one way rollercoaster (UK)

[Polyluke]

Hi everyone,

Been here a while, reading posts and thought to say hello officially.
I’m M - 33 happily married for > 10 years w kids. UK midlands based.

My wife has been on the poly journey for a couple of years now (although I hadn’t realised for some time) and to be fair she’s been pretty good about letting me know where she was on that journey (it’s been chatting, flirting but nothing physical) Things turned a lot more official a few months ago when she officially ‘came out’. It’s been a mixed bag of emotions as you can imagine but I’m in a fairly happy place with her poly these days. Probably worth saying it’s partially to a few people i approached on this forum plus a load of literature and books out there to digest things.
We have our boundaries agreed and They regularly have time together.
6 months ago I would have identified as monotonous, now having been through this i would probably identify as curious. Her journey is clear , mine is just starting and we have started discussing what that might look like. It’s been surprisingly difficult for her - you cannot always control your feelings - but it’s work in progress. We’re very committed to each other and want to both continue our journeys together - just more fulfilled / happier / well rounded
Anyway - that’s me in a nutshell - say hello if you want, drop me a line or connect !

Thanks for reading -‘Luke’

Note: not looking for hookups or meet-ups yet ... as I said WIP

 

[Magdlyn]

Hi everyone,

I've been here a while, reading posts, and I thought to say hello officially.
I’m male, 33, happily married for > 10 years with kids. UK midlands based.

My wife has been on the poly journey for a couple of years now (although I hadn’t realised for some time)...

If she was romantically or sexually involved with others, and you didn't know, she was breaking your (probably monogamous) marriage vows. And for 2 years! That is considered cheating behavior. Let's not confuse things. Too many people use the word "polyamorous" incorrectly, to whitewash other behaviors like cheating, as well as other feelings or behaviors like NRE addiction, randomly NSA hooking up, etc.

... and to be fair she’s been pretty good about letting me know where she was on that journey. It’s been chatting, flirting, but nothing physical. Things turned a lot more official a few months ago when she officially ‘came out.'

Official? You mean honest. See above. Although it's good she was "just" chatting and flirting. It's good she "came out" to you before she actually started meeting people or having sex. But 2 years of flirting in private without your knowledge, did that hurt?

It’s been a mixed bag of emotions, as you can imagine, but I’m in a fairly happy place with her poly these days. It's probably worth saying it’s partially due to a few people I approached on this forum plus a load of literature and books out there to digest things.

You had a very steep learning curve! To thinking you and your wife were happily monogamous, to learning she was cheating on your vows, to consenting to her openly having other romantic/sexual relationships, all in the space of a few months. Is there no mistrust on your end from her carrying on like that behind your back? What did she do to regain your trust?

We have our boundaries agreed and they regularly have time together.

So she is now dating just one other person, it seems. You aren't clear.

6 months ago I would have identified as monogamous. Now having been through this I would probably identify as (poly-) curious. Her journey is clear; mine is just starting, and we have started discussing what that might look like. It’s been surprisingly difficult for her - you cannot always control your feelings - but it’s work in progress. We’re very committed to each other and want to both continue our journeys together - just more fulfilled/happier/well rounded.

Anyway, that’s me in a nutshell. Say hello if you want, drop me a line or connect!

Thanks for reading -‘Luke’

Note: not looking for hookups or meet-ups yet ... as I said, WIP.

No worries, this isn't a hookup or dating site. It's a discussion board. Some people come here sometimes, unicorn hunting, so their posts get moved to the regional section, but I don't think much action ever happens there.

One can't control one's feelings, but one can control one's behaviors. It seems your wife was out of control with her behaviors to start an intimate relationship behind your back and continue it for 2 years. And the guy (?) she is involved with? What about his ethics? That is rather sketchy.

And now maybe you are referring to her feeling upset at the idea of you dating, even though she wants you to be OK with her having cheated for 2 years, plus now actually dating another person, so soon after her confession and your apparent forgiveness.

Feel free to start a thread in the Relationships section about the difficulties you see in your early poly adventures. We like to help. It seems that because your wife has a crush, you've decided to date eventually as well. You don't have to date, just because she is. Unless you really want to, of course. Right now from here, it looks like time to rebuild trust, and create an entirely different marriage.

 

[kdt26417]

Greetings Luke,
Welcome to our forum. Please feel free to lurk, browse, etc.

When you say your wife officially came out, do you mean she came out to you, or to friends and family? If to you, then I take it you have only really known for a few months? Before then was it just, you had a vague idea of what was happening? You do seem to be handling it remarkably well, she could take a page out of your book. It sounds like you've done a lot of research in order to understand poly better, I commend you for that. Keep reading and posting here!

Sincerely,
Kevin T., "official greeter"

Notes:

There's a *lot* of good info in Golden Nuggets. Have a look!

Please read through the guidelines if you haven't already.

Note: You needn't read every reply to your posts, especially if someone posts in a disagreeable way. Given the size and scope of the site it's hard not to run into the occasional disagreeable person. Please contact the mods if you do (or if you see any spam), and you can block the person if you want.

If you have any questions about the board itself, please private-message a mod and they'll do their best to help.

Welcome aboard!

 

[Polyluke]

Hiya, thanks for your replies

within the limited space, probably wasn't as clear as I could have been

If she was romantically or sexually involved with others, and you didn't know, she was breaking your (probably monogamous) marriage vows.

She wasn't - when I say she was on the journey, I refer to an emotional journey not a physical one. Before anything physical happened we cleared things

But 2 years of flirting in private without your knowledge, did that hurt?

I was aware and knew about it - mainly after the fact but after the first flirtatious exchanges we again talked things through and cleared things - one person's porn is another person's chatting / flirting. I've always been fairly open, honest and rational bout these things.

You had a very steep learning curve!

although all the above it still was a shock to go through - even though we agreed things in advance.

Is there no mistrust on your end

I'm quite secure on that front. I'm not really jealous - but I am envious of the joy, feelings and excitement that comes with a new sexual partner. I don't think she will leave me and through all the talking there is no indication that she would. We have some basic rules in place to safeguard 'us'...

She is only dating one other person - his ethics .... well they aren't brilliant. But before anyone asks - I do know him and he is a nice guy.

And now maybe you are referring to her feeling upset at the idea of you dating

Yup - exactly. although she isn't cheating - feeling are funny things to be worked through. But its something we will get through I have no doubt. The relationship is quite strong. She definitely identifies poly-amorous - I am more on the path of CNM - but time will tell.

When you say your wife officially came out, do you mean she came out to you, or to friends and family? If to you, then I take it you have only really known for a few months? Before then was it just, you had a vague idea of what was happening? You do seem to be handling it remarkably well, she could take a page out of your book. It sounds like you've done a lot of research in order to understand poly better, I commend you for that. Keep reading and posting here!

To me (and after agreeing with me) to a close mutual friend - I would agree that 'I had only known for a few months'. in hindsight, it could have dawned on me a whole lot sooner but it hadn't but I would have not agreed to everything I did without having an idea of what was involved (research, books, forums, audiobooks, podcasts) and seeing her point of view. I think I have intellectually engaged with the topic a lot more than she has... work in progress one could say

 

[Magdlyn]

I took the liberty of editing your post lightly for clarity.

Hiya, thanks for your replies.

Within the limited space, I probably wasn't as clear as I could have been.
She wasn't. When I say she was on the journey, I refer to an emotional journey, not a physical one. Before anything physical happened we cleared things up.

In polyamory, feelings are actually just as, or sometimes more important than, actions. We recognize the impact and repercussions of an "emotional affair." These kinds of affairs are extremely common these days, with the Internet connecting people over long distances. Deeply felt written conversations can lead to feelings of true connection, which can and do lead to flirting and cybersex.

I was aware and knew about it - mainly after the fact. But after the first flirtatious exchanges, we again talked things through and cleared things up. One person's porn is another person's chatting/flirting. I've always been fairly open, honest and rational about these things.

She tried to tell you that chatting and sexting (?) with a real person who lives elsewhere is just the same as porn? And you didn't agree with it, but allowed that she did. But what about feelings? You don't usually get emotionally involved in porn (with the actors in a video). There is an actual person typing responsively on a keyboard on either end in cybersexing. (Or actually Skyping, or whatever.) Her play partner/LDR bf wasn't a cam boy being paid to get her off. She was emotionally and sexually involved with him, long distance.

Although all the above was still was a shock to go through, even though we agreed things in advance.

It seems like you didn't agree in advance, but only after she'd been interacting with this guy for a while. I just want to offer my perspective, as it seems your wife has tried to downplay it as "only porn," when it wasn't.

I'm quite secure on that front. I'm not really jealous - but I am envious of the joy, feelings and excitement that comes with a new sexual partner. I don't think she will leave me, and through all the talking there is no indication that she would. We have some basic rules in place to safeguard 'us."

She is only dating one other person. His ethics... well, they aren't brilliant. But, before anyone asks, I do know him, and he is a nice guy.

A "nice" guy with poor ethics who had an emotional and long distance sexual affair with your wife without your prior knowledge. It sounds like both his and especially, your wife's ethics could use a brushing up to do polyamory properly.

Yup, exactly. Although she isn't cheating, feelings are funny things to be worked through. But it's something we will get through, I have no doubt. The relationship is quite strong. She definitely identifies as polyamorous. I am more on the path of CNM. But time will tell.

What is CNM?

To me, and after agreeing with me, to a close mutual friend, I would agree that 'I had only known for a few months.' In hindsight, it could have dawned on me a whole lot sooner. But it hadn't. But I would not have agreed to everything I did without having an idea of what was involved (research, books, forums, audiobooks, podcasts), and seeing her point of view. I think I have intellectually engaged with the topic a lot more than she has. It's a work in progress, one could say.

Yes. She's the one "doing polyamory," but there are some very grey areas of what this consists of. Sex only? Feelings? Cheating or not? OK for her to have an OSO, but not OK for you? Shaky ethics of her partner, etc., etc.

You can't do poly happily with a partner unless boundaries are crystal clear, and you agree on terms. "Rules" aren't needed. Personal boundaries do need to be communicated, and consequences of boundary violations as well.

An example of a boundary might be, you want to be informed about a new prospective partner within a certain time period: before flirting starts, just after flirting starts, just after they start dating, just before sex is about to happen (with a clear definition of what "sex" is), etc. Then you two agree on this. And determine consequences of a boundary being broken.

Are you reading Opening Up by Taormino? https://www.amazon.com/Opening-Up-Creating-Sustaining-Relationships/dp/157344295X
You might find this very helpful for needed guidelines for successful poly.

 

[kdt26417]

CNM = Consensual NonMonogamy (I think). Probably like poly but without so much of the emotional involvement. Like "open." Luke, perhaps you can confirm/clarify?

 

[Polyluke]

She tried to tell you that chatting and sexting (?) with a real person who lives elsewhere is just the same as porn?

Sorry I made that reference, she didn’t without going into details I know the two things are different, one has a person, one has feelings, the other doesn’t, however for me and given our shared positive history and journey in life it’s a fair analogy and something I was and am ok with. At the time i Just did not look ahead and think: where might this lead to.... and I think neither did she. Things develop and change and as long as you keep an open dialogue you can stay ahead of the most major issues.

It seems like you didn't agree in advance, but only after she'd been interacting with this guy for a while. I just want to offer my perspective, as it seems your wife has tried to downplay it as "only porn,"

We’ve had many discussions in that period, so elapsed time between action and talking about it never were long. As in any relationship many mistakes were made, but we talked about them all openly and are in a reasonably good place what her polyamory and feelings - for now anyway. We have boundaries established so I would say are in a good place - they need reviewing periodically but for now they’re ok.

Are you reading Opening Up by Taormino? https://www.amazon.com/Opening-Up-Creating-Sustaining-Relationships/dp/157344295X
You might find this very helpful for needed guidelines for successful poly.

Thanks for the suggestion will have a look at it

CNM = Consensual NonMonogamy (I think). Probably like poly but without so much of the emotional involvement. Like "open." Luke, perhaps you can confirm/clarify?

Exactly - consensual non monogamous. I don’t think I’m polyamorous from everything I’ve read, but then that depends on ones definition of relationship, love ,...

The harder bit for me at the moment is her struggles with me wanting to explore outside the marriage (in a way like she is, just different) - but then things are new, ever changing ... who knows what’s around the corner ....

 

[Magdlyn]

Sorry I made that reference, she didn’t. Without going into details, I know the two things are different. One involves another person who has feelings, the other doesn’t. However for me, and given our shared positive history and journey in life, it’s a fair analogy and something I was and am OK with.

So you personally have had online sexual relationships where there were no feelings at all, just sex? How does that work?

At the time I just did not look ahead and think about where this might lead, and neither did she. Things develop and change, and as long as you keep an open dialogue you can stay ahead of the most major issues.

So you BOTH thought of cybersex as mere porn, giving no thoughts to the possibility of feelings of fondness arising on either your side, or the side of the play partner. OK.

We’ve had many discussions in that period, so elapsed time between action and talking about it was never long. As in any relationship, many mistakes were made, but we talked about them all openly and are in a reasonably good place with her polyamory and feelings. For now anyway.

Hmm. Good to learn from one's mistakes, and in something as tricky as an open relationship, good to be aware of as many of the issues and problems that can crop up as possible, before you, or her, or especially the person on the other end, gets their heart broken, from ignorance.

We have boundaries established, so I would say we are in a good place. They need reviewing periodically, but for now they’re ok...

Exactly, consensual non monogamy. I don’t think I’m polyamorous, from everything I’ve read, but then that depends on one's definition of relationship, one's definition of love...

The harder bit for me at the moment is her struggles with me wanting to explore outside the marriage (in a way like she is, just different), but then things are new, ever-changing. Who knows what’s around the corner?

OK. You'll learn all about negotiating limits and establishing boundaries by reading around this board, and dipping into Opening Up. But for now, it seems your boundaries are not well established and already need more negotiation.

It sounds like your wife is in an emotional and sexual relationship with another man. Will they be meeting? Is the distance far? How will she fund her trips, if she plans to go see him? How long is it OK for her to stay? Can she stay at his place or does she need to get a hotel?

If he comes to visit her (to have sex) is it OK with you to have them doing that in your house? Or does he need to get a hotel? Are you OK with her spending the night? How many days would you be comfortable with him staying in your town? How many days does he want to stay, does she want him to stay? All 3 of you have to be on the same page.

And for you... are you going to start actively searching for a play partner? Joining clubs, going to bars, going to poly meetups? Using Tinder? Joining swingers sites? Or are you just going to be casually open to what might come your way?

How much time can you both allot for cyberdating or irl dating? You need days to date each other, you need to work, you need "me time," you need to see family and friends, do housework and home repairs and keep the cars on the road. You both need to agree on how much time is OK to spend texting others when you two are home. People can get carried away with NRE and neglect their original partner. This can be feel terrible and greatly threaten the relationship.

You say you aren't polyamorous (from reading about it), but I don't see where you've tried sexing others, so maybe you just have no idea how long you can sustain sex without feelings arising. And even if you are immune to feelings, and can shag away with only your body involved, what about the woman you are shagging? What if she falls in love with you?

Finally, you say your first concern is, your wife is feeling jealous in advance, of any of your partners of the future. That's kind of a roadblock right from the get go. Jealousy is almost always a fear of loss. She is afraid you will have sex with someone, fall in love, and give them deeply of yourself, your heart, time and money, and possibly even leave her. That's pretty huge.

 

[Polyluke]

But for now, it seems your boundaries are not well established and already need more negotiation.

Definitely! It feels like as soon as you talk about things they’ve moved - and I think it’s true that there’s a huge difference between “what if” scenarios and actually things happening.

It sounds like your wife is in an emotional and sexual relationship with another man. Will they be meeting? Is the distance far? How will she fund her trips, if she plans to go see him? How long is it OK for her to stay? Can she stay at his place or does she need to get a hotel?

He lives in the same town and they meet regularly (sexually and non sexually) - times and length they’re together is well defined, as is location. No surprises there really.

And for you... are you going to start actively searching for a play partner? Joining clubs, going to bars, going to poly meetups? Using Tinder? Joining swingers sites? Or are you just going to be casually open to what might come your way?

Eventually I would like to but not before clearing things with my wife and establishing those boundaries. There is lots to be discussed and worked out first what her polyamory means to us and how that all works. We then need to work our the rest (just for clarity this won’t be news to her later, we have been talking about it just agreed to park it for now)

You say you aren't polyamorous (from reading about it), but I don't see where you've tried sexing others, so maybe you just have no idea how long you can sustain sex without feelings arising. And even if you are immune to feelings, and can shag away with only your body involved, what about the woman you are shagging? What if she falls in love with you?

Think you raise a valid point there, I don’t have an actual reference for it and won’t know until I get there for sure. And i agree, in any sexual relationship There are feelings involved (otherwise sex will be difficult biologically) - however to me there is levels of feelings, to me polyamory has elements of love (amory) - how that is defined depends of course on the people involved. And with any other potential partner expectations would need to be talked about and constantly re-evaluated as they change I suspect. Everyone’s feelings matter and I think I’m just about to start grasping how complex making a poly relationship work is ....

We shall see where things go ..... I think whatever happens we both are open and honest about things with each other and want to make things work for us in the long run.

 

[Magdlyn]

Definitely! It feels like as soon as you talk about things they’ve moved - and I think it’s true that there’s a huge difference between “what if” scenarios and actually things happening.

There is a huge amount of work needed for a couple that is moving from monogamy to polyamory, for sure. But all the open communication is good for your relationship, and can often relight fires! So, there's an immediate reward there.

He lives in the same town and they meet regularly (sexually and non sexually) - times and length they’re together is well defined, as is location. No surprises there really.

Oh! I had no idea. I thought they were only talking online. So he's a neighbor and they've been meeting irl all along? Or they only talked online until very recently? I am so confused.

So, now they are dating for real, and having sex. In your house, or at his place? Is he single?

Eventually I would like to, but not before clearing things with my wife, and establishing those boundaries. There is lots to be discussed and worked out-- first what her polyamory means to us, and how that all works. We then need to work our the rest (just for clarity this won’t be news to her later, we have been talking about it just agreed to park it for now) .

I'm very sorry she has a double standard.

I think you raise a valid point there. I don’t have an actual reference for it and won’t know until I get there for sure. And i agree, in any sexual relationship there are feelings involved (otherwise sex will be difficult biologically).

However to me there are levels of feelings. To me polyamory has elements of love (amory). Jow that is defined depends, of course, on the people involved. And with any other potential partner expectations would need to be talked about and constantly re-evaluated as they change, I suspect.

Everyone’s feelings matter, and I think I’m just about to start grasping how complex making a poly relationship work is. We shall see where things go. I think whatever happens, we both are open and honest about things with each other and want to make things work for us in the long run.

Eventually many couples get to a place where everything is working smoothly and each new partner doesn't rock the boat much. Adjustments need to be made, of course, but trust and boundaries in general are established and we know more or less what to expect from each other.

It's unwise to place limits on how many feelings one is "allowed" to feel. My suggestion is to be open to anything from casual sex with someone you find hot, to falling head over heels in love. That way, you won't break any silly agreements about how much you can feel. Feelings are out of our control, they just happen. Behaviors, however, can be controlled.

 

[Al99]

Cnm

Hi Luke - and a somewhat belated welcome to the Forum! I'm glad to see that you are having an productive conversation on your situation with Magdlyn, one of our regular, experienced contributors. I can relate to your story as my wife asked me to open our marriage to polyamory so she could ethically explore her resurgent feelings for an old college boyfriend - that was almost 3 years ago now, and my conversations here were very helpful in making that transition. I now self identify as poly with partners of my own - my wife's boyfriend is currently living with us, and we practice kitchen table poly in the home. (Full story is in the signature link below).

In regard to the term "Consensual Non-Monogamy" (CNM), I have seen this term increase in usage during my three years of ongoing research on the subject of polyamory. CNM is a more umbrella term that covers all variations of non-monogamy that are conducted with the knowledge and consent of all involved. Swinging also falls under that umbrella, for example, but with a couple-centric emphasis focused on recreational sex as a couple. Polyamory, otoh, focuses on simultaneous, multiple romantic/emotional relationships - although sex is usually an aspect as well. But labels don't always work and there is certainly a spectrum, with lots of gray. A "friend with benefits" (fwb), for example, can certainly fall in the CNM spectrum - and can even be part of a poly configuration. So, both swinging and polyamory could be said to be subsets of CNM.

Here's a link to a list of top poly web sites that you might find helpful:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108191

Again, welcome to the Forum!

Al

 

[Evie]

Eventually many couples get to a place where everything is working smoothly and each new partner doesn't rock the boat much. Adjustments need to be made, of course, but trust and boundaries in general are established and we know more or less what to expect from each other.

I can attest to this. Adam and I opened up after spending some time closed. And there were teething issues but they resolved and now poly is just normal.

I really hope your wife can do her own emotional work to become comfortable with you developing sexual relationships outside your marriage. Here's a tip: don't agree to rules like condom/barrier use as a blanket thing. That's just asking for trouble.

 

[Magdlyn]

Here's a tip: don't agree to rules like condom/barrier use as a blanket thing. That's just asking for trouble.

What do you mean, Evie?

 

[Evie]

What do you mean, Evie?

I mean that it's better to consider it on a case by case basis and with the other individual involved rather than deciding between the original couple that condoms must always be used outside the marriage (or other nesting configuration). Blanket rules around condoms are an expression of couple's privilege and mean that any other partners are automatically considered less than, or not worthy to be barrier free with. If sexual health status is known and acceptable, and unintended pregnancy managed in other ways (IUD, pill, rods etc) then the newer partner shouldn't be legislated against by the older partner.

 

[Monkfish]

I mean that it's better to consider it on a case by case basis and with the other individual involved rather than deciding between the original couple that condoms must always be used outside the marriage (or other nesting configuration). Blanket rules around condoms are an expression of couple's privilege and mean that any other partners are automatically considered less than, or not worthy to be barrier free with. If sexual health status is known and acceptable, and unintended pregnancy managed in other ways (IUD, pill, rods etc) then the newer partner shouldn't be legislated against by the older partner.

That's intresting...

What if the older partner vetoes over that?

 

[Evie]

That's intresting...

What if the older partner vetoes over that?

Then the relationship likely isn't ready to be opened.

 

[Al99]

"Veto power" is considered by many veteran polyamorists to be an unhealthy, and even unethical practice in polyamory, and is not often practiced by experienced poly folks. It is most often practiced by married couples who have newly opened their marriages in an effort of enhance their sense of marital security.

Al

 

[Monkfish]

"Veto power" is considered by many veteran polyamorists to be an unhealthy, and even unethical practice in polyamory, and is not often practiced by experienced poly folks. It is most often practiced by married couples who have newly opened their marriages in an effort of enhance their sense of marital security.

Al

Could be and this is strong stuff.

 

[Magdlyn]

I mean that it's better to consider it on a case by case basis and with the other individual involved rather than deciding between the original couple that condoms must always be used outside the marriage (or other nesting configuration). Blanket rules around condoms are an expression of couple's privilege and mean that any other partners are automatically considered less than, or not worthy to be barrier free with. If sexual health status is known and acceptable, and unintended pregnancy managed in other ways (IUD, pill, rods etc) then the newer partner shouldn't be legislated against by the older partner.

I don't disagree with that. I just wanted to hear more details for the benefits of newer readers.

"Veto power" is considered by many veteran polyamorists to be an unhealthy, and even unethical practice in polyamory, and is not often practiced by experienced poly folks. It is most often practiced by married couples who have newly opened their marriages in an effort of enhance their sense of marital security.

I always use condoms with new male lovers, even if I see a clean test, until I fully understand the parameters of their other relationships, if any. If there's the least doubt that they are also seeing other women and going bareback, and these women are seeing other men, etc., it feels too risky for me to ever go bareback with the guy.

I have dated single men who weren't seeing anyone else but me, which I made sure was true over the course of at least 3 months of frequent dates and communication. Only then would I go bareback.

 

[Evie]

I don't disagree with that. I just wanted to hear more details for the benefits of newer readers.

Oh, I realised that, Mags, and I hope I did the ideas justice