Polyamory as a modality for spiritual growth

Re:
"My experience is that most people who ascribe to any of the Abrahamic religions tend to believe that God is an omnipotent being who created and rules the cosmos and is the one and only source of moral authority. But what I have noticed is that when people are directed to question this definition, they have a difficult time with it because when it's looked at close enough it all starts to crumble very quickly."

Is the church member aware of this crumbling? What does the crumbling look like? I don't mean to heckle, I'm just curious. I know that Mormons have an extensive description of their God. It covers many bases.

I don't suppose my atheist beliefs have been thoroughly questioned, given that I'm pretty comfortable with them. Well, I'm not comfortable with what I believe about death, but since I can't do much about that, I try not to think about it too much.
 
Hi kdt,

Is the church member aware of this crumbling? What does the crumbling look like? I don't mean to heckle, I'm just curious. I know that Mormons have an extensive description of their God. It covers many bases.

Yes, when the questioning is happening the questioner is aware (to some degree at a minimum) that the narrative is crumbling under the scrutiny. In general, the person will look very scared (if they were not prepared for it, like for instance when they come to my door to try and convert me... this, I realize, is entirely assholish of myself and I try not to do it anymore) or very excited (if they understood what they were getting into when beginning the process). Essentially this is a form of dialectic conversation with a focused agenda; to eradicate misperception and have a present moment experience of "Truth."

I don't suppose my atheist beliefs have been thoroughly questioned, given that I'm pretty comfortable with them. Well, I'm not comfortable with what I believe about death, but since I can't do much about that, I try not to think about it too much.

We all have areas that we leave unquestioned, at least for a while, because it either hasn't come up yet, we are unaware of our unconscious beliefs, or we don't want to. Eventually though, if freedom/liberation/enlightenment is what you *really* want, all beliefs have to be questioned. In Buddhism they call this stage in the awakening process "the dark night of the soul."

Love,
Carson
 
You must be a skillful questioner if you are able to make Mormon missionaries squirm. :)
 
You must be a skillful questioner if you are able to make Mormon missionaries squirm. :)

Hahaha, Mormons are easy to make squirm. It's my aghori friends that I find hard to push to uncomfortability. :p

Love,
Carson
 
Never heard of the Aghori before. Interesting. Do they really eat the flesh of corpses?
 
Never heard of the Aghori before. Interesting. Do they really eat the flesh of corpses?

Yes. Essentially, aghoris believe that nothing is sacred and that all polarities are illusion or the result of misperception. So they use practices like eating corpses, using hallucinogens, drinking urine etc to help them experience the truth of "non-dual consciousness" and transcend false discrimination which has us living from a state of separation.

Love,
Carson
 
Sounds like they have a large comfort zone. :)
 
Aphrodite Gone Awry is a new convert to fundamentalist, evangelical Christianity. It seems she was pagan in the past and is now filled with fervor and fire for Jesus and his Father.

I have no trouble making door to door Jehovah's Witnesses very uncomfortable. I am pretty up on my Christian theology.

However, my younger daughter has Borderline Personality Disorder, and although she was raised with gentleness and respect, by open minded, committed, caring atheist/pagan parents, she was unable, despite therapy, rehab, sober homes and AA, to find peace and a release from drug and alcohol addiction until she was "saved" in a praise-type church environment. Far be it from me to dissuade her! She is now drug-free, has an income, got her license back, and a car, and married, and has a kid she is doing a pretty good job raising. Her community seems to be a safe place for a lot of people in recovery.

She has black and white thinking, always has, never grew out of it. So, this theology works for her. She, like AGA, thinks it works for everyone. But of course, it does NOT work for her old mom and dad! lol. We were both raised in Christianity, and left it as soon as we had the choice, and feel comfortable in a different kind of spirituality altogether.
 
Re:
"AphroditeGoneAwry is a new convert to fundamentalist, evangelical Christianity. It seems she was pagan in the past and is now filled with fervor and fire for Jesus and his Father."

LOLOL, so it would seem.

Re:
"She has black and white thinking, always has, never grew out of it. So, this theology works for her. She, like AGA, thinks it works for everyone."

That's my only complaint about zealous Christians, they won't live and let live.
 
oneness

Hi Carson et al.

Recently when I was energy working* with one of my friends^ I had a profound, rather initiatory, experience that no matter what words I type, I can't quite convey the nuance. It wasn't about sexual gratification, more about identification of the archetypal male. Adam's [energetic] fingerprint.

So for me, right now it isn't about identifying relationship issues within my marriage, but about experiencing love and unity - emotional, physical and now metaphysical - in and out of my marriage. I would unhesitatingly say that there is a spiritual aspect, and I currently believe that bringing this further to the fore is in line with my personal spiritual evolutionary path.

Man, I sound like a wanker, but as has been pointed out, words are symbols of symbols. Sometimes I use them inadequately.



* the type of energy working that in this instance lead to a type of orgasm

^ my poly lifestyle is one of multiple FWB, each friendship grounded in romantic love.


Evie
 
Hi Evie and thanks for chiming in! You don't sound like a wanker at all. ;)

Recently when I was energy working* with one of my friends^ I had a profound, rather initiatory, experience that no matter what words I type, I can't quite convey the nuance. It wasn't about sexual gratification, more about identification of the archetypal male. Adam's [energetic] fingerprint.

Sounds like an awesome experience! I'm curious to know more, but I realize that, as you mention, often the most profound and revelatory of experiences can be extremely difficult to properly communicate about. Perhaps I can just ask what the modality is that you are using for energy stimulation/manipulation/direction? Tantra? Reiki? Taoism? Internal alchemy? Kundalini yoga? So many to choose from. ;)

So for me, right now it isn't about identifying relationship issues within my marriage, but about experiencing love and unity - emotional, physical and now metaphysical - in and out of my marriage. I would unhesitatingly say that there is a spiritual aspect, and I currently believe that bringing this further to the fore is in line with my personal spiritual evolutionary path.

It never ceases to amaze me just how different and unique we (and our journeys) all are, yet how similar we all are in so many ways as well. Sounds like you are exactly where you need to be, right now. :)

Love,
Carson
 
Hi Carson

I haven't figured out how to snip in a quote properly yet with attribution, sorry...

Perhaps I can just ask what the modality is that you are using for energy stimulation/manipulation/direction? Tantra? Reiki? Taoism? Internal alchemy? Kundalini yoga? So many to choose from.

I'm actually running off pure instinct right now. In saying that, I don't think one can avoid being aware of the notion of chakra centres these days, but in my own experience I perceive different energies in each centre than the literature describes. I feel a bit cheeky going against the grain, so I haven't discussed it in public. I just keep meditating on it to try and develop my understanding.

Evie
 
Hi Evie,

I haven't figured out how to snip in a quote properly yet with attribution, sorry...

Doesn't bother me in the slightest! :) What I do is hit the "quote" button on the bottom right of the post I want to reply to... that works for me.

I'm actually running off pure instinct right now.

I've seen this approach work both incredibly well and incredibly terribly... sometimes in the same person just at different points in their journey. Personally I am thankful for the majority of the pointers I was given along the way as I know I would have spun my tires so-to-speak on some of the more esoteric experiences when really they were just "beautiful scenery" along the way.

saying that, I don't think one can avoid being aware of the notion of chakra centres these days, but in my own experience I perceive different energies in each centre than the literature describes. I feel a bit cheeky going against the grain, so I haven't discussed it in public. I just keep meditating on it to try and develop my understanding.

That's cool by me! I'm similar to you, it seems, in that I often go against the grain of long-standing traditions, but personally I'm not afraid to ruffle a few feathers in an effort to come to both a deeper understanding of myself and to push others to look closer at what they believe and why. I was one of four people in the world certified to teach a specific style of yoga and was quite well known for it in some circles, but when I started to openly use polyamory as a way to confront deep emotional conditioning I was chastised quite severely. This, in combination with their chastisement of my choice to use psychedelics as a part of my path was enough to have me leave my position in the organization. So yeah, I get the desire to not discuss too much in public. :)

Love,
Carson
 
My experience is that most people who ascribe to any of the Abrahamic religions (in particular, although there are other religions who embrace a dogmatically monotheistic approach as well) tend to believe that God is an omnipotent being who created and rules the cosmos and is the one and only source of moral authority. But what I have noticed is that when people are directed to question this definition, they have a difficult time with it because when it's looked at close enough it all starts to crumble very quickly.

And allowing that it MIGHT crumble very quickly tends to be defended against with great vigor. So the very moment one seriously allows the question to be sincerely open, the crumbling tends to begin -- not before.

But isn't this generally true of all of the beliefs we have about ourselves and "the world"? We identify with these beliefs so much that we fear it is we ourselves who will "crumble" if we allow these to be held sincerely open to questioning. Are we not -- most of us, generally -- putting a lot of energy into trying to "hold ourselves together" in just such a way in which we confuse our true nature with our belief structure or system?

In my experience, the most profound spiritual insights and experiences do not lead to yet more beliefs; rather, they tend to liberate us from rigid adherence to belief altogether, especially those beliefs which transform the fundamental spacious openness in ourselves and the world into a tight enclosure which we identify with.

The dominant culture of most who are likely reading here says "Knowledge is power," and presumes the corollary "Not knowing is powerlessness" is equally true -- and in a very simple way. If we examine the latter assumption carefully we are likely to discover that our buying into it was buying into a terribly mistaken notion.

Not knowing is liberating and empowering, at least in potential -- at least as much as knowing may be. These two need one another as the inbreath needs the outbreath, as up needs down, as day needs night.... To reject one is to reject the other.
 
I can deny deny deny for years, but eventually life will put me in a situation where I can't hide from myself any longer and I am forced to look fully into the mirror and learn to accept that I am not perfect and still have lots of work to do.

Perhaps the greatest "spiritual growth" hurdle most us must leap, eventually, is the one which allows us to (paradoxically?) accept all of ourselves, just as we are. Such acceptance does not mean that we no longer grow, learn, heal.... Or that we no longer want to grow, learn, heal... If anything, such growth and healing accelerates with such self acceptance -- or so the best teachers I know of seek to share with us. (And my deeper intuition resonates with that.)

My challenge, lately, is that I've allowed myself recently to be partially duped by the misperception of the nature of my motivation -- and even "heart". I even had this self-appointed guru recently declare to me and some of my friends that ...(about me) "His heart is not open". And I was weary at the time of having stuff projected onto me, and a little off-balance, so I unconsciously accepted this invitation to misperceive the nature of my own heart. That is, I unwittingly bought into the absurd notion that ANY person's heart can be said to be "not open". But if we all look and feel very deeply, carefully, we'll see that the essential nature of every heart -- of heart generally -- is openness. So this man was not seeing my heart at all -- and his perception can only be understood as a distortion and projection.

I learned ... or began to learn..., a lot from this experience. I am learning that there are two valid levels to things ... which have to be understood in their togetherness not to be entirely mistaken. The true heart is always free and open. That's its nature. But when we don't deeply realize this, we can affect our access to this awareness -- but doing so is akin to having the sun (or stars) obscured by clouds. The clouds merely temporarily obscure the sun or stars -- they do not alter the nature of either.

I am learning that whenever I fail see and know the non-obscured nature of the heart (usually by feeling unworthy of love, or distanced from it), I'm pretty much caught in the same projective tendencies my "guru' friend misperceived me through. It becomes possible for me to imagine a heart as something incomplete, deficient, broken, "closed".

To refuse the projection of my "guru friend" -- but an acquaintance, really --, it is necessary for me to forgive him along with those in the room who accepted his invitation for us all to see my heart as "closed". Clearly, then, it is especially crucial for me to forgive myself for being duped, momentarily, but the same projection. And the only way to do that is to see (and be) the heart as it is -- open, fresh, loving, innocent, tender forgiving, kind... and wise.

This is the gift of love which we can give to ourselves and one another.:) ... a parting of the obscuring clouds. Nothing more or less.

_______________

Edit:

Another thing I'm learning is that it is all-too-common to think (and feel) that our transcendent true human essence (our true heart) is radically separate from our conditioned lives and selves -- that the personal and the transpersonal are flung wildy far apart. In reality, our Perfect Freedom can only be found where we live, in our ordinary everyday lives. It does not exist elsewhere. And wishing it to is a flagrant abandonment of our true, essential nature (which is ultimately not possible, since it can only be obscured by clouds at most).

It becomes clear though all of this that the kindest thing we can do -- and the most honest and true -- is to see everyone as Brilliantly Utterly Gloriously Heartful and Free.
To offer this Mirror of Love.
 
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Oddly enough, my daughter has indicated her husband had some kind of inner "come to Jesus" moment, some flash of insight or whatever? Which HAS led to "belief" and "faith" on both their parts. I think this is common with those with a Christian bent.

For myself, gnosis is enough. Faith, belief, and to an extent, hope, have no value for me.
 
...I learned ... or began to learn..., a lot from this experience. I am learning that there are two valid levels to things ... which have to be understood in their togetherness not to be entirely mistaken. The true heart is always free and open. That's its nature. But when we don't deeply realize this, we can affect our access to this awareness -- but doing so is akin to having the sun (or stars) obscured by clouds. The clouds merely temporarily obscure the sun or stars -- they do not alter the nature of either.

This perspective makes all the difference, doesn't it? When you know this about people, you can access the most pleasing aspects of them and then the world is your oyster. Your guru/friend/acquaintance perfectly delivered this clarifying moment for you.
 
For myself, gnosis is enough. Faith, belief, and to an extent, hope, have no value for me.

Words can be such blunt instruments.

Take the word "faith" for example. Most of us associate the word "faith" with unquestioning, blind "faith". I think such "faith" is rightly rejected as a form of fool's gold. But there is another use for the word faith, and such alternate faith is that which allows us to put the fool's gold down, knowing that it is not genuine.

The book, Faith: Trusting Your Own Deepest Experience, by Sharon Salzberg, helped me to see "faith" in a whole new light. I highly recommend that book.
 
This perspective makes all the difference, doesn't it? When you know this about people, you can access the most pleasing aspects of them and then the world is your oyster. Your guru/friend/acquaintance perfectly delivered this clarifying moment for you.

Yes, it makes all the difference. And yes, he did offer me a kind of gift, though it looked and smelled like a turd a the moment of its offering.

Such gifts as these take a while to fully unpack, and I feel I've only just begun. Like onions, such insights (as began to unfold afterward) seem to have many layers. Or maybe it's like Chinese boxes?

That aspect or part of "me" which is awake, which is all-loving, all-kindness..., all-freedom... is not obscured by "clouds" from its own side, and can't really be knocked out of center, broken-hearted..., etc. It has never had lack or deficiency, has never been or felt unloved or unlovable.... But "I" am often caught up in feelings of lack, deficiency, unlovingness..., even feelings and thoughts of undeservingness....

These seem to be two. But the Deeper Intuition insists they are not -- and that to imagine them as such is to get it importantly wrong. There is no wall or chasm between them. The personal and transpersonal are an integrity -- and there is no war between them.

More deeply knowing and feeling -- realizing -- all of this unfolds in time, as growth and healing. Meanwhile, some "part" of us is always transcendent of time and process -- but ... form is formlessness; and formlessness is form. One cannot be without the other. It's fundamentally mysterious. And that's okay.:)
 
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