not handling this well

[gvrnmtwrng]

we are 13 years into the lifestyle and love it.
i (M 48) have been married to L (F 48) for nearly 21 years now. 13 years ago our best friend finally left her emotionally abusive husband. i joked about becoming the next sister wives show, to which L said "i would do that with M, who will treat her better than us?"
didn't expect that though we had been swingers for many years, which is how we met M in the first place.
we are a V with me as the hinge. L and I are straight, M is bi.
we have 4 kids, 2 with L, 2 with M, but all mine.

M has said she wants to explore her bi side some more as she never got the chance in school or in other relationships as most of us would have.
i am totally good with that, we know (A) the girl she is in love with and she is a wonderful friend along with her husband who i love as much as a straight man can love another guy. she is really cute but her husband only want's her to be with other women....giving her something that a man is not capable of.
still totally cool with it.

now the issue............

L and I work in bar entertainment, karaoke, DJ, trivia, etc.
Saturday nights are M and I night out (even though it's working, she loves to sing and we have many mutual friends at this particular venue).
she sits at a table right next to me with a bunch of our friends, and i have been seeing one particular guy (the newest friend in the group) getting closer with M, a little harmless flirting, but nothing concerning as i had full confidence that he would not cross that line and even if he did, she would shut him down in a second.
i've been joking about it to her, pointing out the "puppy dog" way he is acting, and saying " be careful, he isn't looking at you with "nice shoes, wanna fuck", he want's you....and not just as a friend. he HAS helped out, when i had double hernia surgery, he spent the next 6 weeks moving all my equipment from bar to bar, given me a ride after closing as my new medication caused some bad side effects not conducive to driving...at 2AM.

fast forward about 6 months, M sits down and tells me she has very strong feelings for A, ok, i saw that a mile away, but i'm happy she is exploring another part of herself that is important to her.
then.....says she has very strong feelings for the guy.

he has been "grooming" M for a long time, but i always had 100% certainty that she would never let him get in the door.
they talk often, he'll reach over and run his fingers on her knee, the puppy dog eyes filled with infatuation....
it's all pretty cool to me because, what better compliment than someone else looking at my wife and thinking "damn i want her".
i always thought she would never fall for his tactics, but she has had a long battle with her self image and worth. she honestly did not think he REALLY wanted her, she doesn't think guys would (she is a larger BBW) be interested in her.

we are the opposite of most here, physically i'm good with other guys being with her as long as i'm involved. we have played with many over the years and never an issue. it's the feels that i kept off limits, and because of what i saw him doing, he was off limits. he's already got the feels, so no go.
her heart is off limits, he is off limits.
other than that we are fine.

i kick myself now for not intervening earlier, but i honestly never thought she would get hornswaggled by him.

i want to be happy for her, i want to see her happy, but now it is...
the ONE thing that was off limits (her heart)
and the ONE guy that was off limits.

i know without a doubt, she did not try for this, that is not a question in my mind at all.
i know without a doubt that HE worked on this on purpose for a long time to get her, fully pre-meditated.
i will never be convinced otherwise, everything he did was to gain her favor (the rides, moving the gear, etc)

i have never felt this level of pain. not just the heart, not just the emotions, but a real physical pain in my gut that hurts even worse than my hernias and even the hernia surgery. i would rather have the hernias back than have this excruciating stabbing pain inside.

she is not pushing at all, she is not rushing at all, they have done nothing at all other than talk.
i wish i could have compersion for her, and i think i could...if it was literally ANYBODY ELSE.

she knows how hurt i am, we have talked it over rather heavily and she is at a stand still with him until/unless i give the ok.
i have NEVER tried to tell her what she can and can not do, who she can talk to, or control her in any way like that (bedroom is different).
i'm terrified of pushing her away by saying "hell no", but i just can't go along with it being HIM.


i don't know what i'm looking for here, i really just need a good community of poly friendly people to hopefully help me navigate this cluster.
outside of this, our lives are wonderful, not perfect, but we are happy and love each other so much.
i'm in much pain and lost

 

[Evie]

You say he was grooming her, but wasn't he just flirting with her? He's been attracted to her for a while so he's gone out of his way to make himself available with helping out, being around. You call them tactics...why do you see him as so manipulative rather than just someone courting a woman he's interested in?

Are you afraid he wants to be a cowboy? Break up your relationship and her burgeoning one with A?

You don't like her having feels for another man - why is this threatening? You clearly love two people of the same gender, so why the hypocrisy?

You've said that you don't mind having threesomes with another guy and you're involved, but is it the idea that they'll want sex without you there to supervise that's the issue? What are you afraid of happening? That she'll get SA'd? Or that she'll have a good time with another penis without yours there? Or that the pillow talk would be threatening to your relationship? That for some reason she'd leave you for him permanently? Is this different to her eventually having sex and pillow talk with feels with A without you there? Or would you supervise that too? Or is A "safe" because she's married?

Why did you decree that M's heart is off limits to another man but not to another woman? Was this an agreement between you after the breakdown of her previous relationship? Do you and M have a D/s or M/s thing here that is under threat? Is that why you were so certain she'd never let him in the door?

What is it about HIM that you really hate so much. You describe him as a puppy dog, a flirt, a helper and a groomer. Really? All of those? They seem a bit incongruous. Is there something about him that is holding a mirror up to something about you that you don't like looking at? That's usually why we take a dislike to people, they show us something about ourselves that is uncomfortable to see.

note: I'm asking all the hard questions to see if any of them ping you enough that you identify the real issue here.

 

[gvrnmtwrng]

Hi Evie, thanks for responding. i will try to answer the best i can

You say he was grooming her, but wasn't he just flirting with her?

i really THOUGHT it was just flirting, i didn't think he was really going for it. this is hindsight.

He's been attracted to her for a while so he's gone out of his way to make himself available with helping out, being around. You call them tactics...why do you see him as so manipulative rather than just someone courting a woman he's interested in?

he has known us for a while and knew we were not open to new romantic relationships.
i say tactics because she was forthcoming in saying she was not wanting another man, he shifted from the overt flirting to more behind the scenes type stuff.
he helped me out, but after looking at the whole picture over time, there was more to it.
she has not hidden her phone and leaves it unlocked, she has never stopped me from answering a call or saying "hey, you got a text from so and so". i saw their texts (just snippets when it would go off and she was in the other room) and she was not doing anything, but i saw his....inuendo, heart images, all the things you do in a new relationship, but he knew that wasn't on the table and did it anyway.
then the rest began to make sense. if she couldn't come out for some reason, miraculously he would not show either. but M let me know he came over alone instead of coming to the show. even gave a story to his relative (another regular singer) that he was elsewhere so he wouldn't get caught.ashleycumstar gangbangashleycumstar gangbang

Are you afraid he wants to be a cowboy? Break up your relationship and her burgeoning one with A?

yes. outside of being at the venue for karaoke and the times he moved my gear, i have never seen him. he never comes over to the house when I'm here, only when she is alone. i didn't think he would have done this in the first place, so my trust is non existent.

You don't like her having feels for another man - why is this threatening? You clearly love two people of the same gender, so why the hypocrisy?

i'm not to get the feels for another woman either, not that i have one, but that was the rules we established.
i do love two people, but when we became the family we are, i was already married to L, and M was good with the family dynamic like that.

You've said that you don't mind having threesomes with another guy and you're involved, but is it the idea that they'll want sex without you there to supervise that's the issue?

i'm not sure, this is something i will have to roll over in my brain. i know my own insecurities have to do with it, and struggling to get my anxiety and medication resistant depression under control fuels the fire. so part of it at least, i'm afraid of losing her. if i'm there i can...for lack of a better word, protect her, or protect what's mine, not so much her as it is my relationship. back to him being a cowboy.

What are you afraid of happening? That she'll get SA'd?

sorry, i can't answer as i don't know what SA'd means. but what am i afraid of happening? losing her.

Or that she'll have a good time with another penis without yours there?

i don't mind her enjoying another penis at all, i enjoy it when she does.

Or that the pillow talk would be threatening to your relationship?

definitely

That for some reason she'd leave you for him permanently?

yes, again, back to being a cowboy.

Is this different to her eventually having sex and pillow talk with feels with A without you there? Or would you supervise that too? Or is A "safe" because she's married?

i do see it differently, not just that A is married, which DOES help some, but she can give M something i can not, just like i can give M something A can not. i have no vagina, she has no penis.

Why did you decree that M's heart is off limits to another man but not to another woman?

not just M, all three of us were of the same mindset. if i decided to try going bi, they would let me with no issues because there is something i can get from him that i can not get from them. but another woman, M would want to be there for it.

Was this an agreement between you after the breakdown of her previous relationship?

i can not tell you when it came about, it's been 13 years and that gets a bit foggy.

Do you and M have a D/s or M/s thing here that is under threat?

sorry again, D/s or M/s are terms i am not familiar with

Is that why you were so certain she'd never let him in the door?

i was certain because we had discussed it, especially when he ramped up his texting and coming by the house (not that anything could happen with 4 kids running around) and she tried to reassure me that nothing would happen and i let her know that i 100% believed that she would cut him off if he tried. she agreed. this goes back to the manipulation, he was getting blocked so he changed tactics.

What is it about HIM that you really hate so much.

he knew good and well we were not open to another relationship, his relative even confronted him once saying "what the hell are you doing? that's B's wife".
i'd look over to the flirting and as soon as he saw me look his hand shot right back to his side, he didn't want me to see it. that alone removes all my trust in him.

You describe him as a puppy dog, a flirt, a helper and a groomer. Really? All of those? They seem a bit incongruous.

puppy dog (M's term) and a flirt is where it began and we thought it was cool to see someone that attracted to her. the helper only came after he got confronted by family and saw me looking at him with her. he needed a way to get in her good graces (for lack of a better term). the groomer came after that when he really got to hiding everything he was doing from me.

Is there something about him that is holding a mirror up to something about you that you don't like looking at? That's usually why we take a dislike to people, they show us something about ourselves that is uncomfortable to see.

not that i know of, with him i see a guy who was told she was married and not wanting anyone else. he ignored that.
he was caught and called out, he ignored that.
he began working harder and more on the down low behind my back.
then he started waiting for her to go to the bathroom at the venue and run to the hallway to "just happen" to catch her coming out and talk for a few minutes out of earshot.
then i saw him this weekend at the show, M wasn't there (which he did not know was happening) and she had already come out and told me. he didn't say a word to me all night, he KNEW he fucked up.

note: I'm asking all the hard questions to see if any of them ping you enough that you identify the real issue here.

and i appreciate that, i'm trying to wrap my head around all of this. we have never been in this situation before as we have been a closed V this whole time (as far as romantic entanglement, nobody was interested in adding anyone else to the mix). i'm open to the idea, but it's him that i take real issue with. if we change just the poly part, so she was married to one person in a monogamous relationship, all of these things he did would be shady and disrespectful, but somehow telling him she is not available does not demand the same respect....this is where i get lost.

 

[Magdlyn]

We are 13 years into the lifestyle and love it.

By lifestyle, you mean swinging? This board is called polyamory.com. We are not focused on swinging here.

I have paraphrased your OP a bit, and added names where you put initials, for clarity.

I (Male 48) have been married to Lara (Female 48) for nearly 21 years now. 13 years ago, our best friend, Mary, finally left her emotionally abusive husband. I joked about becoming the next Sister Wives show. Lara said, "I would do that with Mary. Who will treat her better than us?" We had been swingers for many years, which is how we met Mary in the first place.

So you moved Mary into your house as your second partner 13 years ago? Lara is straight, but perhaps you do sexual threesomes, with you, the male, as the focus. The three of you are a polyamorous V. There is love, right?

We are a V with me as the hinge. Lara and I are straight. Mary is bisexual.

We have 4 kids, 2 with Lara, 2 with Mary, but all mine.

You're the father of four children, two with your wife Lara, and two with your gf/nesting partner Mary.

Mary has said she wants to explore her bi side some more, as she never got the chance in school or in other relationships, as most of us would have.

Oh, I don't think "most of us" have done this, necessarily... But anyway,

We know Ashley, the girl she is in love with. She is a wonderful friend, along with her husband Bob, whom I love as much as a straight man can love another guy. Bob only wants Ashley to be with other women, giving her something that a man is not capable of.

So, it's polyamory between Mary and Ashley. And Bob is on board. So far, so good.

Saturday nights are my nights out with Mary. She loves to sing and we have many mutual friends at this particular venue. She sits at a table right next to me.

While you are DJing? You're on a date with her, but you're actually working, so you aren't giving her that much attention?

I have been seeing this new guy getting closer with Mary, a little harmless flirting, but nothing concerning. I had full confidence that he would not cross that line, and even if he did, she would shut him down in a second.

So, you are not on board with Mary being with other men, just with other women, to "explore her bi side." Why? It seems like both you and Bob only want your wives/gfs to be with other women. Bob decrees Ashley can only have your NP Mary (or other women), and you decree that Mary can only have Ashley (or other women).

I've been pointing out the "puppy dog" way he is acting, and saying "Be careful. He wants you." He has helped out. When I had double hernia surgery, he spent the next 6 weeks moving all my equipment from bar to bar, gave me a ride after closing, as my new medication caused some bad side effects not conducive to driving.

So new guy, let's call him Ted, has been a good friend, but you don't like him getting romantic with "your" woman Mary.

Mary sits down and tells me she has very strong feelings for Ashley. I'm happy she is exploring another part of herself.

Two women together is not a threat. In fact, for a straight guy, it's hot. We call this the "one-penis policy." It generally doesn't fly in polyamory.

Then she says she has very strong feelings for Ted.

He has been "grooming" M for a long time...

Grooming, huh? That makes it sound very sinister.

I always had 100% certainty that she would never let him get in the door. They talk often, he'll reach over and run his fingers on her knee, the puppy dog eyes filled with infatuation. It's all pretty cool to me because, what better compliment than someone else looking at my wife and thinking "Damn, I want her"?

Oh, it's okay if it's just flirting, in fact, that's an ego boost for you, having something another man wants. (And I see you consider Mary your wife, even though you're not legally married.)

I thought she would never fall for his tactics,

"Tactics, grooming"... It can't just be love?

but she has had a long battle with her self image and worth. She honestly did not think he REALLY wanted her. She doesn't think guys would (she is a larger BBW) be interested in her.

Lots of men/people like women of size. (You do!) You make her sound very weak. Of course, it's not uncommon for women of size to be hard on themselves. But now Mary has YOU and TED both wanting her. Obviously curvy gals can be hot and desirable. You want Ted to desire her, but "look, don't touch." However, Mary has "strong feelings" for him.

We are the opposite of most here. Physically, I'm good with other guys being with her, as long as I'm involved.

No, that's not like "most here." Did you post this on swinging boards originally? Have you read around here, to know what "most here" are like? We are not a board for swingers. In fact, most polyamorous people do not take part in group sex. This is a board for actually loving multiple people, not having casual one-on-one sex (hookups) or group sex.

It's the feels that I kept off limits, and because of what I saw him doing, he was off limits. He's already got the feels, so no go.

So, swinging (with men) is okay, but not polyamory (with men), for some reason. You do know this board is for polyamorists, right? In polyamory, one partner does not get to dictate what their other partner feels. Love is the point.

Her heart is off limits. He is off limits. Other than, that we are fine.

That one little thing. Ted could "play" with Mary in a threesome with you, so you can keep an eye on things, and get your jollies from the voyeurism. But how dare he love "your" woman?

i kick myself now for not intervening earlier, but i honestly never thought she would get hornswaggled by him.

"Hornswoggled"? She fell in love with a nice helpful devoted guy who truly seems to care about her, not just want her body.

I want to be happy for her. I want to see her happy, but now it is the ONE thing that was off limits (her heart), and the ONE guy that was off limits.

i know she did not try for this.

We don't "try" to fall in love. It just happens.

I know, without a doubt, that HE worked on this on purpose for a long time to get her, fully pre-meditated. I will never be convinced otherwise. Everything he did was to gain her favor (the rides, moving the gear, etc.).

Hey, he cares about her. He isn't necessarily a mustache-twirling villain here. I don't see an indication of him tricking her into falling in love. That's kind of a weird thought.

i have never felt this level of pain. not just the heart, not just the emotions, but a real physical pain.
They have done nothing but talk.
i wish i could have compersion for her, and i think i could...if it was literally ANYBODY ELSE.

Anyone who didn't actually care for her heart and her soul? You'd prefer any other swinger who stays in his lane, casual sex only, with you there in a threeway format.

She knows how hurt i am. We have talked it over rather heavily. She is at a standstill with him until/unless i give the ok.
I have NEVER tried to tell her what she can and can not do, who she can talk to, or control her in any way like that (bedroom is different).
i'm terrified of pushing her away by saying "hell no", but i just can't go along with it being HIM.

i don't know what i'm looking for here. i really just need a good community of poly-friendly people to hopefully help me navigate this cluster. i'm in much pain and lost.

This is a board for polyamory, and so, hearts and souls and LOVE are encouraged, not prevented, or seen as a bad thing. The gender doesn't matter. Two women, two men, a man and a woman, or any other gender, falling in love, is fine. And celebrated.

 

[Magdlyn]

Now I've read your other post and Evie's post.

I see you call Mary your wife, while you're not actually married. But others in your friends group are supposed to consider her your "wife," and "taken," except for her "thing" with Ashley. Is that thing between Mary and Ashley just sex/friendship, with no feelings "allowed"? So you still consider you're in a V, while it's actually a N?

We have never been in this situation before, as we have been a closed V this whole time, as far as romantic entanglement. Nobody was interested in adding anyone else to the mix).

I am confused. You really make a distinction between men and women. Other women are not a threat. Other men ARE a threat, unless you are involved, and one of "your" women is just having casual threesome sex with such men, where your "ownership" of the women is obvious.

You will be vigilant that no other man gets enough feelings for one of your "women/wives," and/or vice versa, that he will stand a chance of "stealing" her, kidnapping her.

I'm open to the idea, but it's him that I take real issue with. If we change just the poly part, so she was married to one person in a monogamous relationship, all of these things he did would be shady and disrespectful, but somehow telling him she is not available does not demand the same respect. This is where I get lost.

I suggest "Ted" saw "your wife" Mary (who is not legally married to you) at the bar having fun with friends. You are her nesting partner (you call yourself her husband), but you're working onstage (singing, DJing, whatever). Perhaps he sees her as available, despite technically knowing she is off limits. I agree that, if he definitely knew Mary was in a poly-fi-V-except-for-other-women, he might be pushing things. And you thought you understood that Mary would "never" be with another man. But it turns out this flirting and attention, while initially pleasing to your ego, has developed into both Mary and Ted falling for each other, and wanting a real relationship. (After all, it was great for Mary's ego too!)

We get people coming here several times a month, who have been swinging, but fall into polyamory, and then struggle. Here is another current one. https://polyamory.com/threads/looki...om-or-outside-perspective.158012/#post-515965

I suggest you take a look at our Golden Nuggets section, where we have a list of reading resources. You might want to learn more about the differences between swinging, open relationships and polyamory. They all fall under the umbrella of ethical non-monogamy, but have decided differences. The book Opening Up goes into this in detail.

You could also search the term "swinging" or "swinger" here, to read many more experiences of people who have struggled in your boat.

 

[Evie]

SA'd - sexually assaulted

D/s Dominant/submissive
(M/s is a version of this)

Bottom line seems to be that you have different rules about men and women. You're fine with her falling for A but not for this guy. It doesn't seem like you can honestly call yourself an emotionally closed V when it's okay for M to have feelings for A.

You justify this with saying that A can give M something you can't, a vagina, a different experience of sex. Yes. But the guy can give M something you can't, too. A different penis. A different experience of sex. Your argument here is weak

But your observations around his potentially coyboyish behaviour - I'll give you that. He knew what was on the table (group sex, managed by you) and what was off (enough flirting that she caught feels) and he deliberately chose the latter.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello gvrnmtwrng,

Sometimes people enter into an interaction with each other, with the intent to keep it casual, but then romantic feelings unexpectedly arise. This is what has happened to M. I'm sorry she can't be with this new fella in any way, but the bottom line is that you have said no, and she has agreed to abide by that. That's how consent works. But I guess you are in pain because she does have feelings for this guy, she can't just switch that off. I don't know if you would feel better if he was completely removed from her life, not that I know how that would happen. Would you feel better if you could talk to him directly and demand that he stop pursuing her? or has that ship sailed, since she now has feelings for him and there is no way to switch that off? What else is there that can be tried? Is breaking up with her an option, and would that ease the pain, or make it worse? I am sorry you are caught in this situation.

Sympathy and regards,
Kevin T.

 

[gvrnmtwrng]

Hello gvrnmtwrng,

Sometimes people enter into an interaction with each other, with the intent to keep it casual, but then romantic feelings unexpectedly arise. This is what has happened to Mary.

Yeah, that's what happened.

I'm sorry she can't be with this new fella in any way, but the bottom line is that you have said no, and she has agreed to abide by that.

And I don't want to be like that. I love her and want to see her happy. With this guy is the issue I'm getting caught at. I've been saying to her that he wants her for his own, and I still have that in the forefront of my mind. I firmly believe he doesn't just want her, he wants her for his own, just him.

That's how consent works. But I guess you are in pain because she does have feelings for this guy, she can't just switch that off. I don't know if you would feel better if he was completely removed from her life, not that I know how that would happen.

Would I feel better that way? Yes and no. Yes, because I can no longer worry about him working to split us up, but no, because I know it would make her unhappy to see him go. This is where I get stuck.

Would you feel better if you could talk to him directly and demand that he stop pursuing her? Or has that ship sailed, since she now has feelings for him and there is no way to switch that off?

I can't demand he stop. We are too far into it for that without breaking her heart.

What else is there that can be tried? Is breaking up with her an option, and would that ease the pain, or make it worse?

Not in any way, whatsoever. That would even create a bigger pain of losing the woman I love so much.

I am sorry you are caught in this situation.

I'm trying to look at it differently. As I said, I don't want to be this way. I want to be more like L, who is happy to see M and me happy, not just as a couple, but individually happy.

For the above commenters mentioning calling her my wife: I DO consider her my wife, and she considers me her husband. The only difference between my marriage to Lara and my marriage to Mary is a government license. Everything else is exactly the same. We had a wedding, she changed her last name, we all live together as one family, not mom and step mom, two moms. Not one sibling and two half siblings, they are all brothers and sisters, not step brothers and step sisters.

 

[Magdlyn]

I love her and want to see her happy. With this guy is the issue I'm getting caught at. I've been saying to her that he wants her for his own, and I still have that in the forefront of my mind. I firmly believe he doesn't just want her, he wants her for his own, just him.

Well, he can want her for his own, but this isn't really a "Ted problem," it's a "Mary problem." If she wants to be with you, she has to understand that her choices are
1. She can tell Ted to get lost.
2. She can cheat and lie and carry on with him behind your back.
3. She can have (casual?) sex with Ted with you in the room supervising somehow (or with you in the bed, also participating?).
4. She can leave you.

You won't consent to Mary having an individual relationship with Ted, as Mary does with Ashley. And I think the reason why is, you believe he "wants her for his own." You don't want him to have her unless you can watch, or participate in their sex. Somehow though, Mary can have sex with Ashley and you don't have to watch or participate! There's something magical about Ted being a man... and you claim it's not his penis, it's... something else. I think that bears contemplating.

Does Mary understand any of this?
- She can have a one-on-one relationship and sex with:
You
- She can have a one-on-one relationship and sex with:
Ashley
- She can be in threesome sex scenarios with:
You and Lara (even though Lara is straight).
-She can be in threesome sex with:
You and Ted (although I gather Ted doesn't want this).
- But she can't have one-on-one sex (or dates?) with:
Ted, because you insist on chaperoning or participating.

Would Ted not be content to be one of her partners, and date her individually, taking turns with you, and Ashley (and the threesome stuff with Lara)? Has he declared he wants to kidnap her and ride her off into the sunset, just the two of them?

Would I feel better that way? Yes and no. Yes, because I can no longer worry about him working to split us up, but no, because I know it would make her unhappy to see him go. This is where I get stuck.

I can't demand he stop. We are too far into it for that without breaking her heart.

Not in any way, whatsoever. That would even create a bigger pain of losing the woman I love so much.

I'm trying to look at it differently. As I said, I don't want to be this way. I want to be more like L, who is happy to see M and me happy, not just as a couple, but individually happy.

Why can't you be happy with Mary dating Ted one-on-one? Do you not trust her? Do you think she is on the verge of dumping you? She didn't dump you when she started dating Ashley. If she is poly, why would she dump you for Ted? I don't get it. Sometimes you have to take that leap of faith.

I consider her my wife, and she considers me her husband. The only difference between my marriage to L and my marriage to M is a government license. Everything else is exactly the same. We had a wedding, she changed her last name, we all live together as one family, not mom and step mom, two moms. Not one sibling and two half siblings, they are all brothers and sisters, not step brothers and step sisters.

Okay.

 

[gvrnmtwrng]

Magdlyn,

"Has he declared he wants to kidnap her and ride her off into the sunset, just the two of them?"

No. he did not declare that he wanted to date her either, but here we are.

I would love to be happy for her dating, for her to be happy however that comes about. There is no other way for me to put it, I'm terrified. I know she did not go looking for someone. She wasn't even interested in another guy. As time went on, he began to be less overt about it and more behind my back, at the shows, grabbing his phone and going out back "to smoke", but ONLY when M had left to the bathroom, never any other time. He always left his phone on the table with the others, not anymore. I say "to smoke," because he wasn't actually doing that, he was running into the hallway by the bathrooms to catch her coming out in an area I can't see unless i walk to the area to look.

She truly had no idea this was happening because he wanted her. She would roll her eyes at the thought because she doesn't believe she is attractive enough to catch someone else's eye. She is incredibly wrong, She is beautiful and sexy and intelligent, sweet, a great lover and confidant.

Ted was the one doing everything, and then doing it behind my back, lying about where he was going so he didn't get busted, magically appearing at the house JUUUUUST after I went to work and leaving JUUUUST before I get home. (She swears nothing has happened, and I believe her completely).

It became more calculated, especially after one relative called him out, and even his mother said, "That is your friend's wife. What the hell is wrong with you?" (which is almost the exact thing his other relative said to him about it). So he began to hide it.

I do not trust him in any way whatsoever. He wasn't going to cross the well-known and voiced line to go for her, but he did, and did so on purpose, fully pre-meditated, but got shadier and more focused on purposely crossing that line, ignoring everything.

I want her happy. I just don't know how to reconcile all the new of this. But I also don't get the pushback about "why not him?"

A poly wife can veto another woman. Reading a whole lot of threads here, I see it. It may not be the norm, but it is all over in here. And the husband who is ignoring his wife's veto is labeled as the bad guy. Switch roles and the husband who vetoes another guy is labeled the bad guy.
Why?

Another woman is a homewrecker. but another guy is not. What am I missing?

Again, I DO WANT TO BE HAPPY FOR HER, I REALLY AM TRYING, but the person who got shadier, more hidden, going behind my back, lying so he can get near her alone, is one I can not see myself trusting to not do the same thing again. We have what I think is the best family that I could ever ask for. I am terrified that he will continue and steal the woman I have been so lucky to share a life with.

Yes, fear is very strong. I hope the elaboration of his changing methods and shady behind my back work sheds a little more light on why it's not as much another man in general, but THIS ONE MAN.

I know I have issues to work through on this, but when a guy does shit like this, how do I relax?

 

[Magdlyn]

Okay, so this guy (whom I call Ted, for clarity) is doing things, trying to hide his pursuit of Mary. He can do that.

You can express your fears to Mary about him. Have you done that???

The thing you are missing, in my opinion, is your trust of MARY, your actual partner. Who cares what Ted's intentions are? Who cares whether you have a veto or not? Who cares whether Ted is a "homewrecker" or "cowboy"?

WHAT DOES MARY WANT?

Maybe she likes his attention. Maybe SHE enjoys the thrill of sneaking around. Maybe she wants a guy who is just into her, for a change. She has shared you with your legal wife for 13 years. Maybe she thought, as many women do, "Sure, my husband/bf thinks I am nice looking, attractive, this and that. What does he know? He loves me." But she gets more validation when a newcomer enters the picture. As I said, he is feeding her ego.

My advice is to focus on Mary. This Ted can't literally kidnap her. (Well, he can, but he isn't going to actually do that, I don't think.) It's Mary's choice to date him. It's Mary's choice to date him one-on-one, to have sex with him alone, not with you tagging along in the room or bed! (In other words, she may not just want a casual swinger-type threeway sex scene-- she wants what most people do, intimate sex between just two people.)

Never mind Ted's intentions. Never mind suspiciously watching him running around the bar after Mary. Never mind where he leaves his phone. Sheesh. What does Mary want? She's having him over to the house while you're gone? What's she doing? Just ask her. Get to the bottom of it.

If she wants a male lover to herself, what exactly is wrong with that? She can have two male lovers. If she's polyamorous, she can love you, love Ashley, and love Ted, and want to be in relationships with all of you. It's not a game of "choose the best one." That's monogamy.

I am guessing my words will fall on deaf ears, because all you can think is, "I hate Ted, he's sketchy, he wants to kidnap my poor innocent woman who has no will of her own."

It's easy to blame the new person, thinking of them as the invader, the interloper. It's easy for you to hate Ted. It's much harder to address the situation with your actual partner and what she wants.

 

[Inaniel]

I will go against the grain and say that I think it's a bad idea to bring-in a meta who shows a lack of respect into your situation. Your instincts are flashing red alarm bells for a reason. You are allowed to trust your instincts.

Polyamory circles often emphasize personal autonomy, at least on the surface. Ironically, this is the only website I can think of that doesn’t actually give its users autonomy over their own content. What I’m saying is, there’s some hypocrisy behind the curtain. Don’t let that shame you and take it all with a grain of salt.

Mary is participating in the sneaking around. This could be an indication that the OPP is no longer working for her, which should trigger new discussions. Observable boundaries thereafter should be congruent with what you both commit to, otherwise something still isn't right...

Whether veto's are on the table is also a discussion you both need to have together. It really, really, doesn't matter what online strangers think about it... You and Mary get to decide how your relationship works.

You are allowed to talk to Mary about your perception of how this all went down. Listen to her side and take it into consideration.

You are going to have to make a choice one way or another. Be the "bad guy" and try to control this thing, or take the leap of faith and work on yourself as it plays out. Don’t worry too much about strangers perceiving you as the “bad guy.” Every man is the "bad guy" one way or another in the eyes of someone on this planet. You choose your values. Your life is your responsibility. And if you have partners who choose you every day, you’re doing something right.

The time to begin having these heart-to-heart conversations was 6 months ago. Don't wait any longer.

 

[gvrnmtwrng]

Okay, so this guy (whom I call Ted, for clarity) is doing things, trying to hide his pursuit of Mary. He can do that.

can you elaborate why in a community and lifestyle that is based around mutual trust and respect, sneaking around (the exact opposite of trust and respect) is ok but questioning it is not?

You can express your fears to Mary about him. Have you done that???

yes i have, before she even began to believe he might be interrested. i was saying this for a while.

The thing you are missing, in my opinion, is your trust of MARY, your actual partner. Who cares what Ted's intentions are? Who cares whether you have a veto or not? Who cares whether Ted is a "homewrecker" or "cowboy"?

who cares if Ted's intentions are to pull this family apart....perfectly acceptable.

WHAT DOES MARY WANT?

i'm not sure on this one, i'm still getting through the first few days of "this goes against the rules we had set". but as i have said numerous times here, i do want her to be happy, nobody would realistically want their love to be unhappy.
i don't know how to do that, which is why i am, as the title says, not handling this well.

Maybe she likes his attention.

of course, who wouldn't

Maybe SHE enjoys the thrill of sneaking around.

sneaking around behind your partners back is a good thing now?

Maybe she wants a guy who is just into her, for a change. She has shared you with your legal wife for 13 years.

totally plausible

Maybe she thought, as many women do, "Sure, my husband/bf thinks I am nice looking, attractive, this and that. What does he know? He loves me." But she gets more validation when a newcomer enters the picture. As I said, he is feeding her ego.

again, totally plausible.

My advice is to focus on Mary. This Ted can't literally kidnap her. (Well, he can, but he isn't going to actually do that, I don't think.) It's Mary's choice to date him. It's Mary's choice to date him one-on-one, to have sex with him alone, not with you tagging along in the room or bed! (In other words, she may not just want a casual swinger-type threeway sex scene-- she wants what most people do, intimate sex between just two people.)

and i am. i guess my question here would be do other partners matter at all? 13 years together and in 30 seconds the entire relationship turned upside down, boundaries crossed, trust broken, but i should not only be unaffected by that , i should embrace that and keep my feelings to myself. mary and Ted's feelings matter and should be considered (i do agree) but not mine?

Never mind Ted's intentions. Never mind suspiciously watching him running around the bar after Mary. Never mind where he leaves his phone. Sheesh.

again, mutual trust and respect. how do i see it all happening and not have issues with it? how do i go about that?

What does Mary want? She's having him over to the house while you're gone? What's she doing? Just ask her. Get to the bottom of it.

she swears they have not even kissed and are just binging tv shows. i believe her. with 4 kids between 8 and 16 in the house there isn't really any way for something to happen without myself or Lara being home to watch the kids (especially our 8 year old with autism who need constant supervision).

If she wants a male lover to herself, what exactly is wrong with that? She can have two male lovers. If she's polyamorous, she can love you, love Ashley, and love Ted, and want to be in relationships with all of you. It's not a game of "choose the best one." That's monogamy.

i know you are right, we have not even mentioned the possibility of opening up to others for real romantic relationships. it has not come up or been brought up by any of us. this was a blind kick out of the blue, why is it so wrong to be hurt by "oh, by the way, i know we are not letting other people in but..."? i know her feelings are important and count. i am trying to learn how to let that happen, that is why i am here. why are mine unimportant?

I am guessing my words will fall on deaf ears, because all you can think is, "I hate Ted, he's sketchy, he wants to kidnap my poor innocent woman who has no will of her own."

there are no boundaries in your relationships at all? if you saw someone trying to tear your relationship apart with Pixie or Aries you would stay silent and just let it happen? THAT is where i'm at right now. she is not a "poor innocent woman who has no will of her own." not at all, but especially in a new relationship it is very common to see what you want to see and not what you don't. the negatives get pushed aside and we only see the positives. how many times have we all watched a friend or acquaintance get into a new relationship dripping with NRE as we look in and go "oh boy, this not going to be good" because we all see what is there minus the rose colored glasses of NRE, while to person knee deep in NRE doesn't see any of it. it doesn't mean they are dumb or stupid, just blinded by NRE as most people tend, that's half the great energy of it. i don't know to look at the woman i love and in my head say "he's shady, he's dishonest, he's disrespectful, he's going to hurt her and quite possibly the entire family, but, meh."

It's easy to blame the new person, thinking of them as the invader, the interloper. It's easy for you to hate Ted. It's much harder to address the situation with your actual partner and what she wants.

Back to the beginning-- this isn't some outside person who hasn't met us all as a family yet. This is a man who has known us for several years and knows our family dynamic, knows our boundaries, but does not believe they are worth anything and need to be respected. THAT'S why I'm having such a hard time with it being him. If it were someone who did not know about us, that is easier to look past. I can't get mad at someone for not even KNOWING there were boundaries, let alone knowing what they are. How do I look at someone who says, "I know your boundaries, I know your dynamic, but who cares, as long as I get what I want?" and be happy about it, encourage it, want to see it grow? How do I do that?

 

[Magdlyn]

Can you elaborate why in a community and lifestyle that is based around mutual trust and respect, sneaking around (the exact opposite of trust and respect) is ok, but questioning it is not?

I don't think sneaking around is okay, in polyamory or monogamy. I think Mary has given him a kind of green light, despite you and her apparently well-known boundaries around her dating other men. I can't tell if Ted is a great person or not. I just wonder more about your partner/wife of 13 years, why she is encouraging him. That is just the burning question, to me.

In polyamory, especially, when a negotiated boundary becomes constricting, you're supposed to open it up to be discussed and perhaps changed. Maybe Mary has changed in her feelings about new relationships and sex. After all these years of having sex with a straight man and a straight woman, she's now doing one-on-one sex with a bisexual woman. Maybe that was the crack in the dam, and now she wants to have a one-on-one thing with another guy, no more of this limited OPP ("you can have another penis if I get to watch, but you can't actually date him or have intimate one-on-one time"). That would be unacceptable to me, for example. My taste is always for one-on-one sex with the person I choose of whatever gender.

Maybe Mary is afraid of bringing it up with you.

Yes, I have, before she even began to believe he might be interested. I was saying this for a while.

Who cares if Ted's intentions are to pull this family apart? Perfectly acceptable!

Again, what matters is what Mary thinks, since she is part of your family. If she didn't want Ted's close attention, she could tell him to back off. She could approach you to renegotiate boundaries... something!

I'm not sure on this one. I'm still getting through the first few days of "This goes against the rules we had set."

So you two have opened the conversation, but haven't really gotten into it yet. The next question, after both of you agreeing this "goes against the rules" is to ask, "So this 'rule' is no longer working? Mary, to be happy, do you want to renegotiate this agreement and start to enjoy one-on-one dating/sex with Ted, or any man of your choice?" If you can bring yourself to ask her that, she has choices: she can be honest and say no, or she can be honest and say yes, or she can lie and say no. And you go from there, trying to figure out the real problem and the truth, and ultimately, the new plan, going forward.

But as I have said numerous times here, I do want her to be happy. Nobody would realistically want their love to be unhappy. I don't know how to do that, which is why I am, as the title says, not handling this well.

This is just my opinion, but, to make this less confusing, you need to ask her what she needs to be happy, and she needs to trust you enough to be honest about it. Again, maybe she's afraid of you. And the more afraid she is, the more she avoids the talk, and the more she "sneaks around" with Ted.

Of course, who wouldn't [enjoy Ted's attention]?

Well, I don't know. If some guy was a sneaky creep, I wouldn't want his attention.

Sneaking around behind your partners back is a good thing now?

Nope, it's not good for either of them to be sneaking around.

totally plausible

again, totally plausible.

I am. i guess my question here would be-- do other partners matter at all? 13 years together and in 30 seconds the entire relationship turned upside down,

30 seconds? I thought this had been building over weeks here. Am I wrong?

Boundaries crossed, trust broken, but I should not only be unaffected by that, I should embrace that and keep my feelings to myself? Mary and Ted's feelings matter and should be considered (I do agree), but not mine?

If I didn't think your feelings mattered I wouldn't be talking to you. What boundaries have been crossed, exactly? You say below all they've done is watch TV with the kids? He's followed her around the bar like a puppy? Maybe you've spied on them talking deeply, Mary giggling and blushing?

Again, mutual trust and respect. How do I see it all happening and not have issues with it? How do I go about that?

She swears they have not even kissed and are just binging TV shows. I believe her. With 4 kids between 8 and 16 in the house, there isn't really any way for something to happen without me or Lara being home to watch the kids.

So is this a terrible thing? Could you tell Mary that you're fine with her and Ted watching TV with the kids? Could you ask her if she wants more?

I know you are right. We have not even mentioned the possibility of opening up to others for real romantic relationships. It has not come up or been brought up by any of us. This was a blind kick out of the blue. Why is it so wrong to be hurt by, "Oh, by the way, I know we are not letting other people in, but..."?

"Letting other people in to 'our' relationship?" This would be Mary's relationship. I don't believe in "adding a person to OUR relationship." That kind of talk muddies the waters. Have you added Ashley to YOUR relationship, or is she just dating Mary?

I hear you feel like you've been blindsided by Mary's interest in Ted. You never expected her to ever catch feelings for another man, despite you having two women, despite Mary now having a new female lover? People get crushes all the time. Even mono people get crushes. Maybe Mary has been too busy being a mom until now to have the bandwidth for a new lover, but now she's different-- her energy, her libido, her hormones, have changed. That can certainly happen to a woman in her early 40s. (It did to me!)

I know her feelings are important and count. I am trying to learn how to let that happen. That is why I am here. Why are mine unimportant?

I hear you believe your feelings are unimportant. Mary participating in this flirtation with Ted makes you feel unimportant? Are you frustrated she won't clarify for you what is going on better?

There are no boundaries in your relationships at all? If you saw someone trying to tear your relationship apart with Pixie or Aries you would stay silent and just let it happen?

Continued in next post.

 

[Magdlyn]

Well, I've never had that happen, in the 16.5 years I've been with Pixi or the 3.5 years with Aries. I know I am super important and desirable as a partner to both of them. I trust them 100%. No other person can just somehow "tear" them away from me. Relationships just don't work like that.

Thinking back to 2012-2014-- a narcissist bf of mine (before I realized he was one) tried to triangulate Pixi and me for a while, for his own perverted entertainment, but it just made her and me trust him less. It didn't affect us, our trust, our solid relationship. Once we realized what was going on, he was the one that got dumped. (He was doing other shitty things by that point, as well.) He had no power to take her away from me, or vice versa. lol. Ridiculous. We aren't naive maidens.

I have had bfs of mine be interested in Pixi, in threesomes with her and me. (In our beginning, we experimented with group sex a bit.) A FF bi couple is catnip to men. But no one ever tried to "steal" one of us from the other. Those kinds of bfs don't last long. We aren't a package deal, nor are we looking to break up. We are a great match and entirely in love.

I don't know if Ted is trying to tear Mary away from you, for monogamy... I don't know why, if she knew he was, that she would continue to invite him into her life. I hope you find out soon.

THAT is where I'm at right now. She is not a "poor innocent woman who has no will of her own," not at all. But especially in a new relationship, it is very common to see what you want to see and not what you don't. The negatives get pushed aside and we only see the positives. How many times have we all watched a friend or acquaintance get into a new relationship dripping with NRE, as we look in and go, "Oh boy, this not going to be good," because we all see what is there, minus the rose-colored glasses of NRE, while the person knee-deep in NRE doesn't see any of it? It doesn't mean they are dumb or stupid, just blinded by NRE. I don't know how to look at the woman I love, and in my head say, "He's shady, he's dishonest, he's disrespectful, he's going to hurt her and quite possibly the entire family, but, meh."

Yeah, I totally get your point. Mary is untried. You thought she had good taste in men... she chose you! But maybe this Ted is a piece of shit. I don't believe in vetoes, though. I would offer my opinion to a lover or friend if someone they were getting tight with seemed undesirable or untrustworthy, but some people need to make their own mistakes. If my lover chose a REALLY bad person, and I thought they were in danger of being outright abused or killed, that might be different. They might need a real intervention. But most of the time, a person's true colors don't take that long to come out. Sometimes when you tell someone you don't like their dating person, they get defensive and cling to them tighter.

Back to the beginning-- this isn't some outside person who hasn't met us all as a family yet. This is a man who has known us for several years, and knows our family dynamic, knows our boundaries, but does not believe they are worth anything and need to be respected.

Yeah, that's odd. But Mary is your wife and doesn't think your "known boundaries" are working either? It does sound to me like she's outgrown them, but is afraid to renegotiate. You have more "pull" with her than you do with Ted. So I hope you and she can sit down and get to the bottom of this. She is encouraging Ted, or at least, not discouraging him, right?

THAT'S why I'm having such a hard time with it being him. If it were someone who did not know about us, that is easier to look past. I can't get mad at someone for not even KNOWING there were boundaries, let alone knowing what they are. How do I look at someone who says, "I know your boundaries, I know your dynamic, but who cares, as long as I get what I want?" and be happy about it, encourage it, want to see it grow? How do I do that?

Is Ted saying that? Or are you imagining those are his thoughts? Are you thinking of having a man-to-man talk with Ted, and telling him to get away from "your" woman? Is that what you think is best?

Or should you first find out why "your" woman, who knows the "rules," is seemingly breaking them instead of renegotiating them? She's probably afraid to rock the boat. Afraid you'll dump her, maybe. Maybe she feels like a bad person for developing feelings for another guy, against the "rules."