primary status rejected

Okay, while I've basically caught up, I still haven't read the bit about the accident. Sometimes it's necessary to skim, otherwise, a boy has no life.

The picture I'm getting is that she is in in NRE, and at the moment, he's everything to her. That happens, and it's not hers or anyone else's fault. Also it seems that she's probably not her own primary. Yet. What that means, simply put, is that she's got love flowing with herself (if she's her own primary). She's perhaps wanting and needing that from others, as if it were not an inside job.

If we're lucky, at some point, we realize it's all an inside job. We get about as much as we give. But if we feel empty (a hole), it's difficult, at best, to imagine anything that isn't a Life-Raft Situation, in which we're needing to be rescued by a knight or princess in shining armor. The illusion is always brief, however convincing at the moment.

My hope and wish for all of us is that we Wake Up from the Story and its feelingtones. That's why the book Radical Acceptance touched my heartstrings as it did. See: thread on Spirituality and Polyamory, Radical Acceptance, which is about loving oneself as primary. Hugs!
 
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Mono, now you know why I was out buying 1000 Advils. I still think you may have needed them more than I did that day.

SNeacail, I went to my lawyer first. You are correct. That hurdle has been overcome. I just didn't want get into the legal minutiae here.

River, thanks for the reply. As to insight, it doesn't matter how many people see problem or its possible fix. If the person who has said problem doesn't see it, or refuses to acknowledge it, it makes things a lot more interesting. To be honest, I think this is like the perfect storm. Parent modeling, trauma from multiple parents and divorces, etc., brain chemistry was treated for depression, parents both alcoholics. Again, chemistry. A mid-life crisis, which include hormonal changes. Again, back to chemistry. I wouldn't be surprised if it were a combination of all those listed, and 5 more factors uncovered during the process.

I knew what was up two days before the trip, not from anything being said directly, but we exchanged a glance in which she had to look away. She knew I knew what her intentions were. I could have said I wanted her to go, or that I thought family time was important. I didn't. I thought, "If you don't want to be with us, I don't want you with us," for all the natural reasons.

We had a similar argument back in October. She planned a spring break vacation to Florida for the three of us. That's never happened before. It was always the entire family, and sometimes extended family. A month earlier, she was talking about all the vacation days she needed to use. My HUGE problem was selling it to the kids first. When I blew up, she said she was just trying to do something nice, and that she was going to pay for the $3500 dollar condo and airfare. My end was food and renting a car. What a nice gesture on her part. :rolleyes:

Wants and needs all seem to blend at some point.
 
River, man, do I get the skim part. The problem I have is then remembering everyone's stories.

Yeah, I get the NRE thing. Lots of time and energy gets spent on techniques to overcome jealousy. However, no Jedi mind tricks to deal with NRE. Two things on opposite sides of the spectrum.
 
I agree, at this point, that y'all should seek professional counseling help. Oftentimes, such folks can help sort it all out. Wants, needs, or otherwise. But choose the counselor carefully.

Dingedheart, I wish you peace, joy and healing.
 
What, SNeacail? You're not perfect in EVERY way? Shame on you! ;)
 
River, NRE being no one's fault, I think I have to disagree. We all make choices. I never get a pass on bad or thoughtless decisions, no matter what.

As for the therapy suggestion, a few years ago, we went as a couple, and also individually. We would go one week as couple, the next separately, then as couple the following week. We did this for about 5 months, at which time it was concluded that the problem was in my wife's court.

The therapist told me that she was happy to see me, and if I needed to come to process/vent, we could continue, but the work on my end was completed. I have to say I learned a lot in the entire process, even though it was not something I was excited to do.

My wife continued for another few months. It went from once a week, to once every two weeks, to less... I think the therapist dropped her because of last-minute cancellations and things of that nature. That's speculation on my part, but when I suggested she might want to go back if she needed to talk to someone outside the mess, she implied she couldn't go back to her.

SNeacail, what is the story behind your username? I never remember it correctly, and always have to go back and check. I need something to get it to stick.

You mentioned that you've also felt that spending time with husband was out of obligation, not true desire. A foreign concept to me. Did your husband pick up on that? Do you feel your husband does that to you? If so, are you okay with that?

Just after the primary-status discussion, my wife was trying to initiate a sexual encounter, to which I responded, "Not really in the mood, but if you need some type of release, I'm more than happy to help with that." Guess what happened? Not interested after that. She seemed a little insulted. I could be wrong, though. So hard to tell these days.

After my run-in with gravity and packed snow, she seems much more affectionate. More hugs, kisses on the cheek, and the like. I get the intention, but this is could be a mixed message for a guy with broken ribs. I've told her that I don't need this new display, to which she said, "I'm not doing this for you. I'm doing it for me. I feel safe in your arms." I didn't really know what to say in that moment. Long pause... "That's good. I'm glad you feel safe." There were at least 4 other things rattling around in my head that could have come out, but I was just too beat up to start some emotionally-draining session.

Although I changed some estate planning, which is mostly symbolic, and would have no effect on day-to-day life, even if I were to die, I still have not told her of these changes. I'm not sure what the reaction would be. How would some of you people react if confronted with this type of news?

Hey River, maybe here's where NRE could actually work for me. She might not give a shit at all.

Thanks,
D
 
dingedheart said:
When I suggested she might want to go back if she needed to talk to someone outside the mess, she implied she couldn't go back to her.
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Wouldn't hurt to look for someone that connects with her better.

SNeacail., what is the story behind your username? I never remember it correctly...
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Hehe. I'll admit it's probably not the best username. S is my first initial and Neacail is the Gaelic spelling of my maiden name. Truth is, I have to type it to remember how to spell it sometimes. SN works for me.

You mentioned that you also have felt that spending time or dates with husband was out of obligation and not true desire. Did your husband pick up on that? Do you feel your husband does that to you? If so, are you okay with that?
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I'm sure he did pick up on some of it. The truth is, there weren't a lot of dates between us, which was part of the problem. I'm an "acts of service" and "quality time" person, and he was never home, so there was a big disconnect there. Sometimes, what started out as an obligation was very enjoyable, and didn't end as an obligation. But it was something I had to talk myself into, in the first place.

I do think he has done the same, but I viewed it as him recognizing that something was out of place and he was trying to find a way to rectify it. He didn't always get it right, and everything just seemed forced, but I couldn't hold it completely against him. Sometimes it takes effort to break old habits. Once the habit of indifference and complacency is broken, the true desire will follow.

After my run-in with gravity and packed snow, she seems much more affectionate. More hugs and kisses on the cheek, and the like. get the intention, but this could be a mixed message for a guy with broken ribs.
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It could be that she realizes she could have lost something she really does value. Ask her? I guess you could also tell her how it makes you feel when she abandons you and the family at the last minute to go play elsewhere.

My changing some estate planning... I still have not told her of these changes. I not sure what the reaction would be. How would some of you people react if confronted with this type of news?
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Oh. It won't be pretty, and she will probably be deeply hurt. Based on some of your other statements of her past history, I would guess that it's more about how she treats and acts toward you and the family than it is about her having a bf. Would you feel differently if she treated you better consistently? Be clear about where you think the problem lies and what she can do to fix it.
 
dingedheart said:
NRE being no one's fault, I disagree. I never get a pass on bad or thoughtless decisions no matter what.
She said "I'm not doing this for you. I'm doing it for me. I feel safe in your arms." "That's good. I'm glad you feel safe."
Changing estate planning... I still have not told her of these changes. How would you people react if confronted with this type of news?
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To me, thoughtless decisions and bad choices are a result of some people's inability to act and respond appropriately to NRE. NRE is not the cause of her behaviour, it's the result of how she handles it. Not very well, by the sounds of it.

I think the two other points in the quote relate. Her sense of safety might be jeopardized. I don't necessarily think that you should not have done what you did, but I guess you could have mentioned it before, in the spirit of setting an example of how you wish to be treated. I don't blame you for how you handled it, though.
 
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SN, I wish I'd ask the user name question sooner. Thanks a lot.

I'm a little confused. If your love languages are service and quality time, why wouldn't you want to spend time with him? Or put another way, if your love language is quality time, why would you have to force yourself to spend time with him?

It's kind of funny. I was reading your comment on the "affection" and the loss, and I just got it. You mean my death, right? I couldn't figure out what the loss was, because I haven't told her of the changes yet. Maybe. Or it could she feels a little guilty about not being able to help when needed. Could be she wants to look caring to someone who's been injured. When friends and neighbors are sick or injured, she's always, without question, doing things for them. Generally she isn't asked. She just does stuff. Good friend.

I have to say, I never thought what you mentioned as a motivation for the new affection. Not real good at reading her motivations, and even when I ask direct questions, I don't always trust the answers. I just thought it was unusual, the timing and all. I never felt she abandoned the family. She got a better offer. I think this single act somewhat reinforces my position of her doing things out of obligation. Given a choice, there is no choice.

Not going to be pretty, and then some. But I have been consistently wrong on reactions or actions. I might be worried for nothing.I think timing is going to be key. I think I need to revisit this primary topic and spell out how it looks to me.

I agreed to this journey. So from an intellectual point of view, I get it. As I said, I "think" I may have practiced this very lifestyle as a younger man. Most of my problems are operational.

RP, you stated NRE was not the problem, or the cause, it's the result. But it seems to be offered up as an excuse. Is this a chicken and egg argument?

My wife will not suffer financially if I die. The house is paid for. Stocks, other investments, she would be a part of. The difference is, she wouldn't wildly or grossly profit from my death.

How would my mentioning my decision to change life insurance be in the spirit of setting an example of how I wish to be treated? I think it would look like some type of blackmail, pressure or manipulation. Early on, I debated telling her at all. If it is truly symbolic, why bring it up? Why possibly hurt her?
 
dingedheart said:
You stated NRE is not the problem or the cause, it is the result. But it seems to be offered up as an excuse. Is this a chicken and egg argument?
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Well, when people are in NRE, they are drugged up and experiencing a rush of adrenaline, among other hormones. There is a thread on this somewhere. The question is, what does one do with that? Do you run off to Vegas behind your family's back to have a fuck fest? Or do you quietly mull over it while on vacation, and plan to meet your lover later, look forward to it, plan NRE out as a treat for when you are with them?

I dunno, DH. I seemed to have pulled off a respectful way to deal with my NRE without anyone blowing up. No chicken and egg stuff went on or goes on. My darling husband, on the other hand, is not the greatest with dealing with his NRE. I have had to put my foot down a couple of times, when he has neglected his responsibilities.

NRE happens over all kinds of things--spring in the air, a kitten, dancing to a beat and allowing myself to get totally lost. Containing it in appropriate moments is what I strive for. Dancing like I do when I go out for the night is not appropriate in a grocery store, for instance, nor is taking a day off work to feel the spring air on my face. (Well, maybe that's okay, depending on the situation).

NRE can be very selfish, and it's okay to be selfish if it is contained in appropriate moments, I think. It should not be used as an excuse for not considering other partners. No one gives a shit about other people's NRE. Only the person in it cares. Others might have some compersion, but that can vanish if they are not being respected. Responsibility is responsibility. NRE has no place there, as far as I am concerned.

dingedheart said:
How would my mentioning my decision to change life insurance be in the spirit of setting an example of how I wish to be treated? I think it would look like some type of blackmail, pressure, manipulation. I debated telling her at all. If its truly symbolic, why bring it up? Why possibly hurt her?
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I think you misunderstood. What I was saying is that discussing it first, or even telling her what your plan is, would be setting an example of how you expect to be treated. She didn't tell you about her trip. You in turn aren't telling her about the insurance. An eye for an eye doesn't set an example of how you want to be treated. "Do unto other as you would have them do unto you." I'm not Christian, but this is a profound statement, words to live by. I also think of "An it harm none, do what ye will," the Wiccan Rede.

As you say, it might mean nothing to her. But it might mean something to her, if you are even concerned about it.
 
I haven't read the other thread you referenced, but I did read this thread straight through, and I feel like I'm missing something.

If you had told her in advance, "I think it's in the best interests of our children for me to change my insurance so that they are my beneficiaries, and I'm making it so that someone else will handle the money, because I'm alarmed by the bad choices you are making, and I'm finding it impossible to trust you," then that would be a statement of fact. It might have been an emotional scene, and unhappy for everyone involved, but not manipulative, unless you were trying to use it to control her behavior. Telling her after the fact might have the same effect. But if it were to happen to me, I would feel ambushed, like I'd been given no notice that my behavior was unacceptable to you and that I'd been given no chance to change my ways.

I don't know if you're communicating with her, and I'm really not trying to condone her behavior, but I have to wonder if she would try to be a better partner if she had a chance to hear these things that you're sharing with us. Maybe I'm being naive, because I have a tough time understanding behavior like that which you're describing of your wife.
 
DH, I read this thread and your pain is very palpable. I think you probably have gone through this in some other thread, but I must ask; what is keeping you married to your wife? 20 years? You love her, you just have hard time remembering/expressing/accepting it right now? Kids? You're stubborn? You honestly believe things will get better?

As to your original question: my primary doesn't consider me her primary. Reason: we don't have sex. A perfectly valid reason, to my mind.
 
Good morning to all.

RP, yes, I did misunderstand your statement. I have tried very hard thoughout this to respect all views and behaviors. I try to live my life by that rule. In my professional life, I'm trying to get away from contracts and get back to old-fashioned handshakes.

I think the NRE thing is case specific.. Some it handle well, others don't. But I can tell you that it seems to be used as excuse or a reason to explain possible bad behavior. Several times on here, people have said things to that effect. It's NRE. It won't last forever. Hang in there. It's not her fault, it's NRE, as if it were seasonal flu, or something.

I know one thing. Three people, maybe more, are bearing the brunt of that NRE. I could list all the areas in which I believe I have been affected. Some of these concerns have been discussed with her, others have not. Most times, it's viewed as an attack, and then dismissed as my insecurity or jealousy.

When I was pissing blood and having real difficulty drawing a breath, the thought of those two living it up in Vegas with my kids' money was something I wasn't willing to risk. Not the best time to be doing heavy mental work. However, days later, after some healing and uninterrupted sleep, I still wanted to protect my kids from that possible downside.

In my head, I don't see this as a big deal. Nothing really changes. However, I am not that emotional about financial matters. As for RP's and Lemondrop's points of having a conversation about it, well, that could still happen, because I have not said anything yet. I feel bad about doing this and still being on her policy. That is one of the reasons I feel I have to say something soon, as I want to be removed from her policy.

Thanks, RP. I didn't have the fuck-fest image in my head until now. Thanks. Kidding.

Lemondrop, the discussion of not being "the primary" that I had with my wife was born out of behavior and situations in which I saw a shift or sliding away from our relationship. I've mentioned the issue of time spent, and dates, out of fairness. This is not uncommon. In fact, it's most likely common. People talk about the shift in their sex lives in the "Sexless marriage" thread. Others talk about loving their partners, but not being in love with their wives/husbands/longer-term partners. Some of the stuff I've complained about were not in the brochure when I signed up.

Hope that clears things up a little. If not, just ask. I appreciate all the different perspectives.
 
dingedheart said:
I think the NRE thing is case specific. Some it handle well, others don't. It seems to be used to excuse bad behavior. It's NRE. It won't last forever. Hang in there. It's not her fault, it's NRE, as if it's seasonal flu. Some of these concerns have been discussed with her. Most times it's viewed as an attack, and then dismissed as my insecurity or jealousy.
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New relationship energy is an explanation for behavior, not an excuse. The chemical reaction in the brain is well known to cause poor decision-making and lack of forethought. That doesn't make it right when you hurt people who love you.

I have a pre-diabetic condition, so sometimes my blood sugar level drops unexpectedly. This can cause everything from massive stupidity (as in, I can't figure out how to add 2+2) to becoming a raving psycho bitch. My family and I have learned to recognize the signs that something is off, and have ideas for things to do to alleviate the situation. My behavior is more likely to be bad during these episodes, but we all try to take steps to control and remedy the cause. If I were to scream at one of the kids during this time, it wouldn't be acceptable to me, BUT I might not recognize that I was behaving badly until my blood sugar was dealt with. That wouldn't mean that it was okay for me to scream at my kids; it just might make my apology go over better afterwards. Might.

All I've got left is, I'm sorry you're going through this, and I'm sorry your kids are going through this.
 
BlackUnicorn, great questions. Yes/no/yes/yes/yes very/yes. Kidding.

One mistake I made was telling my wife that, to me, this was a big commitment not to be entered into lightly. Take as much time as you need, think long and hard. About a yr or so into our marriage, the talk of kids came up, and I said, "This is great, but it's not something to be taken lightly." I think I said, "You add kids to this marriage, there will only be two ways out-- kill me or kill yourself." Why did I say this?

My wife's parents had each 3+ marriages. That's just marriages. Let's not forget the numerous other relationships and live-in situations. The fallout from that was apparent, even then. There is no fucking way my kids will have to go through something like that. I was in my 30s before entertaining marriage. I think I lived a poly lifestyle all through my 20s. Not the first girl I kissed.

I think perhaps my comment or that pledge to my kids has been used against me. She knows where I stand on this topic, right or wrong. She knows I'm not going to walk away. Maybe somebody here remembers where I wrote out our brief history and could provide a link.

I do love my wife. I think she is suffering, and trying to fill a void, most likely from her past.

I don't think I have trouble expressing my love. Maybe lately, yes, or not feeling like expressing anything.

Stubborn? Yeah, very. 20 yrs and 2 kids is something to work for.

Things getting better? I just don't know right now. I think I have to try and reframe things in my head and in real life.

The big problem I have is the disconnect between words and actions. To me, actions are much more powerful than words. Saying I love you can only go so far.
 
Currently my primary is rebounding after a psychotic breakdown. It has put a huge stress on our relationship, which has moved more into a caretaker arrangement. We don't live together at the moment. She is struggling with severe financial issues that I am of limited help with. Etc.

Hell, we even had a fight a few weeks back!

She is confident that this will make us stronger, though, and that our relationship will deepen with the crisis. At my despairing moments I try to remember I love the person, not the illness. So I think I understand some of what you are saying, DH.
 
BlackUnicorn, thanks for your comments. Wow, it sounds like you're going through a lot right now. I have no idea what the ramifications of a psychotic breakdown are, but it sounds horrible and labor-intensive. Does she have other poly partners to help in this crisis? What causes a psychotic breakdown?
 
Thanks! I don't want to hog your thread, but I'll answer briefly.

She needs pretty much constant baby-sitting, and for other people to structure her day, tell her to shower, encourage her to eat, to take care of her daily business, etc. Right now, I hope the tweak in her medication will help, since she recently took a turn for the worse (hence our fight). She has other platonic partners/friends, and is living primarily with her mum at this point, although I'm looking forward to moving back in with her in a week or two.

In her case, she has been feeling for a while now that she is a bad person, and destructive to all people around her. She keeps on telling me and everyone else near-and-dear that we would be so much better if she were dead. One of her favourite themes is that we think that we love her, but it's only because we don't know how horrible she really is inside. She feels that she is selfish and demanding and drains people around her and gives nothing back.

All of this is complete bull, of course, but her delusions are so strong that she often feels like 'Person A doesn't like me, in fact they hate me, and they are actively plotting my downfall.'
 
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