from my perspective it might benefit them to be involved with someone who has been "around the block" a few times (or several blocks...or a town/city or two). UNLESS, that "experienced" poly person is convinced that they have determined the "One-True-Way" that poly MUST be practiced...(another topic of discussion)

However, as is frequently noted here, poly has a way of shining light into ALL of the dark corners of a relationship and bringing into the light cracks and weaknesses that have gone unnoticed in a monogamous setting...which, in the long run, can be healthy and lead to growth, but, in the short run, can be REALLY painful. But if a relationship is fundamentally sound then it may not be a case of "relationship broken, add more people" (which is a BAD idea, like haveing a baby to "save" a marriage) but just the usual growing pains.

Can you explain to me a bit about "attachment based relationships"? A quick Google search doesn't seem to be particularly informative.

As to how much of a "sympathic ear" you can lend her? There are a LOT of factors there! So if we look at, for example, Ring Theory...which is specifically addressing crisis but I would argue could relate to any stress...then the idea is to "comfort in" and "dump out". By "comforting in" you are placing yourself OUTSIDE of the inner circle of involved persons...is that someplace you are willing to be? That reinforces the hierarchy of the married people/secondary model. (Just a thought to consider.)

I'm a HUGE fan of "outside" counselors/therapists IN ADDITION TO friends and partners. What I tell my clients is - "It's GREAT that you have the support of and can talk to the people who are important to you about what is going on in your life, I totally want you to continue to do that and be supported by them....BUT, also realize that they are IN it, they have their own thoughts and reactions to what is going on, whether they realize it or not. NO ONE who has a stake in the game can be completely objective..."

Now, obviously I am a clinical cold-hearted ice-queen who can't possibly be affected by the actions of other people (or, at least, I play one in real life)...so I clearly believe that I can be objective and compartmentalize my different "roles" in someone's life. Your experiences and beliefs are likely completely different...

Jane("Opinionated-But-Likely-Wrong")Q

 

[Magdlyn]

I'm a HUGE fan of "outside" counselors/therapists IN ADDITION TO friends and partners... "It's GREAT that you have the support of and can talk to the people who are important to you about what is going on in your life. I totally want you to continue to do that and be supported by them. BUT, also realize that they are IN it. They have their own thoughts and reactions to what is going on, whether they realize it or not. NO ONE who has a stake in the game can be completely objective."

This was my point, as well as the factor that Annie is sharing Adam's thoughts and struggles with Nash Guy, which I think could be embarrassing for Adam, if he even knew how much detail Annie was sharing. After all, opening up to consent to your wife falling in love with another man (not to mention the sex part, which they are already familiar with to an extent) is already seen as a weakness in our culture. (He is insisting on giving or withholding "permission" at this point. He won't even look at her as his equal. And you are a threat.) Added to that, you are hearing about his fears, problems and mental issues too, and are still rather a stranger to him. Even if he does think you're a "good guy." Maybe he's afraid you're "too good" and "his" woman might prefer you.

I also don't understand this "attachment-based relationship" term. Aren't all intimate relationships defined by attachment or bonding? Just because you feel "attached" to Annie doesn't mean you need to know about every time Adam gets upset, cries, gets depressed or angry, feels threatened, etc. Annie probably needs to learn to be a bit more self-reliant, and to reach out to friends, a counselor, or even to information in books/websites (such as Opening Up) to better understand Adam and be able to help him (and herself). Then she can come to you with clarity around number of dates per week they have mutually decided upon, etc.

 

[A_Nash_Guy]

Thank you for the replies! Very helpful and interesting points of view. Definitely lots to think about. Will fully reply soon.

 

[Magdlyn]

Hey Mags, I can absolutely understand why someone as experienced as you, and from what I've read, other poly people, prefer not to get involved with couples that have newly opened up. There is definitely a bit of a rollercoaster as they find their footing, and sort through the many feelings and details.

I feel that Annie and Adam are doing pretty well, all things considered, working through the space to allow for polyamory in their marriage. Having some experience with non-monogamy through their swinging life has helped in some ways, I think.

It has helped with sharing sex. But otherwise, they might be just as entangled as any mono couple. Some disentangling is necessary when a marriage goes polyamorous.

Certainly, what you're saying is wise about a couple opening their relationship and adding another person if they are having relationship troubles. From where I am and what I see, I'm not sure if the things they are working through are open-marriage growing pains, non-monogamy growing pains, or something more. I'm going to wait before I decide if taking a step back is prudent... We have an attachment-based relationship. With that, I feel being trusted support, safe space, or "safe haven" is an important pillar to maintain and nurture.

Re being a counselor for troubles between Annie and Adam: I agree it is not my place to provide advice. And I can definitely understand Adam having trepidation about her sharing with me, as there are certainly many who might use that trust selfishly for their own destructive ends. I respect the boundaries on advice giving, especially in those areas with her, as I would with anyone. In my experience, providing advice when what someone just needs to be heard, so they can sort through things, is not helpful.

I have a belief that whom we choose to confide in should be our choice, whether we are poly, mono, or single. A partner feeling uncomfortable with their SO confiding in someone that they feel safe with, [could be] seeking to control whom they speak with. I feel this delves into self-insecurity, shame, or worse, attempting to isolate their partner.

You might notice over time that poly people do tend to be discreet about what they share about one partner with the other. We often do not share sex details, or deeply personal issues that our partner would prefer to remain private. I think there are things we might share about our partner with platonic friends, or with a counselor, that we might not share between intimate partners. It could be disadvantageous.

I always ask a new partner about what I they would prefer I share, or not, with my other partner(s), whether it's sexual details, stories from their past, their medical history, or just emotionally intimate/vulnerable thoughts and feelings. My nesting partner has asked me to not share certain things about her past with new dating prospects. Maybe, once I've been dating them for a while, and they have proved their trustworthiness, then she'd be OK with me sharing those things.

You feel you are trustworthy, but you have not proven your trustworthiness over time. I am just trying to express what might be going through Adam's mind and heart during his rollercoaster.

Additionally, I would add that attachment-based relationships have many layers of intimacy. Some of those layers are rooted in being vulnerable with what troubles us. Would poly partners asking for sharing restrictions be like asking for intimacy boundaries? I think possibly, and those are in turn feeling boundaries. Since vulnerable intimacy is part of trust and bonding.

I see your point. Adam saying, "You can only do anal with me," is, in your mind, the same as him saying, "Don't tell Nash guy about the panic attack I had last night." I think it's wrong to say what your partner can and can't do sexually with another. That is a rule that is so easy to break. But Annie could respect Adam's privacy and not share about every panic attack, or other depressive symptom he may have. That's just a matter of choosing to be discreet. Poly does not mean complete openness to the point of telling a partner's every personal detail to the other partner. It's OK to choose your words and not blab everything.

It's OK if you feel uncomfortable not knowing every detail of Adam's emotional response. You're not dating him. You're dating Annie.

Now, a partner that has codependent traits and shares "dirty laundry" with others to enlist supporters is something different entirely.

So while I can understand the black and white of, "hey you're my partner, I'm not comfortable when you do this, I request you respect this, and
not." On the surface is reasonable ask and agreement for most things. But, who we feel comfortable with our partners choosing to confide in and seeking to control that I think is a slippery slope which could cause more harm than us getting over ourselves about it, and allowing our partners to heal or process in healthy ways.

Yeah but I don't think it's necessarily "healthy" for ANNIE to tell you every little detail of what ADAM is going through.