questions on optimizing the ENM life

[einio]

I am very new to the ENM/poly lifestyle and the community. I would’ve never guessed even a year ago, after 35-year marriage, that I would find myself where I am now.

I am searching for advice on how to schedule/organize/maintain the ENM life so that it is at least not painful, and brings the most happiness for all involved.

My story – I am in my 50s and fell in love with a married woman of the same age about a year ago. Both she and I are married: me, 30+ years, her, 20+ years. We found it very hard to abandon our primary partners and dissolve our marriages. We never cheated on our spouses. We immediately made them aware of our love, even before “anything” happened. It was months of agony before we realized that we could not destroy our current marriages. I continue to love my wife, and my partner is very attached to her husband, and yet we cannot live without each other.

My wife was very supportive of my new love. We decided that we are ready to shift into ENM lifestyle, where I can split my life between my life with my wife and my new partner. The situation is a bit more traumatic with my partner. Her husband, despite not actively resisting, does not fully accept it.

Initially we decided that we would meet for a long weekend every two weeks, renting new Airbnbs every time we met. But that felt very shallow. The torturous thought that despite being able to see each other, we cannot really build a real spousal life, and we have no future, was crippling us badly. Hence we decided to establish a residence for us close to where my partner lives (several hours' flights from where I live) and make it our permanent residence, where I'd spend half of my time.

This decision, to spend three weeks at my old home with my wife, and three weeks in my new residence with my partner, is approved and supported by my wife.

There are a lot of psychological problems associated with this lifestyle. We call it switching. Switching the focus of attention from one partner to another, while staying with a given partner, is hard and psychologically challenging. Changing residences is quite weird as well, as you are missing your other partner during that time a lot and at the same time there is a feeling of distance accumulation.

So again, I am searching for advice on how to live the ENM life so that it is at least not painful, and brings most happiness for all involved.

1. What are the ideal durations of living with each partner?
Should we all live close, or is it better to keep things geographically separated?
Is living together, all of us, an option, or is that even harder psychologically?

2. What kind of “next in line” psychological problems should we expect coming?
What can we do to be ready for them and prevent them?

3. Which is the best way to maintain connection with the away partner so that they feel true love, while I am with another partner?

Advice from your personal experiences is greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello einio,

A shared calendar is a good idea, my V has one and we swear by it. The three of us share a home, we had separate domiciles quite a few years ago and that worked well for us at that time. We kind of eased into a situation where I would live with them, at first I just visited for a few hours, then for a whole day, then overnight, etc.

Everyone experiences jealousy from time to time, even polyamorists. The secret is to focus on your own needs, rather than compare what you're getting with what your metamour is getting. Everyone is different, and each of you has your own set of needs. Some people need more time than others.

Long-distance relationships are hard, you really have to maintain your connection with the partner who is far away. Texts and phone calls help, also some people watch a movie at the same time, then share their reactions to it by phone calls or texts. You have to figure out what works for you.

I hope that helps,
Kevin T.

 

[dingedheart]

Ho and welcome to the forum

I am very new to the ENM/poly lifestyle and the community and I would’ve never guessed even a year ago after 35 year old marriage that I would find myself where I am now.

I am searching for advice on how to schedule/organize/maintain the ENM life so that it is at least not painful and brings most happiness for all involved.

My story – I am in my 50s and fell in love with a married woman of same age about a year ago. Both she and I are married: me, 30+ years, her, 20+ years. We found it very hard to abandon our primary partners and dissolve marriages.

How long were you involved with this woman before coming clean to the spouses?

We never cheated on our spouses and immediately made them aware of our love even before “anything” happened.

You mean anything physical, correct?

Edit : another member sent me this podcast today and after listen to it I think it’s well worth the time to listen if people want to transition an affair into a poly dynamic.

Polyamory After an Affair — MAKING POLYAMORY WORK

Polyamory After an Affair

www.makingpolyamorywork.com

It was months of an agony before we realized that we could not destroy our current marriages. I continue to love my wife and my partner is very attached to her husband, and yet we cannot live without each other.

I think the idea you’re proposing automatically has a red or at least an orange flag with the use of attached vs she still loves her husband.

My wife was very supportive of my new love. We decided that we are ready to shift into ENM lifestyle where I can split my life between my life with my wife and my new partner. The situation is a bit more traumatic with my partner. Her husband, despite not actively resisting, does not fully accept it.

Not a shock he’s not super excited about it …she loves him like a distant uncle. I’m not sure what they have now but he getting whatever that was in the absolute ideal sense (and it’s never in the ideal sense in the open yr/18 months), when all the mistakes are made. Whatever happy/grand vision you 2 have of this working logistically/mechanically, I hope you can pull off 40-60% of that for the spouses. Id deliberately try to set everyone’s (mostly the spouses') expectations as low as possible, so as to not fall horribly short, month after month. Basically you’re playing defense while ahead, just working the clock.

Initially we decided that we meet for a long weekend every two weeks, renting new airbnbs every time we meet. The torturous thought that despite being able to see each other we cannot really build real spousal life and we have no future was crippling us badly. Hence we decided to establish a residence for us close to where my partner lives (several hours' flight from where I live) and make it our permanent residence where I spend half of my time.

This decision (spend three weeks at my old home with my wife and three weeks in my new residence with my partner) is approved and supported by my wife.

Wow, that’s a hellava jump from a long weekends twice a month. You realize you're whacking both spouses with some pretty big changes in a short span of time, right? I think all 4 of you need to read the poly hell article. I’ll link it.

kathylabriola.com - ARE YOU IN POLY HELL?

COMMON PITFALLS IN OPEN RELATIONSHIPS Many people who are in a primary relationship stumble into an outside relationship either by choice or by chance, and once involved, things can go beautifully or can go terribly awry. Here are some of the most common problems that develop and some ideas for

www.kathylabriola.com

There are a lot of psychological problems associated with this lifestyle. We call it switching. Switching the focus of attention from one partner to another, while staying with a given partner is hard and psychologically challenging. Changing residences is quite weird as well, as you are missing your other partner during that time a lot, and there is a feeling of distance accumulation.

Just from looking at the blueprints, my gut reaction is the 3-week span for the new NRE couple would hit its stride at the end of the second week where it would start to feel “normal“ and not so much like a vacation. Then you have to switch back and integrate back into the old relationship and the 3 weeks of distance and whatever has occurred in the space with poly-bombed spouses. There could be some frost on the field for the first week or more until that feels more normal-ish then get ready for the flip cycle. I could see arguments and heated discussions happening at the end of week 2, heading into week 3.

There are other people here that have serious time split along these lines. Hopefully they come and comment.

1. What are the ideal durations of living with each partner?
Should we all live close or is it better to keep things geographically separated?
Is living together for all of us together an option, or is it even harder psychologically?

2. What kind of “next in line” psychological problems should we expect coming?
What can we do to be ready for them and to prevent them?

3. Which is the best way to maintain connection with the away partner so that they feel true love while I am with another partner?

I’m not sure there is a perfect time split. It's probably going to be what works best for you 4. And there the problem is getting 4 people on the same page, so "ideal" will be a big negotiation.

I'd dig through the poly resource page and read everything.

Work with both partners asking that exact question. Know their individual love languages. Try to tailor messages of emails or handwritten letters, flower deliveries, etc., while you’re away. I'd work on crafting all that while you're with them so you're not eating up tons of time and attention while with the other. Like for instance, end of week one, return with wife, you go to a flower shop, buy flowers and preorder/pay for something to be delivered (2 1/2 weeks from today).

Any thought how you’re going to work out birthdays and anniversaries?

You guys are all older. How many kids or grandkids are involved, if any?

 

[Magdlyn]

I am very new to the ENM/poly lifestyle and the community. I am searching for advice on how to schedule/organize/maintain the ENM life so that it brings the most happiness for all involved.

My story – I fell in love with a woman about a year ago. Both she and I are married: me, 30+ years, her, 20+ years. We found it very hard to abandon our primary partners and dissolve our marriages. We never cheated on our spouses. We immediately made them aware of our love, even before “anything” happened. It was months of agony before we realized that we could not destroy our current marriages. I continue to love my wife, and my partner is very attached to her husband, and yet we cannot live without each other.

Bravo to you both for coming clean to your spouses right away.

My wife was very supportive of my new love. We decided that we are ready to shift into ENM lifestyle, where I can split my life between my life with my wife and my new partner. The situation is a bit more traumatic with my partner. Her husband, despite not actively resisting, does not fully accept it.

Your new partner's husband not accepting this is the most important factor and problem/speedbump in all of this, especially your new living arrangements. Everything hinges on that.

We decided to establish a residence for us close to where my partner lives (several hours' flights from where I live) and make it our permanent residence, where I'd spend half of my time. This decision, to spend three weeks at my old home with my wife, and three weeks in my new residence with my partner, is approved and supported by my wife.

But not by gf's husband, you see. This seems ominous. How has this been addressed? Have you met him? Have you and your wife hung out with gf and her husband? Has he become more accepting over the past year? Does he show resentment, envy, jealousy, etc.?

Does this other couple need help, therapy, a support group?

There are a lot of psychological problems associated with this lifestyle. We call it switching. Switching the focus of attention from one partner to another, while staying with a given partner, is hard and psychologically challenging. Changing residences is quite weird as well, as you are missing your other partner during that time a lot and at the same time there is a feeling of distance accumulation.

Yes, this is pretty much a universal problem. I've been actively practicing polyamory since 2009, and I still miss my partners when we are separated. But then again, absence makes the heart grow fonder. And we become more interesting to each other, since we have stories to share of our independent adventures.

Are either your wife or gf's husband interested in dating others?

1. What are the ideal durations of living with each partner?

Up to you. Read the book Designer Relationships.

Should we all live close, or is it better to keep things geographically separated?

For me, and many, the closer the better, short of actually cohabitating.

As for me, I rent a house with one of my partners, Pixi. My metamour Malachi (see my sig), owns his own home the next town over. My bf Aries lives in my town. His official address is with some extended family members. Both Pixi and Aries travel back and forth (just a 10-15 minute drive) to see me, and Aries has another gf about an hour south of us, whom he sees a few times a month (not overnight).

For us, this arrangement is pretty close to ideal. It's taken a long time to get it just right, with just the right partners.

I really dislike LDRs like you have. Even a 45-minute drive is too much for me. I came to prefer 20 minutes, max. I'd say, if your gf's husband is amenable, either you and wife, or gf and husband, moving so you and gf can be in much closer proximity would be great. Maybe not quite yet, as it's only been a year. But you can start thinking about it.

Is living together, all of us, an option, or is that even harder psychologically?

I wouldn't want to live with Pixi's bf Malachi, and she wouldn't want to live with Aries. And our bfs are very different. Aries is extremely outgoing and extroverted. Malachi is very introverted. It even took him years to bring Pixi fully into his own life. He would never want to live with me OR Aries. The idea makes me laugh. We'd drive him crazy. We practice "garden-party polyamory."

Living quite nearby, in big enough homes so that all the partners can have privacy, could work. If you can afford to rent a small apartment/love nest for you and gf, in between your official homes, all the better.

It's pretty rare for entire poly networks to cohabitate, unless it's just three people, and the two arms of a V both get along super well. MFM seems to work best.

2. What kind of “next in line” psychological problems should we expect coming?

As I said above, I'm wondering if your spouses will want to also poly-date. (I don't mean date each other, just others in general.) It helps that you're all in your 40s-50s, so you're not worried about "coming out" to parents, and possibly not even to fully dependent teenagers, etc. It seems you also have a lot of job flexibility and funds to be able to live in two homes for three weeks at a time.

What can we do to be ready for them and prevent them?

Go to our Golden Nuggets section to find books, articles, a podcast and movies, plus consolidated older threads from here going back to 2009, addressing all the general poly info you could ever think of.

3. Which is the best way to maintain connection with the away partner so that they feel true love, while I am with another partner?

That varies. Texting and videocalls work for most people.

Feel free to ask more specific questions. Welcome to polyamory.

 

[MeeraReed]

You are very, very lucky that your wife is supportive of your new relationship and is on board with the plan for you to spend half your time apart from her.

The biggest thing to remember in polyamory is to continue to nurture and grown your original relationship. Plan romantic dates and vacations for you and your wife, not just with your new partner. Many poly couples have scheduled "date nights" with their long-term live-in partner, to rekindle the fun of the long-ago "dating" phase.

To answer one of your questions, an easy one: absolutely DO NOT all plan to live together. There is no reason your wonderfully supportive wife needs to become roommates with her metamour (your other partner).

Possibly your wife is looking forward to having some alone time when you visit your girlfriend? Maybe your wife wants to date other people also?

I am a big fan of the "living apart together" movement, in which committed spouses (even monogamous ones) decide that living separately works better than living together. I think a lot of problems in long-term relationships are simply caused by the annoyances of having to share space!

So, I think that splitting your time between two homes could work well for both of your relationships. Many poly people have part-time living arrangements with partners.

If your relationship with your girlfriend becomes long-term, and her husband becomes okay with it (or they divorce), I guess you could consider a way for you and your wife to live closer to your girlfriend. But I would still plan on having two residences--one for you and your wife and one for you and your girlfriend (or three residences, counting your girlfriend's home with her husband). Even so, it's premature to plan for any of you to uproot your lives to move near each other now, when her husband is still struggling with the situation, and the relationship is still new.

Some practical advice: if the three-weeks there, three-weeks here plan is what works logistically for you and your wife, that's okay. But you may want to consider being flexible about how your girlfriend spends that 3 weeks with you. Since she is close to her home, maybe she will need to go home for some of that time, to be with her husband, to see friends/family, to do house chores, etc.

You may also want to spend some evenings during those 3 weeks having phone conversations or virtual dates/chats with your wife, to maintain that connection while you are away from her.

For example, with my former partner, for many years I spent every other weekend with him at his apartment. But the drive between us was long, and that schedule exhausted me. After he bought a house and I was working remotely, I visited him at his house for 1 week every 4 to 5 weeks, and he would visit me for a weekend during the month I was home. These logistics worked better for me because we lived 2 hours apart and I was caring for my dad at home. So, 1 week a month or so was how often I could get a break from caretaking, and staying a full week at my partner's house worked better for me than driving back and forth on weekends.

BUT my partner struggled with that schedule. He missed me during our weeks apart, and he also felt that me being at his place for a full week cramped his style, because he was much more active/social on weeknights than I am. And he occasionally had other partners who resented having no dates with him while I was there for the full week.

So, we figured out that it worked well for him to have a date night with someone else or go out socializing with friends for one night during the week that I was at his house. At first, I was against that idea because I wanted that full week to be quality time together. But then I realized that I enjoyed a night to myself at his house, and he enjoyed his nights out during "our" week, so much so that we'd both be in better moods than if we tried to spend every night for the entire week together.

You may also want to consider an unequal split in time--why not 2 weeks at the residence with your girlfriend, then 3 weeks at home, for example? Just because you love 2 people doesn't mean you have to split time with them 50-50. Other logistics might work better. Surely, you have more commitments (such as home maintenance, extended family, pets, grown children, grandchildren, elder care of aging parents??) with your wife of 35 years than with your new partner? As your girlfriend surely does with her husband?

My advice would be, don't forget to honor those commitments in your established relationship.

You can get a small, low-maintenance apartment or condo with your girlfriend and build a life with her that doesn't need to be as "spouse-like" as the relationship & life you have with your wife.

 

[Sisilisko]

I am searching for advice on how to live the ENM life so that it is at least not painful, and brings most happiness for all involved.

Let me be the naysayer.

Sometimes you avoid the most pain and create the most happiness when you accept that you're trying to solve an equation that does not have a solution.

You're describing a situation in which there are four essentially monogamous people - monogamous in the sense that all of your experience, emotional and practical habits and expectations are shaped by your long monogamous relationships. As we (me+Fasaani+Hiiri) did, you're now trying to transition into a structure where you and the girlfriend end up alternating between two relationships each, and your wife and gf's husband end up alternating between a monogamous relationship and essentially being single.

What happened for me was that I was treating the relationship as essentially monogamous, just downscaling my expectations regarding the amount of time spent together and practical and financial support, but with emotional attachment of a monogamous relationship, so something like having a partner whose job regularly takes him away from home for multiple days. As you've already noticed, being a half-time husband times two is much more demanding than being a full-time husband, just as two part-time jobs place on you more demands than a single full-time job.

In my case, the fact that I could not rely on Fasaani being there for me increased my already existing tendency for anxious attachment behaviours, and as is typical, this increased the avoidant behaviours in Fasaani to the point that we both left the relationship with symptoms that possibly could be classified as trauma bonding (a state of permanent anxiety that the next interaction will be very painful while you still have reasons to hope that it will be loving and nurturing; this creates a chemical mix in the brain similar to substance addictions; of course, this result was not just due to the demands of polyamory, but also because of our bad communication patterns, individual personal characteristics, etc.)

(How we did it in practice: me and Hiiri lived in separate apartments a couple of hundred meters apart, and Fasaani was alternating on a schedule of 2/2/3 days, so that each couple would get alternating weekends; for me at least, things improved greatly when we moved into separate apartments in the same building, and Fasaani was alternately spending 1 day in each household; that felt almost like living with the partner full time. )

What I also see as a source of difficulty: although gf's husband has not vetoed the situation, he feels pressured to accept something that he does not want. In polyamory, as in sex, accepting non-enthusiastic consent from a partner is a path that is likely to create a lot of tension and difficulty down the road; people tend to be neither happy nor particularly cooperative in set-ups they did not choose willingly.

Add to it the fact that there's the 6 hour flight, so you don't have the option to relocate closer to each other without uprooting someone (probably your wife?). I'd be extremely cautious about that-- unless she is extremely introverted, having a robust network of friends with whom she can meet up, confide and have fun during her "single" time is essential.

My somewhat pessimistic view would be that you're not gonna make this work "until death parts you". That may be ok - enjoy this special time of your life when you get to experience something out of the ordinary. Just remember that the fact that people love each other does not mean that they have a moral obligation to pursue the relationship, nor that they'll pull it off even if they choose to make sacrifices to make it work. It may well be the case that the physical limitations of reality eventually force you to choose one of your partners over the other. If you are spiritual/religious, a helpful view may be that the physical reality is to teach us how to make choices - not just between good and evil (as if that was not difficult enough), but sometimes also between two wholesome options, or two not so wholesome ones; and choosing entails giving up on the option not chosen.

 

[einio]

Let me be the naysayer.

Dear Sisilisko.

Thank you very much for taking time and courage to give this sober and deep review of your experience.
I am not yet sufficiently well read in poly and ENM narrative but I understand that it is rare to hear the experience of a non-hinge partner of the V (the triad). It is very important for me and for those that will read this thread to hear and learn from your experience and the account of your feelings.

With respect to our story – you are right in some of the things you say about us. We weren't polyamorous from the get go and we didn't start from the onset by building our relationships to satisfy the specific aspects and needs of this lifestyle. Rather the ENM – is the way for us to survive and it took us time and a lot of psychological effort to realize this.

We are very mature (quite old in fact – all of us have kids out of college) and very self–reflective. While getting through the first agonizing months of our relationship, we went through thousand and one reasons for why it won't work. And yet here we are now (at least me, my wife and my partner, and we hope for my partner's husband to join us in this) – fully committed to make it work.

All four of us tried spending time one-on-one and in pairs with therapists and oddly – found it pretty useless. Perhaps the only conclusion that we got to was that it is impossible to generalize, and everything we build solely depends on the individual characters of each one of us, on our efforts, needs and flexibility.

And in this respect, and in respect to my ask to prepare us for foreseeable psychological pitfalls, I am very thankful to you for explicating this issue of "a state of permanent anxiety that the next interaction will be very painful while you still have reasons to hope that it will be loving and nurturing". So far me and my wife haven't run into this issue, but I guess we will follow the advice in response from MeeraReed.

I would love to hear more here from folks that managed to successfully keep it going and are in it now – what were the things that we have to attend to with a special effort.

Getting gentle encouragement from other people here – is priceless.

 

[Magdlyn]

I am not yet sufficiently well read in poly and ENM narrative but I understand that it is rare to hear the experience of a non-hinge partner of the V (the triad). It is very important for me and for those that will read this thread to hear and learn from your experience and the account of your feelings.

Actually we have hundreds or thousands of stories all over the board, going back to 2009, from hinges, and arms of Vs, and members of triads and quads. I can say the same for the books and articles listed in our Golden Nuggets section. I am not sure why you've only seen reports from hinges.

In fact, many of us are both hinges and arms. I am a hinge between my gf and bf. My gf is a hinge between me and her bf. My bf is a hinge between me and his other gf. (And occasionally he dates other new women). We have a poly network. Everyone has to be in balance.

Our experiences as both hinges and arms are equally as important and crucial to our success. The same principles apply-- patience, communication skills, respect, creativity, ability to schedule, etc.

With respect to our story – you are right in some of the things you say about us.

I would love to hear more here from folks that managed to successfully keep it going and are in it now. What are the things that we have to attend to with a special effort?

Getting gentle encouragement from other people here – is priceless.

 

[LaminarFlow]

I am very new to the ENM/poly lifestyle and the community. I would’ve never guessed even a year ago, after 35-year marriage, that I would find myself where I am now.

Hi Einio, welcome!

I am searching for advice on how to schedule/organize/maintain the ENM life so that it is at least not painful, and brings the most happiness for all involved.

My story – I am in my 50s and fell in love with a married woman of the same age about a year ago. Both she and I are married: me, 30+ years, her, 20+ years. We found it very hard to abandon our primary partners and dissolve our marriages. We never cheated on our spouses. We immediately made them aware of our love, even before “anything” happened. It was months of agony before we realized that we could not destroy our current marriages. I continue to love my wife, and my partner is very attached to her husband, and yet we cannot live without each other.

May I ask how long you and your GF have been dating? How many trips of long distance until you acquired a place together?

My wife was very supportive of my new love. We decided that we are ready to shift into ENM lifestyle, where I can split my life between my life with my wife and my new partner. The situation is a bit more traumatic with my partner. Her husband, despite not actively resisting, does not fully accept it.

Happy to hear that your wife is supportive. I'm sorry that The Husband is not accepting it, unfortunately that is something for your GF to deal with on the other side of the V.

Initially we decided that we would meet for a long weekend every two weeks, renting new Airbnbs every time we met. But that felt very shallow. The torturous thought that despite being able to see each other, we cannot really build a real spousal life, and we have no future, was crippling us badly. Hence we decided to establish a residence for us close to where my partner lives (several hours' flights from where I live) and make it our permanent residence, where I'd spend half of my time.
This decision, to spend three weeks at my old home with my wife, and three weeks in my new residence with my partner, is approved and supported by my wife.

That's great. Will your wife be dating as well, or she happy being monoamorous?

There are a lot of psychological problems associated with this lifestyle. We call it switching. Switching the focus of attention from one partner to another, while staying with a given partner, is hard and psychologically challenging. Changing residences is quite weird as well, as you are missing your other partner during that time a lot and at the same time there is a feeling of distance accumulation.

Have you ever been on vacation alone? Or with friends without your wife? How is/was your communication habit with her then? I'd suggest to keep it consistent and plan "date calls" when you are with GF.

So again, I am searching for advice on how to live the ENM life so that it is at least not painful, and brings most happiness for all involved.

1. What are the ideal durations of living with each partner?

That's up to you. Everyone is different.
In my almost decade with Magnet I've lived with him before, then we did long distance again because of work, and now we are nesting again. The thing is that all my partners still have their own home. I spend my time now between three home bases, that could be more or less in the future.

Should we all live close, or is it better to keep things geographically separated?

It depends if you are comfortable with LDRs. Personally, I'm pro. And my experience has been that I've nested with Magnet and Laboucle before, then we were long distance, and now I'm nesting with Magnet again. It doesn't have to be or, it can be either. Perhaps I will nest with Sabre in the future. Have you and Wife discussed it? Would she like to relocate to where your GF lives?

I have a GPP/KTP dynamic. We tend to do dinners, milestones, holidays together, so with Sabre and Laboucle it stops at holidays together and they both have a room at my place when they come visit. With some can you do GPP, some KTP, and perhaps with some a V, if that's how you want to navigate. I prefer GPP the best as a baseline.

Is living together, all of us, an option, or is that even harder psychologically?

I wouldn't jump into that. How about meeting each other first and see if you get along? (If The Husband eventually gets to the point of being supportive).

If your Wife is open meeting your GF, I'd start with that first. Do you have a spare room in your house? You could dedicate one to GF in the future if she is visiting.

2. What kind of “next in line” psychological problems should we expect coming?
What can we do to be ready for them and prevent them?

The most problematic thing is The Husband. If he's going to be "supportive" he might want to keep it a separate V (I think) and not be willing to relocate to a place for a situation that is already quite hard to stand behind. So keep in mind that action will have to come from you and Wife, if you want to live permanently close to your GF.

If GF and The Husband do divorce, she might need extra support from you, and you'll support her just like you would support a friend.

3. Which is the best way to maintain connection with the away partner so that they feel true love, while I am with another partner?

You have to ask your wife and GF that. They both will have different wants and needs. Magnet is a functional texter, so he prefers (video)calls, or a card or a small package with a letter and memorabilia of the place that I am traveling to. We are not in touch every day or every week if we are away for a long period. We tend to communicate that we arrived safely, some highlights, or if he sees something funny, he'll send a picture. But that's it. Sabre is an Olympic texter, so he loves to stay in touch that way and make time in my day to say "good morning" and "goodnight" to him. For Laboucle it doesn't matter. She is flexible, but we communicate a lot by sending each other songs and do "date calls" once a week.

So do whatever works for you and each dyad.

Advice from your personal experiences is greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

Hope this helps!

 

[einio]

That's great. Will your wife be dating as well, or she happy being monoamorous?

We are very close with my wife and I value fairness a lot hence I would fully support her decision to date and experiment with another person yet so far she wants to be monogamous. As far as I heard from my GF same goes for her husband.

Have you ever been on vacation alone? Or with friends without your wife? How is/was your communication habit with her then? I'd suggest to keep it consistent and plan "date calls" when you are with GF.

When I am with my GF we have a long call with my wife every morning (30min or so) and then occasionally text.

I guess what is most important for me now is not to loose the feeling of building life together – both with my GF and with my wife.

This was the agonizing feeling when we started our relationship with my GF that we don't have a future. Future for us is – building a spousal life together. After trying this and that we "fixed" it by establishing the residence and extending our together time from few days to several weeks at a time and having some remote project together when we are apart.

Yet I wonder what for everyone here constitutes this feeling and the essence of BUILDING LIFE TOGETHER – what is it composed of? Of course as a 50+ year old with family and kids I can answer this question yet I wonder what is "builing together" in ENM life. Would love to hear your experience

 

[LaminarFlow]

We are very close with my wife and I value fairness a lot hence I would fully support her decision to date and experiment with another person yet so far she wants to be monogamous. As far as I heard from my GF same goes for her husband.

Okay that's good then. So the issue is the distance and The Husband who most likely wants to keep it a V? Is GF taking stock with Husband? You still haven't answered mine and Dingedheart's question about how long you and GF have been dating before you acquired a place together (so quickly)? Did you and GF have an emotional affair before coming out to your spouses? There are some details missing here.

When I am with my GF we have a long call with my wife every morning (30min or so) and then occasionally text.

Who is we? You and GF? Why aren't you having 1:1 "call date" with your Wife? That's not You + Wife quality-time. You aren't in a triad.

I guess what is most important for me now is not to loose the feeling of building life together – both with my GF and with my wife.

This was the agonizing feeling when we started our relationship with my GF that we don't have a future. Future for us is – building a spousal life together. After trying this and that we "fixed" it by establishing the residence and extending our together time from few days to several weeks at a time and having some remote project together when we are apart.

Yet I wonder what for everyone here constitutes this feeling and the essence of BUILDING LIFE TOGETHER – what is it composed of? Of course as a 50+ year old with family and kids I can answer this question yet I wonder what is "builing together" in ENM life. Would love to hear your experience

I'd look into Non-Escalator Relationship Menu and see where you get off the escalator?

 

[Quasar]

Fascinating turn of events how OP, his wife and his new partner live in their own bubble (like Laminarflow's mentioned triad) while the husband is on the sidelines. OP doesn't seem to know a lot about the husband, while his wife is very close with his girlfriend.

Is there a term for this? Usually in monogamy it's called cowgirling/cowboying, if I'm not mistaken, right? Or am I wrong?

 

[GalaGirl]

This seems like a lot of things too fast if it's only been a year.

We immediately made them aware of our love, even before “anything” happened. It was months of agony before we realized that we could not destroy our current marriages. I continue to love my wife, and my partner is very attached to her husband, and yet we cannot live without each other.

"Change" is not "destruction."

Neither of the spouses can MAKE you stick with monogamy if you don't want it anymore. But they don't have to sign up for a new deal called "polyamory" either.

Your wife consents and seems supportive for now. But OtherHusband is not. So that right there would have caused me to tell potential GF, "Well, I can't date like that. Look me back up when you are free or things have changed for you."

The situation is a bit more traumatic with my partner. Her husband, despite not actively resisting, does not fully accept it.

Why do you choose to be involved in traumatic things? Your new GF could sort her old stuff before starting new stuff with you.

Are you helping your GF railroad her husband into things he doesn't want? Is this poly under duress for him? If he's not joyfully consenting to these changes, why are you going ahead with it anyway?

Where's the "ethical" in "ethical non-monogamy" for you? Do your personal ethics say it's okay to do this kind of thing? You see there is pain, and you carry on anyway?

Then getting a residence with GF, and switching homes every 3 weeks, and traveling to the other home? Who is paying for that? Are ALL the spouses thrilled with that plan and new allocation of finances? Your wife is okay with it, but what about GF and her husband?

Could it be 1 month at a time, or even 3 or 6 months at a time instead? Why this odd 3-week number?

People don't want the plane to crash. They still pack parachutes. Even if you and wife are good, are you going to be able to support GF if that side gets divorced?

If wife decides she wants to date other people on the weeks you are away, you are good with that, right? Both of you can date?

If your dating budget covers another residence and plane flights every 3 weeks, wife's dating budget is the same size, right?

If GF decides she wants another dating partner besides her husband and you, you are good with that, right?

I get you don't want to divorce. But if this doesn't pan out on your side, and maybe you or wife wants to break up, do you two have your paperwork already sorted out, so you aren't trying to make the divorce plan WHILE stressed out? Maybe you want to line up a poly counselor for support through this current transition? Get all the parachutes in place? Maybe this helps you find a poly counselor you can work with.

Polyamory-Friendly Professionals Directory

Polyamory-Friendly Professionals Directory

www.polyfriendly.org

Coming to polyamory as the "solution" so you don't have to divorce spouses? Well, poly people sometimes DO get divorces. So I think you might have to unpack all that. If the healthiest thing to do is to end a relationship, why drag out?

If you and GF don't pan out after the NRE wears off, have you talked about how to part peacefully?

There are a lot of psychological problems associated with this lifestyle. We call it switching. Switching the focus of attention from one partner to another, while staying with a given partner, is hard and psychologically challenging. Changing residences is quite weird as well, as you are missing your other partner during that time a lot, and at the same time there is a feeling of distance accumulation.

Over time, you get good at the new routine and at compartmentalizing. You will still miss the partner you aren't with. It will still feel kind of "ping pong." But that's part of the price of admission if you are splitting your time like this.

Or you will find you don't like a LDR like this, and change the schedule or domiciles so it is not a LDR anymore.

What are the ideal durations of living with each partner?
Should we all live close, or is it better to keep things geographically separated?
Is living together, all of us, an option, or is that even harder psychologically?

Right now, you are still at the beginning and sorting out compatibilities. I'd leave it like it is for at least another year, maybe more, because you zoomed into cohabitating super fast.

No new plans for a while. No (you + wife) moving closer to where (GF+husband) are, or the other way around, for at least another year, maybe two. Slow your roll some. You don't have to do everything on super speed.

At the MOST, separate homes in the same town. But NO living together like both couples in the same home. The reason it might be kinda working for now is because all of you get space apart, and OtherHusband is numb. You and your wife being long distance makes you more "ignorable." You aren't in the same town, and OtherHusband doesn't have to hear about you from his social circles.

Wife is in her home when you are with your GF. OtherHusband doesn't have to live with you or your wife. He also gets to be in his home when GF is with you. Cramming everyone together in one home in one town-- nobody would get any time or space away from it.

And if/when OtherHusband comes out of the numb stage and hits the angry stage, do you want to be living with that in the same home?

What kind of “next in line” psychological problems should we expect coming?
What can we do to be ready for them and prevent them?

From what you wrote, I'm not confident OtherHusband is joyful about this, nor will he change his mind about it.

IME, "quiet" doesn't mean "okay with it." Sometimes it means depressed, numb, resigned, or just checked out. Sometimes they are biding their time, gathering resources to be ABLE to leave. So I'd prepare for some drama in their marriage...

And maybe some drama within you. If he's so resigned, and basically a doormat, and GF is cool with that, you're watching her treating him with less than loving and kind behavior while claiming to love you. You might start looking at your GF differently, maybe not admiring her as much. You might also worry what will happen when she dates someone else and you are no longer the New Shiny Person.

Which is the best way to maintain connection with the away partner so that they feel true love, while I am with another partner?

Why are you worried about Wife feeling "true love?" Or the GF feeling "true love?" What does that mean to you? Is it different than "healthy love?"

You ask Wife what she needs to maintain connection, and if they are reasonable and rational requests, you do them. Everyone is different. Some people want a good night text, some people don't.

You ask GF the same.

What is needed at the start could change, and may not be needed once things are more routine.

Me? I'd get to a point where I'd just want to know you arrived safe/are coming home now. Maybe a weekly short call check-in. Or maybe just "See you when you are back" because this is happening so often. It's only 3 weeks. I don't have to be in constant contact for that short a time.

But every person is different, so best to ask what the partner needs.

Galagirl

 

[GalaGirl]

Yet I wonder what for everyone here constitutes this feeling and the essence of BUILDING LIFE TOGETHER – what is it composed of? Of course as a 50+ year old with family and kids, I can answer this question. Yet I wonder what "building together" is in ENM life. Would love to hear your experience.

For me, it would be "sharing life" not "building life" together. Really, it is all "sharing life," but I'm just not in my 20s anymore, like, starting career, thinking about having kids, etc. YKWIM?

Maybe looking at this relationship menu will help you articulate what sharing midlife could be like for you.

https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/comments/pwkdxp/v3_relationship_components_menu_last_update_for

GG

 

[einio]

"Change" is not "destruction."

Thank you so much for taking time to respond here and for your interesting perhaps sometimes foreign to me perspectives. I will try to answer one-by-one to some of the issues you raise.

First – I have to say that I am a bit appalled by what read as a bit of aggression in some of the answers

Who is we? You and GF? Why aren't you having 1:1 "call date" with your Wife? That's not You + Wife quality-time. You aren't in a triad.

Perhaps it is my weak command of english (which isn't my first) that made LaminarFlow jump fast to conclusion and read "we" as all three of us and not me and my wife. And I apologize for these kind of grammar mistakes in my narrative. Of course it was me and my wife.

Why do you choose to be involved in traumatic things?

I didn't choose. The relationship just came/descended upon us. None of us while still being in our initial marriages (before we met) planned or a priori intended to transition to an ENM/poly lifestyle for any reason that is commonly quoted in poly literature – spicing up sexual life? getting new experiences? Not in our wildest nightmares. It would be fair to say though that both marriages had some issues that were long overdue in solving, and perhaps just could not be solved/revealed otherwise (please don't advise – "just go to therapy instead", waaaay too late). So it just happened, and our love was way toо serious to just simply stop it (quoting your "why continue?"). Also our love and care to our spouses is serious – it is not that we at will can simply stop or start (when "needed") such kind of things. So in other words, ENM for us isn't an a priori choice, it is the way to continue living happily in this situation and letting all the loves to live.

Where's the "ethical" in "ethical non-monogamy" for you?

The ethical – is complete transparency and honesty. Yes, it brings pain to my GF's husband. But we just cannot stop it. I cannot stop everything in my life that potentially brings pain to another person. That is a reality of life. We are trying to be as accommodating and mindful as possible.

If your dating budget covers

"Dating budget" – a bit new for me, yet perhaps an honest way to put it. It covers. We don't dig into the budget part that would've hurt the lifestyle of our spouses.

Both of you can date?

Of course.

 

[GalaGirl]

No actual aggression meant. I know internet does not convey voice tone/inflection nor body language. I know for people not used to direct communication, it can come across as strong.

I didn't choose. The relationship just came/descended upon us.

You may not be able to help your feelings. You do get to choose your behaviors.

If OtherHusband is not joyfully consenting, then continuing to date GF is a choice you are making while knowing someone involved is unhappy about it. You could choose not to date her until she is actually free of him, or until they have renegotiated their agreements and he genuinely feels differently. Right now, you are choosing to proceed anyway.

I get that you are in NRE, but whom you date, when you date them, and how you date them are all still choices.

It would be fair to say, though, that both marriages had some issues that were long overdue in solving and perhaps just could not be solved/revealed otherwise.

Are each of the married people working on their pre-existing issues in the marriages?

So in other words – ENM for us isn't an a priori choice. It is the way to continue living happily in this situation and letting all the loves to live.

You’ve said ENM isn’t an a-priori choice for you, but a way to let “all the loves live.”

Does “living happily” include all parties? From what you describe, OtherHusband is not happy in this arrangement.

The ethical – is complete transparency and honesty. Yes it brings pain to my GF's husband – but we just cannot stop it.

It is good that you and GF are being open and transparent. But those are not the only things needed.

If OtherHusband is not on board, and did not consent to this change, how is this going to feel different to him than a cheating affair out in the open? It is not going on hidden behind his back. But how does it feel to him right now?

You asked what sorts of psychological issues to expect and prepare for. That might be one of them-- him feeling "ugh" about the whole thing, and perhaps growing resentments that later may explode. Sometimes people go along with things for a while that they don't really want because they don't want to be "the one that ruins it for everyone," or they are people pleasing, afraid to break up, or do it for other reasons.

You may need to shift your mindset from "optimizing happiness" to "creating stability." That may mean slowing down, doing consent repair, reducing harm, and being willing to change the schedule/frequency. A lot has changed very quickly.

One practical way to do that is to build in real check-ins, maybe every 3 months, where all parties can honestly say whether this is working for them, and where you are all genuinely willing to adjust pace, structure, or expectations based on what comes up.

If this isn’t working for someone anymore, be okay with them quitting—whether that’s one person, two people, or even down to everyone single again. That is part of being prepared, even if it’s uncomfortable to think about.

Again, I am not being mean or aggressive. Because English is not your first language, I pared it down as much as I could in this post.

GG

 

[LaminarFlow]

First – I have to say that I am a bit appalled by what read as a bit of aggression in some of the answers

If this is about me, I happen to write direct and short-handed sometimes.

Perhaps it is my weak command of english (which isn't my first) that made LaminarFlow jump fast to conclusion and read "we" as all three of us and not me and my wife. And I apologize for these kind of grammar mistakes in my narrative. Of course it was me and my wife.

No problem, it happens.

It looked like you were calling your Wife every morning next to your GF, but thank you for the clarification.

 

[Sisilisko]

Regarding your original question, how to make this least painful for everyone.

You have to ask each involved person, listen attentively, and try your best to accommodate what you hear. There's no "one size fits all advice", because the very essence of ENM is breaking away from preset scripts and trying to find a set-up that would suit the particular needs of particular people in a particular situation.

Some ramblings with no particular direction:

In my experience, one of the issues that arose when Hiiri said yes to nonmonogamy not enthusiastically was that she did not want to go through the endless discussions needed to find a compromise that would suit all. She felt it was Fasaani's and my responsibility to make it work. That made it really difficult to find solutions that wouldn't feel like choosing to harm either her or myself over and over again. Especially as the hinge partner, this wears you down - you want to think of yourself as of a kind person, and having to choose constantly between hurting person A and hurting person B is not congruent with that. However, it's understandable that the partner who felt pressured to agree to nonmonogamy doesn't want to spend much time negotiating how that NM should be set up: they have all the reasons to expect that their wishes won't be respected and that there's not much point making the effort. Or they set hard boundaries and don't compromise, the rest is your problem.

The reason people insist on enthusiastic consent so much is that for ENM to be joyfully sustainable, a lot of factors have to match. When choosing a partner for a monogamous relationship (or for any dyad), you'd ideally want a whole host of criteria to match: communication styles, sexual needs, religious views, life tempo, Ideals about money, work, expectations regarding holidays, treating aging parents, community responsibility etc. In ENM, you add to it needs and expectations regarding relationships between metamours: if some members of the polycule have strong privacy needs and prefer not to communicate with their metamours at all (in our case that was Hiiri) while others have a strong need for direct communication and would prefer to cohabitate (me), it's not easy to find a compromise that will work for everyone. Same is true about finances, time management etc. Choosing prospective partners with these factors in mind makes the ensuing relationships easier.

Obviously, it's usually not the case that you start a relationship with so much intention and rational consideration of all the factors, and as a result you face a lot of moral dilemmas that essentially boil down to "Will I choose the option that makes me and gf unhappy, or will I choose the option that makes wife and gf's husband unhappy?" The traditional answer is that it would have been ethical to choose making yourself and gf unhappy (to give up your love), and it's less ethical to make wife and OtherHusband unhappy.

One of the reasons is that giving up early love is seen as creating temporary pain, while NM is a long-term pain, unless embraced willingly. As you know, it's not as simple as that: giving up the liveliness that comes with the new relationship would have been a long term sacrifice, not a short term one. The resentment towards the problems in the original relationship would also remain a long-term problem.

Someone's bound to mention that "opening up a marriage doesn't solve the pre-existing problems"; frankly, I think that sometimes it does (some of them, while creating others). Does your new gf complain about behaviors that your wife used to complain about but gave up? That may double your motivation to do something about them, in both relationships, and while wife will be hurt that you didn't address this for her and now you're addressing the issue for gf, avoiding the hurtful behavior will improve her life as well. Does the new relationship become demanding and tumultuous after the NRE fades off? Maybe it helps you cherish the security you have in the original one.