Partner's sex ethics with others

[PolyElectric]

Hi everyone. 32m here.

I recently started an open/poly relationship with someone in my friend circle, Emma. She is sort of power hungry and dominating and forward about sex, and until recently I appreciated it about her.

About two weeks ago she went to a conference in New Orleans with her good friend (and mutual friend of mine), Marji. To make a long story short, they ended up having a threesome with a young bartender on their first night in town.

When we started dating, I asked Emma to tell me if she was ever putting me at any sort of STD risk, and we had recently agreed to start having unprotected sex together about three weeks before her trip. As soon as Emma got back from the trip, she told me that she had unprotected sex with the bartender and Marji on her trip. But she said something else that gave me pause. She said that she "made them have sex."

I asked her what that meant, and she said that she could tell Emma was nervous about having sex with the bartender, so she "directed them what to do." She went on to say that the bartender told her he came in her when she was riding him. But didn't go into any more detail than that.

When we got back to her place later that evening, I tried to tell her that I felt uncomfortable having unprotected sex with her, but she was so forward and dominating that I chickened out and felt like I had to have sex with her. We had unprotected sex and I immediately regretted it, I feel gross about it. Now I don't know how to tell her how I feel.

There is also now some sort of rift between Marji and Emma. I asked Marji what was going on and she told me the whole story. Marji said that she brought the bartender back to the airbnb and they started making out, but she decided she didn't want to have sex with him. To try and get out of having sex with him, Marji suggested they join Emma in the hot tub, which is where Emma started directing them what to do. And they all ended up going back into the bedroom to have sex.

The next morning Marji claims that Emma confessed that she "wasn't that drunk", which is making Marji feel bad, because she feels like she was too drunk to consent. Marji says she was so drunk that she passed out in the middle of the act, and only remembers the beginning of it. She talked to the bartender, and he told her that Emma kept going after she passed out, and to stop contacting him because he feels taken advantage of.

No one is using the word rape, but I feel like my gf Emma had non-consensual sex with the bartender and Marji, and I don't know how I feel about it. I also feel disregarded about the unprotected sex and that she still expects me to have unprotected sex with her after she did this. I guess I just don't understand why she did this when things were going so good. It does not feel ethical to me. I have tried to talk to her about it several times and she gets defensive and explosive every time. I think she might need some sort of professional help. I dont know what to do.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello PolyElectric,

Sorry to hear that Emma is being so forceful about having (unprotected) sex, it definitely sounds like she needs professional help for that. I'm not sure what you can do on your end, maybe learn to be more firm about saying no? and if that isn't an option, then you may want to consider breaking up with Emma altogether. I'm sorry if it comes to that.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[MeeraReed]

Break up with her. Please break up with her.

 

[Magdlyn]

Break up.

 

[PolyElectric]

I guess I wasn't clear that Emma and I were close friends before we started having a sexual relationship. I love her and I want to make it work. I just feel so many things right now, like everything is up in the air and just a mess because of one night. I'm not convinced that breaking up is the answer. We share a friend group and we have a good history as friends together. I don't want to lose all of that. But I feel like I need to air this out and get my thoughts straight. I can't figure out if what I am feeling is right or wrong of me. Part of me realizes it has nothing to do with me, (other than the unprotested sex part); but another part of me cares about Emma's ethics with other people. I don't know where to draw the line, or if there should be one, because I want her to have her autonomy.

 

[kdt26417]

You might want to have a talk with Emma, and tell her you're concerned.

 

[Inaniel]

I don't know where to draw the line or if there should be one because I want her to have her autonomy.

The line you draw is within yourself. The best relationships involve a shared mutual respect for each individual’s ethics. When ethics align, autonomy is easy to maintain. When ethics don’t align… Well, you already know what that looks like.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm so very sorry this has happened. It's a shock!

I get that you have feelings for her. But several times in your post you mentioned not feeling good about any of the nonconsensual sex with you, Marji, or the bartender, and how Emma is aggressive, takes advantage and doesn't listen.

Basically, you don't feel safe here.

This kind of behavior that Emma is doing hurts people and erodes trust.

I guess I wasn't clear that Emma and I were close friends before we started having a sexual relationship. I love her and I want to make it work.

I see that. I get you were friends and now you are lovers. But all participants have to do their fair share for something to work long term. All participants could be kind and loving toward each other in a healthy relationship. They also could honor themselves.

Emma won't even listen, not about your discomfort with unprotected sex, not about your discomfort about her sexual aggressiveness towards others. None of that sounds especially kind or friendly.

It sounds like you have discovered she behaves in non-loving ways towards people. And she does not want to change her behaviors. So all you can expect is more of the same.

I have tried to talk to her about it several times and she gets defensive and explosive every time.

Then you have done all you can. You don't need to stay there for more explosions or verbal abuse.

All you can do now is get yourself out of the splash zone. Break up. End contact.

If she gets professional help and stops doing these things you could reconsider getting back together. Or you can decide to be totally done with her, even if she does get help, because the whole experience was too much.

YOU are the one who picks what you are and are not up for. YOU are the one responsible for looking out for your own health and well being.

No one is using the word rape, but I feel like my gf Emma had non-consensual sex with the bartender and Marji, and I don't know how I feel about it. I also feel disregarded about the unprotected sex and that she still expects me to have unprotected sex with her after she did this. I guess I just don't understand why she did this when things were going so good. It does not feel ethical to me. I have tried to talk to her about it several times and she gets defensive and explosive every time. I think she might need some sort of professional help. I don't know what to do.

You sound very clear about how you feel and what you think.

You feel upset, from the sound of it. Disregarded and not heard when you bring up concerns or don't want to have unprotected sex with her. Maybe also mixed with numbness/disbelief/shock. One of the first stages of grief. Like "I thought I knew you. Who ARE you that you treat people like this?"

You are upset and worried about your GF pushing people into non-consensual sex and behaving rape-y. You think she needs professional help.

It's been a shock to discover all this stuff.

I just feel so many things right now, like everything is up in the air and just a mess because of one night. I'm not convinced that breaking up is the answer. We share a friend group and we have a good history as friends together. I don't want to lose all of that.

You could end things with Emma and carry on with the friends. You don't have to lose your friends.

If people ask, be honest. You felt uncomfortable with Emma's sex practices. You already know at least one friend (Marji) doesn't feel great about it either.

I don't know where to draw the line, or if there should be one, because I want her to have her autonomy.

I just don't understand why she did this when things were going so good, it does not feel ethical to me.

It's ok to feel all up in the air and confused, because you are stuck in the middle of opposite feelings. On the one hand, you were friends/lovers and probably have all those soft feelings for her. They struggle against the other feelings of "UGH! I can't believe this!" upset.

At the same time, don't let your soft friendship or romantic feelings for her get in the way of you protecting yourself from new shenanigans. Don't let them get in the way of you sticking to YOUR personal ethics. If you think this was NOT ethical, you expect better behavior than this from a partner, you don't have to stick around.

You are allowed to have your lines; it's called having personal boundaries.

"I do not hang out with or date people who push non-consensual sex or get rape-y" sounds like a good line to have, to me!

You create your personal boundaries to help keep yourself safe. Other people don't have to obey them. YOU are the one who obeys them.

You having this personal boundary doesn't prevent Emma from going around behaving as she wishes. She has her autonomy. But you don't have to be there for it. You also have your own autonomy. You get to decide what you are and are not up for. It's ok for this to be a deal breaker for you. It's ok to walk away.

If you need professional support as you process all that has happened, it's ok for you to get in touch with a counselor.

You are going to go through stages of grief because this is just not what you signed up for, even more grief than a "regular" break up. This is heavy duty stuff.

Again, I'm so very sorry this happened.

Galagirl

 

[icesong]

When we got back to her place later that evening I tried to tell her that I felt uncomfortable having unprotected sex with her, but she was so forward and dominating that I chickened out and felt like I had to have sex with her. We had unprotected sex and I immediately regretted it, I feel gross about it... Now I don't know how to tell her how I feel.

No one is using the word rape

Maybe they should be? Regardless of what happened during the threesome, what she did with you is not ok. I know that frankly this isn’t a thing that is talked about, but women can assault men and I’d call this that.

 

[HaloOnFire]

Please listen to what @GalaGirl and @icesong are telling you.

In no way is Emma being even remotely ethical in any bit of this scenario.

 

[Marcus]

I don't know where to draw the line or if there should be one because I want her to have her autonomy.

I would say that if knowing this thing about her is bugging you, then let her know you don't want that information.

Personally I would go with "The way you described your threesome made you sound pretty creepy frat boy. It creeps me out a bit and I don't want to know about you being like that."

• If you get on with her and, with the exception of her telling you a story that offended you, everything else looks peachy, just establish a healthy boundary about those types of stories.
  
  
• If her describing that situation is something that changes how you feel about her, then change the nature of your association to fit the new reality.

Most of the problem I see in your situation is centered around you not standing by your boundaries. When I say "no," it would be a mistake to continue pushing me. I take my boundaries very seriously, and flagrantly stepping on them is a hard stop. Red flag.

If you are saying that this person is coercing or otherwise emotionally abusing you, then I hope that you talk to someone about how to get yourself out of that situation and someplace safe.

 

[Magdlyn]

There is just no way you should have had unprotected sex with her after she told you she'd just had unprotected sex with two other people, one a complete stranger. That's on you, dude.

And I'd be totally turned off to even have sex with someone who had just coerced two people into having sex while they were too drunk to consent. Really, that's like, almost as low as you can get. How do you get turned on to someone who would do something like that? You seem to like her "aggressively sexual" nature. Are you a sub? Do you know Dommes can be dom-asses, just like men can? How's your own self-esteem doing? Are you okay?

You can go back to just being friends with this predatory-seeming person, you know. I hope you start to take your own mental and sexual health as seriously as we, some strangers on the internet, do.

 

[TXretired]

You heard the response. Now get tested, as she violated the agreement. Then run. She will never be better than she is now.

 

[HaloOnFire]

You can go back to just being friends with this predatory-seeming person, you know.

No, no OP really cannot. Friends don't do things like this to other friends. Not if they want to keep them, they sure as hell don't.

 

[PolyElectric]

There is just no way you should have had unprotected sex with her after she told you she'd just had unprotected sex with two other people, one a complete stranger. That's on you, dude.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious. Do you think I don't know that already?!

And I'd be totally turned off to even have sex with someone who had just coerced two people into having sex while they were too drunk to consent. Really, that's like, almost as low as you can get. How do you get turned on to someone who would do something like that? You seem to like her "aggressively sexual" nature. Are you a sub? Do you know Dommes can be dom-asses, just like men can? How's your own self-esteem doing? Are you okay?

I am not a sub. Or I don't think I am. One more thing that I didn't want to originally share is that we work together and she is technically my superior at work. The night I had unprotected sex with her, I was turned off by what I knew, but I also didn't know the whole story yet, I had not talked to Marji yet. I also felt blindsided, I had spent the whole weekend missing her and was excited to see her and have sex with her again. In the moments leading up to sex, I felt like if I made a big deal about anything it would hurt the relationship, and might cause consequences at work. So in that way I submitted to my fears, I guess... But I didn't enjoy it. I laid down with my eyes closed until she was done and I felt gross and ashamed afterwards. It just all took my by surprise. I have never felt the way I did that night with anyone before, paralyzed in a way, or maybe, as you say, submissive.

You can go back to just being friends with this predatory-seeming person, you know. I hope you start to take your own mental and sexual health as seriously as we, some strangers on the internet, do.

Believe it or not, I do take my sexual health seriously, which is why I am so distraught about this whole thing. I thought when Emma and I decided to start having unprotected sex together that it meant we would be using protection with others. I came here to get advice about how to talk to her about how I am feeling.

I don't think Emma means to be this way. She is actually very sweet and caring, but she has some sort of issue with sex, maybe, especially when she is intoxicated. And I think what might be part of her problem is that she seems to change when she drinks alcohol. She gets dead-eyed and depressed, and that seems to lead her into forceful/dominating aggression sometimes. She calls it "getting triggered", but I don't know exactly what she means by it.

Because I have been her friend I also know that Emma has had sexual traumas in her past. She was violently raped about two years ago and has been in therapy before. There is just so much more to her than this sex issue. She isn't a bad person. I know her.

Marji is the one that brought the bartender back to the airbnb, by the way, and no one knows Emma better than Marji. I don't know if I made that clear earlier.

I just wish I could go back in time and do something about this. I wish she would at least just talk to me about what is going on, and what happened that night, from her perspective.

 

[GalaGirl]

One more thing that I didn't want to originally share is that we work together and she is technically my superior at work.

That adds another complication.

In the moments leading up to sex, I felt like if I made a big deal about anything it would hurt the relationship, and might cause consequences at work. So in that way I submitted to my fears, I guess.

It sounds like you were afraid, because you thought that your boss would act out at you at work, and make your life difficult there if you said "no" to sex with her, even though you were turned off and not into it right then.

I think dating your boss is not a good idea because of this very thing. It can get really messy when there's a skewed power dynamic.

I hope you consider making this a personal boundary moving forward. No dating bosses and coworkers. They are on the "messy people" list.

But I didn't enjoy it, I laid down with my eyes closed until she was done and I felt gross and ashamed afterword's.
It just all took my by surprise. I have never felt the way I did that night with anyone before, paralyzed in a way, or maybe as you say submissive.

Trying to close your eyes, distance yourself, and not be there, is how some people try to cope with assault.

Try to be kind to yourself in these first few days.

The paralysis could have been the shock of it all. Some people go "fight" or "flee," and some "freeze" with the body's stress response when overloaded.

No one is using the word rape, but I feel like my gf Emma had non-consensual sex with the bartender and Marji. and I don't know how I feel about it.

I gently suggest you think about making a counseling appointment to help you process all this. You said "nobody is saying rape," but it not is not sounding great. Calling it "non-consensual sex" doesn't make it any better.

I'm not sure what internet forum people can do, if you are struggling to process the fact that maybe Emma raped some other people, and/or raped you, and left you dealing with very hard thoughts and feelings. It might be best for your health and well-being to talk with a professional who could help guide you better than random internet people.

You could call:

National Sexual Assault Hotline
Hours: Available 24 hours
1-800-656-4673

Homepage - RAINN

How Does RAINN Help Survivors? No matter who you are, where you’re from, or what you’ve experienced, RAINN is here for you. Join Our Community

www.rainn.org

Or if you have health insurance from work, see what counseling resources you can access through that.

I came here to get advice about how to talk to her about how I am feeling. I don't think Emma means to be this way. She is actually very sweet and caring. But she has some sort of issue with sex, maybe, especially when she is intoxicated. She seems to change when she drinks alcohol. She gets dead-eyed and depressed and that seems to lead her into forceful/dominating aggression sometimes. She calls it "getting triggered", but I don't know exactly what she means by it.

I'm not sure trying to talk to her again is the best thing to do, when previous attempts to talk with her just end up with her being defensive and explosive. I think it would be better for you to talk to someone else first, professionals.

You may be right that she has a problem with alcohol. That isn't for you to solve, though. It's on Emma to do that work... if she even wants to.

But hanging around a person who goes into forceful/dominating aggression towards others, an aggression you have trouble standing up to or walking away from, I don't know if you can feel safe around her right now. I imagine it must be very hard for you, trying to process all this. I urge you to take a time out and spend some time on your own for a few days, so you can make some calls and seek help on the local level.

Because I have been her friend, I also know that Emma has had sexual traumas in her past. She was violently raped about two years ago and has been in therapy before... There is just so much more to her than this sex issue. She isn't a bad person.

I'm sad to hear this happened to Emma. But again... recovery from all that is stuff for Emma to deal with. You cannot cannot solve these things for her. These things happening to her doesn't make it okay for her to behave badly toward others.

You can only control your OWN behavior. I hope you choose to step back and bit and talk to a counselor. Do some thinking and some soul searching.

I just wish I could go back in time and do something about this.

I know.

I wish she would at least just talk to me about what is going on, and what happened that night, from her perspective.

Well... sounds like she already told you.

As soon as Emma got back from the trip she told me that she had unprotected sex with the bartender and Marji on her trip. But she said something else that gave me pause. She said that she "made them have sex"...

I'm not sure what else you want to hear. Would you be willing to say? Maybe an apology, for drinking and things getting out of hand? Pushing the bartender and Marji into non-consenting sex/rape? For not using condoms with other people? For pressuring you into unprotected, non-consenting sex/rape?

Even if she apologizes, what then? Would you still want to keep dating her, or being friends? Or would you rather walk this back to a professional relationship at work only? Change jobs and get away from her?

These are not easy things to think about, and this JUST happened. So... breathe. And please reach out to professional help for guidance. That would be my suggestion.

Galagirl

 

[PolyElectric]

I'm not sure what else you want to hear. Would you be willing to say?

Thank you, GalaGirl, for the kind words. I just want to clarify that I am not trying to say Emma assaulted me. Please be cautious about how you are interpreting what I am saying. I don't want to talk to a counselor about it. I need to talk to Emma about it. Deep down, I don't think she really meant to make me or Marji feel this way.

The reason I want to talk to her about it is to hear her side of the story... I feel like maybe I am jumping to conclusions or something. Maybe it was the bartender that was at fault for some of this. But I guess what I want answers on is if she meant to make us feel this way, and if so, if she regrets it or not, or thinks that ethical, and if not, if she is interested in changing... Part of me thinks she doesn't want to talk about it because she feels guilty, which probably means she feels bad about how it went down.

The problem is, I also realize that I shouldn't really be getting involved, because what happened is between them, and not me. But I also care about how she's treating others, so I am having trouble figuring out where my own boundaries should be and how appropriate it is to question her about what she did while she was in New Orleans. Does anyone have advice on how you should care about how your partner is pursuing sex with others? Part of me feels like it's not my business. Part of me feels like it affects me.

I basically want to know the same things about what happened between her and me, with the unprotected sex, if she meant to make me feel that way, and how we can change the dynamic. And yes, part of me does want an apology, because we were just starting to build something together and I feel disregarded by her actions. Does it make sense for me to feel disregarded? Is it all in my head? That's something else I don't know. So I guess I want to hear that she is sorry and will be more careful and considerate in the future...

Again, I don't want to throw all this away for literally one weekend that went awry. She has never told me anything like this before, or described any past sex in this same way, so it might be a one-off situation.

 

[kdt26417]

You could say to her, "Could we please talk about what happened in New Orleans? I am concerned about that, and I am hurt by what happened to me afterwards." It's a little hard to sugarcoat what you are going to say, because you are trying to address something she did that was wrong.

 

[GalaGirl]

I just want to clarify that I am not trying to say Emma assaulted me. Please be cautious about how you are interpreting what I am saying.

You were there, so I'll go with whatever you want to call it.

I want answers on is if she meant to make us feel this way, and if so, if she regrets it or not, or thinks that ethical. And if not, if she is interested in changing... Part of me thinks she doesn't want to talk about it because she feels guilty, which probably means she feels bad about how it went down.

Then I guess you could ask.

I know you don't want a counselor, but perhaps reflect on that.

If you trying to talk with her on your own leads to her becoming defensive and explosive, perhaps having the conversation with a professional present to help guide you both would be more productive. You could ask if she's willing to talk to you with a counselor present.

I honestly don't know what else to tell you. You have to be the one to decide what you want to do.

Does anyone have advice on how you should care about how your partner is pursuing sex with others? Part of me feels like its not my business. Part of me feels like it affects me.

I think you could care how your partner pursues sex with other people. Who she picks to date or share sex with might not be your business, but how she behaves with them is your business, if she's also your lover.

If it were me, I'd care how my partner behaves sexually with other people, because his behavior can affect me.

In the simplest form, if he has unprotected sex with others, doesn't practice safer sex, that would be a problem to me. I can't tell him what to do with his body. But I do get to say what happens with MY body.

I could solve it by not being fluid bonded with him. I want condoms used with me. The other option is not sharing sex with him anymore. That also solves it.

When you add not listening, and being aggressive toward people, to not using condoms and safer sex practices, that would not a great combo, to me.

I basically want to know the same things about what happened between her and me with the unprotected sex. If she meant to make me feel that way, and how we can change the dynamic. And yes, part of me does want an apology, because we were just starting to build something together and I feel disregarded by her actions.

You can ask for an apology and ask about those things. Maybe write her an email, if talking out loud gets you off topic or off track, somehow. But you can ask. Whether or not she answers you honestly, or at all-- that part is on her.

If she doesn't respond, or tries to sweep it under the rug, or tries to pretends this never happened, or that this doesn't affect you, and won't see that you are upset, and won't take personal responsibility for her actions, then it's on you to decide if you want to deal with a partner who does things like that, and whether or not you want to keep associating with her.

Does it make sense for me to feel disregarded? Is it all in my head?

If she disregarded you and basically ran right over you not wanting sex right then? Didn't obtain clear consent, didn't listen to you, acted so forward and dominating, whatever you want to call it... Bottom line, it was not a consensual joyful sex share with you.

You can feel upset and/or angry about being disregarded. You are not imagining things. It is not all in your head. You were there. You experienced this.

If someone treated me like that, I'd be very upset.

I guess I want to hear that she is sorry and will be more careful and considerate in the future... Again, i don't want to throw all this away for literally one weekend that went awry. She has never told me anything like this before, or described any past sex in this same way, so it might be a one-off situation.

That is up to you. For me, if a man behaved like that toward others, and toward me, I wouldn't try to understand why, and I wouldn't try to work anything out. I'd be done. But I respect we are different people and you have a lot to process and decide. Just be careful that you aren't letting her poor behavior slide just because she's a woman and you are a man, or just because she's your boss and can make your work life tough.

Galagirl

 

[dingedheart]

I think you could care how your partner pursues sex with other people. WHO she picks to date or share sex with might not be your business. HOW she behaves with them is your business if she's also your lover.

If I share sex with my partner, I care how he behaves with other people, because his behavior can affect me.

Could care, or should care?

If you decide to care about how your partner pursues sex, wouldn't you naturally care about who she is sharing sex with and the methods and practices in said behavior? At the end of the day, isn’t it all intermingled? Aren’t we making an assessment on someone's judgment?

Said another way, if a red flag goes up over here, and a red flag goes up over there, but this critically-related area is none of your fucking business. I don’t see how you get it both ways.