Poly or avoidance?

Yes

New member
Hi,
I posted here before about my relationship with Tony, with whom I am in a relationship with. He lives with Jane, and although I would have preferred a kitchen-table polyamory, she prefers all relationships to be separate. In any case, Tony and I still see each other regularly and he has finally been able to embrace his bisexuality and gone on a few dates with men.
My question with polyamory is: why bother? If Jane does not meet his needs, why does he continue a relationship with her? Why not simply end things and remain friends? They can love each other without being a couple. She pays his rent, and he agrees to keep relationships separate from each other. This sounds great, but it leads me to wonder if he is just avoiding having to do the hard work of being in a more traditional relationship?

In other words, Are we (poly-minded folks) prioritizing our sexual needs and simply avoiding heartbreak/ the hard work that comes with being by ourselves or with someone new by moving into open and poly relationships? I sort of mean this in a philosophical way; in many posts I read, people seem like they remain friends or roommates with one person and then seek the sex or attention they need (nothing wrong with that) outside the relationship, and instead of giving up one partner to find a more suited partner, they cling to the old one. When this concept works, it seems to be beautiful. But many posts I read, it sounds like people give up on their ideal relationship to settle for one in which they can continue to live with their spouse or lover and also have outside relationships. My question is why not admit that the old relationship no longer meets those needs and allow each to grow and move on?
I think polyamory can be a beautiful thing (and I’ve read many good examples here), but sometime it seems as if it is sometimes people simply wanting to find an easier path: continue one relationship that meets some needs and then start a new one that fulfills others, rather than embracing the struggles that relationships bring or being willing to say, hey, this isn’t working, I love you, but my desire lie elsewhere. In other words, I wonder if we are really seeking a new form of relationship or simply carrying on in ways that are allow us to eliminate struggles that come with love.
Just to reiterate, I think some poly relationships really work and people can have them, but I wonder also if poly is sometime used as a way to get around “rocking the boat” when really the boat needs rocking.

(And also I speak relating to my own experience where divorce was a hard decision but needed to allow us each to grow as individuals.)

PS I also understand that one partner can meet all needs, but it seems that most of poly is about sexual needs. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
 
Why do you assume Jane does not meet his needs? Because he has other relationships? That's typical mono thinking on your part. For me, there's no concept of "enough" in that way. I don't date other people because my one partner isn't enough.

As I recall, you were in a marriage where the two of you opened up in order to try and fix something. A lot of couples try that, but it rarely works. If anything, poly amplifies existing problems.

A lot of mono couples also open up to be sexually adventurous. That is not necessarily poly. It could be some other form of consensual non-monogamy.

Poly is generally considered as having more than one loving or romantic relationship, or open to that possibility. That doesn't necessarily mean every relationship is sexual, not does it mean every relationship is super serious. I had a nesting partner. We got along great. We had great sex. I also had a girlfriend that was on the verge of becoming very serious. I had another girlfriend who was more of a play partner because she was polysaturated but liked to play. I also had two LDRs. All those relationships enriched my life. They were all "enough" to be in my life.
 
Hi,
I posted here before about my relationship with Tony, with whom I am in a relationship with. He lives with Jane, and although I would have preferred a kitchen-table polyamory, she prefers all relationships to be separate. In any case, Tony and I still see each other regularly and he has finally been able to embrace his bisexuality and gone on a few dates with men.
My question with polyamory is: why bother? If Jane does not meet his needs, why does he continue a relationship with her? Why not simply end things and remain friends? They can love each other without being a couple. She pays his rent, and he agrees to keep relationships separate from each other. This sounds great, but it leads me to wonder if he is just avoiding having to do the hard work of being in a more traditional relationship?

In other words, Are we (poly-minded folks) prioritizing our sexual needs and simply avoiding heartbreak/ the hard work that comes with being by ourselves or with someone new by moving into open and poly relationships? I sort of mean this in a philosophical way; in many posts I read, people seem like they remain friends or roommates with one person and then seek the sex or attention they need (nothing wrong with that) outside the relationship, and instead of giving up one partner to find a more suited partner, they cling to the old one. When this concept works, it seems to be beautiful. But many posts I read, it sounds like people give up on their ideal relationship to settle for one in which they can continue to live with their spouse or lover and also have outside relationships. My question is why not admit that the old relationship no longer meets those needs and allow each to grow and move on?
I think polyamory can be a beautiful thing (and I’ve read many good examples here), but sometime it seems as if it is sometimes people simply wanting to find an easier path: continue one relationship that meets some needs and then start a new one that fulfills others, rather than embracing the struggles that relationships bring or being willing to say, hey, this isn’t working, I love you, but my desire lie elsewhere. In other words, I wonder if we are really seeking a new form of relationship or simply carrying on in ways that are allow us to eliminate struggles that come with love.
Just to reiterate, I think some poly relationships really work and people can have them, but I wonder also if poly is sometime used as a way to get around “rocking the boat” when really the boat needs rocking.

(And also I speak relating to my own experience where divorce was a hard decision but needed to allow us each to grow as individuals.)

PS I also understand that one partner can meet all needs, but it seems that most of poly is about sexual needs. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

You're absolutely right. Some people choose poly as the wrong answer to the right questions about their lack of or current relationships and then they understand where the issue lay and have mono relationships.

However, I think you're walking dangerous ground here because maybe you were one of the people I mentioned and now you're assuming he is too. Not just assuming, I think I detect a bit of hope in there.
 
My question with polyamory is: why bother?

Well, every person answers that for themselves. Why they want to be doing poly or not. And then HOW they want to be doing poly. It is up to the people involved to figure out how they want to be together and what relationship model they want to practice. .

If Jane does not meet his needs, why does he continue a relationship with her? Why not simply end things and remain friends?

If Tony is doing that with Jane? It's for Tony to answer.

If you are doing that with Tony? Like you you started with Tony during your divorce as "FWB for now is good enough" and have outgrown it? Because your wants during a divorce and after are different? That's for you to answer.

This sounds great, but it leads me to wonder if he is just avoiding having to do the hard work of being in a more traditional relationship?

Well, is he?

Are you?

Just to reiterate, I think some poly relationships really work and people can have them, but I wonder also if poly is sometime used as a way to get around “rocking the boat” when really the boat needs rocking.

I've seen some people do that.

Like "relationship broken, add more people." So they can avoid breaking up because seeing other people makes the wonky one more endurable than if they weren't seeing other people.

Or try to use poly as a "soft exit" -- like line up the new person before dumping the old person. Because they don't want to be alone. Cuz maybe they think it is an easier sell -- "Let's poly! Great for both cuz we both get to date!" Because who is gonna sign up for "hey, I want to split up, but I want to line up my new person before we actually do. You cool with that?"

Or like "make do with this wonky poly" because they don't want to end whatever they are in to seek something else that suits them better -- a different model poly. Monogamy. Being alone. Whatever.

PS I also understand that one partner can meet all needs, but it seems that most of poly is about sexual needs. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Polyamory is about many loves. Not necessarily sex.

In your old post, you had wondered if this was worth it. You had decided to give it more time and be patient and enjoy.

Well, you have clocked more time here since then. You and Tony are now at two years. Presumably if he isn't rocking his boat, he's willing for it to be how it is. This is what you are going to get here.

I'm wondering if you are back at the same place -- wondering if this is worth it?

I could be wrong, but it's like you are generalizing when you could mean it more specific. Are you? Like this....


I think polyamory can be a beautiful thing (and I’ve read many good examples here), but sometime it seems as if it is sometimes people simply wanting to find an easier path: continue one relationship that meets some needs and then start a new one that fulfills others, rather than embracing the struggles that relationships bring or being willing to say, hey, this isn’t working, I love you, but my desire lie elsewhere. In other words, I wonder if we are really seeking a new form of relationship or simply carrying on in ways that are allow us to eliminate struggles that come with love.

Could have been written like.... (and I quote just to visually block it off)


I think polyamory can be a beautiful thing (and I’ve read many good examples here), but sometime it seems as if I simply want to find an easier path: continue one relationship that meets some of my needs and then start a new one that fulfills others.

Rather than embracing the struggles that relationships bring or being willing to say, "hey, Tony, this isn’t working. I love you, but my desire lies elsewhere."

In other words, I wonder if I am really seeking a new form of relationship or simply carrying on in ways that allow me to eliminate struggles that come with love.

Is that what's going on?

If I am wrong, and it's mainly about

My question with polyamory is: why bother? If Jane does not meet his needs, why does he continue a relationship with her? Why not simply end things and remain friends?

I think you could ask Tony what's up with that. Cuz nobody here can mind reader him. Only Tony can answer why he chooses to participate in a relationship that doesn't meet his needs.

Galagirl
 
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Hi Yes,

You seem to be describing a situation in which one person (e.g., Tony) lives with another person (e.g., Jane), and the two people have kind of a meh relationship, especially in the sexual area, like they should either shit or get off the pot, like they should either do the hard work of fixing their relationship, or they should break up, but they are too cowardly to do either of those things, because either of those things would interrupt the convenient ease of just living together without any turbulence. And because they're poly, they can still meet their sexual needs with other partners, and thus they have no incentive to fix their sex life with each other, and since they're not monogamous, they don't have to make do with just having one partner each, so, why bother with the discomfort of breaking up?

When you put it that way, the question kind of answers itself. They endure their meh relationship because it's easier that way. As long as they have a placid relationship, a lack of conflict, they have a hassle-free life at home, and that, in and of itself, has value to them. With poly, they are able to meet their other needs elsewhere. In a word, they are avoiding the difficulties that monogamous people have to face. Poly is not encouraging them to build intimacy, it is making it easier for them to avoid intimacy and the challenges thereof. For some people, that is a tempting offer. Not everyone values intimacy, and the work involved, as much as you and I do. Poly provides a convenient solution for nesting couples who don't want to leave each other, and don't want to disturb their meh relationship.

Obviously, poly is not healthy for everyone.
Some thoughts, from Kevin T.
 
Still wondering

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies!
I enjoy this site because I don’t know many poly people, even though I’ve attended poly-friendly events and a discussion group.
Tony and I are still seeing each other, and we both explore other relationships. I know that I could put in the hard work to continue to be poly with him, but I also wonder (always with the wondering!) if the work I am doing serves me and my soul in the best way.
I think this is why I resonated with all of your replies - I feel he is scared to be vunerable and seeks the easy way with his meh relationship with his girlfriend (although to be honest, maybe it is not meh at all! Because we honor her choice to remain disentangled, I feel I am lacking any clarity.)
I feel I am scared to do the work to accept his relationship with her. I am also glad that my former husband and I ended things amicably; that instead of trying to continue with a poly relationship where neither of us was fully satisfied but felt the urge to get our emotional and sexual needs elsewhere, separation has allowed us high to grow as individuals and yet continue as friends. I guess I am interested in this line between love and friendship. What constitutes love and how does it manifest itself? And from that, how do we define and redefine what a relationship is? In many ways, I am drawn to poly because of its beauty and openness as well as its variations, and I thank you all for sharing and expanding my worldview!
 
Thank you all for your thoughtful replies!
I enjoy this site because I don’t know many poly people, even though I’ve attended poly-friendly events and a discussion group.
Tony and I are still seeing each other, and we both explore other relationships. I know that I could put in the hard work to continue to be poly with him, but I also wonder (always with the wondering!) if the work I am doing serves me and my soul in the best way.
I think this is why I resonated with all of your replies - I feel he is scared to be vunerable and seeks the easy way with his meh relationship with his girlfriend (although to be honest, maybe it is not meh at all! Because we honor her choice to remain disentangled, I feel I am lacking any clarity.)
I feel I am scared to do the work to accept his relationship with her. I am also glad that my former husband and I ended things amicably; that instead of trying to continue with a poly relationship where neither of us was fully satisfied but felt the urge to get our emotional and sexual needs elsewhere, separation has allowed us high to grow as individuals and yet continue as friends. I guess I am interested in this line between love and friendship. What constitutes love and how does it manifest itself? And from that, how do we define and redefine what a relationship is? In many ways, I am drawn to poly because of its beauty and openness as well as its variations, and I thank you all for sharing and expanding my worldview!

I think you need to get your nose out of his perfectly functional relationship with Jane and work on own jealousy and self esteem. I don't think this poly thing is for you because I strongly believe you're one of those people who were lonely in your marriage and looking for someone to fill the spot of your husband because you're too scared to be alone. Now, you're trying to convince Tony he is in the same position as you were so you can get him to yourself.

This isn't anything new. I've seen it play out many times. I've seen it play out on here. That person finally realized they are totally monogamous and is in a mono relationship with someone who wants the same thing. You know how many people that person hurt and messed around on that journey just because she couldn't accept incompatibility? Not nice. Selfish. Don't do that.
 
I know that I could put in the hard work to continue to be poly with him, but I also wonder (always with the wondering!) if the work I am doing serves me and my soul in the best way.

Are you saying you are bending yourself into too many pretzels to keep going with Tony? And you aren't sure this is a healthy way of relating? Or a healthy relationship to be in?

I feel he is scared to be vunerable and seeks the easy way with his meh relationship with his girlfriend (although to be honest, maybe it is not meh at all!

That's all his stuff to deal with. Not yours. What (Tony + Jane) do on their side of things is up to Tony and Jane. Not you.

Because we honor her choice to remain disentangled, I feel I am lacking any clarity.)

What clarity do you need in the (Tony + You) relationship that Tony is not giving you? And you think Jane is supposed to give you?

I feel I am scared to do the work to accept his relationship with her.

Scared of WHAT work? Are you able to articulate?

What constitutes love and how does it manifest itself?

I like the Greek definitions.


I also like Sternberg Love Theory.

Really it is up to you to answer that for yourself. Because YOU decide what "counts" to you and you experience how it manifests for you.

And from that, how do we define and redefine what a relationship is?

I think the people in the relationship define it.

Galagirl
 
I would address the issue of why are so opposed to parallel poly (keeping the relationships separate). You are very scornful of Jane's preference for parallel poly. Why?

Personally, I tend to think that when inexperienced poly people automatically feel a preference for kitchen table poly, it's because they feel a need to control their partner's other relationships. You feel you don't have "clarity" without seeing Jane and Tony's relationship for yourself. You are annoyed that Jane won't allow you to be involved in their relationship as kitchen table poly. You can't imagine how Tony gets anything out of his relationship with Jane because it's not what you would choose.

Why can't you respect their privacy and trust Tony to know what's best for himself? Why do you assume their relationship is "meh" rather than a source of love and delight for Tony even if he and Jane aren't very compatible sexually (or whatever)?

Sure, polyamorous relationships can sometimes be a "bandaid" for a failed relationship for someone who doesn't want to blow their life up by leaving. But, monogamy can work that way too. I know many people in monogamous marriages who are staying mostly because they are afraid to be alone or afraid to blow up their life. I know other people who are single and not totally happy, but unwilling to do the work of dating to fix their unhappiness. People make their choices. I would actually say that polyamory is less likely than monogamy to have people passively going along with unhappiness because you have to do so much work to actively maintain other relationships--and because you could leave someone for your other partner without having to deal with being "alone." Your options are more obvious in polyamory.

It sounds like you kind of want Tony to leave Jane and just be with you. That doesn't sound very fair to Jane.
 
It does sound like you are positioning yourself, whether consciously or not, to try and become a primary or something. There is no need for clarity of your partner's other relationships beyond knowing they are being conducted ethically. What you need clarity on is whether or not he can give you the time and attention you need in your relationship with him.

As for what constitutes love, relationships, etc... that's really up to the individual.
 
Thanks again. Just an update: I decided that I wasn’t being true to myself and felt I was “bending myself into pretzels” to remain in the relationship with Tony. He was truthful in his intents, but I am looking for big love where people help each other, respect each other by listening to each others’ needs and desires, and work for ways to develop these within a group setting and not close each other off, although I respect that for some people having very distinct or separate relationships works well. Perhaps I have a hippee commune style love in mind or just a KT polycule. I am a giver and sharer by nature, but I also expect the same in return. In any case, I wish the best for him, and myself, so we are going our separate ways. I will continue my journey.
 
Experience tells me that this need is born out of a need to control, as MeeraReed said. I know this by the way you still talk about her preference for you not to be a great presence in her life as something lesser. Saying you're looking for "big love" whatever that is implying that this love they want is "small". Talking about respect and mutual support as something they are lacking but is inherent in your model because they won't agree to have you in their relationship monitoring and critiquing. Something you need because you can't stand the thought of them having intimacy you're not involved in.

You're desperate for a companion and a primary relationship is my guess, and poly is just the way you try and increase the likelihood of meeting someone, anyone, who can make you less lonely. Most of us have seen this before. I think it is more common with women. Best bet to have healthy relationships is to get some therapy and understand where this need is really coming from.
 
I'm sorry to hear about the break up, Yes. Even though I think you are probably right in parting ways since you want something more "kitchen table poly" and he and Jane practice more like "very separate V."

Still... even when the best thing to do, breaking up isn't fun. I hope time gives you healing.

GL!
Galagirl
 
Hi Yes, thanks for that update. It sounds like you have come to the realization that you and Tony are simply incompatible with each other, and have made the brave decision to therefore part ways. This can't be easy to do, so I give you kudos for doing it. You will be able to move on and grow stronger and wiser, and maybe Tony will be able to do that as well. Sometimes breaking up is the best thing you can do in a relationship.
 
Experience tells me that this need is born out of a need to control, as MeeraReed said. I know this by the way you still talk about her preference for you not to be a great presence in her life as something lesser. Saying you're looking for "big love" whatever that is implying that this love they want is "small". Talking about respect and mutual support as something they are lacking but is inherent in your model because they won't agree to have you in their relationship monitoring and critiquing. Something you need because you can't stand the thought of them having intimacy you're not involved in.

You're desperate for a companion and a primary relationship is my guess, and poly is just the way you try and increase the likelihood of meeting someone, anyone, who can make you less lonely. Most of us have seen this before. I think it is more common with women. Best bet to have healthy relationships is to get some therapy and understand where this need is really coming from.

i appreciate your concern and thought that I need therapy. And I see you seem to have a stereotypical view of what women want.However, my desire for big love does not make theirs small; it means that I see their style of poly as separate and individualized rather than group-minded.They have the right to have individual needs and desires, and I simply want something different, and so I have moved on. I would say that was mature on my part. That does not mean I need therapy or will have unhealthy relationships. I do need people around me to feel less lonely — to me this is the human condition. We are social creatures by nature. If we were not, then humankind as we know it or as we may imagine it in utopian forms would not exist. I know nothing about you except that you seem pretty judgmental and do not seem to embrace that there are multiple ways of being poly or simply loving.
 
i appreciate your concern and thought that I need therapy. And I see you seem to have a stereotypical view of what women want.However, my desire for big love does not make theirs small; it means that I see their style of poly as separate and individualized rather than group-minded.They have the right to have individual needs and desires, and I simply want something different, and so I have moved on. I would say that was mature on my part. That does not mean I need therapy or will have unhealthy relationships. I do need people around me to feel less lonely — to me this is the human condition. We are social creatures by nature. If we were not, then humankind as we know it or as we may imagine it in utopian forms would not exist. I know nothing about you except that you seem pretty judgmental and do not seem to embrace that there are multiple ways of being poly or simply loving.

I'm not stereotyping all women, I'm saying you fit a pattern of many "poly" women I've seen over the years. First you start to invalidate their relationship (why do they stay together when they OBVIOUSLY don't love each other/want each other sexually?). Then you start to attack their preferred relationship style by insinuating that they (mostly she) isn't really poly (she wants to pretend I don't exist). Then when you understand you won't get your way, and you won't get the guy to yourself, you flounce away and discredit the "size" or capacity of them to love.

In my experience, a strong desire for KTP is ALWAYS about one person who needs the opportunity to meddle in the other relationships to feel secure. KTP is a bit like a closed triad, it should be a natural evolution from a parallel relationship to KTP. KTP is an unrealistic aim to have when the relationship has barely even begun. You're trying to force people into boxes
 
my desire for big love does not make theirs small; it means that I see their style of poly as separate and individualized rather than group-minded.

There seems to be some confusion over what you mean by big love. This "Big Love" idea, did you get it from the TV show? Big, referring to the size of the "love group," not necessarily a better kind of love. The only time I've heard of people using the term Big Love is on HBO.
 
There seems to be some confusion over what you mean by big love. This "Big Love" idea, did you get it from the TV show? Big, referring to the size of the "love group," not necessarily a better kind of love. The only time I've heard of people using the term Big Love is on HBO.
I am not using the term in the sense of the tv show. I simply use it as a stand-in for an additive model rather than a compensatory model.in other words, my ideal polhamorous relationship involves being able to love multiple people in a myriad of ways while remaining open and connected within all relationships without only focusing on finding people to meet specific needs. Polyamory can take on many forms, which is exciting to me. For some, “small” (or what perhaps I should have better termed “distinct” polyamory) is the best fit, but for others (and not just because we are women new to poly), it is not perhaps the mode we desire.
(We could also see this as a preference for KTP. I do not see this as a negative. It is simply a preference.)
 
How was he stopping you from connecting to various partners? The only person who wasn't up for any relationship with you was the person he was in love with. You could have found other people who didn't mind this interconnected polycule. Just because one person he was with didn't want that, you couldn't deal. That's not a preference. That's a need born out of insecurity and an urge to control. I know you think you're different from the other people who use KTP as a way of keeping tabs on other relationships and comparing but this is exactly what they'd say to justify why they need to be so involved.
 
I posted here before about my relationship with Tony, with whom I am in a relationship. He lives with Jane. Although I would have preferred kitchen-table polyamory, she prefers all relationships to be separate.

My question with polyamory is: why bother? If Jane does not meet his needs, why does he continue to be in a relationship with her? Why not simply end things and remain friends? They can love each other without being a couple.

She pays his rent, and he agrees to keep relationships separate from each other. This sounds great, but it leads me to wonder if he is just avoiding having to do the hard work of being in a more traditional relationship?

In other words, are we (poly-minded folks) prioritizing our sexual needs and simply avoiding heartbreak and the hard work that comes with being by ourselves, or with someone new, by moving into open and poly relationships? ...In many posts I read, it sounds like people gave up on their ideal relationship to settle for one in which they can continue to live with their spouse or lover and also have outside relationships. My question is, why not admit that the old relationship no longer meets those needs and allow each to grow and move on?

I see you used the terms "traditional" and "ideal relationships." What is traditional? Monogamy? What is ideal, also monogamy, or your seeming ideal, KTP, where you live with multiple lovers and metas and all cooperate and get along perfectly in a big old kumbayah moment?

I think, as we live and grow in experience, we realize that we can break with "tradition" and how we were taught it was proper to do relationships. In most of our cultures, monogamous MF marriage, a house, 2 cars, 2 kids and a dog was considered proper. Perhaps this is most people's "ideal."

But if you really feel like living poly is for you, you might be working towards the scenario of multiple people/families all living together and getting along perfectly. That might be your ideal poly situation. For some polyamorists, it can sound like the 7th circle of hell.

I think polyamory can be a beautiful thing (and I’ve read many good examples here), but sometimes it seems as if people simply want to find an easier path: continue one relationship that meets some needs and then start a new one that fulfills others, rather than embracing the struggles that relationships bring...

It's not an either/or. Sometimes the older relationship is great in many ways, but not 100% fulfilling. Just as you can have several friends who share this or that interest with you, but not all of them, so can multiple romantic partners meet some needs, but not others. We can let go of the "ideal" that one person can be our "everything." That is generally a false romantic notion supported by NRE, pop songs, and movies anyway.

Be willing to say, "Hey, this isn’t working. I love you, but my desire lie elsewhere."

Sure, if the relationship is really dead, move on, but maybe, if you're poly, your desire lies in several places/persons. It's really that simple!

In other words, I wonder if we are really seeking a new form of relationship or simply carrying on in ways that are allow us to eliminate the struggles that come with love.

I'm not sure who this "we" is that you speak of. This is a poly board, we may face struggles every day in relationships, and yet we are still poly, and we work on our problems. Maybe you think Tony and Jane don't work hard enough on their problems. But that's really not your business, is it?

Just to reiterate, I think some poly relationships really work and people can have them, but I wonder also if poly is sometime used as a way to get around “rocking the boat” when really the boat needs rocking.

Yes, but that has no relation at all to choosing parallel poly or KTP.

I also understand that one partner can meet all needs, but it seems that most of poly is about sexual needs. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

As I said, it's rare that one partner can meet "all needs." That's why we have friends, children, maintain family relationships, have our hobby groups, and that's why if we are poly, we choose to have more than one romantic partner too.

Polyamory isn't (just) about sex, it's about love, and sharing interests that do not pertain to sex. Some polyamorists are also polysexual, or swingers, etc., but that is a different conversation.
 
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