Polyamorists who have had near death experiences

Well, I watched S1E1 of The Chosen and Mary Magdalene had about 2 lines right at the end. Some guy (not Jesus) apologized to her for saying terrible things, and she said no one had ever apologized to her before. They agreed vaguely that things were better now. And that was it. You wanted me to see this why? lol There was no "calling of the Magdalene," she was just some random woman who happened to be hanging around in the background. Of course, they saved her actual speaking part until the end, as that's the juicy part (although it was dry), just like in any show.
 
Have you always known you were poly, at some level, even if you've tried to run from it, hide it, bury it, suppress it, or deny it? (Because I went through all that<g>) If not, then when did you know?

What does this have to do with religion or near death experiences? Remind me again why you think it's necessary to find out if any polyamorous people have had NDEs. Thanks.
 
I am not an obstetrician or obstetrics nurse, but I do know that obstetricians and nurses do care very much about mothers and their babies. I found that those peers who choose this field tend to more openly display joy and caring. Nurses are often (not always) better at displaying that caring than doctors. Unfortunately, doctors are taught a ‘clinical distance’ which is supposed to keep one unemotional for decision making, but, in essence, just puts distance between doctor and ‘patient’. This model is losing credibility (not fast enough) but the teaching is hard to shake since we learn from those who went before us. It’s a tough call for mothers……a more natural birth at home in a calmer, controlled environment vs an obstetrics unit where if something goes wrong unexpectedly (and I’ve seen it go wrong fast) there is immediate help for life-threatening situations to baby or mother.
I just saw this. I am (was) not an OB nurse. I worked for 25 years as a La Leche League Leader and a lactation consultant. I had 2 planned homebirths with lay midwives and was also involved to an extent in the homebirths of others. And I heard hundreds of stories of birth from the mothers I counseled.

My first birth was in a hospital and was a nightmare because I felt so out of my element. The adrenaline in my body from being in that strange clinical environment was too much and overrode my oxytocin, and I eventually needed a c-section. I decided that homebirthing would be safer. And I knew an ambulance could get to my house in 3 minutes if the midwives were in over their heads. (And they weren't, as it turned out.)
 
Here's a (fun? interesting? problematic? you decide) mental exercise. Consider the following:
  • a human being
  • a cat
  • a dog
  • a horse
  • a cow
  • a fish
  • a rat
  • a spider
  • a honeybee
  • an ant
  • a mosquito
  • a cockroach
  • a virus
  • a blood cell
  • a cancer cell
  • a tree
  • a carrot
  • a robot
  • a calculator
  • a rock
  • a planet
Which of the above will have an afterlife? Which might? Which should, and why? Does it matter? Why or why not?
Hi Kev,

I have an update for you, after doing some preliminary research regarding your suggestion of brain activity after clinical death occurs, which I will address in another post, after responding to this post.

My Consciousness studies is one of my major ongoing studies and it's one of my most fascinating studies of all. You might as well have asked 'what is life?' On a Conscious Level alone, one could ask if a rock, a calculator, or a robot is a living entity at all? And if it's not living, then how then could it have an afterlife, if life wasn't present in the first place? (But there's way more to that story from the Christian and Quantum level viewpoints.)

Scientists can only study baryonic matter that represents only 5% of what we know exists (and that is a very small percentage of the totality when Dark Matter and Dark Energy is factored into the equation.) The true answer is no one really knows, regardless how gnostic we think we are.

Viruses are regarded as non-living entities, since they do not complete all 7 processes of life. Oddly enough, however, they do exhibit an agenda, as is demonstrated by the toxoplasma virus, a virus that infects its host via cats, turning fear into desire, deadly to rodents, which get attracted to cats. And for humans infected with it, it involves making bolder choices, which oddly enough may be why we are polyamorous (as well as being cat lovers<g>), with us making counter-intuitive moves against the monogamous tide.

The cycle starts with cats with toxo having infected feces containing the virus. Rodents...and humans, pick up the virus via the cat feces. The rodents then get switched from fearing cats into an attraction to cats, seeking them out, and so with dinner served, it repeats the cycle.

(As a note, several of us asked which character of the Matrix did they identify with the most. I saw myself as a cross between Smith and the Oracle. Oddly enough, both were of the machine world. Smith saw human beings as a virus not mammals, by behavioral traits, which raises a host of questions concerning this post. )

Cancer and blood cells are living entities, albeit not usually apart from a host that maintains its living existence. Cancer cells contain a disorder of uncontrolled growth, whereas blood cells may or may not as well.

According to Eastern theology, in a state of samsara, karma would normally dictate what state your rebirth would take, in this case, moving up or down the scale, with the consciousness of a cancer cell probably being transferred into a rock, and a functioning blood cell into a form of higher consciousness. If Jain theology (aka PETA on steroids) is correct, it would suggest our consciousness could exist in any animal form, be it cat, dog, horse, cow, fish, rat, spider, honeybee, ant, mosquito or cockroach, etc, and since we could be downgraded into them, we could naturally assume they too could have an afterlife, since it is we who could be them in a next life. Hmmm.

Carrots and trees are living entities, albeit of the plant kingdom, both suggesting an upward samsara movement to animal. However, I've often wondered if is it possible that a human being's consciousness in samsara could be transferred to a tree. And since the Bardo Thodol states that consciousness remains with the body for 49 days, if that tree is cut down and transformed into an inanimate object, say a chair, within that 49 days, is it possible that a human female may come in and sit in that chair, unknowingly sitting on your face, leaving you with unspoken thoughts of, "Why oh why, missus, couldn't you have done this when I was living as a human being?" (<g> Perhaps I should have warned you that I have a deliciously warped sense of humour.<g>)

(My three amigos triad all live separately apart, but when we do get together, I'll spring something like this in the middle of some deep thought discussion. My brother-mate is German born, and generally doesn't get the joke, much to my sister mate's and my delight, since it makes the joke that much funnier.<g>)

...Human beings<g>, the viral-mammals. My spiritual centering is Christian in thought, albeit often in a form that even most Christians wouldn't expect or know. I believe that no is lost, and that all of us will have an afterlife worth living.

St Paul suggested that we are all members of one body in Christ, like body parts all knit together as one, which generally keeps me wondering, "Just how many assholes can one body have?"

As for the planet, I see the Earth as the only living planet in the universe. If any of us should leave this planet, we would have to take everything with us we would need, including air, since we have no Planet "B". If that's the case, for better or for worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness or in health, we couldn't be more married to each other than we already are. We are stuck here together with each other, by some higher power that put us all here in this now, so I would rather it be better, richer, and healthier. To me it's self-evident that the Earth is one living organism with each of us married to each other and everything else. Yet there is a forecast of a new heaven and a new earth coming. So yeah, I believe there is an afterlife, even for a planet. (Have a good one guys. <g>.)
 
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Have you always known you were poly, at some level, even if you've tried to run from it, hide it, bury it, suppress it, or deny it? (Because I went through all that<g>) If not then when did you know?
Unfortunately Zay, I may not be one of the cases you’re looking for. I am not polyamorous, nor had I ever considered the possibility until 2 friends recently approached my wife and me about a more intimate relationship. This happened after I survived my NDE and decided I needed to live my ‘bonus life’ to the fullest. So ????random chance, ?????confluence of events, ?????serendipity……I don’t know. It nudged me to consider all possibilities. I am trying to determine if I feel a fit within a swingers, FWB, or poly lifestyle (and kudos to all of you who’ve figured this out……a stable pattern that works for you……it takes a great deal of dedication & energy and frankly, I am a little fatigued by all the possibilities). My wife and I are still uncertain at this point if we will proceed with any open relationship. We want to make sure whatever we choose, we are being true to our authentic individual selves. And, for greater context, I never considered the possibility that I was bisexual (or probably more correctly pansexual) until I met my wife, never dated more than one person at a time and had 3 long term monogamous relationships with 2 separate FWBs between those, no threesomes. So always one at a time…..I am only considering the possibility of more now. Perhaps I am simply a slow learner!
Are you able to remember what happened just prior to your NDE experience? Also if you know you were flatlined and for how long?
I was not ‘flatlined’ at any time but my heart was under a great deal of stress and I had a very high heart rate (no anomalous rhythms were recorded by the paramedics). My cerebral cortex shut down however during the NDE and my body went into apneustic breathing (a type of brainstem breathing which happens when breathing becomes decoupled from the cerebrum and higher regulatory centres). Fortunately for me this probably lasted for only approximately 30 seconds. I couldn’t tell how long I’d been gone from my body, and for my partner, it felt like an eternity, but that is her best estimate. She was locked onto my eyes and knew when I ‘left my eyes’ and when I came back. The breathing pattern lasted about 45 seconds……I distinctly remember the first few extremely painful breaths……my chest felt like it would explode and then suddenly, I was behind my body and there was no pain.
 
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Kev- (and the group),

In my last post I said there I have an update for you, after doing some preliminary research regarding your suggestion of brain activity after clinical death occurs, which I will address in another post, after responding to a post, ...well this is that post. I'm getting excited about starting a new thread, that I hope will help benefit our polyamory community as a whole for growth and support of poly ideals to to and for our poly people. That's the plan anyway, but first things first.

To recap, The title thread is called "Polyamorists who have had NDE experiences". I think that's pretty explanatory in and of itself without having to explain any further. A statement and question arose which were both valid points of view, on whether residual brain activity remained that could indeed be the cause of the NDE, with the response being, how could that be so if clinical dead with a flatline EEG ? Surely an EEG would detect ANY sort of neural activity present after clinical death, reguardless of how residual. I said at the time I'd check into it, and I have.

The answer is, both are correct, it depends on the type of death experienced. Brain death is death. Once the brain and stem are dead, the EEG goes flatline. Once the brain and stem are dead, there is no coming back, therefore if one experiences an NDE, it can't this variety of death, so if any other form of death occurs, the EEG will still operate till the brain and stem are flatline.

For example if major organ failure like the heart stops and can't be resuscitated, brain death is assured to occur within a 10 to 20 minute time window due to insufficient oxygen, then the brain dies, and the unfortunate cannot possibly return to tell us an NDE story. Ten to 20 minutes is still a pretty significant time window of brain activity for an NDE, and seems to me not only is it possible that the brain is involved in the context of the NDE, but has a pretty good probability of generating it and is definitely involved somehow.

It also begs a flurry of questions as well, like what actually is an NDE to be Near Death? Does it even involve being dead for however long and then revived? Or is it some form of dream in an unconsciousness state after some traumatic event? Is it some form of hallucination? Or is it some form of an out of body experience triggered by trauma and/or shock? Hmmmm.

One person reported back as being out of body and saw some kind of door/window within the experience.

The initial gist of the post was to throw the question out there to anyone who had an NDE experience specifically related to polyamorists to see if there's a pattern to our common experiences specifically involving NDEs in relation to us being polyamorist. Not all polyamorists have the same life experiences. Some like myself never would have, nor could have, identified with such obtuse words as polyamory or polyfidelity at the beginning. As a polyamorist, even struggling and dealing with the thoughts and emotions of wanting more than one partner while playing a monogamous role, I was and still am as radically Sigma as it comes (as are all 5 of my current closest partnerships); I'm also as radically Woke as it comes without generating all the negative attention; I'm also as radically egalitarian as it comes wanting both male and female partners involved.

My spouse was of the same nature, with us both possessing an overwhelming curiosity and desire to be involved into what we called group marriages. We researched it together (along with being avid historians, with an array of other interests which included art). That all took time. But that all sounds mighty polyamorist to me today as it would by any other polyamorist.

The point of subsequent questioning resulted from her NDE experience, allowing her to express it in her own words how she sees herself within the context of polyamory as well, if she was willing to share. What she said hit me core deep, and is core central to me personally as a spiritual poly, ringing off bells all over the place, especially about the door of her experience which only someone with an intimate tie to a LDS background in the concepts such as Covenant marriage and the words " Behold, I have set before you an open door", can explain to the group just what that means. ( Looks like you're up Kev to tell the group just what I'm talking about there. )

Her connection to the arts and writing as well. My MMF triad are all artists working both independently of and collaboratively with each other. My brother-mate, the German curmudgeon <g>, has Fine Arts degrees, and was a Fine Arts teacher, a professional photographer and currently runs a rare photographic process site on Facebook. Both my sister-mate and I are currently collaborating involving the presentation of her photographic artwork project called "Goddess". Me? I'm the polymath of the group currently doing some writing projects.

From what I am discovering thus far from this thread is that no NDE from anyone can be considered a glimpse beyond true death. So what is it? My guess is that it is said and known by many that a persons life flashes before there eyes prior to true death. For me, if I saw an open door in an NDE, I'd know exactly what it would mean to me, probably due to my earliest researches into polyamory that led to the Brigham Young era and especially the Oneida commune.
 
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Hi Zay,

Thanks for humoring me and taking a closer look at my mental exercise. I agree that something must constitute life in the first place, before it can have an afterlife. It sounds like you believe in reincarnation. Interesting thoughts about Earth being the only living planet.

Re: "What she said hit me core deep, and is core central to me personally as a spiritual poly, ringing off bells all over the place, especially about the door of her experience which only someone with an intimate tie to a LDS background in the concepts such as Covenant marriage and the words, 'Behold, I have set before you an open door,' can explain to the group just what that means. (Looks like you're up Kev to tell the group just what I'm talking about there.)"

I have to say, I am stumped. The only thing I can think to tell you about marriage in the LDS church is that they have temple marriage which remains in force "for time and all eternity," not just, "til death do us part." Or are you referring to plural marriage (no longer practiced in the LDS church, but practiced by some spinoff churches such as the FLDS church)?

Regards,
Kevin T.
 
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Unfortunately Zay, I may not be one of the cases you’re looking for. I am not polyamorous, nor had I ever considered the possibility until 2 friends recently approached my wife and me about a more intimate relationship. This happened after I survived my NDE and decided I needed to live my ‘bonus life’ to the fullest. So ????random chance, ?????confluence of events, ?????serendipity……I don’t know. It nudged me to consider all possibilities. I am trying to determine if I feel a fit within a swingers, FWB, or poly lifestyle (and kudos to all of you who’ve figured this out……a stable pattern that works for you……it takes a great deal of dedication & energy and frankly, I am a little fatigued by all the possibilities). My wife and I are still uncertain at this point if we will proceed with any open relationship. We want to make sure whatever we choose, we are being true to our authentic individual selves. And, for greater context, I never considered the possibility that I was bisexual (or probably more correctly pansexual) until I met my wife, never dated more than one person at a time and had 3 long term monogamous relationships with 2 separate FWBs between those, no threesomes. So always one at a time…..I am only considering the possibility of more now. Perhaps I am simply a slow learner!

I was not ‘flatlined’ at any time but my heart was under a great deal of stress and I had a very high heart rate (no anomalous rhythms were recorded by the paramedics). My cerebral cortex shut down however during the NDE and my body went into apneustic breathing (a type of brainstem breathing which happens when breathing becomes decoupled from the cerebrum and higher regulatory centres). Fortunately for me this probably lasted for only approximately 30 seconds. I couldn’t tell how long I’d been gone from my body, and for my partner, it felt like an eternity, but that is her best estimate. She was locked onto my eyes and knew when I ‘left my eyes’ and when I came back. The breathing pattern lasted about 45 seconds……I distinctly remember the first few extremely painful breaths……my chest felt like it would explode and then suddenly, I was behind my body and there was no pain.

Hi Zay,

Thanks for humoring me and taking a closer look at my mental exercise. I agree that something must constitute life in the first place, before it can have an afterlife. It sounds like you believe in reincarnation. Interesting thoughts about Earth being the only living planet.

Re: "What she said hit me core deep, and is core central to me personally as a spiritual poly, ringing off bells all over the place, especially about the door of her experience which only someone with an intimate tie to a LDS background in the concepts such as Covenant marriage and the words, 'Behold, I have set before you an open door,' can explain to the group just what that means. (Looks like you're up Kev to tell the group just what I'm talking about there.)"

I have to say, I am stumped. The only thing I can think to tell you about marriage in the LDS church is that they have temple marriage which remains in force "for time and all eternity," not just, "til death do us part." Or are you referring to plural marriage (no longer practiced in the LDS church, but practiced by some spinoff churches such as the FLDS church)?

Regards,
Kevin T.
I was referring to both, since both my spouse and I had a forever type mindset, and had a Covenant Marriage of our own to seal it in. You described it perfectly. Thank you. You also hit on the plural marriage thing, albeit I meant it from a historical stand point in Young's time when the LDS church went to war with the United States, in the time of the Danites, over plural marriages, not the end of the war and it's aftermath when the LDS church ceded the plural marriage issue for amnesty when Utah was brought into the Union. (I wasn't I referring the FLDS at all.) Both my spouse and I pored over all communities that we could find which were non-monogamously related. We eventually found the Oneida commune, which added the egalitarian element to what we were both looking for, for historical referencing to polyamory in the past. Incidentally, the Oneida commune was the inspiration behind the "Free Love" movement of the 60's and 70's and the age of communes in the Oregon/California region centered in the Haight-Ashbury area where the Kerista commune was centered. Actually, I also saw in some post that you had a Book of Mormon and a KJV, and since you had a KJV, you could most likely understand what the reference to the doors comment meant as well.

I'm glad you enjoyed my post<g>,
Thanks again.
Reguards,
Zay
 
I have to admit, I don't know what the reference to doors means. The closest thing I can think of is the image of Christ knocking on a door that has no knob on the outside. But I'm sure that's not an exclusively Mormon idea. Beyond that I can assume the door is the entrance to Heaven, although that is usually pictured as a pair of gates, or if you want to take a very Mormon view of things, it is a veil that can be parted (for someone that can give the right signs and tokens).
 
Unfortunately Zay, I may not be one of the cases you’re looking for. I am not polyamorous, nor had I ever considered the possibility until 2 friends recently approached my wife and me about a more intimate relationship. This happened after I survived my NDE and decided I needed to live my ‘bonus life’ to the fullest. So ????random chance, ?????confluence of events, ?????serendipity……I don’t know. It nudged me to consider all possibilities. I am trying to determine if I feel a fit within a swingers, FWB, or poly lifestyle (and kudos to all of you who’ve figured this out……a stable pattern that works for you……it takes a great deal of dedication & energy and frankly, I am a little fatigued by all the possibilities). My wife and I are still uncertain at this point if we will proceed with any open relationship. We want to make sure whatever we choose, we are being true to our authentic individual selves. And, for greater context, I never considered the possibility that I was bisexual (or probably more correctly pansexual) until I met my wife, never dated more than one person at a time and had 3 long term monogamous relationships with 2 separate FWBs between those, no threesomes. So always one at a time…..I am only considering the possibility of more now. Perhaps I am simply a slow learner!

I was not ‘flatlined’ at any time but my heart was under a great deal of stress and I had a very high heart rate (no anomalous rhythms were recorded by the paramedics). My cerebral cortex shut down however during the NDE and my body went into apneustic breathing (a type of brainstem breathing which happens when breathing becomes decoupled from the cerebrum and higher regulatory centres). Fortunately for me this probably lasted for only approximately 30 seconds. I couldn’t tell how long I’d been gone from my body, and for my partner, it felt like an eternity, but that is her best estimate. She was locked onto my eyes and knew when I ‘left my eyes’ and when I came back. The breathing pattern lasted about 45 seconds……I distinctly remember the first few extremely painful breaths……my chest felt like it would explode and then suddenly, I was behind my body and there was no pain.
Actually, you've accomplished much, much more for me personally than I even imagined and expected. If I had seen that in an NDE, especially if the door/window was open, I would not have returned. It would have been a call to go home for me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. \

My tertiary sister-wife is INFJ and I am INTJ, both of us need our alone time space not to get burnt out and to recharge, to get rid of that exhausted feeling. If you feel overwhelmed, my suggestion is take some time off, rest up and recharge. Why? When you're at a point of making difficult life changing choices, you'll be able to make much better decisions for yourself when you're rested up.

So if you feel emotionally off and/or unsettled, do a little self-diagnostic with the HALTS routine. Ask yourself am I .... H-ungry , A-ngry , L-onely , T-ired (or S-ick)....(I added S-ick myself ). If you're any one of those things, some or all, tend to those needs first if possible.

You can test your own self out when you're alone with your wife while in the heat of the moment. Imagine her with other people with you. ( No one else has to know this, this is your very own personal private poly litmus test. ) It's a very good self test to see if you're even compatible with the thought of it. Do it a couple of times and to see what you're comfortable with and also to bring down the thrill factor and dial it back. (Thrill isn't the objective of this litmus test, compersion is. ) If the feeling you get is a flood of what I call the "warm fuzzies" , you'll know it. And you'll know you're poly for sure, because you'll get a taste of what compersion is, the opposite of jealousy.

Not to say it isn't thrilling, it most certainly is. (I can remember the first time I felt it and how surreal it felt, and thinking to myself, " o my f..king god ". )

This doesn't mean you have to act on it. You're moving out of your comfort zone and that isn't easy. Take your time. Set some limits for yourself. And tell the others what those limits are since you will be in uncharted waters for a while emotionally about it. Expect it. If you go for it and feel crestfallen after, empty, like you've lost something, I certainly felt that too. I dunno, perhaps it's just a crash from the thrill/buzz factor part of it, and also only means you're in a transition state from one lifestyle to another.

There's more, but that's a start. Just remember, when it comes right down to it, the only person you have no other choice but to live with, is yourself. If you can't live with your own self, how can you expect yourself to be able to live with others. And on that note......

Once again, I want to thank you for your courage, openness, help and support for your responding to my post in such a way.

Thank you,
Love and blessings for your journey,
Regards,
Namaste,
Zay
 
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I have to admit, I don't know what the reference to doors means. The closest thing I can think of is the image of Christ knocking on a door that has no knob on the outside. But I'm sure that's not an exclusively Mormon idea. Beyond that I can assume the door is the entrance to Heaven, although that is usually pictured as a pair of gates, or if you want to take a very Mormon view of things, it is a veil that can be parted (for someone that can give the right signs and tokens).
There's more but I mainly refer to Rev 3 : 8. I know you're taking an atheist's path. I respect that and don't want interfere with it by taking you down a bunny hole that you rather not go. However I can flesh it out much more fully for you upon your request if you're open to it and really want to know. It would only be my interpretation of it anyway. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused because of this. But that one reference may settle it in your own mind.
Zay
 
Well Revelation has a lot of symbolism; I find it hard to unravel. From what I can gather, Christ is talking to John in Chapters Two and Three, but the meaning (correct interpretation) of the door mentioned in Rev 3:8 is not given. There is a little context given in 3:7, that is, "These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth." 3:8 follows up with, "Behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it." So whatever this door symbolizes, Christ alone has the power to open and close it, and for whatever reason, he chose to open it. And that is the extent of my understanding of that verse.
 
Actually, you've accomplished much, much more for me personally than I even imagined and expected. If I had seen that in an NDE, especially if the door/window was open, I would not have returned. It would have been a call to go home for me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. \

My tertiary sister-wife is INFJ and I am INTJ, both of us need our alone time space not to get burnt out and to recharge, to get rid of that exhausted feeling. If you feel overwhelmed, my suggestion is take some time off, rest up and recharge. Why? When you're at a point of making difficult life changing choices, you'll be able to make much better decisions for yourself when you're rested up. So if you feel emotionally off and/or unsettled do a little self-diagnostic with the HALTS routine. Ask yourself am I .... H-ungry , A-ngry , L-onely , T-ired (or S-ick)....(I added S-ick myself ). If you're any one of those things, some or all, tend to those needs first if possible. You can test your own self out when you're alone with your wife while in the heat of the moment. Imagine her with other people with you. ( No one else has to know this, this is your very own personal private poly litmus test. ) It's a very good self test to see if you're even compatible with the thought of it. Do it a couple of times and to see what you're comfortable with and also to bring down the thrill factor and dial it back. (Thrill isn't the objective of this litmus test, compersion is. ) If the feeling you get is a flood of what I call the "warm fuzzies" , you'll know it. And you'll know you're poly for sure, because you'll get a taste of what compersion is, the opposite of jealousy. Not to say it isn't thrilling, it most certainly is.) (I can remember the first time I felt it and how surreal it felt, and thinking to myself, " o my f..king god ". ) This doesn't mean you have to act on it. You're moving out of your comfort zone and that isn't easy. Take your time. Set some limits for yourself. And tell the others what those limits are since you will be in uncharted waters for a while emotionally about it. Expect it. If you go for it and feel crestfallen after, empty, like you've lost something, I certainly felt that too. I dunno, perhaps it's just a crash from the thrill/buzz factor part of it, and also only means you're in a transition state from one lifestyle to another. There's more, but that's a start. Just remember, when it comes right down to it, the only person you have no other choice but to live with, is yourself. If you can't live with your own self, how can you expect yourself to be able to live with others. And on that note......

Once again, I want to thank you for your courage, openness, help and support for your responding to my post in such a way.

I am so glad Zay that relaying my story was useful to you in some way. And thank you for your thoughts on approaching poly. I do really like your idea of trying to imagine a group scenario to see if I may be able to experience compersion. I have experienced freudenfreude before so maybe it’s not so far of a leap?????? I will definitely give it a try!

Love and blessings for your journey also.

Namaste,
Phoenix
 
Hi Zay,

Okay I'll bite. What is the meaning of the open door? Does the BoM shed light on the subject?

I notice Rev 3:7 mentions the "key of David." Perhaps the idea is that one must use that key to open and shut the door?

Regards,
Kevin T.
 
Well Revelation has a lot of symbolism; I find it hard to unravel. From what I can gather, Christ is talking to John in Chapters Two and Three, but the meaning (correct interpretation) of the door mentioned in Rev 3:8 is not given. There is a little context given in 3:7, that is, "These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth." 3:8 follows up with, "Behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it." So whatever this door symbolizes, Christ alone has the power to open and close it, and for whatever reason, he chose to open it. And that is the extent of my understanding of that verse.
Okay. In the lovingmore chatroom I soon found out there were 3 basic spiritual communities, with one commonality, we were all polyamorists. So imagine us as some sort of flora with 3 main separate branches and all them need care without damaging their faith, whatever path they choose to take. Hmmm.

So how do I show an atheist something that at least 2 others in this chat regard anything from scripture as being garbage and can't be trusted, (and that's okay with me, since I answer only for myself and only if I want to), when my intent is to serve all 3 branches? Basically the 1. Christian type believers, 2. those of other faiths, and 3. those who don't believe in any such thing at all, or really don't know types, all at the same time, when a lot of my answers to these questions that crop up start by crossing over spiritual boundaries interrupting their spiritual growth along each of these 3 separate pathways forward, when the answers becomes long and involved to provide?

True, there is a lot of symbolism, true, I've seen a lot of interpretations, but I see this from a polyamorist's point of view, since I'm not a churchianty type Christian, and to me no one is lost. So take everything I say with a grain of salt and I'll try to make it short. It can be viewed as private opinion, yet seen through a polyamorist lens, and that is different.

The Trinity is a concept that's questionable to me. I see the Son, (Yeshua/Jesus), as our creator, while the Father is not, but is the source of my source. I see myself as an ambassador of a future kingdom called Beulahland, the first polyamorist state. Yeshua is my brother-mate, as a polyamorist who is both married and faithful to many at once.

Churchianity and the monogamous world and the powers that be would call polyamory a form of adultery and blasphemy, and therefore evil. But there are lots of examples of Bible protagonists who are non-monogamous. Yeah, but those non-monogamists are people, humans beings, and therefore fallible, right? So consider this as a defense against the dark arts class for any polyamorist, if some Churchianty blowhard inflects upon you as being involved in some form of evil and/or comes at you because of your polyamory, even if you are an atheist or an agnostic, or any faith really.

John is on Patmos and is given 7 messages to deliver to 7 churches in Asia Minor, that many regard as the 7 church ages today. Others see the message to the Church of Philadelphia specifically in reference to Eliakim circa 500's BC, the steward of the house of the king, Hezekiah, descendent of David. His job was the keeper of the keys of the household that could open or close any door in the house. He also was one of the two envoys sent to meet with the envoy of the king of Assyria.

Also, the church is regarded as the Bride of Christ, composed of many members, both male and female. Yet John had 7 messages, regarded as 7 love letters to his 7 brides, with the love letter to Philadelphia being the only one that is given an open door that no one can shut.

Now I'm a chess player, playing 3 boards across and 5 levels up. Believe me, I can play this kind of game. I've played multi-level chess before, and know how to play it, (and there is a checkmate move to this on the 4th and 5 levels on any of the 3 boards, with the most auspicious time to play it being before the throne of God.<g> And anyone that is (hmmm, how shall I say this...) that insane enough to assault me there, is in for a very big surprise, since I play to win. <g>)

In the meantime, your play is this: "Jesus is without sin, correct?" They have no reply except to say "yes", since their case is based on him being a sinless sacrifice. Then you block their advance with "Why then is Jesus seen sending 7 love letters to 7 brides?" Then they'll usually reply with, "Why, that's only an analogy." Your ending block is, "I don't know about you, but I think it's awful strange that the Bible would cast Jesus as an adulterer, even in an analogy." (You've now taken his two edge sword, and used it against him. Spiritual aikido. Ya gotta love it!) I figure that's a better move than hitting the f**ker in the face with a piece of 2 by 4, and you going jail because of it... but probably less satisfying, I must admit.<g>

Getting back to the NDE and Phoenix's post. I resonate with the Church of Philadelphia best, the church of brotherly love in many ways. David was probably the best example of a polyamorist in scripture, loving his brother-in-law Jonathan, whose love was more than his 80 queens, 60 concubines, and lady friends without number. As an ordinary guy with little power and not denying his name, the love letter suggests to me I'll have 1000 years of job security (gotta love that), intimately at his temple in Adonaisham (anglicized), our capital city. So that's just a taste of what I meant with Phoenix's NDE when I said it "hit me to my core."

Have a good weekend. I'll be back after Sabbath.
Reguards,
Zay
 
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Hmmmm, interesting. Jesus as a polyamorist. But does the Bible have any examples of a woman having more than one man?
 

Hmmmm, interesting. Jesus as a polyamorist. But does the Bible have any examples of a woman having more than one man?
Only if they were a prostitute. :)
 
Heh, or an otherwise adulterous woman.
 
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Hmmmm, interesting. Jesus as a polyamorist. But does the Bible have any examples of a woman having more than one man?
That's always the Christian poly practitioner's stumbling block. It's the patriarchy, red in tooth and claw. Women are chattel and are kept under lock and key, and if they break out, they and their children, if any, are to be exiled or better yet, murdered.

The Hebrew Testament, the canonical Christian Testament, and all the further writings, the Talmud, the Church "fathers," etc., are all rampantly misogynistic. It's interesting how this corpus lays out, boldly and unashamedly, a great history of the violent subjugation of women and how men ripped from women all power and personal status.
 
Zay, how do you feel about the misogynistic patriarchy in scripture?
 
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