Poly Communication Issues

[ShirenTheWanderer]

Then NO.

The only other option is Apple going back to Banana's house that is laden with emotional baggage from an abusive marriage and a deceased daughter. I volunteered to take the couch, so they could stay together in a safe place and comforting place.

Banana and her kid(s) cannot move in. When you don't even have a bedroom of your own yet and are on the couch.

Why add to the pressure cooker?



So no moving in til this remodel is done and you can have your own bathroom/bedroom then.

Given that there's all this land... can the house be added on to?

Can there be two cottages added so you have your own space and Banana has their own space?

So you are living together on the same land but not all on top of each other?

Yes, we can add on to the house, and we have actually talked about adding, renovating, and/or adding a garage with a guest room/bathroom on top. I cleared it all and we could do a lot.

Glad that resonated. It doesn't have to be hard. The FEELINGS might feel tough. But the actions seem straightforward. Each dyad needs to figure out what it is now in THIS new chapter of life.



I encourage you to think about your own health and well being then.

Good advice.

Most welcome.

GG

 

[ShirenTheWanderer]

Are you saying neither of your domestic partners, who claim to love you, and like you, do NOT pay attention to you, or ever ask you a question (how was your day? what do you think about this? what do you want for dinner? do these jeans make my ass look fat?)? And they never touch you?

Sometimes, they ask about how something went that I left the house for. Apple meal plans and I add suggestions. Banana hugs me when they see me and when they leave, or to say goodnight. Apple has been standoffish recently. When I read what you wrote, it looks pretty bad, but I'm sure if is quite there.

Or maybe Apple does touch you, when THEY FEEL LIKE IT, maybe Banana touches you, once a week, but no one really cares about your opinion on anything, and you just always let your partners decide what's going to happen in the family, where you are going, what you are eating, when you may make any changes to your environment whatsoever. Are you that submissive?

Can you explain this more?

Banana does hug me about twice a day. Right now, Apple does not initiate any contact at all. Well, I'm sure they care about my opinions on stuff, I am sure if I asked they would say they do. I should probably pay more attention to this on a day-to-day basis. Yes, because of my previous sleep issues, I feel tremendous guilt about imposing when I am awake. Plus, it is brought to my attention on a regular basis that I am a white man, and I'm okay, but I am a part of a terrible group of humans, which historically I am, and this adds to me not feeling comfortable speaking up about anything. Tie that all together with my ACOA background, and it seems as though, yes, I am that submissive. A lot of this is my fault. I am really a difficult person to pin down with opinions. Again, ACOA issues. Also, both Apple and Banana have asked for my input on things, but they don't appreciate when I change my mind. I explained that if I get more information on something, or if someone makes a compelling argument, my stance may change. I am consistently kind, patient, accepting, and supportive, but that doesn't translate to meeting the communication expectations. So, I am taking all of this advice from the thread and trying to process what it is I can affect with direct and clear communication and what I cannot.

Putting all of this into words is a lot.

Their boundaries around having conversations where your opinion is sought and valued? Their boundaries around a good morning or good night hug and kiss? Their boundaries around [paying attention to you] looking at you at all, so you feel noticed and that you matter? Has it really come to that: no questions, no touches (no matter how casual), no attention coming your way at all?

Can you not even ask Apple for a hug, or a back scratch, or something? Does she shrink away if you seem to be trying to hug her, or even letting your legs touch while sitting on the couch watching TV or something?

How are these "solid friendships"? It sounds pretty cold in your world.

:-( Well, yeah, it is cold for me, but when they need something done they ask. Apple doesn't shrink away, but they are really stiff around me, like when our feet touch, or I hold their hand at night if I am in the bed. This may have to do with the sleep issues, but when I asked, they said they were matching my energy, but don't make conversation or respond to physical contact when I initiate it. As I mentioned before, Apple's responses to me are very reserved.

I am trying to get a chance to have all of these conversations with Apple and Banana. I tried this morning, but family stuff come up, so that didn't work out. I have vocalized to both of them that I need to talk to them, together, and they said okay. Maybe tomorrow will work out. I am optimistic.

 

[Bobbi]

My personality type puts me in your shoes and I’m hurting from reading this. I think it’s time to ignore what’s being said to you by apple and banana because their words are placating and mean nothing. This is a very clear case of actions speak louder than words. Eventually you’ll wake up and realize you wasted so much of your life not Living it to your best ability, wrapped up in people who didn’t care enough about you to let you go. I truly hope this is sooner than later.

I wish you a happy life and truly fulfilling relationships.

 

[GalaGirl]

The only other option is Apple going back to Banana's house that is laden with emotional baggage from an abusive marriage and a deceased daughter. I volunteered to take the couch, so they could stay together in a safe place and comforting place.

That is not the only option if Banana needs to move soon. Another option is Banana getting a "stepping stone" home, that is not THIS home they are in, with the bad memories, but still not moving in with you and Apple just yet.

Is a year's lease in a flat somewhere doable? Maybe moving closer?

Yes, we can add on to the house, and we have actually talked about adding, renovating, and/or adding a garage with a guest room/bathroom on top. I cleared it all and we could do a lot.

If the plan is to remodel, so there will be an "over-the-garage flat," having Banana and her kid(s) living in a stepping stone flat would give another space to retreat to, if the noises and dust and all gets overwhelming while the garage flat is being built. Shoot, maybe get next-door flats, for a year of remodeling, to get everyone out of the way of the construction.

You don't have to detail your property or plans online, but Banana moving here RIGHT NOW is not the only option. It's ok to slow some of this down.

Well, yeah, it is cold for me, but when they need something done they ask. Apple doesn't shrink away, but they are really stiff around me, like when our feet touch, or I hold their hand at night if I am in the bed. This may have to do with the sleep issues, but when I asked, they said they were matching my energy, but don't make conversation or respond to physical contact when I initiate it. As I mentioned before, Apple's responses to me are very reserved.

This "matching the energy" thing is weird. Cuz if you came across all cuddly, I don't think Apple would "match it." I could be wrong, but I wonder if Apple is kinda done, but feeling guilty and not wanting to say, since it was their idea to take up with Banana and do a triad, but now Apple doesn't want to be in the triad.

Are you bumping into the 4 horsemen from Gottman?

• Criticism?
• Contempt?
• Defensiveness?
• Stonewalling?

Eventually you have to be willing to ask the hard questions and get ON with sorting all of it. I hope counseling helps you find your voice, the ability to speak your truth, if even at a whisper, or to write it down in a letter for Apple to read in a counseling session.

Ask your counselor to help you organize/write it. But advocate for yourself. You sound super isolated and lonely.

Putting all of this into words is a lot.

I can see that. But you are at least TRYING to think and sort in your thread.

GG

 

[Magdlyn]

Sometimes, they ask about how something went that I left the house for.

[/QUOTE]

"So, did you get the laundry detergent brand I wanted?" Nice. I'm being sarcastic, but is it at that level?

Apple meal plans and I add suggestions.

And they take your suggestions?

Banana hugs me when they see me and when they leave, or to say goodnight.

I'm glad there's that, at least.

Apple has been standoffish recently. When I read what you wrote, it looks pretty bad

It is, my friend.

but I'm sure if is quite there.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

Apple does not initiate any contact at all.

OK, so no hugs, kisses, cuddles, much less sex.

Well, I'm sure they care about my opinions on stuff. I am sure if I asked, they would say they do.

What they say is different from what they actually (feel and) do, as has been pointed out.

I should probably pay more attention to this on a day-to-day basis.

Yes.

Yes, because of my previous sleep issues, I feel tremendous guilt about imposing when I am awake.

Because you accidentally and unconsciously touched them sexually in your sleep, you feel you can never touch them again when you're conscious and awake? Is that fair?

And, by the way, if your narcolepsy is brought on by anxieties, be aware that facing your anxieties and issues consciously, with a counselor, should then reduce the narcolepsy, right? That's another motivator for you. Let your "shame and guilt" over your narcoleptic behaviors motivate you to deal consciously with your deeply-buried issues and fears. If we don't deal with our psychological issues, and just try to repress them, the body knows, and will act out against our wishes in other, unpleasant, ways.

Plus, it is brought to my attention on a regular basis that I am a white man. I'm okay, but I am a part of a terrible group of humans. Historically I am, and this adds to me not feeling comfortable speaking up about anything.

That is very harsh feminism/intersectionality. Are your (ahem/housemates) partners people of color? Can you help what your antique ancestors did? Can you not be seen for the man/person you are and not as just one of a privileged group? Did you ask to be born a cis white male; did they ask to be born female/queer/trans/non-binary, etc.?

Are your flaunting your cis white male privilege around like a flag? I bet you're not, and never have. Yet, they (and I'm guessing it's more Apple) are taking their feminist anger out on you, since you're submissive and just lie down and take it.

Personally, I fully believe the patriarchy hurts men almost as much as women.

Tie that all together with my ACOA background, and it seems as though, yes, I am that submissive. A lot of this is my fault.

...

I am really a difficult person to pin down with opinions. Again, ACOA issues.

Is that part of the "communication problems"? It seems to be that, if you did express opinions, you'd be shot down by Apple anyway. Often, if we don't deal with childhood trauma, we sadly choose partners who are similar to our parents, because it feels familiar. That's part of the cycle of abuse.

Apple and Banana have asked for my input on things, but they don't appreciate when I change my mind. I explained that if I get more information on something, or if someone makes a compelling argument, my stance may change.

Everyone is allowed to do that! That's part of life. We don't all have the same take on life at age 20 as we do at 25, 30, 40, 60... Experience makes us change as people! That is called personal growth. Sheesh.

I am consistently kind, patient, accepting,

Maybe too patient and accepting.

and supportive, but that doesn't translate into meeting the communication expectations. So, I am taking all of this advice from the thread and trying to process what it is I can affect with direct and clear communication and what I cannot.

Putting all of this into words is a lot.

:-( Well, yeah, it is cold for me, but when they need something done they ask. Apple doesn't shrink away, but they are really stiff around me, like when our feet touch, or I hold their hand at night if I am in the bed. This may have to do with the sleep issues

Well, now you're on the couch. Actually, when GG mentioned an over-the-garage flat upthread, I thought you'd get relegated to that space while Apple and Banana and their kids got the run of the house! And if someone was going to take a flat while renovations were going on, I thought you'd get to go live in a one-bedroom apartment, again, while the others all got the house. Then Apple wouldn't have the stress of keeping themselves stiff around you in fear your feet might touch or shoulders might brush.

Seriously, they don't seem to like you much at all, but seem actively repelled by you and using you as a punching bag.

but when I asked, they said they were matching my energy, but don't make conversation or respond to physical contact when I initiate it. As I mentioned before, Apple's responses to me are very reserved.

I am trying to get a chance to have all of these conversations with Apple and Banana. I tried this morning, but family stuff come up, so that didn't work out. I have vocalized to both of them that I need to talk to them, together, and they said okay. Maybe tomorrow will work out. I am optimistic.

You can schedule it like a business meeting. Set up a day and time. Get the kids out of the house, or get a sitter and go somewhere where you can be uninterrupted. (Ideally that would be a therapist's office.)

 

[MeeraReed]

One thing that jumped out at me. The shame you feel around your sleep-groping issue.

I am honestly not sure that the sleep-groping would be such a big deal in a context where your partner(s) were more comfortable around you physically and more into sex/touching with you. (Except for cases where it specifically triggers someone's past traumas). Like, my partner has occasionally starting grinding against me in his sleep and I just elbow him to roll over to his side of the bed. It does not make me feel unsafe and it's not something I would make him sleep on the couch for...although unrelatedly, we long ago found that we sleep better in our own rooms.

I guess your narcolepsy issue is more serious than that. But still. It sounds like you feel very unloved in your relationships and you blame yourself mostly.

Whereas, with a different partner you might feel totally different and the sleep-groping might not feel so dreadful and insurmountable.

What I see is you trying to have relationships with two people who aren't into you physically.

You recognize, quite correctly, that you aren't entitled to have them be into you physically...but you do also have your own needs to be with someone physically, no?

 

[Magdlyn]

One thing that jumped out at me. The shame you feel around your sleep-groping issue.

I am honestly not sure that the sleep-groping would be such a big deal in a context where your partner(s) were more comfortable around you physically and more into sex/touching with you. (Except for cases where it specifically triggers someone's past traumas). Like, my partner has occasionally starting grinding against me in his sleep and I just elbow him to roll over to his side of the bed. It does not make me feel unsafe and it's not something I would make him sleep on the couch for...although unrelatedly, we long ago found that we sleep better in our own rooms.

Honestly, I think if you asked any woman who has ever lived with her male lover and slept with him, you would find an infinite number of ways we have been humped or groped by a man who is asleep or half asleep and barely aware or unaware of what he is doing.

Hell, just last weekend I was sleeping with my man, and got up to go pee, and came back to bed, snuggled/spooned in next to him and placed my hand on his belly. He was snoring away, but after a couple of seconds he took my hand from his belly, and placed it lower down, on his erection! I giggled. I thought it was cute.

I guess your narcolepsy issue is more serious than that. But still. It sounds like you feel very unloved in your relationships and you blame yourself mostly.

Whereas, with a different partner you might feel totally different and the sleep-groping might not feel so dreadful and insurmountable.

Most people (women or men or non-binary people), I think, know that if they're partnered with a person with a penis, they are gonna pop up, sometimes with a will of their own. It's gonna get pressed against your back or ass. If the guy's arm is across your body, and encounters a breast, it's gonna get squeezed. The only solution is separate beds/rooms, or a king-sized bed, with separate blankets. Maybe if you sleep with your children, a barrier of a kid or two or three will keep the man away from you. I've never asked my ex-husband/coparent point blank, but I sure don't get turned on when a person half my size is against my body, but when a full-sized beloved partner is, I do get turned on. Women get turned on in their sleep too, for that matter. We have erotic dreams, we wake up wet. Let's be real.

Anyway, I won't belabor this point any more.

What I see is you trying to have relationships with two people who aren't into you physically.

You recognize, quite correctly, that you aren't entitled to have them be into you physically...but you do also have your own needs to be with someone physically, no?

Right. There is a LOT of repression of needs and desires going on. I feel bad about it.

 

[ShirenTheWanderer]

My personality type puts me in your shoes and I’m hurting from reading this. I think it’s time to ignore what’s being said to you by apple and banana because their words are placating and mean nothing. This is a very clear case of actions speak louder than words. Eventually you’ll wake up and realize you wasted so much of your life not Living it to your best ability, wrapped up in people who didn’t care enough about you to let you go. I truly hope this is sooner than later.

I wish you a happy life and truly fulfilling relationships.

Thanks. I hope it isn't really that bad yet. I appreciate your words of kindness.

 

[ShirenTheWanderer]

That is not the only option if Banana needs to move soon. Another option is Banana getting a "stepping stone" home, that is not THIS home they are in, with the bad memories, but still not moving in with you and Apple just yet.

Is a year's lease in a flat somewhere doable? Maybe moving closer?

That is an interesting idea. I don't think either Apple or Banana would be on board with that though. The reno really takes center stage in the conversations.

If the plan is to remodel, so there will be an "over-the-garage flat," having Banana and her kid(s) living in a stepping stone flat would give another space to retreat to, if the noises and dust and all gets overwhelming while the garage flat is being built. Shoot, maybe get next-door flats, for a year of remodeling, to get everyone out of the way of the construction.

You don't have to detail your property or plans online, but Banana moving here RIGHT NOW is not the only option. It's ok to slow some of this down.

Yeah, we do actually have a lot of options. Our business is also working with houses, so I thought maybe one of our rentals, or reno projects, could act as that stepping stone you mentioned. Again, I think it would be crushing if I suggested it.

This "matching the energy" thing is weird. Cuz if you came across all cuddly, I don't think Apple would "match it." I could be wrong, but I wonder if Apple is kinda done, but feeling guilty and not wanting to say, since it was their idea to take up with Banana and do a triad, but now Apple doesn't want to be in the triad.

That is a tough one for me, as Apple has been my paramour and so much, but I do understand people grow and change. This weird middle space is really difficult to exist in though.

Are you bumping into the 4 horsemen from Gottman?

• Criticism?
• Contempt?
• Defensiveness?
• Stonewalling?

Maybe. I haven't heard of this before now. I see nuggets of those things pop up in our very strained conversations sometimes, but I think I may be too close to it to see it clearly.

Eventually you have to be willing to ask the hard questions and get ON with sorting all of it. I hope counseling helps you find your voice, the ability to speak your truth, if even at a whisper, or to write it down in a letter for Apple to read in a counseling session.

Ask your counselor to help you organize/write it. But advocate for yourself. You sound super isolated and lonely.

I like the idea of writing it all out. I do better that way usually. When I talk I stumble through my thoughts and aggravate people.

I can see that. But you are at least TRYING to think and sort in your thread.

GG

I am trying and having this space is priceless.

 

[GalaGirl]

That is an interesting idea. I don't think either Apple or Banana would be on board with that though. The reno really takes center stage in the conversations.

You can ask and put forth your own ideas for how to handle the renovations. When I did renos, I took a flat just to get out of the way, and not live in the dust and yuck of construction, even though I came to the site daily to check in with the project manager and answer questions.

And gently... If you want to take a time-out year for your wellbeing, you can say you want to do that, and then do it. They don't have to be on board with it.

You would all live in the main house together as a "three-person yes," not just because Apple and Banana say so, like two people get to decide for the whole group, and then you just have to go with it, with no voice of your own. Everyone gets a vote. You don't have to vote yes. I get that might sound shocking or scary, if your habit is to be submissive and a "people pleaser." But DANG. Y'all have rental property and OPTIONS. Why not exercise them?

Yeah, we do actually have a lot of options. Our business is also working with houses, so I thought maybe one of our rentals, or reno projects, could act as that stepping stone you mentioned. Again, I think it would be crushing if I suggested it.

Yup. You actually have a LOT of options most poly people don't get. I certainly don't have 10 acres of land and a business working with houses and rentals and things.

Crushing to WHOM? What is terrible about people having some feelings? Y'all are gonna be having them anyway. It is a transition time for all the dyads, a time of changes.

It could be the other way. Banana could move in with Apple, and YOU could move out to a transition stepping-stone flat. If a rental property is available, YOU can take it while doing the garage remodel. I mean, if you do end up poly-dating down the line, outside of Apple and Banana -- maybe you'd want your own space to do that in? Don't just think about the next year; think five years out.

You being in the transition rental property, and then later in the garage flat: these arrangements might also ease your stress about accidentally groping people in your sleep, and reduce the relationship pressures in the dyads.

I could be wrong, but to me, y'all sound soooo cooped up together and enmeshed that you are at risk of imploding from the pressure cooker. There is such thing as TOO MUCH togetherness.

If you eventually take the new garage flat, you will still be on the property and nearby, right? It's not far. That's close enough. You just all get a little more elbow room.

If you have been with Apple since you were 16, I think taking one of the rental properties, even if not onsite, might actually be good for you. At least it's worth kicking around with the counselor as an option and to try on in your head, right?

Maybe you'd like to spend a transition year, learning to be on your own two feet, spreading your wings a little, making friends, getting out and about, having people over, doing more of your OWN activities, before coming back to the property onsite in the new garage flat.

Talk to your counselor about whether any codependent things apply here. I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but maybe you want to look into CODA book.

CoDA.org

Recovery program for codependence. Find a local or online meeting. If you desire healthy & loving relationships CoDA can help.

coda.org

This weird middle space is really difficult to exist in though.

Yes, it is challenging and weird. The old normal is gone. The new normal is not here yet.

If it's going to be weird living with Apple right now, or just weird in general, then how about you "PICK your weird"? Maybe try living in a flat on your own during reno, then a garage flat later, giving a wee bit more elbow room to everyone. You can still see each other, share meals, etc.

It's okay to try new things, detangle some, and see what THAT "new weird" is like. You might even like some of it!

I like the idea of writing it all out. I do better that way usually. When I talk I stumble through my thoughts and aggravate people.

Good. Write it down, then. However you do it, speak your truth. Stop shrinking yourself so much.

I am trying and having this space is priceless.

I am glad you are trying, and I'm glad you have this thread, a space for yourself. It's okay for you to take up some SPACE and some ROOM in your own life. It's not like you are only a "supporting cast" character in the "The Life of Apple" or "The Life of Banana." There IS a thing called "The Life of ShirenTheWanderer."

Wander, even if just a little, by trying on some new ideas in your head. Think about a rental property for a year of reno, then moving to the new flat over the garage.

GG

 

[ShirenTheWanderer]

Sometimes, they ask about how something went that I left the house for.

"So, did you get the laundry detergent brand I wanted?" Nice. I'm being sarcastic, but is it at that level?
[/QUOTE]
No. It is genuine. It is also just a rare thing, like a once a week class or once a month book club, or some special event. Not related to anything daily or typical.

Apple meal plans and I add suggestions.

And they take your suggestions?

Occasionally, I am terrible with food. I am a functional eater and have to look up ideas online. Apple is a legit cook, so they typically ask me to stop after a few suggestions. Sometimes I have a good one they like and take it. I am good at prep and clean up, which I do happily every night.

Banana hugs me when they see me and when they leave, or to say goodnight.

I'm glad there's that, at least.

Yep.

Apple has been standoffish recently. When I read what you wrote, it looks pretty bad

It is, my friend.

but I'm sure if is quite there.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

Sorry, that was supposed to say, "I'm not sure if it is quite there." Just being hopeful and stuff.

Apple does not initiate any contact at all.

OK, so no hugs, kisses, cuddles, much less sex.

No.

Well, I'm sure they care about my opinions on stuff. I am sure if I asked, they would say they do.

What they say is different from what they actually (feel and) do, as has been pointed out.

I should probably pay more attention to this on a day-to-day basis.

Yes.

Yes, because of my previous sleep issues, I feel tremendous guilt about imposing when I am awake.

Because you accidentally and unconsciously touched them sexually in your sleep, you feel you can never touch them again when you're conscious and awake? Is that fair?

It isn't about fairness. It's about other people being comfortable and feeling safe. How can I be there and show up and do all of the things a caring and loving partner does in a healthy relationship if the other person, or people, don't feel safe? It isn't intentional, but it happened and undermined so much.

And, by the way, if your narcolepsy is brought on by anxieties, be aware that facing your anxieties and issues consciously, with a counselor, should then reduce the narcolepsy, right? That's another motivator for you. Let your "shame and guilt" over your narcoleptic behaviors motivate you to deal consciously with your deeply-buried issues and fears. If we don't deal with our psychological issues, and just try to repress them, the body knows, and will act out against our wishes in other, unpleasant, ways.

I agree and that is the bulk of what we are working on.

Plus, it is brought to my attention on a regular basis that I am a white man. I'm okay, but I am a part of a terrible group of humans. Historically I am, and this adds to me not feeling comfortable speaking up about anything.

That is very harsh feminism/intersectionality. Are your (ahem/housemates) partners people of color? Can you help what your antique ancestors did? Can you not be seen for the man/person you are and not as just one of a privileged group? Did you ask to be born a cis white male; did they ask to be born female/queer/trans/non-binary, etc.?

Are your flaunting your cis white male privilege around like a flag? I bet you're not, and never have. Yet, they (and I'm guessing it's more Apple) are taking their feminist anger out on you, since you're submissive and just lie down and take it.

Personally, I fully believe the patriarchy hurts men almost as much as women.

The patriarchy is shit. Well, Banana is of Persian descent and Apple has always (since before 16) been a strong feminist. In this climate, I don't know what they can separate. I will ask when they are ready to talk.

Tie that all together with my ACOA background, and it seems as though, yes, I am that submissive. A lot of this is my fault.

...

I am really a difficult person to pin down with opinions. Again, ACOA issues.

Is that part of the "communication problems"? It seems to be that, if you did express opinions, you'd be shot down by Apple anyway. Often, if we don't deal with childhood trauma, we sadly choose partners who are similar to our parents, because it feels familiar. That's part of the cycle of abuse.

Well, Apple and I both had trauma that "fit" together. As we are dealing with our trauma the relationship is changing into something else. Sometimes my opinions are shot down by Apple, but not all the time. They think very differently than I do.

Apple and Banana have asked for my input on things, but they don't appreciate when I change my mind. I explained that if I get more information on something, or if someone makes a compelling argument, my stance may change.

Everyone is allowed to do that! That's part of life. We don't all have the same take on life at age 20 as we do at 25, 30, 40, 60... Experience makes us change as people! That is called personal growth. Sheesh.

Well, yes, but I have a history of being evasive, or vague, and sometimes I just don't have an opinion or answer to a question because it hasn't been in my wheelhouse. In the past, when this happened I just said whatever popped into my head. This knee-jerk panic reaction has definitely messed the communication up.

I am consistently kind, patient, accepting,

Maybe too patient and accepting.

I don't think so. I'm not patting myself on the back or saying these are special traits. I'm just describing the parts of me that would make me a good partner if communication wasn't such a challenge.

and supportive, but that doesn't translate into meeting the communication expectations. So, I am taking all of this advice from the thread and trying to process what it is I can affect with direct and clear communication and what I cannot.

Putting all of this into words is a lot.

:-( Well, yeah, it is cold for me, but when they need something done they ask. Apple doesn't shrink away, but they are really stiff around me, like when our feet touch, or I hold their hand at night if I am in the bed. This may have to do with the sleep issues

Well, now you're on the couch. Actually, when GG mentioned an over-the-garage flat upthread, I thought you'd get relegated to that space while Apple and Banana and their kids got the run of the house! And if someone was going to take a flat while renovations were going on, I thought you'd get to go live in a one-bedroom apartment, again, while the others all got the house. Then Apple wouldn't have the stress of keeping themselves stiff around you in fear your feet might touch or shoulders might brush.

Seriously, they don't seem to like you much at all, but seem actively repelled by you and using you as a punching bag.

Damn. That was hard to read. I hope that isn't the case. In regard to the flat and bonus room, etc. I was thinking I would be there too for the same reasons you pointed out. A place to exist and give Apple the space to relax and the space for Banana to be safe.

but when I asked, they said they were matching my energy, but don't make conversation or respond to physical contact when I initiate it. As I mentioned before, Apple's responses to me are very reserved.

I am trying to get a chance to have all of these conversations with Apple and Banana. I tried this morning, but family stuff come up, so that didn't work out. I have vocalized to both of them that I need to talk to them, together, and they said okay. Maybe tomorrow will work out. I am optimistic.

You can schedule it like a business meeting. Set up a day and time. Get the kids out of the house, or get a sitter and go somewhere where you can be uninterrupted. (Ideally that would be a therapist's office.)

I am trying. I have asked them the past two days to talk and that I needed to talk to them and had questions. It hasn't worked out yet and I get the feeling neither one of them is ready to talk to me. It is very tense. That is a great idea, I think that would help. Yes, the ideal place would be the therapist's office, but I am not sure they want to go back. I will check tomorrow. They actually just left to stay at Banana's, I'm going to stay up and write tonight.

 

[ShirenTheWanderer]

One thing that jumped out at me. The shame you feel around your sleep-groping issue.

I am honestly not sure that the sleep-groping would be such a big deal in a context where your partner(s) were more comfortable around you physically and more into sex/touching with you. (Except for cases where it specifically triggers someone's past traumas). Like, my partner has occasionally starting grinding against me in his sleep and I just elbow him to roll over to his side of the bed. It does not make me feel unsafe and it's not something I would make him sleep on the couch for...although unrelatedly, we long ago found that we sleep better in our own rooms.

I guess your narcolepsy issue is more serious than that. But still. It sounds like you feel very unloved in your relationships and you blame yourself mostly.

Whereas, with a different partner you might feel totally different and the sleep-groping might not feel so dreadful and insurmountable.

What I see is you trying to have relationships with two people who aren't into you physically.

You recognize, quite correctly, that you aren't entitled to have them be into you physically...but you do also have your own needs to be with someone physically, no?

I think you are saying something that I am worried is true. The idea is just a bit overwhelming to me right now. When we do get the opportunity to talk, I hope both Apple and Banana can be honest with me about where they are with me.

 

[GalaGirl]

I think you are saying something that I am worried is true. The idea is just a bit overwhelming to me right now. When we do get the opportunity to talk, I hope both Apple and Banana can be honest with me about where they are with me.

And I hope when you do get to talk you can be honest with THEM that this isn't really doing it for you. It isn't fulfilling, it's making you feel weird, and you don't like it.

• Cuz Apple is fine with you dating other people.
• So you have to renegotiate with Banana so they are good with it or break up with them so then it doesn't play into your romantic life.
• You are ok being platonic roomies on the property if that is where it lands.
• You are not ok in endless "limbo."

Cuz you spending your whole life with partners who are "meh" about actually being romantic partners and lovers with you, they just want to be domestic partners and coparents and won't ever say that up front, but then complain about "communication problems" because they want YOU to be the one to say it first?

Well, they have each other for the romantic/lover part.

You can also desire that kind of companionship. You have needs, too.

I get that speaking up is hard for you, but this going round and round in circles because nobody wants to be the first one to actually say anything real, everyone afraid of losing each other and just pussyfooting, going around in circles, that is also hard for you. If everything feels hard, you have to take the path that leads to improved wellbeing and just deal with the hard.

I'm not seeing what anyone is doing about CONNECTING to each other authentically, or moving anything forward.

Speak your truth, but that is not all that is needed here:

• Apple has to speak their truth.
• Banana has to speak their truth.

But both of them shirking doing their parts is no reason for you to not to do your part. Right?

I am trying. I have asked them the past two days to talk and that I needed to talk to them and had questions.

Ask about setting up a counselor appt that works for them. Set it. You do whatever individual sessions you need to before then to prepare. Then talk together at the group counselor appt when the time comes, even if in a written letter format.

Have a limit of tolerance. If they keep blowing off sessions, talk to counselor about what the reasonable next steps could be for you, then. Cuz you can't play ball with people who don't show up. You don't have to keep going in circles if you don't want to. You can stop buying a merry-go-round ticket and not ride this ride.

Galagirl

 

[ShirenTheWanderer]

Honestly, I think if you asked any woman who has ever lived with her male lover and slept with him, you would find an infinite number of ways we have been humped or groped by a man who is asleep or half asleep and barely aware or unaware of what he is doing.

Hell, just last weekend I was sleeping with my man, and got up to go pee, and came back to bed, snuggled/spooned in next to him and placed my hand on his belly. He was snoring away, but after a couple of seconds he took my hand from his belly, and placed it lower down, on his erection! I giggled. I thought it was cute.

Most people (women or men or non-binary people), I think, know that if they're partnered with a person with a penis, they are gonna pop up, sometimes with a will of their own. It's gonna get pressed against your back or ass. If the guy's arm is across your body, and encounters a breast, it's gonna get squeezed. The only solution is separate beds/rooms, or a king-sized bed, with separate blankets. Maybe if you sleep with your children, a barrier of a kid or two or three will keep the man away from you. I've never asked my ex-husband/coparent point blank, but I sure don't get turned on when a person half my size is against my body, but when a full-sized beloved partner is, I do get turned on. Women get turned on in their sleep too, for that matter. We have erotic dreams, we wake up wet. Let's be real.

Anyway, I won't belabor this point any more.

Right. There is a LOT of repression of needs and desires going on. I feel bad about it.

I missed this post last night/this morning. There is definitely repression that I am feeling confident enough to work toward putting an end to. I know that dealing with the repressed feelings will help with the sleep issues at least.

 

[ShirenTheWanderer]

And I hope when you do get to talk you can be honest with THEM that this isn't really doing it for you. It isn't fulfilling, it's making you feel weird, and you don't like it.

• Cuz Apple is fine with you dating other people.
• So you have to renegotiate with Banana so they are good with it or break up with them so then it doesn't play into your romantic life.
• You are ok being platonic roomies on the property if that is where it lands.
• You are not ok in endless "limbo."

Yes, these are all points I plan on making when we talk.

Cuz you spending your whole life with partners who are "meh" about actually being romantic partners and lovers with you, they just want to be domestic partners and coparents and won't ever say that up front, but then complain about "communication problems" because they want YOU to be the one to say it first?

Well, they have each other for the romantic/lover part.

You can also desire that kind of companionship. You have needs, too.

I am cognizant of this, but it is very natural for me not to self-advocate in relationships. My truth gets lost very easily in all social interactions.

I get that speaking up is hard for you, but this going round and round in circles because nobody wants to be the first one to actually say anything real, everyone afraid of losing each other and just pussyfooting, going around in circles, that is also hard for you. If everything feels hard, you have to take the path that leads to improved wellbeing and just deal with the hard.

I'm not seeing what anyone is doing about CONNECTING to each other authentically, or moving anything forward.

Speak your truth, but that is not all that is needed here:

• Apple has to speak their truth.
• Banana has to speak their truth.

But both of them shirking doing their parts is no reason for you to not to do your part. Right?

That sounds reasonable.

Ask about setting up a counselor appt that works for them. Set it. You do whatever individual sessions you need to before then to prepare. Then talk together at the group counselor appt when the time comes, even if in a written letter format.

We may be forgoing the counselor and just doing this on our own. I asked Apple and Banana about therapy, and neither expressed the same interest. I am okay with that though, I have been making notes and have the questions I want to ask. Also, after being reminded about NVC, I know that I will be taking a kind and non-threatening approach when we do talk.

Have a limit of tolerance. If they keep blowing off sessions, talk to counselor about what the reasonable next steps could be for you, then. Cuz you can't play ball with people who don't show up. You don't have to keep going in circles if you don't want to. You can stop buying a merry-go-round ticket and not ride this ride.

Galagirl

I do like the idea that I am choosing my own weird. That is another point that you have made that strikes a cord within me. Especially since I know where my boundaries are, what I need, and what I can negotiate on. There is a lot of acceptance in this house, so even though I know the conversation will not be comfortable, and very scary, I am confident that we will figure out a new dynamic that meets everyone's needs and wants.

 

[Magdlyn]

So even though you three sought help from a counselor before, neither partner seems interested in going again, despite telling you they can't communicate with you. Hmm. Didn't counseling help at all, before?

Maybe they think their communication skills are perfect and it's just you that needs help.

Maybe they are stonewalling you and not really interested in improving their relationships with you in any way.

Maybe they'd rather finally grant you one talk, and you come all prepared with your notes and determined to use NVC, and they just shoot you down at every turn, a united feminist front against the bad bad white cis male.

Maybe they've given up on you and just can't bring themselves to tell you they're done.

When you first got with Apple, your neuroses matched up. You are able to sort of support each other through your late teens and early adult years. But now, perhaps since Apple has come to a new place, a new gender, a new partner, your input into their life as an intimate partner is just not needed. They say: Be more like Banana. And when you try, they say, no, that feels fake. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't, it seems.

Unless they (plural) are willing to have a few good productive talks, or resume counseling, I don't see any other options for you than to disentangle. Go take a break in one of your rental properties and let the air clear. Get yourself some more individual therapy around your PTSD, around being pushed aside by your partners. You went from a couple, to a V, to a triad, to whatever this is now. It's complicate!

If possible, learn to take care of yourself, learn how to feel safe and actually feel good, instead of constantly seeking love from people who don't want to give it (as in your childhood). You're not getting any younger and we only get one life. It's up to you to make it a better life. These people are not willing to save you or help you, it seems to me.