Setting Clear Boundaries with Friends

[Vulpis]

I posted previously but things feel a bit different now and I need some advice.

I'm in a long term relationship with Partner, who is monogamous. We have halted the poly discussion as I'm pretty sure at this point he has no desire to work toward opening up. Meanwhile, I go out to parties and hang out with male friends every other week or so.

Please forgive me if this sounds arrogant or vain, but ever since I sexually "discovered" myself by kissing another guy a few months ago, men seem drawn to me. They flirt openly with me and no longer hold back during deep discussions. I think I now exude a brand of confidence that some people are attracted to. I flirt back pretty aggressively sometimes.

Trouble is I'm inexperienced and not used to being wanted AND wanting more. I'm really struggling to set my own boundaries and don't really know how to explain my situation to men who are clearly getting ideas about me. Does anyone have experience with navigating the waters? I feel like a giant tease.

I'm not interested in cheating, but how do I draw that line in my male friendships?

 

[Leetah]

I think it is the "wanting more" that is going to cause you the most difficulty.

If these men are friends of yours and know you are in a monogamous relationship then you can flirt back and forth and each go home happy. People will generally respect your commitment to monogamy. It is when you are not absolutely clear in your own mind where your boundary line is that mixed signals creep in. Your have to know where your boundaries are in terms of "This feels too much". If you get to that point you smile, stop what you are doing, and go do something else for a bit. If you find you have missed noticing your boundary line as you flew over it then you definitely go do something else, perhaps something like announcing you just remembered you have to call your partner then go do it. It will not be rude to whoever you are flirting with, they can go do something else too.

Especially when you are not emotionally solid in your commiment to monogamy you are likely to "accidentally" go past your ideal boundaries, as I recall you know from experience. When you know what you want and don't want it is not to hard to only do what you want.

I am not sure where the problem with deep discussions comes in. Friends often have deep discussions.

Leetah

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Vulpis,

Are you mostly trying to figure out where to draw your boundary lines, or are you mostly trying to figure out how to exercise the willpower to stick to those boundaries?

Also, are these your boundaries that you're drawing up for yourself, or your Partner's boundaries that he is drawing up for you? If they're his boundaries, then you have to discuss it with him to find out what the boundaries are.

The wellspring of willpower is a bit mysterious; perhaps it comes from having self-confidence?

Just some thoughts.
Kevin T.

 

[Vulpis]

I think it is the "wanting more" that is going to cause you the most difficulty.

[..] It is when you are not absolutely clear in your own mind where your boundary line is that mixed signals creep in. Your have to know where your boundaries are in terms of "This feels too much".

[...] Especially when you are not emotionally solid in your commiment to monogamy you are likely to "accidentally" go past your ideal boundaries, as I recall you know from experience. When you know what you want and don't want it is not to hard to only do what you want.

I guess that's definitely the hardest part of all of this. I feel like I must be openly broadcasting my desire for an alternative relationship model to men, since they seem to know I have no idea where my own limits are. What you said makes a lot of sense.

I am not sure where the problem with deep discussions comes in. Friends often have deep discussions.

Fair enough. It's not really a problem, I just worry about catching feelings I suppose.

Are you mostly trying to figure out where to draw your boundary lines, or are you mostly trying to figure out how to exercise the willpower to stick to those boundaries?

Both. I know I've gone past them a couple times even without knowing where they are. Nothing serious, but definitely things that contribute to the "mixed signals" that must be confusing the shit out of my friends.

Also, are these your boundaries that you're drawing up for yourself, or your Partner's boundaries that he is drawing up for you?

They're my own boundaries, sort of. Partner has made it clear that he wants no part in any discussion around boundaries; I think it's because he thinks it will open the door to discussions about the possibility of sex in any form, or worse, the possibility of other loving relationships.

Because that conversation was shut down, I'm kind of forced to guess at his boundaries while fully knowing that pretty much all of my interactions with male friends make Partner uncomfortable. That leaves me feeling guilty no matter what I do or don't do, which makes crossing boundaries a lot less obvious. It a little frustrating because I can now recognize how sexually repressed I am but can't really do anything about it.

 

[kdt26417]

Sounds like you're in the unfortunate position of having to try to read his mind.

 

[JaneQSmythe]

My boundaries used to be "no kissing and no genitals" (my "rules" with MrS were "Mucus Membranes Must Not Meet" - intended to prevent STIs and pregnancy) - turns out they were not restrictive enough, cuz I ended up with Dude. (Turns out there is a shit-ton of stuff that doesn't rub up against those boundaries.)

As to where you draw the line? That depends on your agreements with your partner. My "problem" was that he trusted me absolutely but I didn't know what his threshold was (because I didn't have one beyond kissing and genitals - which worked well enough for 20+ years).

 

[Vulpis]

Yeah, playing mind reader is quickly becoming the story of my relationship with Partner, particularly in this area. Last night I came home when I said I would, but I found the futon converted into bed mode in the living room and no word from Partner, even though it was before his bedtime and he was still awake. This morning I asked if anything was wrong, and he said no. Irony is that it was a night where I just chilled quietly with friends. Zero flirtation.

At first I started with my boundaries under a naive assumption that I would only need to worry about it with Party Guy, as he was the one I kissed. Turns out I need them with virtually every straight guy I interact with for extended periods. I swear I'm like a beacon for sexual frustration, it's ridiculous.

Anyway, I'm quickly discovering that my very basic "no sex, no kissing" boundary was not enough. Who knew that touching feet could be so intimate? Then I was thinking skin to skin contact at all is too much. Now I'm discovering that clothing as a barrier actually can excite things more.

I should probably just literally not touch people. But then there's texting. Ugh.

 

[Leetah]

I know you love and wish to remain committed to your partner but I think you know this relationship cannot go on like this. Your plan to tell him that you will not be remaining in an exclusive relationship when you move for college seemed a decent plan to me but clearly your increasing self knowledge and self confidence are making it hard to sit out the remaing time.

Alot of what I think is the same as people advised you previously so you might take a look again at your original thread.

It feels to me as though you do not want to be the one to break up but if you continue this way you will just shift the burden onto your partner. Is that fair? He is clear about what relationship form he wants and it is not compatible with what you are finding you want. The fact that you like to have male friends and his partner having male friends makes him unhappy? Not a good sign for long term happiness.

If you have somewhere to stay until school starts you might consider if you should tell him now so you do not lay it on him to say "you broke our agreement. We are done"

If you can manage a few counseling sessions before you leave in September it could help you figure out how you want to handle the transition. When you get to your new town you should perhaps also check out the counseling service at your school to deal with all the big changes you are making in your life even if you are going to try to continue to squeeze yourself into someone else's boundaries.

Remember, one way or another all relationships of any kind come to an end. Longevity in itself is not the value of a relationship. The value is in the giving and recieving emotionally and intellectually, what both of you need or want to grow through that part of your life. You can continue to love and value each other as friends if you find that being partners is detrimental to one or both of you.


Leetah

 

[kdt26417]

Re (from Vulpis):

"I should probably just literally not touch people. But then there's texting. Ugh."

Sounds like the stack of rules is getting taller and taller ...

 

[Vulpis]

I was afraid of people saying this. Logistically speaking I cannot break up now; I have a cat and am financially dependent on Partner. Every time I think there's hope, he'll say something so naive.

He still thinks LDR is no big deal, that it isn't going to significantly change the relationship. Yesterday I said "LDR scares me." And he said "Why? Are you going to cheat on me?"

He keeps talking about the future like five years down the road. I still think he has no idea how important this is to me but I'm afraid to even bring it up again.

 

[Leetah]

I imagine the following is also not what you hoped to hear so feel free to ignore it as it is just my take on things.

Is your partner paying for your schooling? If so I can really feel your dilemma. Independent Life needs schooling. Schooling needs money. Money needs partner. Partner needs less independent life.

The thing is, you cannot, with honor, go on accepting part of the relationship agreement whilst breaking another part. I know you are trying to find a way to stop transgressing his boundaries but if they are not your boundaries as well it is going to be very rough going.

My main reaction is that you are just going to have to postpone schooling until you line up alternate financing. You can have an independent life, if not your ideal life, while you do that. If you postpone schooling you will feel free to have the much needed talk with your partner and see what happens. Then you can be done with either worrying about squeezing into his boundaries or taking advantage of his generosity and naivete'.

Or you can sit yourself down and have a serious talk, by yourself or with someone else, about serious agreements and what you want to do when it is hard to fulfill them. You might conclude that you can re-inhabit your old persona who was comfortable with the agreement, or you may find you are not the same person you were at 19 and can no longer keep to the deal in which case you need to renegotiate.

Those are what I see as your choices. I am likely seeing things too black and white and there is a middle course you can follow. Hopefully you or someone else will think of it.

Trying to mind read someone else for detailed rules of behavior which you know with contradict what you feel is healthy for you is not going to work. Even if you guess right you will be unhappy with both following or breaking the rules.


Leetah

 

[Ravenscroft]

>sigh<

You're juggling glass balls, getting tired of it (or maybe bored) & afraid of dropping any, so you ask us (again) how to juggle more AND how to stay motivated to keep juggling, even though you speak as though you really don't like it much, but other people tell you that you SHOULD like it & even be appreciative that you're being ALLOWED to juggle.

We tell you to stop overburdening yourself, slow down a bit, maybe stop altogether, & consider distancing yourself from people who fill your head with nonsense in order to improve their own lives with little regard for your needs.

You tell us that's not helpful.


________________

You have changed.

Something about the way you present yourself pubicly is attracting increased positive attention. Either that or you are finally learning to pick up on the cues that have always been there.

In either case, you are going to be physically removed for days at a time from a two-person groupthink you've been in for years, AND with all those glances flashing past you moment by moment.

Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon ... in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. Group members try to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation of alternative viewpoints by actively suppressing dissenting viewpoints, and by isolating themselves from outside influences.

Groupthink requires individuals to avoid raising controversial issues or alternative solutions, and there is loss of individual creativity, uniqueness and independent thinking. The dysfunctional group dynamics of the "ingroup" produces an "illusion of invulnerability" (an inflated certainty that the right decision has been made). Thus the "ingroup" significantly overrates its own abilities in decision-making and significantly underrates the abilities of its opponents (the "outgroup").

The people on this site are "outgroup."

I've studied a bit of NLP & autosuggestion (hypnosis), & it's surprisingly easy to set someone up to do something by using NOT words, negative statement. There's a strange little quirk in many people where NOT drops out of any mantra -- for instance, a subject locked onto "I don't want to be fat!!" is stuck because NOT goes away at the least little temptation of the pleasure centers. One "want" beats the other, & all that's left is "I am fat" -- which is perfectly fine by me, but works against any stated desire for weight loss

If you intend to remain monogamous for the next few YEARS (or until your bf has some sort of enlightened flash), at the very least you need to focus on "I am monogamous," with strict avoidance of NOT words. Have fantasies in the privacy of your head, & feel guilty for having them -- so long as it's ONLY about imaginary people, & ONLY set in the here-&-now rather than some misty perfect Future. This is to avoid letting your unconscious try to turn these desires into reality.

If you can't maintain that sort of focus, then either give up school OR the bf.

That's your choice. Pick one.

 

[kdt26417]

I'm confused ... is your Partner paying for your pending schooling?

 

[Vulpis]

Your points are heard, as difficult as they are to read. However I need to clarify that Partner is NOT paying for schooling. I have a savings account that can only be used for living expenses while at school. So, were we to separate now, I would have nowhere to stay.

 

[GalaGirl]

Logistically speaking I cannot break up now; I have a cat and am financially dependent on Partner.

I have a savings account that can only be used for living expenses while at school. So, were we to separate now, I would have nowhere to stay.

It's September when you leave for school right? If once you move, you are then able to be financially on your own? Ride it out til then.

Go out with friends, and enjoy your time out. Dial down the friend flirting and leave it for after you move.

Don't be adding to your stress at this time.

Every time I think there's hope, he'll say something so naive.

Hon, if he wants to believe those things? Leave him be. Look:

He still thinks LDR is no big deal, that it isn't going to significantly change the relationship. Yesterday I said "LDR scares me." And he said "Why? Are you going to cheat on me?" He keeps talking about the future like five years down the road. I still think he has no idea how important this is to me but I'm afraid to even bring it up again.

Don't correct him. Let it lie for now so you both can have some quiet while waiting til September. You guys went through enough up and down recently. A period of calm/rest wouldn't be the most horrible thing in the world.

I still think he has no idea how important this is to me but I'm afraid to even bring it up again.

You don't really need to bring it up any more. It's been discussed plenty.

After you move? Either an Open LDR will work out with him or it won't and you end it with him.

You will figure it out after September.

Focus on reducing your stress in the present. Not adding to it.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

I hope I am not prying, but where will your cat go in September when you go to school? Will your cat still live with you?

 

[Spork]

I hope I am not prying, but where will your cat go in September when you go to school? Will your cat still live with you?

I was wondering this, too.

You need to get to a point, ASAP, where you're
a.) Independent and able to support yourself with whatever resources are at hand.
b.) Not selfishly taking advantage of this guy while knowing that ultimately...you're not going to be able to give him what he wants.

It really depends on which side you look at it from. You like him enough, you don't want to hurt him...and you need him financially right now...but you know you can't be what he needs. Even if it's not fair that he is the type who requires womanstuff to fill up his needs-container and isn't seeing YOU for YOU...it feels unfair...but are you deceiving him, now? I think kind of yes.

I don't think you'll be able to be faithfully mono while at school. You should prepare yourself for life without this man. That is my opinion.

Unless you want to shut down your happiness, exploration, and desire...and honestly, I did that...managed to shut down temptation, put up walls with my male friends, etc. For a long time. About 18 years. The ONLY thing I considered adequate justification to give up my Self in that way, was my children. Kids are worth it, you find yourself doing a lot of things you wish you didn't have to, and deprived of much of your free will...for a time.

But a cat? Are you serious? I love my cat, I really do, but you should not be willing to sacrifice so much of yourself to a relationship built on falsehood (what you want, what he thinks you should be happy with)...for the well being of your CAT. And god help you if he gets you pregnant.

I don't think it is wise to put exploration of your own nature and expression of your true Self into a box and shove it in the back of a closet, just because living without the support (housing) of some dude is the only way you can see to get by. In the short term...yeah, alright. But not for long. Not long enough to get trapped into it for years.

But for what it's worth, I also do sympathize with enjoying flirting but not REALLY wanting it to go all the way to sex, with friends, and having a hard time knowing when to put up the "stop sign" without it being unkind to the friend. I have, in the last year, had many guys coming onto me. And while I am "allowed" to have sex with all of them if I want...I find that I actually don't want to sleep with all of my friends at this point in my life. I prefer to have a small group of relationships that I feel safe exploring emotions and having an ongoing connection with. One friend in particular...damn, he's tempting. And he knows I'm tempted.

So I get it. But the difference is...I'm making rules FOR MYSELF. My boundaries, they're mine. And I've got the freedom and right to change my mind later if I want. It's my sex and my life. You're doing something that leads to a codependent hell. I hope you get out before it's too late, and it gets much harder to escape.

 

[Vulpis]

I'm really not trying to be selfish by remaining in this relationship. I legitimately enjoy the time we spend together. I love our conversations, I love our life. To some extent I recognize that this is my safe bubble, and I fear stepping beyond it. But it's more that I worry about the terrible pain it will cause him if I were to end it. It's just not fair. I wish I had known this about myself years ago.

people who fill your head with nonsense

I get that you're frustrated with me, but try to refrain from insulting the people in my life who care about me. Nobody is filling my head with anything.

It's September when you leave for school right? If once you move, you are then able to be financially on your own? Ride it out til then.

Go out with friends, and enjoy your time out. Dial down the friend flirting and leave it for after you move.

Don't be adding to your stress at this time.

I think that is a good plan. I struggle not to reciprocate flirting, but I can handle it if I've gotten this far.

Will your cat still live with you?

Yes, she is coming with me.

but are you deceiving him, now? I think kind of yes.

Not intentionally. I'm walking a tightrope. I'm still committed to making this work if he decides to change his mind, however unlikely that may be. He's holding onto his glimmers of hope, and I'm holding onto mine. I have no interest in revealing the impending doom to him; I don't think he sees it and I'd rather savour the time I have left with him and hope things change for the better.

I don't think you'll be able to be faithfully mono while at school.

Probably not. But it will be much easier to end things if necessary while in LDR. Not because of the distance necessarily, but because he is really used to me taking care of him. Cooking, cleaning, nursing his illnesses, etc. I would prefer he be comfortable standing on his own before I essentially abandon him.

I feel terrible for even thinking of it.

But a cat? Are you serious?

It might be hard to understand, but I am closer to this animal than I can summarize with words. It's a very special bond. I'm not willing to dump her on Partner just so I have the opportunity to fuck around.

Also you've just explained why I'm not having children.

Not long enough to get trapped into it for years.

Yeah. Not my plan, and probably not possible anyway. Schooling is going to last at least six years, likely eight. If my desire for an alternative relationship style doesn't kill the relationship, the distance and communication issues almost certainly will.

 

[kdt26417]

I get the thing about the cat. I have a cat that I'd never want to give up.

I feel that things are going to be very different for you once you start school in September.

 

[Spork]

I apologize if my post came off a little harsh.

It's another situation that feels all too familiar.

I'm VERY glad that you are committed to not having children, at least at this time in your life. You know...sometimes, you're in a relationship, and things seem ok. One day follows another. You're not screaming at each other. You enjoy some of your time together. You feel that he's providing you with benefit and you know that you're providing him with benefit.

But in hindsight... You're letting him hope he'll have his way, though you know that ultimately you're going to do your own thing and this isn't something he's likely to be happy with. You seem conflict avoidant. I am severely conflict avoidant. So I get it. This shows not only in how you don't want to shine a harsh, bright light on the reality you're in with him right now and make both of you look at it clearly...but also how you enjoy your male friends but have a hard time when they are steering things towards "So...you'll let me have sex with you, yes?"...and you're not really sure you want it to go there at all.

I'm very familiar with these struggles.

I talk endlessly about how bitter, toxic, and awful my ex is and how bad our marriage was. But the fact is...it really was ok for most of it. We didn't fight. I took care of him, and took charge of the running of the household, the finances, etc. I managed a lot. And I MADE everything be ok. I managed to shut down my desire for others. As I said, I had a strong incentive. But I could not force myself to convincingly fake genuine desire for such a controlling man. Something in my soul, that little inner spirit that controls sexual desire, whimpered and cringed away from him. I became an apathetic lover and he knew I didn't want him.

But still, it was ok. We were...content. Ish. And the years went by. We raised our two kids to teenage years and bought a house in the suburbs.

Then one day life dealt him a situation he just couldn't cope with. He lost his mind and expected me to devote my energy entirely to holding together his fracturing sanity. I finally left. And he now is struggling with the sudden reality that he's got to manage his own life. He's alone and he's miserable.

And he wakes up crying at night, knowing that everything he thought he had for 18 years, was not real...not true...a lie. I was supposed to be his one and only, and he mine, and it wasn't a promise I was ultimately going to be able to ever keep...but did I have the guts to tell him that, over all of those years? No. Because I had kids to raise. And I was doing the right thing. And I didn't want to hurt him. And I dreaded the confrontation.

So, guilty as I am of projecting, it's this backstory that colors my response to you when I say that you're stringing him along and letting him think he can have what he longs for...when you aren't going to be able to let him have that. He is not likely to change his mind in a way that is TRUE...more to the point, he might be persuaded to change his mind, but he's not going to have a change of HEART and if he just goes along with what you want out of desperation to keep you, you're just delaying the inevitable explosion.

As for the cat, since the cat is going with you to school, I don't see any reason why you'll continue to be dependent on your boyfriend once you've gone. You're right, it would be easier to just move away and ghost out on him. It's not exactly courageous, or honest, but it's easier and I understand why you'd choose to do it that way.