Looking for some polyam wisdom or outside perspective.

[Z3r0Cool]

TL;DR: My meta is suggesting that my BF take a step back from me so that my NP can "catch up" emotionally with the quad. I’m struggling to understand how reducing time with someone who makes me feel fulfilled helps my NP manage his insecurities and anxious attachment. My NP, despite his issues is not wanting me to get less time and is upset my meta would suggest that.

The question:
Has anyone been in a similar situation where a partner was asked to step back to make space for another's healing? Did it help or hurt? Would love any insight or shared experiences.


Some Backstory:
I know it's not a full picture and one sided here.

We have a quad dynamic with group dates, private time, and overnights. The private time is about 1-2x a month. Group time is double dates that may or may not end up in group play, but we splinter off with our non NP's at night. We get to do this at least once a month.

The exception was this last month where we got three weekends in a row and was a big issue. The second two were individual date nights, he gets Friday I get Saturday or the reverse) the date nights are not full days at all but are sleepovers; just trying to paint a clearer picture with time before I get into some of those issues.

Over the last several months My NP has unleashed significant insecurities and is working on them (therapy, med changes). His jealousy shows up in constant comparison, reassurance-seeking, and emotional dysregulation that has really worn me down. The last three weeks were hard on him and I understand wanting a weekend for himself in between. Mostly all of the dumping from him happen directly preceding or directly after my date night. I'm talking bf is not even out of the driveway yet and I get "I need to tell you all my feelings right now. I don't want you to change anything but the things you did make me feel this way and this way and this way etc" obviously paraphrasing here. Then the talks can be every day until the NP feels like he gets somewhat of a resolution or game plan. It turns into a lot of kitchen-sink type arguing. I feel this is being used as a control tactic to put very negative emotions in my head directly following good times with the BF.

My BF and I have strong love and chemistry, it's hard to ignore in person even if we aren't touching. Silly to say the electricity is in the air, but strangers walk up to us and comment on it! Fortunately the NPs haven't been around for that yet, but the passion they do see triggers them both. They are both anxious attached, more closely to the extreme end.

After the problems the last couple of weeks (medication induced problems) The meta thinks scaling back my time with BF will give NP space to "catch up." But I’m not convinced that sacrificing a joyful, healthy connection is the answer.

The BF and I want more time and are being given the option to choose less. We are already coming up with a proposal on what this might look like to have two days a week *3 hours one night and maybe 15 another if we get a work night as an overnight* while sparing weekends for the NP's and group dates. And yes I'm getting petty talking about hours because the other half keeps saying we spend days together.

I don't think my NP or meta truly want poly (even though he and the meta are the ones who started us down this path). I think they started it as a fun project, didn't really expect anyone to have deep feelings, told us to run with it, and now want to take it back and just go back to swinging fwb because they didn't know it would be so hard.

Just feels like everything is going to implode and I'm going to be forced to make tough decisions for myself that I don't want to have to make.

We do tons if research and reading, we are in couples therapy. Doing all the right things and it feels like over communicating all the time. Maybe that's the problem. Is over communication a thing? This is just turning into a complaint session now so I'll end it here. Thanks for reading.

 

[dingedheart]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Are you married to your nesting partner?
How long were you swingers before deciding to enter poly/being in this quad?
How long has this quad dynamic been up and running?

My issue with stepping back or cutting back to allow someone to "catch up" is that it’s deliberately artificial. It’s like faking an orgasm to boost someone’s ego. So for a couple weeks, or whatever, I’m going to stop seeing or doing whatever it was that triggered you, and at the same time, I’m going to put more time and energy/attention into you to make you feel better and more secure. Then, when the agreed-upon time is over, it's game on again, because the feelings and chemistry for the new partner haven’t changed.

Rinse repeat.

The only thing that’s changed is the nesting partner really liked the weeks or months, only to have it ripped away again.

IMO, your NP needs to toughen up and deal with the bumps and bruises of game conditions. Maybe some detangling is in order.

 

[Z3r0Cool]

We are married. So are they. We’ve been swingers for a very long time, off and on 18-ish years. We started seeing these two almost two years ago and became official after a lot of talks about boundaries and expectations ten months ago.

Thanks for the insight. That is how I feel about it! It’s just fluffing an ego, not really helping anything, and very likely could make it worse, like it was starting all over again for him. I think stepping back is the first step to breaking it off completely. Meta gets to use my NP's issues as an excuse for creating the distance in the relationship that she wants more of, IMO.

I don’t want to paint her as a bad person. She is a wonderful person; we are friends and I love her. She probably truly believes giving space will help. I will speculate that the anxiousness she feels on her side over me and her NP is playing into it also, and it just feels like a very convenient time to push for space.

My BF has said he doesn’t want them dictating our relationship, that we should keep planning dates, and let them know when, regardless of how they are going to treat each other distance-wise. But it already feels like things are changing, and quickly. I just got word that a weekend (that was supposedly them only, set for reconnection) has turned into another couple being invited over to their house for movie night on one of the nights. So I’m working through those feelings now this morning.

All fun stuff.

 

[Tinwen]

Based on the TLDR only: BF could thank Meta for the suggestion, but tell her there is no basis for it, since your NP didn't confirm it would help them. He could further investigate whether it's really Meta's need for him to pull back, and if so, have a hopefully more honest conversation.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello Z3r0Cool,

I think you are coming up against a hard wall of incompatibility; your NP and meta want one thing, and you and your BF want something else. Something that directly contradicts what NP and meta want. They want you to have less time with BF; you and BF want more time. I'm not sure how this contradiction can be resolved.

As for your NP, therapy and med changes are a BFD. I should know, I went through dozens of med changes and it wasn't fun -- neither for me nor for my partner and meta. And I had lots of therapy, also not fun, and minimally productive. After some ten plus years I went on Zyprexa, finally something that worked (although not 100%). My point is, your NP is going through a lot that has little if anything to do with your poly situation. The poly situation is just being used by him as his punching bag. You said it yourself: Your NP doesn't want you to scale back your time spent with your BF. This is your meta's crusade. But in the meantime, your NP is ruining your dates with your BF. So in a way, he is on board with meta's idea, he just doesn't want to admit it. But as I said, the poly situation is just his scapegoat, and his punching bag.

I don't think you should scale back,
Kevin T.

 

[dingedheart]

We are married. So are they. We’ve been swingers for a very long time, off and on 18-ish years. We started seeing these two almost two years ago and became official after a lot of talks about boundaries and expectations ten months ago.

To me, that looks on paper to be a solid start/foundation. Have boundaries been pushed and expectations dramatically changed?

Thanks for the insight. That is how I feel about it! It’s just fluffing an ego and not really helping anything and very likely could make it worse, like it was starting all over again for him. I think stepping back is the first step to breaking it off completely. Meta gets to use my NPs issues as an excuse for creating the distance in the relationship that she wants more of. IMO. I don’t want to paint her as a bad person. She is a wonderful person and we are friends and I love her, she probably truly believes giving space will help. I will speculate that the anxiousness she feels on her side over myself and her NP is playing into it also and it just feels like a very convenient time to push for space.

Yeah the thing (subtext) with meta delivering this advice could be viewed in lots of different ways.
1) Genuine concern for his mental health.
2) Sort of self-serving, because she gets stuck being the emotional tampon, which also directly splashes over into her marriage by the things he tells her.
3) Really self-serving, because she thinks and feels she needs the break, but can’t or won’t directly say that to her husband, so she uses the back door route, the known weakest link.

My BF has said he doesn’t want them dictating our relationship and we should keep planning dates and let them know when regardless of how they are going to treat each other distance wise, but it already feels like things are changing and quickly. I just got word that a weekend (that was supposedly them only set for reconnection) has turned into another couple being invited over to their house for movie night on one of the nights. So I’m working through those feelings now this morning.

All fun stuff

Are you suggesting "movie night" is code for something much more?
Who’s typically in charge of invites for movie nights?
What kind of movies are typically viewed?

 

[Z3r0Cool]

I was using movie night code for something more. These are another couple in the lifestyle. We do have boundaries, so it's not supposed to be more, but just feels like that's where it might go. Also, it's just a feeling, so no basis in that. It's probably just a movie night. Normal movies, nothing crazy.

The meta planned it without telling her NP until it was already planned. The only reason I'm upset about it is it was supposed to be a "them weekend," then she went and planned something anyway. I just feel pushed aside with that. What they do in their own time is really none of my business. It just rubs me wrong that it happened right now, amidst this other stuff.

 

[Z3r0Cool]

Based on the TLDR only: BF could thank Meta for the suggestion, but tell her there is no basis for it, since your NP didn't confirm it would help them. He could further investigate whether it's really Meta's need for him to pull back, and if so, have a hopefully more honest conversation.

I did talk to him about this tonight. We didn't want to leave things tense between us. They have had some sort of a conversation since. While I won't pry into what they discussed, I let him know when we talked that I needed to see that there was a path forward for us that isn't being decided by outside influence. Based on recent events, I can't trust that decisions are being made without that influence. I think that's the most I can do for now. He will have to step up and say what he wants or not, and we'll have to go from there.

 

[dingedheart]

I was using movie night code for something more. This is another couple in the lifestyle. We do have boundaries, so it's not supposed to be more, but just feels like that's where it might go. Also, just a feeling, so no basis in that.

I’m not sure there’s entirely NO basis. She and your NP have been struggling with the new dynamic, she suggests a break to have some reconnection time, and then intentionally plans an in-home movie night with a couple in the lifestyle.

It's probably just a movie night. Normal movies, nothing crazy. The Meta planned it without telling her NP until it was already planned.

Did she inform your NP of these plans? How did he feel or react to this plan?

The only reason I'm upset about it is it was supposed to be a "them weekend," but she went and planned something anyway. I just feel pushed aside with that. What they do in their own time is really none of my business. It just rubs me wrong that it happened right now, amidst this other stuff.

It seems very reasonable to me under the circumstances and context of the overall picture. It does seem semi-subversive, in terms of a mental tweak in proposing this reconnection weekend, but then deliberately planning something with other swingers with a possible innuendo. Even if the plan is 100% innocent, with no intention of anything sexual, could it be to put doubt in some minds? to deliberately stress the system or some people’s systems? One has to wonder if she’s that detached or unserious about her partner's relationship with you to plant these seeds, that will literally run parallel with your reconnection time with your NP.

Did you have fun or interesting plans for the weekend or evening? Do you think either of you will be affected/let it in your head space? Will this have a dampening effect on your end?

 

[Evie]

Is meta talking for NP because that's what's coming out of their pillow talk?

 

[Z3r0Cool]

Did she inform your NP of these plans? How did he feel or react to this plan?

After the bf went home and had a talk with her, she sent my NP a message saying that she decided to do a movie night on Friday with the lady of the house. At the same time, I got a message from the bf that he was staying home. To me, that feels like the plan wasn't to tell him at all, but she had to when she found out I knew.

And now I feel like I've done something bad too, which has influenced the bf to stay home. Sigh.

My NP didn't seem too bothered by the plan. He just said whatever. The prior plan would have bothered him in the past, though.

Did you have fun or interesting plans for the weekend or evening? Do you think either of you will be affected/let it in your head space? Will this have a dampening effect on your end?

We plan on doing something, just a date night for us. All of us have a bad habit of letting the others in their headspace when one or the other set are going through it, but I will try to just enjoy my moments with my NP and keep myself busy.

 

[Z3r0Cool]

Is meta talking for NP because that's what's coming out of their pillow talk?

This is a good point and I'm sure has something to do with it. Knowing how he talks to me about all his thoughts and how he is in general, this is very likely.

 

[Magdlyn]

Having read this thread, it sounds like a case of a swinging quad moving into polyamory. You and bf are in love; your chemistry is great. This is no longer swinging on this end. It's love. He loves his NP and you; you love your NP and bf.

However, it seems that your NP and your Meta are not in this headspace. Especially your Meta-- she's wanting you to pull back from her NP/your bf, saying it's out of concern for your NP/her bf.

It's not her place to tell you what to do with your NP. If he needs more of your time and energy, he can ask (nicely). I can see where you spending more time with your bf is more "fun," sexy and fulfilling than with a depressed NP, however.

Your NP and Meta are doing things to try and sabotage your new love relationship with your bf-- your NP by freaking out before and after every individual date you have with your bf, and Meta by telling you to spend more time with your NP, and also planning a foursome date for her and her NP with another swinger couple. This couldn't be more clear.

You and bf are on the same page-- it's polyamory now, not swinging. However, your NP and Meta are not on that page. They want you to have less contact with your bf. They want this to go back to swinging, where the original couples are primary and of paramount importance, and the newer couples (You and your bf; Meta and your NP) are just FWBs, not "in love."

However, the horse is out of the barn. You and bf have fallen in love. Now what?

Do you and bf back off from each other to make your original partners more comfortable?

Do you and bf split up from your original partners and pursue a long-term love relationship?

Do you have enough productive talks with your quad to get your NP and Meta on board with the undeniable fact that you and your bf are no longer swinging partners, but actual lovers, and what that entails for the future?

We often get former swinging couples coming here with this same dilemma. You can go for years just having casual "playtime" sex with others, when all of a sudden, BAM, a certain person comes along who pushes all your buttons, and it's no longer swinging. It's love, and possibly polyamory, if only you could get your pesky original partners on board. That's the big "if." Until that is sorted, your NP and Meta will keep freaking out and trying to sabotage you and your bf.

 

[Z3r0Cool]

You hit the nail on the head with all of it 100%.
I appreciate the thoughtful questions that we should be asking ourselves.

Do you and bf back off from each other to make your original partners more comfortable?

Neither of us wants to back off. We discussed it and have some proposals in the making that might make it seem more stable and for the NP's that feel like maybe they are losing control to see if that offers some stabilization or comfort. We will also both be covering topics in our respective couples therapy sessions as well about needs.

Do you and bf split up from your original partners and pursue a long-term love relationship?

This is not what either of us want. We do both love our NP's and we have built lives together, lived dreams and such. We have also agreed that we are not willing to give each other up. So between the BF and I, we wouldn't ask this of the other, at least I know that much. The harder part is getting the NP's to believe that we don't want to ride off into the sunset together.

Do you have enough productive talks with your quad to get your NP and Meta on board with the undeniable fact that you and your bf are no longer swinging partners, but actual lovers, and what that entails for the future?

We have had a lot of separate talks with them about it so they both know. I think that's what started scaring them in the first place. More group communication is something we want to work on and is part of one of our proposals. One still likes to keep a lot of info private and that's their right to do so, but it sure would be easier if they were willing to discuss more as a group

I'm hopeful that over the next couple of weeks we can have some more of this happen and I will end up having better news in here!

 

[dingedheart]

After the bf went home and had a talk with her, she sent my NP a message saying that she decided to do a movie night on Friday with the lady of the house. At the same time, I got a message from the bf that he was staying home. To me, that feels like the plan wasn't to tell him at all, but she had to when she found out I knew.

I 100% agree she was forced into it.

And now I feel like I've done something bad too, which has influenced the bf to stay home. Sigh.

I don’t think I would, because having more information, or being able to see the full picture allows him/bf (or anyone) to make informed decisions. One could argue if the purpose and intent of this weekend/being walled off from our other partners was to "reconnect," why schedule something with another couple? And one could argue that he wasn’t consulted, so he feels no obligation to attend. A bait-and-switch-type thing.

My NP didn't seem too bothered by the plan. He just said whatever. The prior plan would have bothered him in the past, though.

Any speculation as to why it’s not bothering him now? Could it be his feelings aren’t that strong for this woman?

Is this quad thing a package deal? Any thoughts or pencil drawings if one side or the other breaks up? Or is there something in the bylaws that forbids this?

We plan on doing something, just a date night for us. All of us have a bad habit of letting the others in their headspace when one or the other set are going through it, but I will try to just enjoy my moments with my NP and keep myself busy.

That might be really hard, knowing bf is home alone. Might want to lock up your phone or tablet so as to not get caught giving into temptation.

 

[dingedheart]

Neither of us wants to back off. We discussed it and have some proposals in the making that might make it seem more stable, and for the NPs that feel like maybe they are losing control, to see if that offers some stabilization or comfort. We will also both be covering topics in our respective couples therapy sessions, as well, about needs.

Care to share those proposals? I see this as mostly inside work, and/or maybe scheduling.

This is not what either of us want. We do both love our NPs. We have built lives together, lived dreams and such.

Are there people in the swinging community or poly community that you all know that have ridden off in the sunset with their new partners? Or, I guess, marriages have broken apart because of the stress of trying to transition to polyamory? Or the romantic side of the marriage slowly dying? I guess what I’m asking is, are there experiences that he/they are drawing from that have hit close to home?

We have also agreed that we are not willing to give each other up. So between the BF and me, we wouldn't ask this of the other. At least I know that much. The harder part is getting the NPs to believe that we don't want to ride off into the sunset together.

You never fantasized or ran hypotheticals just for fun on this? I think, instead of trying to convince someone of a future intention, it would be better for them to realize people are in relationships, and stay in them by choice, and there’s nothing that would indicate that anyone is choosing to leave. Embracing reality, the future will unfold, whether you obsess over it or not.

On the flip side of this-- it’s one thing to stumble and struggle when your spouse’s NRE is out of check, and it’s quite another thing to just become an emotional mess, depressed and morose all the time for no reason/ungrounded reasons. That becomes very tiresome, annoying, and fatiguing, and thus it can kill off desire and attraction. And that has its own cascading effect.

We have had a lot of separate talks with them about it, so they both know. I think that's what started scaring them in the first place. More group communication is something we want to work on, and is part of one of our proposals. One still likes to keep a lot of info private, and that's their right to do so, but it sure would be easier if they were willing to discuss more as a group.

I’m not sure, but this could be why quads typically don’t last long.

I'm hopeful that over the next couple of weeks we can have some more of this happen and I will end up having better news in here!

Let’s hope… Good luck.

 

[Z3r0Cool]

Care to share those proposals? I see this as mostly inside work, and/or maybe scheduling.

Yep, just more of a scheduling proposal, ATM. If they want less chaos and to feel more in control, a schedule might help with that, but it's a very early draft.

it would be better for them to realize people are in, and stay in, relationships by choice, and there’s nothing that would indicate that anyone is choosing to leave. Embracing reality, the future will unfold, whether you obsess over it or not.

This right here. I'm here because I choose to be.

 

[Z3r0Cool]

Hitting some questions I hadn't answered prior.

To me, that looks on paper to be a solid start/foundation. Have boundaries been pushed? Have expectations dramatically changed?

We do have boundaries that are set for respect toward each relationship, as well as for protecting the original relationships in regards to time and such. I don't think the boundaries the BF and I have are right for the other two, but they are both big on fairness in all things, and adopted the same boundaries for themselves. I think some of that is trying to be pushed lately with this movie-night stuff, but I will give the benefit of the doubt for now.

Any speculation as to why it’s not bothering him now? Could it be his feeling aren’t that strong for this woman?

Is this quad thing a package deal? Any thoughts or pencil drawings if one side or the other breaks up? Or is there something in the bylaws that forbids this?

They do not feel as strongly for each other, but there is love. They would also be fine going with longer periods of separation. In the beginning, I think there were assumptions made that it would be a package deal. That is not the case, though.

It's what started the anxious ones, into these black pits of "what-ifs" and negativity. I have kept a very consistent stance that I will not leave him just because my meta and NP fall through. I feel like if they are asking you to break your own and someone else's heart just for the sake of doing it, do they really even care about you at all? That may be opening a can of worms with some people, sorry!

I guess what I’m asking is, are there experiences that he/they are drawing from that have hit close to home?

We've definitely seen this in some of the swinger couples. Not a lot lot, but a few here and there. Seems like it happens more with couples that haven't been together as long, or are just dating. We only know a few poly couples in RL, and they are going strong after many years. It wasn't without many of the ups and downs it seems like most go through. We know zero quads so far, outside of forums.

Alas, here we are a couple days later. Each couple has had their respective talks. Not everything is 100% better, but maybe a little less hurtful today, which is always a good thing. Here's to hoping we keep moving in the right direction!

 

[Magdlyn]

I have kept a very consistent stance that I will not leave him just because my meta and NP fall through. I feel like if they are asking you to break your own and someone else's heart just for the sake of doing it, do they really even care about you at all? That may be opening a can of worms with some people, sorry!

I just wanted to address this part. It seems you think some of us would judge you as a bad person for wanting to stay with your bf even if your NP and his gf lose interest in each other. On the contrary!

Quads are quite rare in polyamory. In general, polyamorists are much more independent than swingers, even when coupled. Each member of a poly pair is expected to date the people they want to date. Let's say my bf Aries started dating his gf Sadie, and I would have been expected to date her husband... Um... no! I haven't even met him, but from what Aries has told me about him, I don't think I'd be attracted to him at all.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I haven't reread your thread just now), but did this quad start as a swinging sexual thing only? You were attracted to the guy, your NP was attracted to the woman. Over time, NRE faded, and you and bf fell in love, while things between your NP and the other woman are kinda lukewarm? They "love" each other, but maybe just as friends, not like they are "in love." In fact, they'd be happy to spend less time together.

In other words, they are actually losing interest in each other, while you and bf are falling deeper in love. Therefore, his NP is getting nervous. Will she lose him altogether? Will he want more and more time with you? Can she nip this in the bud by getting him sexually interested in another swinger woman (i.e., movie-night chick)? Can she do that, while telling you it's out of concern for your NP, to make her look altruistic and not possessive of your bf/her NP?

We've definitely seen this in some of the swinger couples. Not a lot lot, but a few here and there. Seems like it happens more with couples that haven't been together as long, or are just dating. We only know a few poly couples in RL, and they are going strong after many years. It wasn't without many of the ups and downs it seems like most go through. We know zero quads so far, outside of forums.

Yes, that reflects what I said about the rarity of polyamorous quads, while they are more common in the swinging world. Swapping partners/spouses in swinging, for sex only, is super common, as far as I have heard. This is supposed to "protect the relationships of the original couples." They say, "We are doing this together!"

Another thing swingers tend to do is break up with new partners if new romantic feelings start to develop between two people who were just supposed to be having sport sex. It sounds like your NP's partner was trying to distract him with some "strange" to create distance between you and him.

Alas, here we are a couple days later. Each couple has had their respective talks. Not everything is 100% better, but maybe a little less hurtful today, which is always a good thing. Here's to hoping we keep moving in the right direction!

Please keep us updated. It sounds like a sticky situation with different conflicting agendas.

 

[icesong]

I don’t know that I have any advice, which is almost surprising as I was once almost _exactly_ in your position (there’s a blog linked in my signature, if you go to the first few posts you can find the story there). But I have great sympathy and I really hope, for the sake of everyone involved, that your bf has the spine to not give into demands just to ease anxiety.