Primary/Secondary: Merged Threads/General Discussion/Debate

catspaw00tng said:
I've been reading up on secondary relationships, and it's pretty depressing stuff. If I'm interpreting it correctly, I should just be happy with whatever I can get, and should be grateful that the primary couple is letting me in at all. I'll admit that most of my ideas on poly come from Lazarus Long, so they're pretty idealized, but do all secondary relationships have to be shallow and, well, less? What is reasonable?
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Welcome to the Forum Cat.

First of all the notions above strike me a load of codswallop. I'm unfamiliar with Lazarus Long, and I've never read Heinlein's works...however while SciFi is a vehicle to explore a lot of what-if's, it is a work of fiction. In order to explore alternate forms of sexuality, SciFi provides the opportunity to completely change the rules of society...so any poly context within those books will not necessarily resemble anything in the real world, depending on how much the rules have been changed.

The forum here has some great threads on secondary dynamics, negotiation, etc. Check out Master Thread - links to other threads worth reading or do a search for secondary and it'll open up a wealth of information for you.

At the end of the day you are a person, just like them...and deserve to be treated with love, integrity and respect, just like them. Everything else is negotiable.
 
Hi, Cat. Welcome to the forum.

I totally agree with what Derby, Ari and II have posted.

One other thing I want to point out:
catspaw00tng said:
When the relationship first started, my SO explained that there was no such thing as "primary" and "secondary," but last week explained that actually there is, and I'm the secondary.
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What? How did the arrangement go from "no such thing" to "you are secondary" without your knowledge, consent and input? Either something happened in your SO's other/primary relationship, or you have been lied to. Either way, you are completely within your rights to insist on knowing WTF happened.
 
Hmmm. My response would be along the lines of "Homey don't play them games," followed by a question as to what in hell is going on. That switcheroo from "no such thing as primary/secondary" to "you're secondary" would have me halfway out the door. There'd better be a damned good explanation forthcoming to keep me from walking on then and there.

So, I'll recommend skipping offering up any expectations on your part. Ask what your SO means by "secondary," and decide if that's even close to being acceptable. If it's not even close, walk on.

Enabling that sort of dysfunctional game in any fashion is nothing I can condone or recommend. People stop playing those stupid games when those games quit working, and they quit working when others stop enabling the bad behavior.
 
The others have echoed my thoughts entirely. I just wanted to add one thing, though. I would suggest ignoring the labels altogether, in order to focus on what YOU want out of this. Everything that you have listed sounds reasonable and valid.

I think that perhaps there was a bit of fear on their part, in some way, and the "secondary" thing came up as a result. Just be you and they will see that there is nothing to be afraid of (I hope).

Sometimes when stuff comes down to it, there is a weird need for some people to create rules out of thin air in order to do what they think is appropriate procedure. If it is useful for them to go through this, then so be it. I would suggest making light of it in your own head and take the opportunity to voice what you need from them. I think it was a great question on their part, just not encased with the best language/communication/approach to ask it.
 
I can so relate to this issue. I was told over and over I wasn't to be in a "secondary" role with my couple. I said I never wanted to be in a secondary position.

They were a couple. Then he and I became a couple. (There was no plan for her and me to be involved as a couple. I'm hetero, he's hetero, she's bi.) She and I enjoy one another's company and get along fine. I even moved closer to them, partially to make the development of a relationship easier. (We had lived 7 hours apart.)

Then out of the blue, 7 months later, I was told that I "seem to want to be on a equal basis with their relationship" and, "these things take time..." and I couldn't expect my wants and needs to have the priority that theirs do. WTF?? This hurt like heck and made me question how much they'd really put into figuring out the practical aspects of poly living, beyond being able to love more than one person. It sounds good on paper, but I don't see them committing to working out the details of some potentially complicated situations. If he wants a "secondary," so be it. But damn, I wish he'd figured this out before. :(

So, Cat, I don't have any answers for you, but I do empathize, if that's any help.
 
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I wonder how often this happens. The couple is trying to play nice, not use prescriptive terms like secondary and primary in order to have things feel even. However in the end, time, energy, life and the relationship make it VERY primary.

Anyone involved with me will be a secondary. Not necessarily in love, but absolutely in life. I have been with my wife 10 years, gone through tonnes of shit, lived with her most of those. It's not possible for someone to come in and live that role with me. It would take time and energy.

I think a lot of people in poly fool themselves into the mantras of non-prescriptive roles in relationships. But most are lying to themselves and to their lovers. I am not saying this happens with everyone. Some people can live the dream. But I would love know how many really can't and don't. And the mantra is there to help them get hooked up.
 
catspaw00tng said:
but do all secondary relationships have to be shallow and, well, less? What is reasonable?
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Absolutely not.

Have you read the "secondary's rights" article? I can't for the life of me remember where it originates, but I know it's on a thread on here that Sage started, in the general forum. If you do a search for threads started by "Sage" you can probably find it pretty quick. Also it might originate from www.xeromag.com. Even if it doesn't, I imagine you'll find more useful info on there.

At any rate, you can be a secondary and have a wonderfully deep and meaningful relationship. You can be a primary and have a shitty relationship. It's all about identifying what you need from the relationship and then communicating it and ensuring that it can be had in that relationship.

GG, my bf, would be seen as my "secondary" by most people's standards. But he lives with my husband and me, and has for 8 years. We see each other every day. He has a say in decisions that impact the family and our relationships.

It just depends on the situation.
 
Hi,

Yes, the article on secondary's rights is on the xeromag site that LR has included the link for. It was also copied into a thread here on mono rights that I probably started. I've also explored the topic in this week's post on my blog.

I've recently become friendly with a couple of women in non-primary relationships. Excuse the label, but how else can I describe a relationship someone has with someone else who is married with children?

Polyamory done well can be a beautiful and enriching experience. Done badly, it can be cruel. And one of the cruelest examples, I think, is the "dispensable" non-primary. Any relationship can end, but to have one pulled away through no fault of your own, with no say in the matter, is definitely unreasonable and this seems to happen regularly. It reminds me of people who get tired of pets after the novelty's worn off and take them to animal shelters.
 
sage said:
Polyamory done well can be a beautiful and enriching experience. Done badly, it can be cruel and one of the cruelest examples I think is the "dispensable" non-primary. Any relationship can end, but to have one pulled away through no fault of your own, with no say in the matter, is definitely unreasonable, and this seems to happen regularly. It reminds me of people who get tired of pets after the novelty's worn off and take them to animal shelters.
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Something to think about. Very well put!
 
My husband is definitely "primary" (other than myself of course) because we share a home, bills, errands, that kind of thing, plus we are married on paper so we share insurance and other benefits of being married. He is also the person I would call if my car broke down (after calling AAA), or the one I would ask to pick up medicine if I were sick (and vice-versa). He is my legal "next-of-kin" and that is what makes him "primary". He is also my best friend of the human species, which has very little to do with being "primary" in the context of "poly" relationships.

However, my (boy)friend is not primary, secondary, or anything like that. He is someone I am great buddies with and madly in love with, but all I want to do is know that he is out there somewhere and if we can spend more time together, that is a huge plus. Our relationship is totally "open" and we don't expect to check with one another if we decide to go out with or have sex with someone else.

If I meet or go on a date with someone new, I tell my husband out of respect for our relationship dynamic (for example, so he wouldn't worry or wonder where I was), but I would only tell my friend as a matter of small-talk or if it were relevant to a conversation topic. Of course, husband and I don't date "as a couple" so we don't have to concern ourselves with whether "the third" is "equal" or not.
 
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Ariakas said:
I wonder how often this happens. The couple is trying to play nice and not use prescriptive terms like secondary and primary in order to have things feel even. However in the end, time, energy, life and the relationship make it VERY primary.

Anyone involved with me will be a secondary, not necessarily in love, but absolutely in life.
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I seriously doubt that you're telling new partners that there's no such thing as primary/secondary and then tossing them for a loop later with an announcement that they are, indeed, secondary. I have no objection to the description of a spouse/long-time cohabiting partner as a primary (my wife is my primary in that fashion). I object to the game playing.
 
For me (being the oddball) it's not so simple as Ari's example of his life. GG and I've had a deep relationship for 18 years. Maca and I've been together 13. I married Maca. By the time spent, one would say GG was primary. By the marriage one would say Maca was primary.

I have a daughter. Maca has a son. We have a son. Maca and I have a daughter who is biologically GG's, so I have NO idea how one would divvy up THAT to decide who is my primary.

Both of them work full time. They both put all of their income into the household expenses. I stay at home full time, so there's no divvying up primaries there, either.
 
LovingRadiance said:
For me (being the oddball) it's not so simple as Ari's example of his life.
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Keeping in mind I accept time can change things, in fact, I could see that happening under the right circumstances. I just have to meet the person who would enjoy being in my life in that way.

For me its like dating, I figure.

I date someone
We become gf/bf
We become serious, in a relationship
We get engaged
We get married

Obviously, that doesn't work in the reality of poly, but that's my thinking. Someone just doesn't walk into my life and get married. haha

If I had been dating/in a relationship/married to two people over the long haul, I am sure primary/secondary would lose any real value in use.
 
Absolutely, Ari! It took both guys time to earn a place in my life. It may be easy to get into my heart, but to get into my "inner life," you gotta earn it.
 
I found this on http://tacit.livejournal.com/ in the January 26th, 2011 post. I think it makes the point quite clearly.

Polyamorous Secondary Relationship Card
Thank you for your interest in allowing me to join your relationship as a secondary. To help me understand your needs, goals, and intentions, and best evaluate your offer, please fill out this card.

As a “secondary” partner, I may expect that (check all that apply):
I will be dumped if I become inconvenient
I will be dumped if I ask to be treated with the same respect as your other partner
I will be dumped if I become pregnant
I will be dumped if I say the word “love” in a romantic context
I will be dumped if another partner requests it, regardless of the reason
I will be dumped if I am seen as a threat by anyone else
I will not be invited to family vacations or holiday events
I will be dumped if I get a boyfriend or girlfriend of my own
I will be required to keep the relationship secret from your family, friends, or others
Other (specify): ____________________________________________________________
Concept: Edward Martin
Implementation: Franklin Veaux
 
Here I am, sticking my nose in. I tried to keep my mouth shut, but that card gets my back up. It makes it sound like anyone who uses the word "secondary" is out to hurt someone. Yes, I'm a secondary. Yes, I have secondaries. Do I intend to hurt them? No. Do they intend to hurt me? I don't think so, but if I did, I wouldn't stick around. But do I know for a fact that if a situation came up where they had to choose between me and their primary relationship, they would choose the primary? Of course! I absolutely don't think they would intend to hurt me, but there are going to be situations where the family comes first. I trust that they are going to commit themselves to finding solutions that don't hurt me, if at all possible.

Let's face it, there is no real security in any relationship. I've had primary/monogamous relationships yanked out from under me suddenly, for no apparent reason. The real thing you need to look for in a relationship is trust. Can you trust your partner and metamour to be mature, considerate, and thoughtful of your feelings?
 
Lemondrop, I happen to agree that the truth of being a secondary doesn't have to mean all of those things. However, it is something for those of us who are "primary" to consider when we are looking at what is "fair" and "reasonable" for us to "dictate" in regards to our SO's secondary.

What I mean is this-- Maca's girlfriend would functionally be secondary. But does that mean she shouldn't be treated with the respect and love and care that I am? Of course not. As a person, she deserves those things, and therefore, I need to ensure that my limitations don't make it impossible for her to have them within the dynamic of their relationship, even if it is "secondary" to ours.

I'm glad someone opted to speak out and say that it doesn't have to be that way. I hope the conversation continues. I think it's good for all of us to consider from multiple perspectives.
 
I waffled over apologizing. I'm sorry if I came off too mean. I've been surrounded by too many "One True Wayists" lately, and I think I'm starting to feel a little prickly.

Bottom line, I guess, is to be as kind as you are able to be.
 
Don't apologize, m'dear! I was smiling because you replied in the first place! I know it's difficult for you to disagree in the first place. You did a kick-butt job of making a good point. :)
 
Hey Lemondrop, I was going to say pretty much the same thing. I've just been dealing with work stuff tonight and hadn't gotten around to it yet. Secondary=/=Disposable in my world. I don't think I'd be ok with being "secondary" to someone who gave me the impression that I was disposable either.
 
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